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Author Topic: Magnet motor in Argentina  (Read 184981 times)

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Magnet motor in Argentina
« Reply #60 on: March 24, 2006, 08:22:16 PM »
It appears that M4 is not pulled up again until the next round which comes up after so many magnets (I guess 15 all in all). The raising is one magnet at a time.

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Re: Magnet motor in Argentina
« Reply #60 on: March 24, 2006, 08:22:16 PM »

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Magnet motor in Argentina
« Reply #61 on: March 24, 2006, 08:24:54 PM »
The whole thing is supposedly based on a very clever mechanical system of synchronized mechanical raising and lowering of the magnets.

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Magnet motor in Argentina
« Reply #62 on: March 24, 2006, 09:50:30 PM »
It appears that M4 is not pulled up again until the next round which comes up after so many magnets (I guess 15 all in all). The raising is one magnet at a time.

Hi Omnibus,
look again into the picture.
The rotor in this picture is 3 stator magnets wide, that means
after passing 3 stator magnets the rotor is gone by.
So when do you think from the description that M4 is pulled up again
inside the picture ?

I also ask myself if the force to pull up the M4 stator into the basic upper row line
is the same if the rotor faces M4 in the center, or if the rotor has already passed by....
As all other magnets are in repell mode too, it might not make a difference where
the rotor?s position just is, as all magnet field are working together to repell the rotor
and the force to pull up one stator magnet might be the same all over the circle ?

Would be interesting, if someone could simulate this with FEMM simulation program to see,
how big the forces really are...

Also from his first model with the wood frame it seems, that he just tilts (turns) also
the stator magnets by about 45 degrees and not just pushes them up only ?

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Re: Magnet motor in Argentina
« Reply #62 on: March 24, 2006, 09:50:30 PM »
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Offline _GonZo_

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Re: Magnet motor in Argentina
« Reply #63 on: March 24, 2006, 10:07:24 PM »
After reading in some other forums in spanish and looking at his pictures I have now more clear how it works "if it works"

It is very very simple so simple that may work, actually he says it does not matter much if the magnes are equals or not they just have to be about the same and even does not mater if the magnets move up more or less due diferences betwen them.

Here is how it goes:

The external circle are a number of magnets all of them facing N in
The Rotor (he calls it rotor arm) are a number of magnet facing N out

The magnes in the outside can move up away from the ones in the rotor, but they are forced to be in the down position with a spring that makes a stronger force than the repulsion of the rotor magnets.

The rotor has a wheel that moves together with the rotor and pushes up one magnet a time, if you look at the picture atached you can see the ramps that wheel pushes while turnig and lifts one magnet at each time.

For what he says the force need to push up this one magnet is smaller than the force created by the repulsing magnets. So it turns and move next magnet up and the one that was lifted before goes down again (becasuse of the spring) and the cicle continues...

Very simple yes...


Offline _GonZo_

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Re: Magnet motor in Argentina
« Reply #64 on: March 24, 2006, 10:19:18 PM »
Sorry forgot to attach the picture were you can see the ramps that makes the magnets to go up when the wheel passes under them.

Now I am making calculations, lets see what comes out.

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Re: Magnet motor in Argentina
« Reply #64 on: March 24, 2006, 10:19:18 PM »
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Offline _GonZo_

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Re: Magnet motor in Argentina
« Reply #65 on: March 24, 2006, 10:45:20 PM »
Well calculations done...? :-[ it does not work.

Why:

Let me see if I can explain it correctly.
If all trhe magnest were down the motor will not move OK
If one magnet is moved up then it will move. The force that creates that movement is equal to the repulsion force of that magnet we have moved up.
Then the rotor in that movement have to move up the next magnet, but there is an spring that keep it down and the force of that spring to keep it down is the same or bigger than the repulsion force of that magnet.

So the rotor when it turns have to make the work of lifting one magnet that is compresed down with the same force as the rotor is geting from the other magnets, so no move will hapen as there is looses in earth systems...? :(

Hope it is clear.


Offline Jdo300

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Re: Magnet motor in Argentina
« Reply #66 on: March 25, 2006, 12:30:58 AM »
Hello All,

If I may put my two cents worth in; I have been contemplating the operation of this motor and thanks to _GonZo_ for clearing up the ideas behind how it runs. Actually, I think there may be one small factor you are leaving out. When all the Stator magnets are down, the entire system is in equilibrium, yes, however, when one of the stator magnets are displaced, you are essentially having the combined repulsive force of all the other magnets pushing the rotor out, not just one of the magnets. Check out the diagram I made below. How I picture it is like this:

1. While the motor is in balance, the stator magnets behave as one giant radially magnetized ring magnet with the North Pole facing in.

2. Once a piece of this ?ring? is removed the fields are unbalanced and you have essentially one large curved magnet with its north pole facing in. We all know from playing with magnets that when you repel two magnets against each other, the side of the magnet that the other magnet is closest to will be the direction it is repelled in (sorry for the bad description, refer to my duiagram). In other words, look at the rotor as being a single magnet that is on one end of this giant, curved, North Pole magnet.

3. Because the rotor is close to the break in the giant magnet, it is repelled towards that break, but not just by its neighboring magnet, but by the combined field strength of all the stator magnets since they will behave more or less like one single magnet.

So it is very possible that the combined force of the other stator magnets pushing the rotor may be enough to overcome the resistance force needed to lift the one stator magnet as the cycle continues. This could be possuble if the springs used to hold the magnets down are tensined just enough to balance out the magnetic force plus a tiny bit more. That way, you really wouldn't need much force to move the magnets.... It makes me think of Butch LaFonte's balance fixture. When big forces are balanced, it doesn't take much to unbalance them.

Again, just my two cents  :)

God Bless,
Jason O

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Re: Magnet motor in Argentina
« Reply #66 on: March 25, 2006, 12:30:58 AM »
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Offline _GonZo_

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Re: Magnet motor in Argentina
« Reply #67 on: March 25, 2006, 12:50:38 AM »
I understand perfectly what you mean, and I understand that it may be dificult to understand, let me make you some questions:

In a ring of lets say 10 magnets and each one is aplyin a force to the rotor of 1N/m when you take out one of them, how much force is aplied then to the rotor?

And in order to keep one magnet in its position how much reaction force you need to aply if it is repeled 1N/m?

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Magnet motor in Argentina
« Reply #68 on: March 25, 2006, 01:08:48 AM »
Stefan, the three-magnet rotor is being pushed from the position it has in the picture to the left, away form magnets M1, M2 and M3 (M4 up). As the rotor turns towards the position of M4, the magnet M4 is being dropped while the magnet M5 is being raised.

The presumption is that the force that drives the rotor away from M1, M2 and M3 is so strong that it not only moves the rotor and overcomes all friction but is also enough to lift magnet M5.

There is one more problem, though ? the opposition to the motion of the rotor by the falling M4. While M5 may be slowly upped so it won?t oppose the further motion when the rotor gets in the position as in the picture (but this time against M2, M3 and M4), the magnet M4 has to go down somewhat suddenly at the right moment. If M4 goes down too soon it may oppose the motion efficiently and the rotor will stop.

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Re: Magnet motor in Argentina
« Reply #68 on: March 25, 2006, 01:08:48 AM »
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Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Magnet motor in Argentina
« Reply #69 on: March 25, 2006, 01:10:58 AM »
Hi Guys,
this motor is really puzzling me !
I think it could work !
The springs are very important !
I think here are 2 systems at work each superimposing !

1. Imagine no magnets at all inside this motor, but springs being there
to push down the stator versus the rotor. ( again no magnets inside rotor and stator)
Now, if we move the rotor Made of a triangular ramp up and down) one stator further,
we lift M5 and M4 goes down.
That means we have to apply the same force for lifting M5 as M4 gives us back
via its spring by pushing the rotor to the next position.

Imagine a triangular lifting and pushing down ramp rotor setup without magnets.

To push up M5 (actually moving it out of the stator rowline)
needs the same energy as the rotor gets from M4 when the spring
of M4 pushes the downramp part of the rotor down. ( M4 aligning again with the stator rowline)


Thus the forces are in equilibrium and only the mechanical losses prevent the rotor to move
on after a few cycles, when you give the rotor a spin. But without mechanical losses
(spring and friction losses) the rotor would move on indefinately....
So you see, this part of the system is there and only has small mechanical losses.

2. Now the second parts with the magnets come into play !
As Jason pointed already out, the whole stator stack acts as a big magnet
creating a very big force versus the rotor magnet, so it is easy to push the magnet
with a factor 15:3 in the case of the Torbay drawing into the clockwise direction.
So this 15:3 force just must be a bit ?bigger than the initial uplift spring force
plus the mechanical losses Q.
Also the rotor gets also back the stored spring energy of the spring of M4,
it will propelled even further more.

So I think there is just a mechanical setup required of the right spring force
constants and the right number of stator versus rotor magnets.

I think this motor is pretty genuine, but I also think the presented prototypes
in the pictures are not able to generate 2000 Watts, maybe 10 to 100 Watts,
but not more when you look at the size of the generator and the lamp connected....

But with a bigger size I guess one could get into the KiloWatts range !

Regards, Stefan.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2006, 01:32:08 AM by hartiberlin »

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Magnet motor in Argentina
« Reply #70 on: March 25, 2006, 01:23:38 AM »
I agree, this is a very clever idea and if properly implemented it may work. I'll be amazed if it won't. Unless, we're overlooking something. Of course, the final proof will be to see the device on a table spinning by itself, untouched.

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Re: Magnet motor in Argentina
« Reply #70 on: March 25, 2006, 01:23:38 AM »
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Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Magnet motor in Argentina
« Reply #71 on: March 25, 2006, 02:21:22 AM »
I again tried to enhance the picture from the last prototype and here are
the results in 800x600 size attached to this message
( You must be logged into the forum to see them)

You can clearly see, that the attached generator at the top looks
like a DC motor working as an DC generator, geared up in speed
from the Torbay motor,
driving a halogen spot light, probably a 10 to 50 Watts halogen
light spot lamp.

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Magnet motor in Argentina
« Reply #72 on: March 25, 2006, 02:23:55 AM »
Here is the motor-generator combination driving the
probably halogen spot lamp.

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Magnet motor in Argentina
« Reply #73 on: March 25, 2006, 03:02:40 AM »
If this can be demonstrated then that would be it. Period. End of story. I'm trying to get hold of Torbay, even visit him but still am getting nowhere. The e-mails I sent to two of the Argentinean newspapers covering the invention haven't been answered yet. Probably because of the national hiloday in Argentina. Will try Monday again. I'm also eagerly waiting for Wesley Snyder's demo. If he can show an independently running motor (without holding it in his hands) that'll do it too. Scott Clarke promised to show his motor as well. Not to speak of Mike Brady.

Offline Jdo300

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Re: Magnet motor in Argentina
« Reply #74 on: March 25, 2006, 05:07:02 AM »
Hi all,

Here?s two more cents worth of contemplations. I was looking at the photos of Torbay?s wooden prototype and I was trying to see how he might have the magnet(s) in his wooden rotor oriented. If you look at the picture, it looks like just one single ceramic disk magnet:

(http://club.telepolis.com/LICYTA/ima/p9.jpg)

I drew up another diagram showing my idea of how it could work in the simplest form. I also simulated this diagram and found that the rotor responds with the most torque with the stator magnet directly on the right is moved. It is obvious to me now that this mechanism works? I wonder if there is a better way to do this though?

God Bless,
Jason O

 

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