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Solid States Devices => Joule Thief => Topic started by: unzapped on January 10, 2010, 10:44:32 PM

Title: Peltier Candle Powered JT
Post by: unzapped on January 10, 2010, 10:44:32 PM
I have had a weekend of experimentation... Mostly failures with a little success at the end.

I am trying to develop a replicateable petier(seebeck) candle powered JT circuit. I can get it to work alright however I would really like to get my hands on a really low input transistor ( currently using 3904). My lights do not come on until .7 volts now. This takes a few minutes.

Also I would like to power a small motor fan for the heat sink. From this same circuit.

Work flow goes like this...

light candle
adjust height under peltier
light comes on
fan kicks in
light gets brighter
no input except the peltier/candle

I have absolutely no idea how this circuit will look except that I am using the jeanna light circuit to power the lights.

Maybe even integrate and ultra cap as long as I can recharge it from the peltier.

ANY help is much appreciated.

Thanks
UZ





Title: Re: Peltier Candle Powered JT
Post by: pese on January 11, 2010, 01:00:14 AM
I have had a weekend of experimentation... Mostly failures with a little success at the end.

I am trying to develop a replicateable petier(seebeck) candle powered JT circuit. I can get it to work alright however I would really like to get my hands on a really low input transistor ( currently using 3904). My lights do not come on until .7 volts now. This takes a few minutes.

Also I would like to power a small motor fan for the heat sink. From this same circuit.

Work flow goes like this...

light candle
adjust height under peltier
light comes on
fan kicks in
light gets brighter
no input except the peltier/candle

I have absolutely no idea how this circuit will look except that I am using the jeanna light circuit to power the lights.

Maybe even integrate and ultra cap as long as I can recharge it from the peltier.

ANY help is much appreciated.

Thanks
UZ

use for low Vce(at) an germanium transistor
OR an Silicon Type from FERRANTI
It is only 1 silicon transistor (in wold) that work
on voltages below 0,7volts properly.
perhaps i find out the type numeber if need..
prferred (not so hard to find) Germanium pnp.
Pese
Title: Re: Peltier Candle Powered JT
Post by: resonanceman on January 11, 2010, 03:45:48 AM
I have had a weekend of experimentation... Mostly failures with a little success at the end.

I am trying to develop a replicateable petier(seebeck) candle powered JT circuit. I can get it to work alright however I would really like to get my hands on a really low input transistor ( currently using 3904). My lights do not come on until .7 volts now. This takes a few minutes.

Also I would like to power a small motor fan for the heat sink. From this same circuit.

Work flow goes like this...

light candle
adjust height under peltier
light comes on
fan kicks in
light gets brighter
no input except the peltier/candle

I have absolutely no idea how this circuit will look except that I am using the jeanna light circuit to power the lights.

Maybe even integrate and ultra cap as long as I can recharge it from the peltier.

ANY help is much appreciated.

Thanks
UZ

Unzapped

I can't help you with the electronics ......many others here have  alot more experience  than I have.

I do  have a few suggestions though

A peltier device is not tthat efficient
I have heard that they are only 5 or 6 % efficient.

It might  be easier to get it working well  if you used  a small sterling engine....80% efficiency is not  uncommon.
Of course  it would need a generator ..... I think  even with the losses  of the generator  you would come out  ahead with the sterling.

I also think that if you are only using one candle .......a fan is overkill
a heatsink made for a CPU should  handle the heat  easly with no fan

If you wanted to use more heat........ I think I would try adding a cooling tower  kind of like a nuclear reactor .....I think I would  try a clear plastic tube about 12 to 18 inches high
......slightly narrower  at the top

gary
Title: Re: Peltier Candle Powered JT
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 11, 2010, 07:29:11 AM
I agree about the germanium transistor.  I also agree totally with Gary that the peltier is not the way to go in this application.  You are burning up the wick and the wax to produce so little output.  Why not just use dead batteries, which are free, and be done with it?  If you can't do that, build an EER and run the JT for free.

The only way this would make sense to me is if you already have the heat, for free.  Like hot water heaters that you are already paying for. (hook it to the pipe that is always hot anyway)  There are just too many more efficient ways to run a JT that I would do long before this option.

Now, if you get your candles for free, then this would change the equation a little bit but still, as Gary said, then the Sterling would be the way to go.

Try it yourself and see.  None of us here know everything.  Peltier junctions are a neat thing to experiment with anyway so enjoy yourself, and let us know how it goes.

Bill
Title: Re: Peltier Candle Powered JT
Post by: pese on January 11, 2010, 01:31:45 PM
you cane make with cascadin arry also ANY needed voltage.
GRUNDIG have produced for Arabia-export. an petrol-
lampe that was to use with black/whith TV Sets that consumed 220V at abiut 200 watts.
only peltiers-ekements made from some hundred point contacted wires, surrounding  the center petrol-flame.
GP
So zts not need to use any inerters for higher voltages.
Title: Re: Peltier Candle Powered JT
Post by: unzapped on January 11, 2010, 04:46:40 PM
Thank you all for your replies.
@pirate I am not sure what an EER is atm.
I am looking to build a small indoor emergency power generator to run leds, a small radio and possibly charge some small devices.

In the event of a total power outage possibly for extended periods of time. The only thing readily avalable may be fire. aka candles, etc...

I want to build the "coleman lantern" of the 21st century.

I have been recently researching thermopiles, as micro piles are what peltiers are made of...
Seems like a lost science almost.

@pese I have seem the lantern you speak of... but I do not know what cascadin arrays are... do you have a link for some further explaination?

This must be easy to do, I have also thought about a piezo electric generator using hot oil as pressure to generate power... this also seems possible...

I would love to run this from a stirling, but I am afraid of the cost of each unit... target end price... under 200$

Thanks
Uz
Title: Re: Peltier Candle Powered JT
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 11, 2010, 07:13:15 PM
EER=Earth Energy Receiver.  That is what we are now calling the Earth Battery as it is not a battery at all.  Check out my tube videos where I run 400 leds, a 48" floro tube, and a Bedini motor from my EER for free.  (different videos, not all at the same time)

Also check out Lasersaber's EER videos, he has surpassed my results to date.

Bill
Title: Re: Peltier Candle Powered JT
Post by: resonanceman on January 12, 2010, 04:13:53 AM


I want to build the "coleman lantern" of the 21st century.






Unzapped

That may still be possible

What I do not understand   is why you want to use 18th century technology  to power  your 21st century idea

Have you  read anything  about Gadgetmals  try for the OU prize ?
Even if  he does not  win the prize.......his device lights  a LED as part of it running ....... a LED that will run for years at least

It is taking me  longer on my Jeanna light  than I had hoped.
I am trying to add some feedback  to make it  run longer..........hopefully MUCH longer

gary
Title: Re: Peltier Candle Powered JT
Post by: Magluvin on January 12, 2010, 04:57:38 AM
Well if you want to use candle power, I would make a tube enclosure and a heat sink for the hot side of the peltier and another for the cold side. If you use the air rise from the flame, that cool air can pull a draft across the cold side and the area above the flame can be the hot side. The use of the cold updraft will help to get rid of the heat developed on the cold side. If you didnt take advantage of the cold draft, the efficiency of the peltier will be less. It would be interesting to see what the smallest flame would produce. And Up the tube, how many peltiers can be heated? =]

Mags
Title: Re: Peltier Candle Powered JT
Post by: unzapped on January 12, 2010, 04:24:43 PM
I think you are all right. I am currently working on a jeanna circuit.. JT with secondary... trying to do some charging as well. This may be the way to go...

The peltier thing is just too inefficient, I can light a bulb no problem. But the heat does saturate the system eventually and it just doesn't produce enough power. Exactly barely enough to run the transistor.

I even thought about building my own pile with antimony and bizmuth... until I found out how much it was to buy the wire.

I would LOVE to add a stiriling this would just be too cool... however cost is an issue. Unless I could produce a cheap stirling that didn't look like a pos.

I am not giving up just yet... but I am looking in other directions.

Jason
Title: Re: Peltier Candle Powered JT
Post by: xee2 on January 12, 2010, 08:13:57 PM
@ unzapped

This is the lowest voltage JT I have made.

Title: Re: Peltier Candle Powered JT
Post by: WilbyInebriated on January 14, 2010, 08:42:55 PM
In the event of a total power outage possibly for extended periods of time. The only thing readily avalable may be fire. aka candles, etc...

I want to build the "coleman lantern" of the 21st century.

I have been recently researching thermopiles, as micro piles are what peltiers are made of...
Seems like a lost science almost.
someone beat you to it.
http://www.navitron.org.uk/product_detail.php?proID=18&catID=67

TEG's are great fun, if you're lucky you can find an old one used to power old tube radios and the like from a kerosene lantern, i love mine... they put out 2, 9, 90, 120 volts at various amperages. see this link, about halfway down the page. http://www.kelk.co.jp/english/useful/netsuden3.html
modern thermopiles are usually not so good with higher temperatures.

forget the candle and get some strontium-90 ;)

edit: more info on the TEG lantern. the page the navitron link came from.
http://www.audiodesignline.com/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=175700512
Title: Re: Peltier Candle Powered JT
Post by: unzapped on January 14, 2010, 09:43:06 PM
Yes I have seen all of those! Very cool stuff...the first one is ok. Anyway I think I am gonna play with a laminar flow sterling for power gen. I ordered a piston and cylinder from airpot.com. Cant wait to see what comes of it.
Title: Re: Peltier Candle Powered JT
Post by: WilbyInebriated on January 14, 2010, 09:58:49 PM
Yes I have seen all of those! Very cool stuff...the first one is ok. Anyway I think I am gonna play with a laminar flow sterling for power gen. I ordered a piston and cylinder from airpot.com. Cant wait to see what comes of it.
sweet. stirling engines are fun stuff. hope you show us what comes of yours.
Title: Re: Peltier Candle Powered JT
Post by: unzapped on January 14, 2010, 10:03:45 PM
Oh I will!!! I cant wait to share some more... I have been on this kick of just building stuff... Ever since I quit smoking... Hmmm. Maybe smoking makes you stupid... I probably will only share that which is repeatable... The rest is boring failure after failure
Title: Re: Peltier Candle Powered JT
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 14, 2010, 10:57:44 PM
Hey, failure is how we discover what does NOT work...equally important to finding what DOES work.

If I made a Youtube video of my failures, it would be way too large a file to upload.

Bill
Title: Re: Peltier Candle Powered JT
Post by: resonanceman on January 19, 2010, 04:59:24 AM
Yes I have seen all of those! Very cool stuff...the first one is ok. Anyway I think I am gonna play with a laminar flow sterling for power gen. I ordered a piston and cylinder from airpot.com. Cant wait to see what comes of it.

Unzapped

Looks like some really nice cylinders  at that site.
I have never heard  of a laminar flow sterling.
Can you tell me a  little more about it?

I can't imagine  how you would  make  a sterling with just one cylinder .......unless  you are using it for the smaller piston  on  a displacment type stering


gary
Title: Re: Peltier Candle Powered JT
Post by: unzapped on January 19, 2010, 02:25:48 PM
Gary,
See here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-d8TGYanAtk

I am actually engineering this to be sold as a kit I think... Cuz i cant find one for less than $99... lol

These are really cool. Not sure it is truly laminar flow...maybe more of a heat engine... Some call it thermoacoustic...

UZ
Title: Re: Peltier Candle Powered JT
Post by: resonanceman on January 19, 2010, 06:18:33 PM
Gary,
See here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-d8TGYanAtk

I am actually engineering this to be sold as a kit I think... Cuz i cant find one for less than $99... lol

These are really cool. Not sure it is truly laminar flow...maybe more of a heat engine... Some call it thermoacoustic...




UZ

Unzapped

Thermocaustic is  something I have never heard of before......It makes  sense though.
I was trying  to see how  it could be a sterling but not  understanding it.
To me the name thermocaustic  seems to be seems to be saying that  something is being  burnt  .....
If it is burning something....that something will have to be replaced.

If I was  you  I would go with a simple  sterling..........burning anything is a dirty process......... a sterling  would run  clean for its entire life.

Do  you understand how  sterlings work?
If  you don't I can  explain it ....... at first  they are hard to understand........but they are probably  the most simple most elegant engine ever made.

gary
Title: Re: Peltier Candle Powered JT
Post by: resonanceman on January 19, 2010, 07:19:16 PM


I am actually engineering this to be sold as a kit I think... Cuz i cant find one for less than $99... lol





Unzapped

Do  you have the resources to have some parts made up?

Most of my background is with simple machines.......I know nothing  about electronics.,,,,,,,except  what I have learned on this thread.

gary

Title: Re: Peltier Candle Powered JT
Post by: unzapped on January 19, 2010, 08:52:13 PM
Gary thank you! I am very clear on the stirling process... and in fact I believe that a laminar flow is a stirling process... the two cylinders hot\cold are inline but the single piston actuates both airflows...

When the piston draws out warm air flows the cool side to be cooled, when then it gets compressed back to the hot side to be warmed back up... this is a true stirling cycle in its most basic form IMO.

Feel free to correct me if I am wrong...

I do not have resources the aluminum spec'd parts, however once I get the CAD done I will forward you the specs... I am more than happy to pay someone here for the cnc stuff. Nothing would make me happier...

I will also be learning some more about electronics... as I will need a circuit board engineered as well... If you can think of someone... point them here!!! :)

Thanks!
UZ