Language: 
To browser these website, it's necessary to store cookies on your computer.
The cookies contain no personal information, they are required for program control.
  the storage of cookies while browsing this website, on Login and Register.

GDPR and DSGVO law

Storing Cookies (See : http://ec.europa.eu/ipg/basics/legal/cookies/index_en.htm ) help us to bring you our services at overunity.com . If you use this website and our services you declare yourself okay with using cookies .More Infos here:
https://overunity.com/5553/privacy-policy/
If you do not agree with storing cookies, please LEAVE this website now. From the 25th of May 2018, every existing user has to accept the GDPR agreement at first login. If a user is unwilling to accept the GDPR, he should email us and request to erase his account. Many thanks for your understanding.
Amazon Warehouse Deals ! Now even more Deep Discounts ! Check out these great prices on slightly used or just opened once only items.I always buy my gadgets via these great Warehouse deals ! Highly recommended ! Many thanks for supporting OverUnity.com this way.

User Menu

Tesla Paper

Free Energy Book

Get paid

Donations

Please Donate for the Forum.
Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.(Admin)

A-Ads

Powerbox

Smartbox

3D Solar

3D Solar Panels

DC2DC converter

Micro JouleThief

FireMatch

FireMatch

CCKnife

CCKnife

CCTool

CCTool

Magpi Magazine

Magpi Magazine Free Rasberry Pi Magazine

Battery Recondition

Battery Recondition

Arduino

Ultracaps

YT Subscribe

Gravity Machines

Tesla-Ebook

Magnet Secrets

Lindemann Video

Navigation

Products

Products

WaterMotor kit

Statistics

  • *Total Members: 83955
  • *Latest: serials

  • *Total Posts: 525623
  • *Total Topics: 15646
  • *Online Today: 44
  • *Most Online: 103
(December 19, 2006, 11:27:19 PM)
  • *Users: 2
  • *Guests: 10
  • *Total: 12

Author Topic: Energy gain by induction change.  (Read 13170 times)

Offline broli

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2218
Energy gain by induction change.
« on: January 04, 2010, 10:53:52 PM »
Since I didn't want to distract the on going Steorn thread I decided to make a new thread about this subject. Since I don't build much I can spend more time thinking, and this is what Steorn led me to think...

http://ziosproject.com/NJ/magPres/index.htm

It's almost self explanatory but here's a summary. Basically it's a system where an inductor changes inductance during a certain time period. But the energy gain that comes with this is unexplained as the mechanical energy loss is in comparison very small. This system is based on two facts, core saturation and seemingly small mechanical forces. When you combine these two energy might get created in big quantities. In the presentation every rotation gives about 800 Joules. This is considering ideal conditions like giving the current enough time to rise during the small period where the magnet is at TDC.

As a side note I should add that hysteresis losses plays a big role too. The smaller the remnant magnetic field, after collapsing it, the better.

I hope this will make people think.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Energy gain by induction change.
« on: January 04, 2010, 10:53:52 PM »

Offline teslaalset

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 695
Re: Energy gain by induction change.
« Reply #1 on: January 04, 2010, 11:03:00 PM »
Broli, that is a very good analysis indeed. Thanks for sharing this insight.
I had a look at the effect of the changing permeability of magnetic material  under the influence of magnetic fields. Below a graph of this effect which you described.

Zooming into Naudin's experiment to determine the current lag and what may be the reason for his findings that may seem a contradiction to this theory, I think Naudins findings may be explained as follows:
If the magnets Naudin is using are not strong enough to saturate the core of the toroid, he is measuring at the left hand area, before umax in the graph, so too weak magnetic field strenght.

He should place his magnets even more close to his toroid to achief the required effect.
This may then lead to too weak induction values of the toroid to get the motor going with the maximum current he has available.

In my view, it's very important to have a good balance in the magnet strenght, coil value and the permeability value of the toroid core. So, it's not so simple to obtain the perfect situation.

[edit] additional remarks:
Instead of decreasing the distance of the magnet to the toroid there are two alternatives to obtain a saturated toroid coil while having too weak rotor magnets:
1) mount a strong enough magnet to the (back)side of the toroid with the proper polarity facing the rotor magnets
2) use bifilar windings and use one set of the winding to add DC current to the coil. This one is very useful to do measurements on the core saturation

The measurement method of Naudin is very useful to optimize the setup anyway.

Offline gyulasun

  • without_ads
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4065
Re: Energy gain by induction change.
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2010, 11:35:20 AM »
Since I didn't want to distract the on going Steorn thread I decided to make a new thread about this subject. Since I don't build much I can spend more time thinking, and this is what Steorn led me to think...

http://ziosproject.com/NJ/magPres/index.htm

It's almost self explanatory but here's a summary. Basically it's a system where an inductor changes inductance during a certain time period. But the energy gain that comes with this is unexplained as the mechanical energy loss is in comparison very small. This system is based on two facts, core saturation and seemingly small mechanical forces. When you combine these two energy might get created in big quantities. In the presentation every rotation gives about 800 Joules. This is considering ideal conditions like giving the current enough time to rise during the small period where the magnet is at TDC.

As a side note I should add that hysteresis losses plays a big role too. The smaller the remnant magnetic field, after collapsing it, the better.

I hope this will make people think.

Hi Broli,

Last night I saw your drawings in your link but now they disappeared...  :o ??? :o

Anyway I understood and agreed on your first two drawings but the third puzzled me much and I did not get it. It would be best to see it again for my  question.

So what's happened I wonder.

Thanks, Gyula

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Energy gain by induction change.
« Reply #2 on: January 05, 2010, 11:35:20 AM »
Sponsored links:




Offline broli

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2218
Re: Energy gain by induction change.
« Reply #3 on: January 05, 2010, 02:15:13 PM »
Hi Broli,

Last night I saw your drawings in your link but now they disappeared...  :o ??? :o

Anyway I understood and agreed on your first two drawings but the third puzzled me much and I did not get it. It would be best to see it again for my  question.

So what's happened I wonder.

Thanks, Gyula

The link should still be operating, try again.

Basically in the third diagram the current in the coil is keeping the core saturated as the magnet moves away. But the magnet is being pulled back as it moves away, this is an energy loss. I estimated this energy loss by saying that on average the magnet wil be pulled back by a force of 5N during the entire 90°. This is not really correct since we know the magnet will have a big force close up and very fast get down due to the 1/r^2 nature of the force, this is why I just took the average to keep things simple.

While that is happening though there is no flux change in the coil since the current is holding the saturation. I will include a very ideal hysteresis to explain why flux doesn't change.

Offline gyulasun

  • without_ads
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4065
Re: Energy gain by induction change.
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2010, 02:42:21 PM »
Hi,

I am still in office where I do  not see the pictures but a fully empty page (I meant the link works but with no pictures seen). Last night I saw them from home, there was no problem with seeing the pictures and hopefully from home I will be able to see them again.

Ok on your explanation for the third picture I understand it now but it needs a practical test and it is difficult to measure. 
As the flux of the permanent magnet moves out of the core the question is how much input power is needed to keep the core in saturation (or in near saturation) so that a minimal loss should occur from the attraction momentum. Present science says that the same flux should be needed to keep it in  saturation like the permanent magnet established in it at the facing position moment and I hope that hysteresis and / or viscosity of the core may modify it to the ou area...
Cores with rectangular hysteresis do exist but I wonder if the B-H curve needs the rectangular shape with a narrow area in between, I tend to believe such feature is needed for the curve, what do you think?

Thanks,  Gyula

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Energy gain by induction change.
« Reply #4 on: January 05, 2010, 02:42:21 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline broli

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2218
Re: Energy gain by induction change.
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2010, 02:47:23 PM »
Hi,

I am still in office where I do  not see the pictures but a fully empty page (I meant the link works but with no pictures seen). Last night I saw them from home, there was no problem with seeing the pictures and hopefully from home I will be able to see them again.

Ok on your explanation for the third picture I understand it now but it needs a practical test and it is difficult to measure. 
As the flux of the permanent magnet moves out of the core the question is how much input power is needed to keep the core in saturation (or in near saturation) so that a minimal loss should occur from the attraction momentum. Present science says that the same flux should be needed to keep it in  saturation like the permanent magnet established in it at the facing position moment and I hope that hysteresis and / or viscosity of the core may modify it to the ou area...
Cores with rectangular hysteresis do exist but I wonder if the B-H curve needs the rectangular shape with a narrow area in between, I tend to believe such feature is needed for the curve, what do you think?

Thanks,  Gyula

A rectangular hysteresis is probably the worst shape you can have with this. What you need is a shape that has very little remnant magnetic field after the current is removed.

http://www.emeraldinsight.com/fig/1740250114012.png

Edit: I also attached an idealized hysteresis for this setup. This shows a constant permeability all the way to the saturation current where it very suddenly becomes 1 (air). In our setup the magnet first provides I_sat, then the coil is energized with permeability = 1 to I_sat. From the core's point of view all you did is double the current so the flux is not going to increase which means no induced EMF. Then as the magnet moves away that 2* I_sat current becomes I_sat again, not changing the flux thus no induced emf, until you discharge it now with the constant permeability. I guess I could simplify this whole thing by saying: The magnet charges the inductor mechanically and the coil discharges it electrically. But the electrical gain overshadows the mechanical loss.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2010, 03:13:42 PM by broli »

Offline gyulasun

  • without_ads
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4065
Re: Energy gain by induction change.
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2010, 03:24:19 PM »
Ok, I stand corrected for the rectangular shape,  your explanation sounds good to me now.   I hope your explanation holds in practice too, I really wish.

Thanks, Gyula

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Energy gain by induction change.
« Reply #6 on: January 05, 2010, 03:24:19 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline danmarius7

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 10
Re: Energy gain by induction change.
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2010, 08:32:14 PM »
When you collapse the field you get huge amounts of energy but for a very very very small amount of time t=0.0001 seconds. But the amount of power you put in your coil for the time needed for the other magnet to move away is some watts x maybe 1 second! Do the math it doesn't add up. (Maybe just at very very high rotation speeds)

Offline broli

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2218
Re: Energy gain by induction change.
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2010, 08:42:16 PM »
When you collapse the field you get huge amounts of energy but for a very very very small amount of time t=0.0001 seconds. But the amount of power you put in your coil for the time needed for the other magnet to move away is some watts x maybe 1 second! Do the math it doesn't add up. (Maybe just at very very high rotation speeds)

I advise you to go over the presentation again. The coil isn't energized to allow the magnet to leave easily it's the contrary. You should redo your math and logic. You can do this experiment step wise but you'll need a super conductor so current keeps flowing without a voltage source.

step 1: Let magnet attract to core => mechanical energy gain
step 2: Add current to already saturated core due to magnet => inductive energy loss, but is little due to low inductance
step 3: Move magnet away => mechanical energy loss, is more than the gained in step 1 since coil field is constant as magnet moves away
step 4: Discharge coil => inductive energy gain, at first sight this is a lot more than the mechanical loss and inputted inductive energy

You see, there's no time variables.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Energy gain by induction change.
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2010, 08:42:16 PM »
3D Solar Panels

Offline danmarius7

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 10
Re: Energy gain by induction change.
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2010, 03:40:09 PM »
So, you say the current you put in the coil at 2 just hangs around there for a couple of seconds until the step 4 can take place ? I hope you know current isn't just laying around in buckets.

Offline broli

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2218
Re: Energy gain by induction change.
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2010, 03:48:46 PM »
Yes if you use the concept of super conductors, if you don't then the energy is heat.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Energy gain by induction change.
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2010, 03:48:46 PM »
3D Solar Panels

Offline onthecuttingedge2005

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1335
Re: Energy gain by induction change.
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2010, 04:39:03 PM »
one of the things that interest me is Ultrasonic magnetic fields, take one large flat Ultrasonic transducer and glue a very strong NEO on its driver face, build a driver circuit that can vary the Hz, test field inductions with generator coils in close proximity to test input to output watts.

Offline danmarius7

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 10
Re: Energy gain by induction change.
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2010, 06:08:15 PM »
Yes if you use the concept of super conductors, if you don't then the energy is heat.
Now, that's more like it.

Offline Omega_0

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 437
Re: Energy gain by induction change.
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2010, 06:33:06 PM »
It's almost self explanatory but here's a summary. Basically it's a system where an inductor changes inductance during a certain time period. But the energy gain that comes with this is unexplained as the mechanical energy loss is in comparison very small. This system is based on two facts, core saturation and seemingly small mechanical forces. When you combine these two energy might get created in big quantities. In the presentation every rotation gives about 800 Joules. This is considering ideal conditions like giving the current enough time to rise during the small period where the magnet is at TDC.

Yes, it is puzzling indeed. But the situation is much complicated than shown in your diagrams.

First of all the energy equation 0.5LI^2 is valid only for an inductor with constant L. For a variable L, also called VariInd (just like a VariCap), the energy is given by LdI/dt + IdL/dt. So the time factor comes into play when you vary the inductance while maintaining a current. The variation can be done by, say, inserting an iron rod into the coil.

This method has been in use for long and is called Parametric Amplifier, used in low noise microwave amplifiers, satellites and antennas. It seems that it is not OU, simply because the tech exists since a 100 years and we all are still paying electricity bills. Some people have attempted building OU devices using such stuff (and it is shockingly similar to what you call steorn effect). Check out these links:

http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/paraconv.htm
http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/paraintr.htm
http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/paraform.htm

Offline wings

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 750
Re: Energy gain by induction change.
« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2010, 06:54:02 PM »
Yes, it is puzzling indeed. But the situation is much complicated than shown in your diagrams.

First of all the energy equation 0.5LI^2 is valid only for an inductor with constant L. For a variable L, also called VariInd (just like a VariCap), the energy is given by LdI/dt + IdL/dt. So the time factor comes into play when you vary the inductance while maintaining a current. The variation can be done by, say, inserting an iron rod into the coil.

This method has been in use for long and is called Parametric Amplifier, used in low noise microwave amplifiers, satellites and antennas. It seems that it is not OU, simply because the tech exists since a 100 years and we all are still paying electricity bills. Some people have attempted building OU devices using such stuff (and it is shockingly similar to what you call steorn effect). Check out these links:

http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/paraconv.htm
http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/paraintr.htm
http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/paraform.htm


and this
http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/largcoil.htm

 

OneLink