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Author Topic: Lifters: Anti-gravity or simply ION WIND?  (Read 43491 times)

Offline Phil

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Lifters: Anti-gravity or simply ION WIND?
« on: April 06, 2005, 06:35:16 PM »
I read that NASA tested a lifter in a vacuum and when it was pumped down to near-earth (about 60 miles altitude) it no longer flew. As the vacuum was bled off the lifter began flying again.. that would seem to prove that the lifter is a capacitor and was creating ion wind. In 1980 I built a negative ion generator using a car coil and a pulse-circuit to fire it at high frequency, off of the secondary I placed a high power diode and soldered a large sewing needle to this. When in use you could feel the ion wind up to about 2 feet high. If you held a paper above it it would "float" on the wind. In the dark you could see a nice blue glow coming off of the tip of the needle. Even at the time I told my wife if I made a light balsa-wood and paper 'vehicle' and used threads to keep it over the ion generator I could make people think I built an 'anti-gravity machine.....
I think LIFTERS are interesting but doesn't belong in antigravity catagory anymore more than a helicopter.   :-\

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Offline Kysmett

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Re: Lifters: Anti-gravity or simply ION WIND?
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2005, 07:16:33 PM »
This is all well and good, and I agree.  I think the application should be developed, however, as an atmospheric means of propulsion, if possible.  Looking at Tesla's flying machine(or what is available on it) it seems that he intended to use these same principles for direction control, coupled perhaps with a different means of maintaining altitude.

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Lifters: Anti-gravity or simply ION WIND?
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2005, 10:27:27 PM »
Yes, the Lifters seem to have as the main propulsion the ion wind effect, but
some bigger units might also have somekind of Bielfeld-Brown effect.
This effect is a few ranges more weak, so it is hard to measure.

But I agree, this should be developed as a new helicopter replacement.

Regards, Stefan.

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Re: Lifters: Anti-gravity or simply ION WIND?
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2005, 10:27:27 PM »
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Offline Sojourner

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Re: Lifters: Anti-gravity or simply ION WIND?
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2005, 01:02:20 AM »
The tests I saw using the vacuum held an asymetrical capacitor within a confined area in those vacuums. On some, the walls of the vacuum chambers were nearly touching the test lifter/model.

The problem I see with that is that capacitance changes and so does the effect when other objects and/or conductive/obstructive materials are in the vicinity of lifter operation.  It's all too easy to just say. "when we pumped out the air, it stopped working".

No doubt lifter technology uses ion wind for thrust, but after toying with them a while I think there is more to it. The 'wind' just isn't enough.

I have a pre-theory, you might call it, in that the lifter gets thrust not only from directional speed of ions spittng from the anode, but that charged air within the magnetic field of the lifter becomes a sort of lace-work in the air and the speeding ions punch a hole through this lacework while speeding towards the cathode and they create tiny vortexes. These tiny vortexes help push up the lifter from the very sides of the cathode and they also, you might notice, prevent the ions from reaching and sticking to the cathode. On one side of these horizontal vortexes the friction "climbs the air" lacework. On the other side of the vortices, the friction rub against the cathode, pushing it in an upward direction.

On top of this, it is hard to think that other helping causes related to anti-gravity are not at work here. Any time you have a magnetic field, vortices and ions all in the same place, it's quite early to just say 'it's all wind'.

Truth is, NO ONE knows what all is involved in making a lifter work. We just have to leave it at that for now.

SOj
Soj
« Last Edit: April 08, 2005, 11:03:02 PM by Sojourner »

Offline Kysmett

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Re: Lifters: Anti-gravity or simply ION WIND?
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2005, 03:02:15 PM »
There has to be a way of measuring the thrust generated by the ion wind and subtract that from the tension on the wires that hold the lifter down.  If there is a significant difference, then yes you are right, there is another factor involved.

Can the ions be measured with a small annemmommeter (I could never spell that) or wind meter.  Or perhaps you could put a lifter on the scale, on short(like one inch) guy wires.  Then as it lifts off, if the ion wind is the main propellent, the thrust will push down on the scale, and you should either have an increase in weight, or no real net change.  Figure the forces involved, subtract the guy wire tension (vectorially of course) and you should end up with a number that represents the ACTUAL ammount of unknown force present.  Divide that by the perimeter of the lifter, and you get an overall unknown thrust per unit of lenght.

that might put this ion wind thing to bed once and for all.

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Re: Lifters: Anti-gravity or simply ION WIND?
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2005, 03:02:15 PM »
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Offline iceweller

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Re: Lifters: Anti-gravity or simply ION WIND?
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2005, 07:10:31 PM »
  Additionally, using a pulsed power supply clearly shows increased thrust; you get better thrust with lower peak voltage than using "pure DC" at a higher voltage - this leaves room for thought. On a further note, the tests that I have seen conducted in vacuum used "Pure ripple free" DC. I agree that with a clean DC voltage most of the lift is generated by "ionic chain reaction" but not in the case of a pulsed DC. It is not only the voltage that counts - a critical aspect is the frequency and the type ringing that occurs with the lifter-PSU circuit (an LC).

   I have asked this before, but my posts never got through on the lifter group on the Naudin list so I will try again. I don't know if anyone knows, but this design apparently was replicated for the first time by some Michigan high school students along with their professor and presented it at the science school expo. It performed so incredibly that it called the attention of the "observers" and the project was "modified". I have heard that the design initially was not really as it is presented now by Ventura or Naudin. I have asked if anyone else had any information about this but never heard any feedback so if anyone has heard or has any information, please post it.

   Regards

Offline Phil

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Re: Lifters: Anti-gravity or simply ION WIND?
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2005, 06:54:37 PM »
Thanks for all the insightful replies and I appreciate the fact that the people on this site doesn't automatically "flame" someone for bringing up a sensitive (to some lifter experts) issue.
I agree there seems to be a lot more than meets the eye (or brain ;D) on this technology and your replies really got me to thinking, as an example while experimenting with my ?ION MACHINE? I noticed that if I moved my hand over the top (I?ll call it the ion-charge) I could ?trace? the shape of the field above the needle. I was reading some notes I jotted down at the time and I wrote that the ion ?wind? felt like it was spherical? almost like a ball of unseen force above my generator (it was quite amusing and felt cool on the hand and face like there was something there but not really ?blowing? like a mechanical fan would create.
As food for thought, perhaps it should be called an ?ION FIELD? instead of ION ?WIND? since it seems more like a ball of energy than a ?blowing? effect..? if that being the case maybe the lightweight lifters are in fact sitting on this ?ball?? and if there is any truth to this theory just maybe (if they indeed won?t work in a vacuum) they require the atmosphere as some part of the required equation to work?
I might seem to be contradicting myself in comparison to my first post but I guess the reason we have forums like this is to hear what everyone has to say and then start the thinking process all over again.

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Re: Lifters: Anti-gravity or simply ION WIND?
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2005, 06:54:37 PM »
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Offline Kysmett

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Re: Lifters: Anti-gravity or simply ION WIND?
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2005, 07:51:29 PM »
Do you have a smaller version than the one you posted?  could you put it on a scale?  or better yet, operate the lifter, tare out the scale and then slide it under.  Any change in the reading will indicate a downward force.  Perhaps not ion wind, maybe the force of this sphere you mention.  In anycase, it would be cool to see if there is a measurable effect beneath it.

Offline TechStuf

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Re: Lifters: Anti-gravity or simply ION WIND?
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2005, 08:19:36 PM »
Lifters make use of the exact same principle in all of those sharper image "ionic breeze" air purifier units, and although the effect can be made to do useful work....the real performer will force couple gravity or the Aether directly. ?This, I believe, is what was accomplished via the Kowsky-Frost discovery.

At the center of 'establishment science' resistance to the idea of Aether....is a rather robust 'misdirection engine'. ?It is known that the Apollo astronauts could not see stars outside either the moon or earth's gravity field. ?The warping of Einstein's 'space time' or Aether, accounts for a giant lens which gathers such light enabling us to resolve it. ?How can one navigate such an environment?  If such craft were able to generate their own fields....then they carry their lens with them!

It was foretold that man would obtain the knowledge to traverse the heavens....seeking to find the very throne of GOD himself. ?Knowing as we do, in our fringe areas of study, that extraterrestrial forces are hard at work here.....One would do well to ascertain for himself, which forces make use of him.

And after having made up his mind, discern which activities are the most important at this time.....re-inventing the wheel, so to speak......or actively aligning himself with those powers he most respects and seeking to ascertain His will and then do it.

Peace,

TS out
« Last Edit: April 08, 2005, 08:52:07 PM by TechStuf »

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Re: Lifters: Anti-gravity or simply ION WIND?
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2005, 08:19:36 PM »
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Offline Sojourner

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Re: Lifters: Anti-gravity or simply ION WIND?
« Reply #9 on: April 08, 2005, 11:08:14 PM »
This is the very thing I am talking about when referring to 'lace-work'.

Thanks for all the insightful replies and I appreciate the fact that the people on this site doesn't automatically "flame" someone for bringing up a sensitive (to some lifter experts) issue.
I agree there seems to be a lot more than meets the eye (or brain ;D) on this technology and your replies really got me to thinking, as an example while experimenting with my ?ION MACHINE? I noticed that if I moved my hand over the top (I?ll call it the ion-charge) I could ?trace? the shape of the field above the needle. I was reading some notes I jotted down at the time and I wrote that the ion ?wind? felt like it was spherical? almost like a ball of unseen force above my generator (it was quite amusing and felt cool on the hand and face like there was something there but not really ?blowing? like a mechanical fan would create.
As food for thought, perhaps it should be called an ?ION FIELD? instead of ION ?WIND? since it seems more like a ball of energy than a ?blowing? effect..  if that being the case maybe the lightweight lifters are in fact sitting on this ?ball?? and if there is any truth to this theory just maybe (if they indeed won?t work in a vacuum) they require the atmosphere as some part of the required equation to work?
I might seem to be contradicting myself in comparison to my first post but I guess the reason we have forums like this is to hear what everyone has to say and then start the thinking process all over again.


Offline Phil

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Re: Lifters: Anti-gravity or simply ION WIND?
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2005, 03:35:01 AM »
Lace? Whatever are you referring to? I'm a manly man with Harley boots, a beard, leather jacket and I like purdy gurls!!? ?;D? ?Oh, maybe you meant something else :o

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Re: Lifters: Anti-gravity or simply ION WIND?
« Reply #10 on: April 09, 2005, 03:35:01 AM »
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Offline Sojourner

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Re: Lifters: Anti-gravity or simply ION WIND?
« Reply #11 on: April 09, 2005, 11:02:42 PM »
What? No doily on the seat?  :P

Lace? Whatever are you referring to? I'm a manly man with Harley boots, a beard, leather jacket and I like purdy gurls!!   ;D   Oh, maybe you meant something else :o

Offline Phil

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Re: Lifters: Anti-gravity or simply ION WIND?
« Reply #12 on: April 11, 2005, 07:04:01 PM »
Hmmm... no doily but I do STAND! Well, I cried when I watched "Sleepless in Seattle" but does that count?  :P

Offline raburgeson

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Re: Lifters: Anti-gravity or simply ION WIND?
« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2005, 12:22:57 PM »
Watch out for misinformation from government tests, I don't have the ability to create the vaccuum
they can but if you are looking for the truth from USA then I got a nice bridge to sell you. Remember
they are the same people that tested this , declared it doesn't work, and labled it top secret.

They tested this originaly at a fraction of the required voltage, and were fully aware of the fact, and
they are against developement of this technology because it does not show up on radar.  Poor
them.

That would ruin the nice data base they have built for every man woman and child, and they wouldn't know
exactly where everyone is. Screw them I believe T.T. Brown he tested this in France in a vaccuum in a
government facility and they could afford to produce a powerful vaccuum there.

Offline Sojourner

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Re: Lifters: Anti-gravity or simply ION WIND?
« Reply #14 on: April 20, 2005, 11:16:54 AM »
I would have to. I have never seen it and have to take your word as a gentleman and a biker.

;-)

Soj

Hmmm... no doily but I do STAND! Well, I cried when I watched "Sleepless in Seattle" but does that count?  :P

 

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