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Author Topic: Agentgates´s TPU setup with strange wavehill hump  (Read 272884 times)

Offline agentgates

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Re: Agentgates´s TPU setup with strange wavehill hump
« Reply #60 on: January 06, 2010, 02:57:49 PM »
Thanks for responding. In connecting two of the primaries I was thinking of increasing output. Anyway have you tried the primary wrapped over the secondary?

Yes, I've got a coil like that somewhere. It shouldn't make difference in the operation. I just put the secondary around the primary as the latter is fixed for now. I ocassionally removed the secondary or put more and different wires on it to find any difference. So IMHO it doesn't matter which one is above until the primary wires inside are far from the secondary.

as to the right handed coil versus left handed, I am speaking to the direction in which you wind the coil, for instance look at your right hand palm facing down fingers away and relaxed, the thumb indicates the direction you wind in and the fingers indicate the wire direction when looping over the form. So in a right handed coil the wire startsby going over the top and to the left.

Thanks for the explanation. Yes the primary is left handed.

I also noticed that the secondary is wound in a right handed manner (this is what the picture shows for the one you made for Stephen I think

http://www.samsonium.org/sites/default/files/P1030244.JPG

Yes, this is what I made for Stefan but this is bad. The plastic is to thich so the primary and secondary wires are too far, also they ar not hovering inside due to the ~80 degrees angle between them. If you decrease the angle they will hover inside like a cobweb in the corner.

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Offline agentgates

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Re: Agentgates´s TPU setup with strange wavehill hump
« Reply #61 on: January 06, 2010, 03:15:18 PM »
@gotoluc, minde4000

Thanks to both of you. I'll be on it in the next couple of days to remove the heavy and expensive switching devices and replace them to cheaper ordinary ones those more people will be able to replicate it.

@zerotensor

None of them are my own devices. They are independent replicas. I just uploaded them onto my channel. Possibly some of them don't even work.

I will upload my own videos and will post the links here and change the description on those videos are not mine.

Offline agentgates

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Re: Agentgates´s TPU setup with strange wavehill hump
« Reply #62 on: January 06, 2010, 03:18:40 PM »
Hmm,
I will ask him by email,
if it is really his channel.
Maybe he just "collected" these 2 videos there ?

Yes that is correct. I have downloaded those from a Russian website and just wanted to preserve them in case if they are real as I didn't see them on international websites. I didn't look into that whether they are real.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Agentgates´s TPU setup with strange wavehill hump
« Reply #62 on: January 06, 2010, 03:18:40 PM »
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Offline agentgates

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Re: Agentgates´s TPU setup with strange wavehill hump
« Reply #63 on: January 06, 2010, 03:28:35 PM »
This was a fake by user EMdevices....
and this
was a fake by user Marco.

Thank you Stefan. I have already removed that and modified the description on the other one.

Offline starcruiser

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Re: Agentgates´s TPU setup with strange wavehill hump
« Reply #64 on: January 06, 2010, 03:37:00 PM »
@Tony,

Thanks for the reply. A few additional questions to clarify your design;

   1. from your previous posts the 45 degree angle seems to imporve the operation correct?
   2. The secondary should be close to the primary windings?
   3. The secondary should be wound with spacing between turns to reduce interaction/capacitance between the wire?

   4. Have you used a sweep generator or dip meter to determine the resonance of the primary yet? I ask since knowing the coils resonance may help match the drive frequency and using some capacitance with the primary may help reduce the driving current and possible heating.

Another idea that comes to mind is to use a 1:1 transformer to isolate the driver FET's or transistors from the primary this might help in resolving the driver heating.

Again some ideas you might want to add to the growing list you have. :)

I will soon contribute more than just words or ideas.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Agentgates´s TPU setup with strange wavehill hump
« Reply #64 on: January 06, 2010, 03:37:00 PM »
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Offline Spider

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Re: Agentgates´s TPU setup with strange wavehill hump
« Reply #65 on: January 06, 2010, 03:58:54 PM »
:D


Step 1.......


Spider

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Agentgates´s TPU setup with strange wavehill hump
« Reply #66 on: January 06, 2010, 04:15:11 PM »
Hi Tony

I made that coil in haste. By the few differences in the pics, I went with the angle you see on the primary.
But now it is 45 deg. I understand NOW that it is still being tested and the theory is not fully complete.

It just came to me as to what might be going on, a vision of sorts and came to some fair conclusions according to these principals you laid out,
1 The secondary need not be in the middle of the primary, or wrapped by the primary, but proximity is necessary.
2 the new and hopefully final deg angle is 45, and it probably should be. we will see. It also makes for more inner and outer primary "crossings"
3 Secondary should be less turns than the primary, or at least not more.

Considering the thin wall tube, the idea of the inside and outside primary crossings need to be close to each other, and apparently the secondary need not be inside the primary.
The star on the wood maybe should be shown much later and concentrate on the tube, but it shows something useful.
So probably the best way to go about it all for the tube style is to use pvc tube with pins on the outside and just zig zag the primary winding outside the tube. This way the primary winding "crossings" are close in proximity also to each other, thus when a secondary is wrapped to it, the inner and outer primary crossings are equally in proximity to the secondary. 

 I say this due to the fact that it makes no sense to have the inner primary windings any further away from the secondary than the outer primary, IF what you state is the case. IF my way is tried and the effect decreases, then I would go with a very thick wall tube, wrap the primary around that, at your 45 deg, then do the secondary to the outside, where the secondary is more influenced by just the outer most angles of the primary.

I am picking up some more wire today and will post pics later.

Magluvin





Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Agentgates´s TPU setup with strange wavehill hump
« Reply #66 on: January 06, 2010, 04:15:11 PM »
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Offline agentgates

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Re: Agentgates´s TPU setup with strange wavehill hump
« Reply #67 on: January 06, 2010, 04:15:21 PM »
An attempt to visualize the setup a bit more, from my views after reading this thread.
Below circuit is my understanding, please indicate whether it is correct or not.
Maybe we can help in improving.

Yes, thank you for your kind offer, we will certainly make it more compact.

There are a few fundamental issues that seems not easy to solve.
It also seems to me that with peak voltages on the output only, this system is not yet OU. Is there someone that understand the reason for the large dissipation in the FETs?

Yes I already answered this important question somewhere. The huge heat dissipation is because the gained energy moves electrons but there is not equal hole from the opposite direction. At ordinary devices the electric current moves as follows:

1st You create holes on the positive side.
2nd Electrons say: "hey guys, there are some holes to fill" so they will start moving to the positive pole, while the holes are travelling toward the electron flow.

This is normal electric current. The more holes you create, the more electrons will try to struggle to comply the holes "demand".

But in this device not this is what happens. Due to the dot-like crossing pattern of winding and the large spaces between the turns you create vortices of electrons inside the copper wire WITHOUT holes. So how do the gained electrons know that which way to flow in the wire if there are no holes?

Two possible ways:
- They will try to find holes wherever they can. There are plenty on the PN transition layer of the IGBTs.
- They will try to find other ways, like the secondary wire if the electron "traffic" is not to "busy".

Conclusion
- Increasing the diameter of the collector will let more electron to flow inside of it.
- Decreasing the diameter of the primary will let less electron to flow back toward the FETs.
- Increasing the numbers of channels will demand more and much smaller spikes and WILL NOT let the already fast moving electrons in the secondary wire to slow down. (when I am done with this we can remove the IGBTs, presently I am using them temporarily for prototyping)

In other words, we don't need mass circuitries to force the electrons moving that way we want, instead, we already know that how they want to move, so make them their way and let them moving easier.

My personal view is that using square wave pulses, the coils will only transform the energy during the waveform transitions, while the FETs consume power during the whole 'on' time of the positive input period.

Yes but this is the TEMPORARY case. Right now I am working on the multi channel version to throw out the brutal IGBTs and don't let the electrons spin down. I will only ticle them to preserve their speed.


Not using a fly-back diode will force at least one of the three FETs to consume significant power for a short period of time, since not all three FETs will switch off at the same time, due to small differences between the three.

Yes but presently if I use one IGBT that has smaller PN surface than 3xIGBTs. So again they are TEMPORARY solution to protect my low voltage power supply from the spikes and they will be removed in any hour. I oversized them by the parallel fashion to make sure they will not follow the dead one. :)

I don't want to kill the spikes ---> I want to harvest them in the seconday wire and make usable electricity with them.

And an interesting observation: there is a small electrostatic field on the heatsink which proves my theory of concept and the lack of holes.

On your drawing:

Two things are missing. A 4700uF 35V cap between the low voltage PSU and a 56 ohm resistor right after the mosfet driver as I DONT want to turn them on so fast and with a 9A current. The mosfet driver is unimportant but I had to use something to reach the ~10V with my PG and turn the IGBTs on.

Offline teslaalset

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Re: Agentgates´s TPU setup with strange wavehill hump
« Reply #68 on: January 06, 2010, 05:21:50 PM »
I see the 'hole' effect that you explain a bit different, maybe we are both talking about the same thing, but let me explain my understanding:

If you charge a coil with current and switch off that current, electrons still keep on traveling to the side of the coil that was initially connected to the positive power source connection. This is caused by the magnetic field that is now present in the coil and leads to a very high amount of 'holes' at the other side of the coil, resulting in the well known high voltage peak.
So, nothing special occurring so far.
In that situation the coil is in a a-stable situation, which is not caused by mysterious effects that add energy into the circuit.

Are you saying that there are even more electrons moved besides the normal electron flow occurring right after switching off a coil?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Agentgates´s TPU setup with strange wavehill hump
« Reply #68 on: January 06, 2010, 05:21:50 PM »
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Offline agentgates

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Re: Agentgates´s TPU setup with strange wavehill hump
« Reply #69 on: January 06, 2010, 05:24:47 PM »
1. from your previous posts the 45 degree angle seems to imporve the operation correct?

I don't know whether it improved anything or not as I did some other critical modifications and altogether it performs far better than the first operating device. But naturally if somebody interested may play with the angle. :)

I will also look into it but there are other priorities right now.

2. The secondary should be close to the primary windings?

Yes and they should touch each other's surface on a dot manner.

3. The secondary should be wound with spacing between turns to reduce interaction/capacitance between the wire?

Yes. Both the primary and secondary should be wound with spaces so PRIMARY/PRIMARY wires are far, SECONDARY/SECONDARY wires are far and PRIMERY/SECONDARY wires touch each others surface. (use a thin plastic tape, like clear acrylic to make sure they dont rub each other and damage the enamel)

4. Have you used a sweep generator or dip meter to determine the resonance of the primary yet?

No but you can see it clearly on the scope as you varying the input frq. Resonance is not critical here.

I ask since knowing the coils resonance may help match the drive frequency and using some capacitance with the primary may help reduce the driving current and possible heating.

When you have the 3 channels done and driving them after each other the current flow in the secondary will look like charging a cap and watching it on the scope. Your TPU is operating at the best performance when you get an almost perfectly straight line DC out of it. This is what I got with my first 2 operating device but at that time I didn't really understand the nature of this device so there were some huge spikes and about 40-50VDC straight line out. Therefore I had to give it more juice to light the bulb, and use another stage of TPU to boost the performance.

But the new design is refined. It gives a beautiful rising and falling dome. All I will do to make more and overlapp them and I will get something like stairs until I reached the voltage I want. When I did, I will simply decrease the height of each dome.

Another idea that comes to mind is to use a 1:1 transformer to isolate the driver FET's or transistors from the primary this might help in resolving the driver heating.

Thanks we will look into this one if the multi channel thing wont bring the expected results. :) For now I am focusing onto decrease the "correcting" circuitry and use as small amount of parts as possible.

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Agentgates´s TPU setup with strange wavehill hump
« Reply #70 on: January 06, 2010, 05:36:29 PM »
Hi agentgates,
to what DC level do you refer on your scope shots ?
I just see the backemf spike from the coil
and a bit selfoscillation of the coil, but no real DC level.

Where is your zero ground line on your scope shots and
do you have a picture or a video of your device
lighting up the 50 Watts bulb ?

Many thanks in advance.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Agentgates´s TPU setup with strange wavehill hump
« Reply #70 on: January 06, 2010, 05:36:29 PM »
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Offline agentgates

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Re: Agentgates´s TPU setup with strange wavehill hump
« Reply #71 on: January 06, 2010, 05:44:12 PM »
@Spider

Very nice primary coil! The tube is perfect, the wire is perhaps a bit too thick so you will need a strong switching circuit. Later I figured out we can decrease the incoming juice by increasing the number of channels. But anyway, try it out and let us know how it performs.

I made that coil in haste. By the few differences in the pics, I went with the angle you see on the primary.
But now it is 45 deg. I understand NOW that it is still being tested and the theory is not fully complete.


The theory is fully completed, the device not as I am a perfectionist but already operational and gives usable energy. We are already on the second stage and all what I am doing now just simplifying the device to help you all in duplicating it. :)

It just came to me as to what might be going on, a vision of sorts and came to some fair conclusions according to these principals you laid out,
1 The secondary need not be in the middle of the primary, or wrapped by the primary, but proximity is necessary.

Yes.

2 the new and hopefully final deg angle is 45, and it probably should be. we will see. It also makes for more inner and outer primary "crossings"

Yes and to make it clear again, this is vital benefit to increase the output voltage. What is wrong if you make crossing or touch on the same coils turns. So avoid PRIMARY-PRIMARY touch and SECONDARY-SECONDARY touch and increase the # of PRIMARY-SECONDARY crossing to increase the voltage output (by the secondary turns). If the current is not enough, you can use thicker for secondary.

3 Secondary should be less turns than the primary, or at least not more.

Don't count the secondary. Try it. :) If the current is low, use thicker wire. If the voltage is low use more turnes. But later when I am done with the 3x channels it will be even less important.

So probably the best way to go about it all for the tube style is to use pvc tube with pins on the outside and just zig zag the primary winding outside the tube. This way the primary winding "crossings" are close in proximity also to each other, thus when a secondary is wrapped to it, the inner and outer primary crossings are equally in proximity to the secondary.

Yes I have already solved this thing, read the previous posts. Presently I am cutting the vid and will post it in a few hours.

I am picking up some more wire today and will post pics later.

Thank you. :)
« Last Edit: January 06, 2010, 06:23:27 PM by agentgates »

Offline agentgates

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Re: Agentgates´s TPU setup with strange wavehill hump
« Reply #72 on: January 06, 2010, 05:49:43 PM »
Are you saying that there are even more electrons moved besides the normal electron flow occurring right after switching off a coil?

Yes, this is all I am saying.

teslalset, the primary winding on that coil is 0.74mm and gets warm. Think of that how much energy you need there to get the solder molten inside a 500W IGBT in 3-5 sec and the zinc plating on the back side "wavy". :) (BTW, this thing is already getting obsolate and post the picture soon with the refined version)

Offline agentgates

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Re: Agentgates´s TPU setup with strange wavehill hump
« Reply #73 on: January 06, 2010, 05:58:21 PM »
to what DC level do you refer on your scope shots ?

I didn't photo that yet, but will do it in a few hours with vids and photos. (BTW I fried my last fet driver accidentally by closing the output on the poor wireing, so temporarily I'll have to make one from discrete devices)

I just see the backemf spike from the coil
and a bit selfoscillation of the coil, but no real DC level.

That is obsolete, please read my previous comments. :) The new spike is a beautiful HV high current dome in the positive range. (new winding technique with gaps on the secondary)

Where is your zero ground line on your scope shots

A tiny arrow indicates it on the left side.

and do you have a picture or a video of your device lighting up the 50 Watts bulb ?

Yes, soon I am posting them and sorry for the delay with it.

Offline teslaalset

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Re: Agentgates´s TPU setup with strange wavehill hump
« Reply #74 on: January 06, 2010, 06:00:33 PM »
Ok, fair enough, I guess I have to believe you.
I am very curious how this replicates. I am standby to do this at a later stage, I am waiting for components to build a universal coil driver circuit first.

Thanks for having patience with the stubborn ones amongst us  ;)
« Last Edit: January 06, 2010, 06:56:22 PM by teslaalset »

 

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