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Solid States Devices => Joule Thief => Topic started by: resonanceman on January 03, 2010, 03:20:03 AM

Title: Hairpin Project
Post by: resonanceman on January 03, 2010, 03:20:03 AM
In the last few weeks  I my focus  has  been changing.
I have been building less and  researching more.

Someone  posted this link  and I think I have found what I  have been looking for.

Part 1 of 6: Eric Dollard Tesla Longitudinal wave Energy SBARC Ham Radio with Chris Carson

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhuSn6sc7sc

The  hairpin  circuit keeps  popping up.
It is  time to learn about it.

This is not just capturing  a little  flyback  this is  real radiant energy.

What  I have got  so far is  to get radiant energy we need a whole different configuration .

It is a diferent kind of energy
It is a different kind of resonance.

As far as I know  resonace works at all voltages...... I see no reason why radiant energy would  be different.

I am suggesting  we  work on making a  JT powered hairpin circuit.
We can get prety good voltage out of  a JT.
With the right  configuration  we should  be able to get it to work.

If we can make half  the progress with the hairpin  as we have made with the JT .........I think we  will  be doing some truly  great things

I hope others  here will join me in this  project

I will be posting  links  here as I find them.

gary
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: onthecuttingedge2005 on January 03, 2010, 04:55:53 AM
what you really want is a tuned system that directly taps each electrons wavelength and frequency directly but of course this is playing with 'nano' tuning systems that really don't exist yet.

just rember you heard it from me when this type system becomes available in the future. every electron gives of a field of a specific wavelength and frequency, far below the macro scale.

we are talking about trillions of nano recievers that tap directly off the electron itself.

Jerry 8)
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: jadaro2600 on January 03, 2010, 05:28:04 AM
I'm at issue with this circuit - it's high voltage,  I have yet to find a decent circuit diagram and explanation that isn't ancient; something original is one thing, something down right old is another.  These other gentlemen testing circuits don't usually have websites with these things on them.

..the circuit, it's high voltage, of course it's going to light things up and blow light bulbs, but its just doing that, ..the radiant energy concept and the voltage oriented are nearly one and the same.  Someone claiming that they've found cold electricity from a tesla radiant hairpin circuit is experiencing the zen of extreme low-current high-voltage operation.

Make it a goal! ...I think the recent postings in the low ma draw, 'new type of joule thief' thread are interesting. ( and productive )..though they've not been able to wow me with voltage gains, I did plop in a secondary with a low ma draw, and it seems to be functioning rather well.
- - - - -

I may mention that the JT produces mostly pulsed DC ( so there is a lsight DC bias to the AC ) ... it's going to have to be symmetrical wave in order to get tesla's effects, otherwise it's a different art all together.
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: resonanceman on January 03, 2010, 04:09:18 PM
Quote from: jadaro2600 link=topic=8572.msg219123#msg219123 date=1262492884

..the radiant energy concept and the voltage oriented are nearly one and the same.  Someone claiming that they've found cold electricity from a tesla radiant hairpin circuit is experiencing the zen of extreme low-current high-voltage operation.

 

Jadaro

You  are entitled to your opinion.

I know enough about radiant energy to know  that there  is something to it.

I know  enough about Tesla to know that he was blacklisted for trying to  bring  radiant energy to  the people.

What  I got from the video was  a place  to start.
Radiant energy  requires  a whole different configurationj.
As long  as you stick to  conventional knowledge  it is impossible.
It is NOT just high voltage.


gary
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: resonanceman on January 03, 2010, 04:13:31 PM
Double  post deleated
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: resonanceman on January 03, 2010, 04:23:48 PM
what you really want is a tuned system that directly taps each electrons wavelength and frequency directly but of course this is playing with 'nano' tuning systems that really don't exist yet.

just rember you heard it from me when this type system becomes available in the future. every electron gives of a field of a specific wavelength and frequency, far below the macro scale.

we are talking about trillions of nano recievers that tap directly off the electron itself.

Jerry 8)

Jerry

I remember  someone  testing  an array of diodes.
It seems that  just an array of diodes will produce a small  amount of  usable  energy from quantum vibration alone.

The problem with larger applications  of this is  no chip maker will make  a large scale array of diodes.


gary

gary
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: Magluvin on January 03, 2010, 04:50:04 PM
Resonanceman
Hi   Are you saying that obtaining amplifying effects of radiant energy can be done at lower freq and lower voltages?
That would be great
Mags
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: forest on January 03, 2010, 05:23:58 PM
Radiant energy is magnetic wave supported by Earth magnetosphere. :P Simple
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: resonanceman on January 04, 2010, 04:37:23 AM
Resonanceman
Hi   Are you saying that obtaining amplifying effects of radiant energy can be done at lower freq and lower voltages?
That would be great
Mags


I had  a major Ah Ha moment in the first minutes of this video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=64yKW9FSsBY&feature=related

There is  a completely different kind of configuration and a completely  different  kind  of resonance than we currently use.
This  configuration and type  of resonance  has been  almost been  completely  forgotten  or  suppressed.

Tesla knew about it, and used it.

If we can fill in enough  blanks  about  the details  of  these things  I  think  we will  be able to bring  back  some of what was lost when Tesla was blacklisted.

I  think that finding  the right configuration is key.
Like  any electronics  circuit  if we do  not  understand what  it is doing  and put it together wrong......it will not  work right.

As far as low voltage goes.
I do think with the right circuits we should be able top make radiant energy  with  low voltage .........of course  it is much easier  to notice what is  going on when  you use higher voltage .....I think this is one  of the keys  to Teslas progress ............he did  things in a big way....... extreme frequency and voltage ......


For frequency ........ as I understand  it  the frequency is not that important ....... yes  a  higher  frequency means more spikes......more spikes mean more power  available........but the  real trick is in  creating spikes with a VERY high rate of change.

I am certain that  information about  energy that would allow us energy independance  has been withheld from us.

In  the first Eric Dollard video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YhuSn6sc7sc
He talks about a man that transmited  a signal between 2 kites
many  years ago ........ this  was  true free energy.
The wind passing  over the kite created  a static charge .......the static sharge could then be temporaly  grounded by the telagraph key
This  produced electrostatic pulses that were picked up by a galvanometer hooked to another kite miles away.
Air moving over  the surface of a kite .........and  air moving  over the surface of water droplets ........ same  effect ......one was used for transmitting  a signal........the other  is what creates lighting.



gary







Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: Magluvin on January 04, 2010, 04:56:30 AM
Resman
I see what you saw in vid 2 about the resonances in a coil. I didnt quite catch that the first time around.
Thanks for pointing it out.
I have to watch all those vids again.
The one where Chris talks about transformer cores, I wish he had given an answer to that. I dont get it.

Thanks Resman

Mags
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: resonanceman on January 04, 2010, 05:05:32 AM
Resonanceman, that is a good observation.  There have been such arrays used, but the only ones I have seen myself were internal devices at IBM.  They had very specific "Problems" that occured because of some of the "Strange" properties.  I'm sure you have heard of "Bubble Memory".  Though I am not privy to the exact details, those two concepts are related.

Nice to see someone really starting to understand "Real" radiant energy, and you are 100% correct in what you say.  That is where you have to start, as all of the EE learning was a real problem in understanding.  Just trying to use standard components is a pain.  (Have learned a little.  Seems that flat coils with component at field focus point is helpful, but I have no practical info yet.  Just a couple testing results that I don't fully understand myself, YET.)

For info, RE  (OK, I'll use it.  I prefer other terms.) WILL operate at low voltage, however, the effects are so misunderstood that they are hard to work with at a low level.  Compare to arcing a spark gap.  Easier to work with several thousand volts.  The spark can exist at much lower levels, but is usually not visable.  See where I'm going.....

I'm also pleased to see you have seen the frequency difference between EM resonance and RE resonance.  I am thinking this points to a speed difference, but that is only theory.  If accurate, there is MUCH more here than meets the eye. (Add Beardon into the mix, and it all gets too heavy for me, but I can still learn the basics.)  Just think how many have wound / built "Tesla" coils, trying to tune them via "Normal" resonance......  And to think there are people out there that still think there is no information suppression......  I'm currently stuck in the relationship between heaviside and RE effects.  Not sure how they fit together but they do indicate what is really going on.  Big area of study.  Very interesting.

Loner

I do remember  reading that bubble memory started out as a problem.
I do not remember any of the  details either.


I see what  you mean about the spark gap.......... I personaly do not like spark gaps........  It has been a goal of mine for a few years now to come up with different way to do the  same things a spark gap does.
If  I can do that ........ lower voltage radiant energy could get much easier.



What you said about people making Tesla coils is interesting.
Before I  found this site I wanted to build a Tesla coil.
I went to a site where people were making  lots of different Tesla coils..........some  of them were very large.

Although they were called Tesla coils  they were something different to me.
I tried to talk about it  and  was told very bluntly that they had made  many Tesla  coils  and  they knew what  they were  doing.

They insisted that  a properly made Tesla coil should make  an irragular noise.
I say a Tesla coil  is a tuned circuit ......it should  have a smooth even sound.

They described making  a rotary spark gap  on a fixed speed motor.
For  a Tesla coil to be in resonance  the make and break  of the spark gap must  be in sinc with the resonance. I saw no evidence that they were even trying to synchronize  the spark gap

I ended up  not making a Tesla coil because  all of the  coils I saw just seemed wrong.


`````````````````````````````````````````

I have  spent some time on Beardens site........ I can't follow the math ..........but I think I have the general idea  down.

gary

Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: Mk1 on January 04, 2010, 05:22:37 AM
@Gary

So to start , we need some type of kooler hybrid circuit.

I was thinking your flyback jt to feed the cap , i think i will fill the cap faster the the jeanna light toroid.

This may well raise the freq enough to get started on the hairpin circuit.

Before replacing the spark gap , we need to learn from it .

Btw one of my favorite part of the movie is the jump rope example...

Keep the good work !

Mark 
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: resonanceman on January 04, 2010, 05:22:39 AM
Resman
I see what you saw in vid 2 about the resonances in a coil. I didnt quite catch that the first time around.
Thanks for pointing it out.
I have to watch all those vids again.
The one where Chris talks about transformer cores, I wish he had given an answer to that. I dont get it.

Thanks Resman

Mags

Mags

I wound not have caught that .......except  I have   had the idea  of radiant  energy  simmering  in the back of my mind for a few years now ........
I saw it and it was likle .............aaaahhhhh that is why  I have had so little luck........I was missing a major piece of the puzzle.


About the transformer explanation.
I think you got it .......by not  getting it.
:)

I think his whole point  was nobody gets it .



gary
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: Magluvin on January 04, 2010, 05:31:32 AM
I see the difference in the common Tesla coils vs what Tesla had.
He used high tension dc as a source. And the spark gap was magnetically quenched. These others are ac component. Tesla found that the RE only showed itself when high tension dc was released. He further improved and gained control over it using a strong magnet to pull the electrons from the flow in the spark. In some of his pat. you see a v shape near the spark gaps.  By doing this, the spark was not allowing any reversal of the current in the spark, thus improving the amount and control of the RE component. The key was not to allow reversal of the dc released into the circuit. Diodes? I think you are on to it already. I myself am just figuring all this out.
If ya get a chance, read Secrets of Cold War Technology. It says that the common Tesla coils we see today are not from Tesla, they are from another scientist. It also tells that Tesla had come up with a RE reciever that didnt need a transmitter, this was after they demolished his tower and lab. And this was what he used to power the Peirce Arrow AC induction motor.  =]
Magluvin
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: resonanceman on January 04, 2010, 05:57:49 AM
@Gary

So to start , we need some type of kooler hybrid circuit.

I was thinking your flyback jt to feed the cap , i think i will fill the cap faster the the jeanna light toroid.

This may well raise the freq enough to get started on the hairpin circuit.

Before replacing the spark gap , we need to learn from it .

Btw one of my favorite part of the movie is the jump rope example...

Keep the good work !

Mark

Mark

I am not sure which flyback JT  you mean.

I have sevral made from flyback cores......one made  with the whole flyback transformer ....
My JTs  that I made from flyback cores or the transformer have been among my strongest.........and they seem to work  good at both 1.5 and 12 V   My 5 for $1 JTs  that work well at 1.5 V  seem to put out  the same or less at 12 V

```````````````````````````````````

I am not an expert on radiant  energy or the hairpin circuit
I am not  going to try to say how we should  start .......or what we should  try.

I do have faith that if  we  try  we can make some great progress.
If  I remember right  the Joule Thief thread started with one question ........something like .......  can someone tell  me what is  going on with this circuit?

Look how much  we have learned sense then

:)

``````````````````````````````````````````

I am not sure when I will be able to take  the next step  in  making a replacment for a spark gap........ it is  like a passion  for me.
I believe it is one of the keys that we need to make  radiant  energy practical .

What I mean by this is.........somethings  are just not practical  with high enough  voltages to use  a spark gap.
If we learned how  to make  a small self charging radiant  energy battery pack .......and it had a spark gap in it that ran at 5000 V ........ would  you want to put it in your pocket?


gary
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: Magluvin on January 04, 2010, 06:29:27 AM
I am with you there Res.
Lower voltage and portability.  A cap can be a High Tension source. Getting that charge is easy and high freq helps to keep it that way. So lets say we use a reed switch to make our spark gap, or make and break as Tesla first used before the spark gap. If we have a reed relay, we can easily get the reed to pulse at fairly high freq and use diodes to stop the back feed, as Tesla claims. I have some big reeds that I will have to use a larger coil to operate as compared to a reed relay. Now where I am at with it is what do we do with the output of that pulse. How do we utilize the RE into usable energy. How is that excess manifested. Im still reading.

Magluvin
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: forest on January 04, 2010, 09:10:28 AM
No need to use diodes when you have Edison DC  generator with commutator  ::)
Reversals was not possible at all because commutator was acting as second spark gap - btw this is why commutator was invented - to prevent AC ha ha, of course by accident .
What is happening with magnetic field of solenoid if circuit suddenly is opened on both ends ?
It has to dissipate somehow....
Btw capacitor can also be a gap in circuit...
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: Magluvin on January 04, 2010, 10:02:21 AM
Forest
Well we dont have an Edison dc gen handy, also most of Teslas Impulse projects did use the gen as a source.
But he still had to use a magnetic spark blowout setup. Just to make the jump a pure one way situation.
Can you elaborate on the cap as a spark gap? Tito mentioned that also. He had me going on using a zener diode, and then said that he didnt use that anymore, he uses a cap. So now Im really lost. In that respect anyway.
Thanks forest

Mags
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: resonanceman on January 04, 2010, 06:01:31 PM
I am with you there Res.
Lower voltage and portability.  A cap can be a High Tension source. Getting that charge is easy and high freq helps to keep it that way. So lets say we use a reed switch to make our spark gap, or make and break as Tesla first used before the spark gap. If we have a reed relay, we can easily get the reed to pulse at fairly high freq and use diodes to stop the back feed, as Tesla claims. I have some big reeds that I will have to use a larger coil to operate as compared to a reed relay. Now where I am at with it is what do we do with the output of that pulse. How do we utilize the RE into usable energy. How is that excess manifested. Im still reading.

Magluvin

Magluvin

A  reed switch may be a good place to start ........along that line  there are also available small preset spark gaps  I do not  remember what they are called...... a couple people on the earth battery thread were experimenting with  them    I will  have to look them up .

Any device that uses a spark gap of any kind  will eventually fail because  the spark carries a small amount of metal with  it each time.

I want  a build it and  forget it kind of device.
I do not want to have to keep adjusting  a spark gap to keep it running

My idea would work kind of like  a mag amp.
It would have 2 cores  an input and an output core./
The power level that it runs at would  be set by  the input coil  and core.
The input  coil will make magnetic flux that will  go into the input core
The vast majority  of the flux will stay in the core unless enough power is used to saturate the core.
Once the input core is saturated the magnetic flux will start to flow outside the core
This  core will need  a non magnetic spacer around it for this excess flux to flow in

I am thinking  that the output core should  be of higher permeability  or  have more iron content  than the input core.

Assuming  we  have enough power  to have  the input core saturated  and flux flowing  in the space  between the 2 cores.  If we add a little more power  the  flux will have enough volume to be flowing near enough to the output core to be attracted to it..

If  the  output  sore is more attractive to the flux than the input core......the majority  of the magnetic flux should  jump the gap kind of like  a magnet jumps to a piece  of iron.

So far  I have not  got the jump to work.
The best I have done is  to  have a coil  that lets the voltage below  a certain voltage through on the input  side.

Voltage above that level appeared on the output  side.
This was  done on a toroid.
Toroids really suck for this kind  of device because  the winding is not uniform from  inside to outside ,

I have breen meaning to try  a couple  E cores I got a while back
The question is.......what  do I use for a input core.
The input  core would have to be added to the coil after the output coil and the flux gap.



Another thing that might work  with this kind  of coil.
If an extra winding  was placed in the gap  between the  input  and output cores  this  winding would either aid  the flux in jumping or inhibit it depending on its polarity  ......it could  be an inductive triode.

gary

 
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: resonanceman on January 04, 2010, 06:11:13 PM
Magluvin

A  reed switch may be a good place to start ........along that line  there are also available small preset spark gaps  I do not  remember what they are called...... a couple people on the earth battery thread were experimenting with  them    I will  have to look them up .

Any device that uses a spark gap of any kind  will eventually fail because  the spark carries a small amount of metal with  it each time.

I want  a build it and  forget it kind of device.
I do not want to have to keep adjusting  a spark gap top keep it running

My idea would work kind of like  a mag amp.
It would have 2 cores  an input and an output core./
The power level that it runs at would  be set by  the input coil  and core.
The input  coil will make magnetic flux that will  go into the input core
The vast majority  of the flux will stay in the core unless enough power is used to saturate the core.
Once the input core is saturated the magnetic flux will start to flow outside the core
This  core will need  a non magnetic spacer around it for this excess flux to flow in

I am thinking  that the output core should  be of higher permeability  or  have more iron content  than the input core.

Assuming  we  have enough power  to have  the input core saturated  and flux flowing  in the space  between the 2 cores.  If we add a little more power  the  flux will have enough volume to be flowing near enough to the output core to be attrracted to it..

If  the  output  sore is more arttractive to the flux than the input core......the majority  of the magnetic flux should  jump the gap kind of like  a magnet jumps to a piece  of iron.

So far  I have not  got the jump to work.
The best I have done is  to  have a coil  that lets the voltage below  a certian voltage through on the input  side.

Voltage above that level appeared on the output  side.
This was  done on a toroid.
Toroids really suck for this kind  of device because  the winding is not uniform from  inside to outside ,

I have breen meaning to try  a couple  E cores I got a while back
The question is.......what  do I use for a input core.
The input  core would have to be added to the coil after the output coil and the flux gap.



Another thing that might work  with this kind  of coil.
If an extra winding  was placed in the gap  between the  input  and output cores  this  winding would either aid  the flux in jumping or inhibit it depending on its polarity  ......it could  be an inductive triode.

gary

I am thinking it would be really cool to  use  a bifilar JT as the input winding  of one of these coils.
If the  input  core and gap were tuned right  we would end up  with a string  of  pulses with a very high rate of change.........these pulses should  be usable   on  the caps and rods  of a small hairpin


gary

Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: resonanceman on January 04, 2010, 06:32:03 PM
No need to use diodes when you have Edison DC  generator with commutator  ::)
Reversals was not possible at all because commutator was acting as second spark gap - btw this is why commutator was invented - to prevent AC ha ha, of course by accident .
What is happening with magnetic field of solenoid if circuit suddenly is opened on both ends ?
It has to dissipate somehow....
Btw capacitor can also be a gap in circuit...

Forest

By Edison generator do you mean  normal old fashoned DC generator?

I can see how a DC generator could  be modified to make a string  of DC pulses .........just remove all but 1 or 2 windings.
I am not sure that those pulses would  have a high enough rate of change to replace a sparkgap.........maybe they would.



I have no idea how a cap could  be used as a gap  ........can you explain that one  more?


gary
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: Magluvin on January 04, 2010, 06:55:20 PM
Cap Gap.   I read that you can use a "blown" cap for a gap.  Weird. Wasnt much explaining there.
But I imagine that the cap has an over, or under in this case, voltage leak, where the cap charges up to the point of leak breach and discharges. But I would think that whatever is going on inside cannot be a good thing, especially after a good while that gap either gets bigger and or carbonized and your left trying to make a new blown cap for replacement. Thats no fun. I may as well by batteries
That one needs explanation.

Mags gap cap
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: Magluvin on January 04, 2010, 07:01:09 PM
Hey Gary,  How about surge devices? There are different kinds. There are cap type that have a cut in them, I suppose that is the cap gap they are speaking of. And there are zener type, like a double zener. And others. I will have a looky and see what is available.

mags gap caps
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: Magluvin on January 04, 2010, 07:07:14 PM
Yo Gary   check it
http://www.spectrumcontrol.com/catalog/emc.asp

We may have lift off.

Cap gaps.  Thats funny

Magz
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: jadaro2600 on January 04, 2010, 07:15:14 PM
If it's atmosphereic you're wanting, imagine the a layer of atmosphere you want to tap, create the spark gap in that pressure environment with those types of gasses?

Now, take into account the corona discharge at that pressure, and you may have better results.

In my opinion, this device can be operated on voltage, expending minimal current.  There are studies which suggest the electrons flow very slowly - i think this is the key to understanding teslas longitudinal waves - since electrons respresent current, their slow speed indicated that standing waves can be created with very minimal flow.

After all, in radio waves, their source is pulses ( AC ), and they travel very far.
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: Magluvin on January 04, 2010, 07:25:42 PM
http://www.cooperpower.com/Products/Components/Surge/
gap less mov

http://www.newark.com/bourns/2027-09-blf/2-pole-gas-discharge-tube/dp/75K9369?in_merch=Popular%20Gas%20Discharge%20Tubes%20%28GDT%29&MER=PPSO_N_P_GasDischargeTibes%28GDT%29_None
Gas discharge device

http://www.mouser.com/Circuit-Protection/TVS-Diodes-Transient-Voltage-Suppressors/_/N-5g3g?P=1z0x7u6

Transient voltage supr.

Mags cap caps
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: Magluvin on January 04, 2010, 07:30:07 PM
Jadaro
One problem there Jad, Teslas was Impulse DC  not ac.  The impulse of high tension dc crossing a gap, or being switched on, produces these compnents we are seaching for. Tesla abandoned ac for this. 

Mags cap gap
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: Magluvin on January 04, 2010, 07:44:06 PM
These look like what we may want, not sure, but they are pre made tiny spark gaps tuned for peak voltages and rated in kilo amps
http://www.circuitprotection.com/gdt.asp

Mags cap gaps
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: Magluvin on January 04, 2010, 07:48:45 PM
A good read on these gas discharge devices. These are more for circuit boards, component level protection but thats what we want, portable power.
http://www.citel.us/gas_distcharge_tubes_overview.html

Mags cap gaps     I just like the ring of it.
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: forest on January 04, 2010, 08:49:57 PM
As Don Smith mentioned capacitor is a break of circuit.What Tesla found was discovered before for example by Edison.Tesla only perfected method by using resonance.
No reversal of current is done by commutator or chemical battery of special capacitor like electrolytic one.
Edison experiments are crucial to free energy understanding.It's perfectly clear that Edison discovered pure magnetic phenomena of waves supported by external magnetic field (Earth field).Not transverse waves.
Radiant electricity = etheric force
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: forest on January 04, 2010, 08:51:25 PM
Read this thread : http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/5132-1872-elihu-thomson-anyone-got-document-scientific-american-1872-a.html
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: jeanna on January 04, 2010, 09:03:51 PM
Hi all,
It seems to me we already have something very close.

The jtc with secondary is very close to the hairpin circuit.
If you try to draw your secondary circuit the way tesla drew his I think you will see this.
I have switched over, because it makes such good sense.

If 1.2v going to 2,000 volts at 1.2khz is too low, I am at a loss.
If you cannot figure how to increase it without starting higher, I think you are going to blow yourself up!

Every element you will need in the hairpin circuit is already there, except for the plasma.
And that is easy if you want it.
It is easy to break the circuit open and get some plasma.
This will let you know if breaking the circuit or an additional series inductor is what you need to increase the volts.

AFAIK the only real limit is the original frequency.
It appears to me that the original frequency gets "used up" when you add a load.

Great thread Gary!!

jeanna

btw Karl Palsness did a very nice replication.
This is the short direct version.
http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=Palsness#p/u/4/rDWF50fUoYY (http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=Palsness#p/u/4/rDWF50fUoYY)
j
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: Magluvin on January 04, 2010, 09:25:03 PM
Hi Jeanna
I suppose, and I had just wrote this in Teslas car thread, that i am more interested in Teslas independent recievers that pulled power without transmitters, after they demolished his tower and lab. He worked with these and eventually got it to run a motor and planned to distribute them to all in his last dream of dreams. It is what he ran the Peirce Arrow with I would say. But what freq and what means was he able to accomplish this? I venture to say that he already had it in his previous receivers and just figured out the tuning for what already existed in natures freq to get it working.
I really dont want sparks and streamers, although it may look cool riding down the road as if the car is spewing white fire all over. Beats neon.
But the idea of Impulse DC spark creating these effects is worth experimenting to get closer to the answers.
The JT, is this AC you are working with?

Mags cap gaps     Still sounds good. =]
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: resonanceman on January 04, 2010, 09:25:32 PM
These look like what we may want, not sure, but they are pre made tiny spark gaps tuned for peak voltages and rated in kilo amps
http://www.circuitprotection.com/gdt.asp

Mags cap gaps


Magluvin

You are good at finding things 

:)

The first gas discharge tube  you found was the one that they tried on the other thread

This one looks better though ....... I would think we would want the one of the largest  we can get  and still have the low DC flash over point  ....this is 75 V    very easy to make  with a JT
The larger size would help  dissipate more heat.
I think these things  are designed for an occasional pulse.......not constant use.

On a larger JT we could try a small cap in front  of the discharge tube  ........it would  add a bit of punch when it reaches 75V


gary
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: Magluvin on January 04, 2010, 09:30:51 PM
Punch is a good word for impulse.

Mags gas gap     =]
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: Magluvin on January 04, 2010, 09:53:47 PM
Hey forest
I see what you posted. I had seen it before also. But I cannot say it is the same thing for sure. The thing with teslas
way was more pure. He knew that the dc impulse from DC gens were a problem and he knew that a couple other experienced this effect. But he took it and danced with it.  The real key is not to transmit power and receive it, but  to amplify it and make it usable. Tesla many times talked of the "extra coil" and tuning of the spark gap which determined the direction of aetheric energy flow. I really need to study it more, but I have a good basic Idea of what is going on.
Im not really sure Edison had a solid grip on this as Tesla did.
But it is all interesting and it is all valid. And thanks for the cap gap suggestion.  =]  It opened the eyes to other ways.

Mags gas gaps cap bapz
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: jeanna on January 04, 2010, 10:17:10 PM
@mags,
Yes, the joule thief makes pulses measured over time.
This is what Tesla wanted and he made it very clear that the faster the rate of change ( aka the steeper the slope) the better.

He never used the term DC in the writings I have seen.
He used the term AC and meant lots of things by this including "pulsed DC"
His term for DC was "steady" currents.

So, I have called it AC myself, but that was not what I was talking about.
I came to learn that it was pulsed DC that we get from the secondary AND it is pulsed DC that we want.

About the sending and receiving. I think we are trapped at the moment.
We will not be permitted to send the signals that we need to receive to make the replications of thee tesla car etc.
So, we need to keep it all inside so to speak.

I am grateful for all those who want to keep working on this like Dr Stiffler et al, but it needs to stay small and personal for the time.

@Gary,
Quote
I think these things  are designed for an occasional pulse.......not constant use.
I agree with some disappointment.
It still is worth a try if they do not cost too much.

@all,
In one of  Karl Palsness' video he clearly states that the copper bars need to be substantial.
He says you cannot skimp.
He uses a very heavy 'wire' which my hardware store sells for about $2 per foot.

If one of us were to connect this heavy copper to the secondary wires, we would have a very similar aparatus.
We already have the same type of arrangement using the pulses derived from a jt instead of from a spark discharge.

I already have 2 major projects going, but I did buy a thinner gauge of this heavy wire in october, and I could just hook it up and try it.

There is evidently an important difference with the bar attached across the top and not. Karl keeps it across the top but I was unable to hear his reason.

jeanna
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: Magluvin on January 04, 2010, 11:15:54 PM
Jeanna
Have you read the Secrets of Cold War Technology? I first read it from Lindemanns excerpts.
Tesla found that charging large caps, DC of course, and discharging them on copper plates, the effect caused a stinging blast across the front of his body and face. Further experiments drew him to the conclusion that the true radiant energy was a release of high tension DC and ac did not cause it. He used a high tension dc generator in his experiments as a source. He used a make and break setup to make repetitive pulse discharges. But the greatest effect was when he used a spark gap that had a large magnet with poles focused across the gap to , what he called , quench the spark in order to strip the electrons from the spark stream as to not allow any currents to jump back across the gap, like a bemf spike. It stated that he abandoned ac once he got into this new dc Impulse ideas. He found that ac did not cause the effect he was producing.  Edisons DC generators when running produced a few thousand volts and when they would hit the switches, the same effect was produced and everything metal produced white spikes. And some that were throwing the switch would be killed by the impulse that occurred. They later used automatic relays to do the job. Teslas Ac generation did not cause this effect. He and Edison fought it out on which was better and safer, as we all have read, and the outcome was clear.
But Tesla was fascinated by this effect and soon abandoned all ac works for this DC impulse effect. He soon mastered it and the tesla coils we know of, are not even his device as we know it today. 2 things distinguish the tesla coil we know of and the real tesla way,  a high tension dc source, and magnetically quenched spark gaps. You can see in some pat. the lil V shapes with n and s on them on wither side of the gaps, and the great use of a generator as a source, as some labeled in polarity. True these devices we have make great sparks and bolts, but he had something else going on. There is so much more also in those books
Its a great read and I highly suggest them. It will change what you know.
Free Energy Secrets of Cold Electricity   Peter Lindemann   and  Secrets of Cold War Technology.

By the way, Are the JT sparks cold to the touch?  =]   

Mags
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: jeanna on January 05, 2010, 04:09:28 AM
MrMags,
I think you misunderstood what I was/am saying.

I have read the Inventions, Researches, and Writings of Nicola Tesla of 1894, a book compiled by a friend of Tesla's which includes transcripts of his excellent lectures.

I do not like spark gaps.
The difficulties tesla outlines are dreadful.
Eric Dollard and P Lindemann made some wonderful replications as did Karl Palsness.
It would make everyone deaf to the human voice.
That sound of the spark gap is extreme noise pollution and at mid range or voice range.
And, imo not something that belongs in a house.
So, if you want to never hear people talking do a lot of work with spark gaps.

I am interested in that little spark gap thing which is enclosed, and I think it would be sweet if it works.

My very earnest hope is that the sharp spikes produced by a good jt secondary circuit will be an adequate solid state copy of the spark gap ...buried in boiled oil and blown away by a magnet.

My lidmotor's jeanna's light replication has about 2,000 volts and makes a spark when the 2 ends of the secondary get near metal of the opposite polarity/ opposite side of the secondary.

Quote
By the way, Are the JT sparks cold to the touch?  =]   
yes, they are.


Which is why I am looking for what to do to make them hot.
So the next thing I make after I light my entire house with AAA batteries, is a heater .
 An induction immersion water heater is what I am thinking about.

The hairpin is a circuit that I believe can be made to work for us, which is why I joined this thread.

thank you,

jeanna

PS
With all that said,
if Gary and the others who have been here today really want to see what a spark gap can do and stick with the spark gap itself and leave the ss thing to another thread, I will back away and peek in every once in a while.

jeanna
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: resonanceman on January 05, 2010, 04:45:30 AM
MrMags,
I think you misunderstood what I was/am saying.

I have read the Inventions, Researches, and Writings of Nicola Tesla of 1894, a book compiled by a friend of Tesla's which includes transcripts of his excellent lectures.

I do not like spark gaps.
The difficulties tesla outlines are dreadful.
Eric Dollard and P Lindemann made some wonderful replications as did Karl Palsness.
It would make everyone deaf to the human voice.
That sound of the spark gap is extreme noise pollution and at mid range or voice range.
And, imo not something that belongs in a house.
So, if you want to never hear people talking do a lot of work with spark gaps.

I am interested in that little spark gap thing which is enclosed, and I think it would be sweet if it works.

My very earnest hope is that the sharp spikes produced by a good jt secondary circuit will be an adequate solid state copy of the spark gap ...buried in boiled oil and blown away by a magnet.

My lidmotor's jeanna's light replication has about 2,000 volts and makes a spark when the 2 ends of the secondary get near metal of the opposite polarity/ opposite side of the secondary.
yes, they are.


Which is why I am looking for what to do to make them hot.
So the next thing I make after I light my entire house with AAA batteries, is a heater .
 An induction immersion water heater is what I am thinking about.

The hairpin is a circuit that I believe can be made to work for us, which is why I joined this thread.

thank you,

jeanna

PS
With all that said,
if Gary and the others who have been here today really want to see what a spark gap can do and stick with the spark gap itself and leave the ss thing to another thread, I will back away and peek in every once in a while.

jeanna

Jeanna

I think it would  be great if an unmodified JT could drive  a hairpin.
I am not  convinced  it can happen  but I  would love to be surprised.

I agree with you about the spark gaps ...... but it might be necessary to use them until we can find a way around them.

Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: resonanceman on January 05, 2010, 04:57:33 AM
does anyone here know how to test the power of  something like  a hairpin  to make  sure it is radiant energy?

I mean  without  electrocuting  anyone

If  a JT does put out  a spike  with enough  rate of change to drive a hairpin with no spark gap.......my best  shot is  using  a MOT as a JT

I don't have a meter that can read the voltage  I got  when I tried it before...... 

gary
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: Mk1 on January 05, 2010, 05:05:25 AM
@gary

First i must stress the point that you can kill your self with that idea, studying the hair pin circuit without a spark gap is needed first because how else can you know how it works , before thinking of modification .

In the demonstration , it is clearly said that without the spark gap , just high voltage will kill you ...

Mark
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: jeanna on January 05, 2010, 05:13:25 AM

I think it would  be great if an unmodified JT could drive  a hairpin.
I am not  convinced  it can happen  but I  would love to be surprised.


I do not know what you mean by "drive" a hairpin.
Please explain.
thank you,

jeanna
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: resonanceman on January 05, 2010, 05:18:47 AM
@gary

First i must stress the point that you can kill your self with that idea, studying the hair pin circuit without a spark gap is needed first because how else can you know how it works , before thinking of modification .

In the demonstration , it is clearly said that without the spark gap , just high voltage will kill you ...



Mark

Mark

Yes I know

That is why I was asking  for a way to be sure of the difference

Even with a spark gap we stil need a way to make sure that we have radiant energy  not  hot energy ....... because something might not be working  quite right

gary
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: jeanna on January 05, 2010, 05:47:48 AM
In the demonstration , it is clearly said that without the spark gap , just high voltage will kill you ...

Also in the demonstration, Karl grabs hold of both sides and says, "but see? this is ok."
AND that is when the bar across the top is in place.

It was that way throughout the (5 part)  demonstration where he was lighting lights simultaneously.
In fact after he said that, and he said that with the bar across the top , which is basically a horseshoe, he said Tesla used this for curing disease and specifically mentioned the C word.
He said this cure was accomplished by putting the 2 sides of copper bar on either side of the tumor.

fyi.

jeanna

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=7617.msg186619#msg186619 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=7617.msg186619#msg186619)
On that page I call it tesla's 3 lamp experiment, but in his own words he talks about this to a group of electrical engineers in London 1892.
The third picture is the one with the bar across the top= the horseshoe.
jeanna
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: onthecuttingedge2005 on January 05, 2010, 08:32:02 AM
you have to have about 1 amp to stop the heart, there is a trade off on HV electricity, raising the voltage causes the amperage to drop, decrease the amperage and the voltage rises. for transformers.

this is not the case for Lightning which contains 'both' high voltage and high ampers. it is totally bad ass.

Jerry ;)

Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: Magluvin on January 05, 2010, 08:47:52 AM
Sorry Resonanceman, I suppose I am in the wrong thread. If you have any questions or comments, Spark me out at a Tesla thread, for now I will quench my sparks there.  I like where things were heading.

Magluvin
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: forest on January 05, 2010, 09:02:48 AM
Magluvin,

Jenna is right - spark gap should be replaced by better make&break controller.
Tesla's own path was : first spark gap,then spark gap quenched,then multiple spark gap in series,then rotary interrupter then rotary mercury interrupter then special vacuum tube.
Every sound or light emanating from make&break controller is a waste.
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: Magluvin on January 05, 2010, 09:50:42 AM
Forest
Actually I thought we were looking for the better spark gap earlier. I did some very quick research in surge suppression and spike collectors just after coming to the conclusion that those just may be the lil buggers that we are looking for, especially prepared, calibrated, high voltage rated, high current little zap zaps. Even you mentioned a capgap. Is that not an improvement? Or is it a step backwards from what you just posted?
To some my ideas and findings will be shut down and put down. Bah, so what. I made a couple friends. And a couple critics. This place is full of that. I wont know who they are till they bark or wag their tail.
I made a single comment here to Resman and it went from there. It seemed to go well and my thoughts and ideas were accepted. I was happy with the little progress toward a common goal,  a goal set here in THIS thread before I arrived.
I am all about making it better. Its the way I work. I will not step backwards till I know it is necessary.
So if your previous post is earnest, then your suggestion of a capgap should be an honest improvement over a spark gap that Tesla used and accepted of that, as Resman and I have taken it, And in an instant we jumped further than that to make things better. And maybe a zener diode or series of diodes that make that gap silent and unidirectional would work as well. Cannot say at this time, its just an idea. Im full of them. My cup overflows.
There are many that do not and WILL not accept the Tesla ideas that I present. Ask Tito, he cant get anyone to see what he sees. The walls are big and strong. Most dont have the initiative look to the otherside,  they are satisfied with the walls just the way they are. They expect him to tear them down for them, since they see that he is good at it.
I am fine with how things are and I will go on.

Magluvin
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: Magluvin on January 05, 2010, 10:41:45 AM
Loner
Thanks for the post. Very interesting idea. Can you refer me to that thread you speak of on the subject?
And thanks again for the positive view. =]

Mags
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: forest on January 05, 2010, 10:53:59 AM
Sorry,I was not clear ,maybe because it's not all clear to me either.I meant "capgap"  isa capacitor which could be charged only one way, unidirectional, non-symmetrical like electrolytic one OR a circuit with diodes or other elements around normal capacitor to make capacitor discharge  unidirectional DC impulse !
Sort of replacing large DC battery with small but a lot faster DC CAPACITOR or DC LC circuit.
Man,that one single issue took years for Tesla to realize and he never said about it !
Tesla experimented with high frequency AC in 1890 but in 1895 he really understood radiant energy (that year his laboratory was burned !)
What do you trying to do with spark gap ? You will have plenty of oscillations and alternations in spark gap producing a wide range of EM radiation and sound.Is this what you would like to have ?

Do no trust me, trust Tesla !

Read this http://www.tfcbooks.com/tesla/nt_on_ac.htm#A7 and tell me what do you think...

Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: forest on January 05, 2010, 10:58:08 AM
The final frontier...here are the voyagers of  shockwaves...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKPrGxB1Kzc

would it be possible with simple alternations  like those producing a waves after the shark  tail   ? ::)

Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: Magluvin on January 05, 2010, 11:06:45 AM
Forest
Thanks very much for that! ;]  That is good stuff. Im going to dig in later today. Just a quick look over and if you noticed the pancake coils in the transmitter and receiver, they are oppositely wound. I had just read something about that and there it is. Ill find what it was and refer it to you as to the importance of that. ;]
Resman and I asked you earlier what you meant on the capgap but you didnt reply. Now you have. =]

Thanks a lot Forest. Good man.

Magluvin
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: Magluvin on January 05, 2010, 11:11:37 AM
Forest
You are surpising me to the end, that was a great vid!  Very!

Thanks for the tail wags. ;]  From here you are held very high on my list of good people.

Magluvin
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: jadaro2600 on January 05, 2010, 07:32:21 PM
I think those high intensity discharges caused the sensations it does because the voltage is attempting to equalize with anything it finds utilizing a suitable path to do so means grabbing at anything it can - one giant corona discharge.

I had the most bizarre dream about this, someone had suspended a hollow tube below a power line and attached an antenna to the tube, ..there was a massive discharge in the tube and all around it ..everything started turning purple.
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: Magluvin on January 05, 2010, 07:47:27 PM
Jad
Tesla said that it went through glass, copper sheets that he tried to shield himself with. He said it passed through everything. And that is how he knew his power transmitter from 1 tower would be able to be received around the world by his power receivers.
But once he got it to pulse above a certain freq, the pulses were no longer felt.

Magluvin
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: Magluvin on January 05, 2010, 07:50:58 PM
Jad
Read  Free energy secrets of cold electricity  Peter A Lindemann  then you will know   =]

Magluvin
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: onthecuttingedge2005 on January 05, 2010, 07:57:53 PM
HAD to butt in again.  Quick info.  To stop the human heart only requires 75mA!   This is the value warned about in EE courses, and though I haven't "Proven" it by stopping a heart, but I have no reason to disbelieve it.

Just an old piece of data I consider important....

Hi Loner.

that is why I said 'About', here is what I said;

you have to have about 1 amp to stop the heart, there is a trade off on HV electricity, raising the voltage causes the amperage to drop, decrease the amperage and the voltage rises. for transformers.

this is not the case for Lightning which contains 'both' high voltage and high amperes. it is totally bad ass.

on average everybodies electrolytes are different, if you lack electrolytes your skin becomes less conductive, it requires more current to electrocute someone with a lack of electrolytes, this is why they sponge your head during an electrocutions.

1 amp is the standard in the electrical value as an Electrician's safety range. at least that is what I recall from the Electrical trade, might be 75mA's but it is rounded off for general safety training.

thanks for the info.
Jerry ;)
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: jeanna on January 05, 2010, 09:58:20 PM
I don't mean to intrude, but a little thing that was handy in work that I did (and am doing...) was a very small spark gap with electromagnet boost on the quench field.  Most will find this hard to accept, but a neon bulb is a spark gap.  Standard bulb has two wires, that can have a mag field applied.  Forcing a field between two already formed fields causes compression, etc.  Not exactly low voltage, but lower than most "open-air" gaps.  IF you play, tuning via electromagnet strength is what I found easiest, instead of trying to find the "Right" bulb.  You know there is too much "Real" current by lighting, etc, etc, etc.

Just something I came across and thought I should mention.  Also, to avoid HV, always take the output from the Hairpin across the "Shorted" loop, after the "Isolation" caps, regardless of exact design.  Normal HV cannot exist there, so the output is always safe.

Of course, this is old data, previously posted, but I just thought I should re-mention it.  I'll shut up now...
Actually loner,
If you don't mind I would like to know more precisely to what you are referring.

1- How are you making an EM boost on the quench field.
And what is the quench field?

2- How do you force a field between two already formed fields?

3- What method are you using to measure your tuning via EM strength?

4-  please identify the "shorted" loop and the "isolation caps"

thank you,

jeanna
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: Magluvin on January 06, 2010, 01:29:31 AM
Jeanna
It was like I said before.  I know you must not have gotten into it yet, Lindemanns book tells the story and also Secrets of cold war technology. Its DC unidirectional impulse. Quenching the gap kind is kind of like a poor mans super diode. Tesla tried other ways like using air pressure to blow it out. But he ended up with the magnetic way that has the N and S poles near the gap and it strips the electrons from the stream leaving the pure radiant electical potential there. By doing this, any reversal of current in the gap is canceled. This when he really got the full effect to happen. At lower freq than 100 micro sec there were different effects like cool breezes, heightened awareness, effects that caused the whole lab to glow, burning sensations of the skin and face.. Different effects at different pulse freq. At higher freq than 100 micro sec everything was good, no stinging, now glow no breezes. and caused no harm. Now he planned to use that for transmission of power. Some stories claim that he planned on 2 towers, 1 on each end of the earth. But the real deal was just the 1 tower due to the fact that the radiant energy passed through all matter, glass, copper sheets, stone mountains and the earth itself.
You should check it out it is an awesome read. Highly recommended. He later founf that he did not need the transmitter and the radiant energy was readily available using the receivers he developed in his last days and that was what he used to power the Peirce Arrow electric car.
This is what I am very interested in. As you can imagine it would be a highly suppressed idea.

mags
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: resonanceman on January 06, 2010, 03:17:11 AM
Actually loner,
If you don't mind I would like to know more precisely to what you are referring.

1- How are you making an EM boost on the quench field.
And what is the quench field?

2- How do you force a field between two already formed fields?

3- What method are you using to measure your tuning via EM strength?

4-  please identify the "shorted" loop and the "isolation caps"

thank you,

jeanna

I  think I will take  a shot at some of those questrions

Loner ......please correct me if I am wrong


Tesla  used  magnets  to force his  spark gaps to quench  faster.
Loner  is using  an electromagnet for a similar function.
(Great idea  )  :)


The  shorted loo[p is the 2 bars of the hairpin  when the top bar is in place ....the top bar shorts  the 2 vertical bars forming  a loop.

The isolation caps are the things " stuck " to the bottoms of the vertical rods

```````````````````````````````

I have a question........

Does anyone  have  any theorys about why  the top bar  does not short out  the radiant energy? 

I remember  a comment  about  how the vertical bars  have to be heavy and that the bars are not a place to scriomp.

I also remember   in a Bedini  circuit  a particular wire had to be heavy ti carry the radiant energy.

It seems  that  radiant energy  is  sensitive to resistance ........ but  that does not make sense if it will travel through  everything with no losses.

Unless........ it has 2 forms....... transmitted  and  conducted ...... for lack of better names


```````````````````````````````````````````

I just ordered  these books

Lost Science (GBC) - Gerry Vassilatos

The Inventions,
Researches, and Writings of
Nikola Tesla

Both books were mentioned  in the  palsness video in Jeannas post.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

does anyone  know  what kind of caps the isolatioon caps at the bottoms of the rods are?

Are they door nob caps?
Any idea on the voltage rating?


gary
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: resonanceman on January 06, 2010, 03:43:11 AM
Quote
You should check it out it is an awesome read. Highly recommended. He later founf that he did not need the transmitter and the radiant energy was readily available using the receivers he developed in his last days and that was what he used to power the Peirce Arrow electric car.
This is what I am very interested in. As you can imagine it would be a highly suppressed idea.


Magluvin

I had never heard that Tesla had developed a  reciever that did not need a tranmitter ....... finding out how he did that would  be my ultimate goal..........but there is alot I have to learn  before I even think  about building something like that .......

gary
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: sparks on January 06, 2010, 03:47:11 AM
  Faraday tells us that the faster we change the magnetic field around a conductor the higher the induced voltage.
The more massive the conductor being effected by the magnetic field disruption than the more polarization of the charge or the more voltage appearing on the ends of that conductor.
In other words if you are going through the effort of changing the magnetic field about a conductor you might as well get your moneys worth and make sure your magnetic field shifting is effecting the most mass of the conductor as you can. If you make sure your magnetic disruption or field winding influences a large conductor and the only current that flows is outside the alternator conductors than your impedance is real low.  Alternators are not configured like this.  To increase the mass of copper under the influence of a changing magnetic field they put one end of a loop in one slot and then bend it over and put it in another slot going the other way.  Then bring it back to the first slot and over and over until we have a coil built up.  So what happens is when current flows in the load circuit internal currents flow in the alternator coil.  A bucking magnetic field is created and the engine has to work harder to cause the magnetic field changes due to the Lenz effect  (not law mind you effect).  Dumb just plain old dumb.
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: nueview on January 06, 2010, 04:00:26 AM
 
jeanna i keep trying to tell you how it works and to show all the effects but you want to complicate it

it works by EMF and MMF relation to each as a part of the matter make up a hairpin circuit is a capacitive generator in pure form to plates are mounted on a disc and two plates are stationary charge the plates dc with high voltage commutator the shaft plates out to a long flouresent tube and rotate the plates bubbles of light will appear in the tube no power is drawn just moved open the circuit and it will creat so much drag it will stall a motor other effects are able to be demonstrated as well what you want is standing current on moving voltage this is the last time i will write about this.
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: resonanceman on January 06, 2010, 04:59:32 AM

jeanna i keep trying to tell you how it works and to show all the effects but you want to complicate it

it works by EMF and MMF relation to each as a part of the matter make up a hairpin circuit is a capacitive generator in pure form to plates are mounted on a disc and two plates are stationary charge the plates dc with high voltage commutator the shaft plates out to a long flouresent tube and rotate the plates bubbles of light will appear in the tube no power is drawn just moved open the circuit and it will creat so much drag it will stall a motor other effects are able to be demonstrated as well what you want is standing current on moving voltage this is the last time i will write about this.

nueview

Would  you like to see technology like we deal  with on this site  grow>

Would you like to see this kind of  stuff go mainstream?

If  you do   I would  suggest  that you  be paitant with Jeanna.
She  thinks in details .........she  doesn't  understand   until the pieces fit together.

Why would it be  good for you to be patient?
When  Jeanna  gets it ...........she  really gets it .........and she will
Translate what you teach her into  words that everyone here can understand.
Her  ability to grasp the concept then explain it clearly  is  a big part  of the success of the JT thread.

gary


Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: resonanceman on January 06, 2010, 05:26:04 AM
Sparks
Wouldn't it be even  better  to make  the small wire bifilar and connect  the the start of one wire with the end of the other.......just like  we do with JTs
I have found  that when a coil is wound like this and  receives an impulse  the  current in each wire  support eachother

I believe  if your coil was bifilar you would have a Tesla  pancake coil


gary



Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: resonanceman on January 06, 2010, 05:49:15 AM
I do not know what you mean by "drive" a hairpin.
Please explain.
thank you,

jeanna

Jeanna

A circuit needs  enough  energy to  get  the job done

If  you do not  have enough energy to drive  a  new secondary on a JT  that  secondary  acts as a choke.

I believe that the  hairpin  in the  video  in the link you provided  was driven  by a high voltage tramsformer


gary
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: jeanna on January 06, 2010, 05:57:28 AM
Oh ok.
I was not sure if the drive was being accomplished by the caps or the spark .

But, you say it was neither.
It was driven by the wall mains power through a high voltage transformer.

Thank you.

jeanna
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: resonanceman on January 06, 2010, 06:55:56 AM
Oh ok.
I was not sure if the drive was being accomplished by the caps or the spark .

But, you say it was neither.
It was driven by the wall mains power through a high voltage transformer.

Thank you.

jeanna

Jeanna

I didn't mean to say it was neither

everything in the circuit is driven by something.

I was trying to answer  the question in the context  it was asked.

The idea was to try to replace the transformer and sparkgap with a JT

That is why  I mentioned  the transformer

In the conventional  hairpin  as I understand it  .....the transformer drives the  sparkgap........the pulses from the spark gap drive the caps



`````````````````````````````````

I tried a few expermentrs  with the pancake  coils I made back  on the earth battery thread......
I tried to see  if they would act like your conical

no luck yet

gary




Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: jeanna on January 06, 2010, 07:19:58 AM


The idea was to try to replace the transformer and sparkgap with a JT
exactly.
Quote
That is why  I mentioned  the transformer
In the conventional  hairpin  as I understand it  .....the transformer drives the  sparkgap........the pulses from the spark gap drive the caps
I will read it again.
I thought the induction coil made the high voltage which 'fills' the caps which make the sparks.



`````````````````````````````````

Quote
I tried a few expermentrs  with the pancake  coils I made back  on the earth battery thread......
I tried to see  if they would act like your conical

I have thought about them a lot.
If the smallest part of the cone is the most energetic which I believe it is, then the fact that it works best with the toroid 'hanging' on the tip makes me think the cone shape is essential.

Tesla made wardencliff in a cone shape and the pancake patents were about the radiant sending and receiving units (wardencliff) , I put them together to mean the pancake was never flat. It was just projected flat on the page but was in fact a cone.

The really interesting thing I just re-realized is that the receiving end is turned the reverse direction from  the sending cone. (Someone just mentioned it.)
I just saw that when I made an hourglass and made the 2 coils wound in the opposite way it snuffed out the voltage.
Now, this fact makes a lot of sense to me.

If the receiver coil is wound in the reverse way it should kill it when it is added to the sending side. HA It received the volts right there on the sending unit!

I will wind a new hourglass some day if this never gets far enough.

thank you,

jeanna
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: sparks on January 06, 2010, 01:55:17 PM
@resonanceman

     In good time.  ;)  Take a Tesla pancake coil and set it on its side.  Look at it.  What you have is a very short conductor with a huge cross section and surface area.   When the haripin coil is placed so that its magnetic field disruption intersects the superthin large diameter  and surface area conductor you get the most bang for the buck.  Positive on top of the conductor negative on the bottom.  Lots of polarization of charge.   Electrons dont have to go too far before they find themselves on a capacitor plate.  Just head towards the end of the conductor they are in already.
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: jadaro2600 on January 06, 2010, 05:35:54 PM
I'm a greatly embarrassed to ask this, but  can someone please post a newer circuit diagram of the device in question - I know this is supposed to be a prototyping thread, but the original circuit diagram is cryptic - there have been modern replications, but the details still elude me.

I think it would favor the idea to post a newer one.

Additionally, the idea of textual content of patents is to be able to 'see' the device without the use of pictures.  If a patent fails to materialize in the mind, then it shouldn't be patented ( and the author should consider outsourcing the description to a more knowledgeable diction of the subject matter at hand ).  Patents were created back in the days when images were hand drawn, copies were hard to come by, and textual information was the primary mode of long distance communication.
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: resonanceman on January 06, 2010, 06:50:23 PM
exactly.I will read it again.
I thought the induction coil made the high voltage which 'fills' the caps which make the sparks.





Jeanna

Yes........the caps will be filling  as the voltage rises
However at this point  the caps are not needed.

If we  do not have enough power to drive  the voltage high enough  to cause  it to jump the spark  gap .......nothing happens

If we remove  the caps from the circuit   the voltage will rise  faster and jump the gap sooner........but then it is done.......

The function of the caps  are to isolate the rods of the hairpin  from  the majority of the " normal " electricity and  to give the radiant energy  an easy path to follow

For " normal " electricity  the caps work as  current limiting caps. They stop MOST of the normal electricity......the  bar across the top shorts out the rest.

gary
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: resonanceman on January 06, 2010, 06:59:23 PM
The more massive the conductor being effected by the magnetic field disruption than the more polarization of the charge or the more voltage appearing on the ends of that conductor.


I have been thinking  about this.
Perhaps this is a reason  the Gray conversion tube has plates instead of wires.
I have just learned that capacitance is important  with radiant energy..... plates would have much more capacitance than  wires

gary
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: resonanceman on January 06, 2010, 07:09:45 PM

I just saw that when I made an hourglass and made the 2 coils wound in the opposite way it snuffed out the voltage.
Now, this fact makes a lot of sense to me.



Jeanna

did  you try reversing  the connections on the second coil ?

gary
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: resonanceman on January 06, 2010, 07:16:17 PM
@resonanceman

     In good time.  ;)  Take a Tesla pancake coil and set it on its side.  Look at it.  What you have is a very short conductor with a huge cross section and surface area.   When the haripin coil is placed so that its magnetic field disruption intersects the superthin large diameter  and surface area conductor you get the most bang for the buck.  Positive on top of the conductor negative on the bottom.  Lots of polarization of charge.   Electrons dont have to go too far before they find themselves on a capacitor plate.  Just head towards the end of the conductor they are in already.


Sparks

I Like  the idea

I will test it as soon as I have some indication of radiant energy.

gary
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: resonanceman on January 06, 2010, 07:23:43 PM
can someone please post a newer circuit diagram of the device in question

Jadaro

I am working on it.

I am working from  related knowledge , videos and theories right now.

According to the video  Jeanna posted  a drawing is on page 128 of one of the books I have on the way.

I will redraw that picture  and post it when I get it.


gary
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: resonanceman on January 06, 2010, 09:08:29 PM
I have came  up with a theory of what is  going on with the  hairpin circuit and radiant energy in general.

To start I would like to point out a recurring theme in the physical .
An  atom  has a nucleus with atoms rotating around it.
If we change  the names  we can  see the  same structure in other places
If  we call the nucleas a central mass   and  the  electrons  simply  objects orbiting  the central mass ....then our solar system looks like an atom  .......the earth and moon look a lot like a  hydrogen atom
The  galaxy is said to  have a black hole in its center .,,,,,,,if so......it too looks like  an atom...... a very complex atom  but it is still  a central mass with objects rotating  around it.

Is it not  conceivable that this  recurring  structure extends at least one level smaller than we can see?
What if  electrons  have a central mass  and  objects orbiting it?

My theory  is  that this is in fact true
The electrons of electrons are small enough to have  no measurable  mass  I believe that they are comprise what Bearden calls displacement current.

Like  the  electrons  of  the atoms  these electrons  stay put in their orbits  for the most part but  like the electrons  of atoms they also  can  be moved from  atom to atom.



Radiant energy is illusive because it is the  second order of electricity
The first order  is easy for  us to see.
The  second order comes into play  after the first order is put into play.
The  second order is usually obscured by the first order....... normal electricity


Because  this  energy  is of the second level.......current has been induced  from  the atoms  then the electrons this energy could be thought  of as hyper electricity
It would   be very  active
It would  recombine  with electrons  quickly once  the impulse  that pushed it out  of its orbits was removed.
In other words  it has to be kept moving  and  under pressure  all the time .......if it slows down ........it recombines with an atom

In practical term this means that   the hyper  electricity  is hyper  affected by  resistance  and  impedance........anything that slows it down kills the effect.
That is  why  good quality rods are needed  on the hairpin .....in fact   all the  conductors should be  large and  good quality.   The  actual secondary of  a JT  ( assuming  we get a JT to power  a hairpin ) should  be relatively heavy wire ....butr because it is where  the  hyper  electrons  are to be booted from there orbits they  should be under enough  presure to  keep going.
The  wire  between the  coil and the  isolation caps should be heavy
The  caps themselves should  be heavy .....I am thinking  of  plates of copper.
Because   the hyper electrons  have a high amplitude  and  no mass they pass through caps much more easily than normal  electricity ..... this is why  the isolation  caps  of the  hairpin  can provide it  with  an easy  path.



It looks to me like the  greatest  radiant energy  is  at  the lower parts of the rods of the  hairpin.
I believe  that  the  close you get to the rod across the  top the less power is available.......because  the radiant energy can go around  the loop easier than through the load.

One of the videos I watched  told about  the  hairpin  being able to power  a light bulb through very fine  wires....... the wired does not get hot.
I think that this is possible as long  as you have enough amplitude to keep  the hyper electrons in the hyper state   ,,,,,,,, until they start recombining  with atoms  they make no heat.
The relative resistance of the  light bulb slows them down and causes them change to normal electricity



gary


Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: jadaro2600 on January 06, 2010, 09:16:27 PM
Jadaro

I am working on it.

I am working from  related knowledge , videos and theories right now.

According to the video  Jeanna posted  a drawing is on page 128 of one of the books I have on the way.

I will redraw that picture  and post it when I get it.


gary

Thank you, I think the chilliqueen, jtc, etc will be a good way to power this at lower voltages, I think they can all incorporate rather well.
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: resonanceman on January 06, 2010, 09:52:56 PM
Thank you, I think the chilliqueen, jtc, etc will be a good way to power this at lower voltages, I think they can all incorporate rather well.

Jadaro

At first I did not remember that  JT

I have not had time to try it yet.........although  I did  get  the transistrors  for it 
I am going to try TIP3055  and TIP2955

in case  someone  else  does not remember
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8564.0

gary
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: jeanna on January 06, 2010, 11:58:28 PM
@gary,
Quote
One of the videos I watched  told about  the  hairpin  being able to power  a light bulb through very fine  wires....... the wired does not get hot.
I think that this is possible as long  as you have enough amplitude to keep  the hyper electrons in the hyper state   ,,,,,,,, until they start recombining  with atoms  they make no heat.
The relative resistance of the  light bulb slows them down and causes them change to normal electricity

gary

I like your explanation, Gary.

Just so I am not making a mistake about this term you are using,
by amplitude, do you mean the height of the voltage?
... meaning 1400v has higher amplitude than 400v??

thank you,

jeanna
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: resonanceman on January 07, 2010, 12:20:46 AM
@gary,I like your explanation, Gary.

Just so I am not making a mistake about this term you are using,
by amplitude, do you mean the height of the voltage?
... meaning 1400v has higher amplitude than 400v??

thank you,

jeanna

Jeanna

yes

 I did not want to use voltage  because it is  a term  used for normal electrricity

gary
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: jeanna on January 07, 2010, 12:34:46 AM
I'm a greatly embarrassed to ask this, but  can someone please post a newer circuit diagram of the device in question - I know this is supposed to be a prototyping thread, but the original circuit diagram is cryptic - there have been modern replications, but the details still elude me.

I think it would favor the idea to post a newer one.

No, but a quick look told me there is not one here yet so I am going to post Tesla's now.
I think it is really clear, but I am non linear so spatial pix are good for me.
Sorry jadaro, but here is the one drawn by Tesla.

3 ways to do this circuit:
the generator G is at the bottom of each
this leads to a transformer coil primary (P) which is stepped up to the secondary wires (S) that go to the caps.
The caps (C) do their dance and produce sparks (d and d)
lines b and b1 are the coper lines...

Then there are 3 different configurations for performing tests :
1- a spark at the top
2- no bar or discharge across the top
3- a bar across the top
jeanna
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: resonanceman on January 07, 2010, 12:37:21 AM
Thank you, I think the chilliqueen, jtc, etc will be a good way to power this at lower voltages, I think they can all incorporate rather well.

Jadaro   

I just got caught up on the chiliqueen circuit .

Not sure why you  recomended  it other than the SEC wireless video
The wireless stuff is impressive ......but I do not really understand  his  circuits .......
It clearly is wireless.........but is it radiant  energy?
I did not see anything that even gave me a hint about how it could fit into my  theory ........ but then again.....my theory could be dead wrong ...... We won't know until it is applied to actual circuits.

Come to think about it ......my theory  has nothing about transmiting  radiant energy......and at this point I have no clue about it.

gary
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: resonanceman on January 07, 2010, 01:01:33 AM
No, but a quick look told me there is not one here yet so I am going to post Tesla's now.
I think it is really clear, but I am non linear so spatial pix are good for me.
Sorry jadaro, but here is the one drawn by Tesla.

jeanna

Thanks Jeanna

I think that is the picture that I was  going to redraw.
It flashed on the screen for a half second or so........ I recognized it
I have seen it before.

What I remember about the picture is I tried to  figure it  out years ago  when I was looking over Teslas patents ......I had absolutely no idea what it was about.
:)


Now........if my theory is  correct......it is simple and straight forward.

I am tempted to  try building one  with a MOT  ( using AC from the line ).......but MOTs  have nothing to prevent  overloads.......so I could  end up with  a red hot smoking high voltage mess real fast

I think I will wait a while........maybe learn a bit more first


gary
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 07, 2010, 01:09:41 AM
I have came  up with a theory of what is  going on with the  hairpin circuit and radiant energy in general.

To start I would like to point out a recurring theme in the physical .
An  atom  has a nucleus with atoms rotating around it.
If we change  the names  we can  see the  same structure in other places
If  we call the nucleas a central mass   and  the  electrons  simply  objects orbiting  the central mass ....then our solar system looks like an atom  .......the earth and moon look a lot like a  hydrogen atom
The  galaxy is said to  have a black hole in its center .,,,,,,,if so......it too looks like  an atom...... a very complex atom  but it is still  a central mass with objects rotating  around it.

Is it not  conceivable that this  recurring  structure extends at least one level smaller than we can see?
What if  electrons  have a central mass  and  objects orbiting it?

My theory  is  that this is in fact true
The electrons of electrons are small enough to have  no measurable  mass  I believe that they are comprise what Bearden calls displacement current.

Like  the  electrons  of  the atoms  these electrons  stay put in their orbits  for the most part but  like the electrons  of atoms they also  can  be moved from  atom to atom.



Radiant energy is illusive because it is the  second order of electricity
The first order  is easy for  us to see.
The  second order comes into play  after the first order is put into play.
The  second order is usually obscured by the first order....... normal electricity


Because  this  energy  is of the second level.......current has been induced  from  the atoms  then the electrons this energy could be thought  of as hyper electricity
It would   be very  active
It would  recombine  with electrons  quickly once  the impulse  that pushed it out  of its orbits was removed.
In other words  it has to be kept moving  and  under pressure  all the time .......if it slows down ........it recombines with an atom

In practical term this means that   the hyper  electricity  is hyper  affected by  resistance  and  impedance........anything that slows it down kills the effect.
That is  why  good quality rods are needed  on the hairpin .....in fact   all the  conductors should be  large and  good quality.   The  actual secondary of  a JT  ( assuming  we get a JT to power  a hairpin ) should  be relatively heavy wire ....butr because it is where  the  hyper  electrons  are to be booted from there orbits they  should be under enough  presure to  keep going.
The  wire  between the  coil and the  isolation caps should be heavy
The  caps themselves should  be heavy .....I am thinking  of  plates of copper.
Because   the hyper electrons  have a high amplitude  and  no mass they pass through caps much more easily than normal  electricity ..... this is why  the isolation  caps  of the  hairpin  can provide it  with  an easy  path.



It looks to me like the  greatest  radiant energy  is  at  the lower parts of the rods of the  hairpin.
I believe  that  the  close you get to the rod across the  top the less power is available.......because  the radiant energy can go around  the loop easier than through the load.

One of the videos I watched  told about  the  hairpin  being able to power  a light bulb through very fine  wires....... the wired does not get hot.
I think that this is possible as long  as you have enough amplitude to keep  the hyper electrons in the hyper state   ,,,,,,,, until they start recombining  with atoms  they make no heat.
The relative resistance of the  light bulb slows them down and causes them change to normal electricity



gary

Gary:

I too share your thoughts on this.  Back in college (way back) in a chemistry class I was embarrassed by the professor when I answered one of his questions by comparing the universe to the structure of an atom.  He just about laughed me out of the classroom and said that was the most ridiculous comparison he had ever had the privilege of hearing.

Now, here I am years later and, knowing a lot more now than I did then, I still think that is a valid possibility. Nature has a structure.  Why would it change?

Also, your posit of continuing the structure down beyond what we now know is also a good one.  An electron is a particle.  OK.  We know that other forms of matter are made up of a nucleus with various items in orbit around it.  It makes PERFECT sense to me that if we could break down an electron, or any other particle of that size, that we might see a similar type structure of a central unit with items in orbit around them.  I would not be a bit surprised at all if this were the case.  We were all taught that atoms were the fundamental building blocks of all matter.  (Remember though, first it was molecules and then it was the atom and then the various parts of the atom) What they left out was, they are the most fundamental building blocks that we know of at THIS TIME.

Good thinking on your part Gary. 

Bill
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: resonanceman on January 07, 2010, 01:16:35 AM
My idea for the best kind of JT to try this  with would be  a JT that works well on a CFL or Floro tube
That way we have at least 450 V and a little power.

A Jeanna light might work well
I  was thinking of wiring a MOT  as a JT
I also have a couple of  flyback transformer core JTs

gary
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: jadaro2600 on January 07, 2010, 01:31:21 AM
Jadaro   

I just got caught up on the chiliqueen circuit .

Not sure why you  recomended  it other than the SEC wireless video
The wireless stuff is impressive ......but I do not really understand  his  circuits .......
It clearly is wireless.........but is it radiant  energy?
I did not see anything that even gave me a hint about how it could fit into my  theory ........ but then again.....my theory could be dead wrong ...... We won't know until it is applied to actual circuits.

Come to think about it ......my theory  has nothing about transmiting  radiant energy......and at this point I have no clue about it.

gary

I will re-read your theory.

The hairpin circuit is clearly a transmitter though, the waveform may not be ideal, but sending bursts of DC constitutes an AM transmitter.

Through your posts, I can see that you wish to find the receiver rather than the sender, so to speak.  The one and the other seem the same...

You've referred to electrons in an excited state as becoming fluid; I think this is so, also, I would like to add that they may be thought of, with regard to how you have described them, as super-viscous and easier to manipulate.

It's still unclear whether or not the source is AC ..the image Jeanna posted trivializes the device's generator ( which I think is the key to the whole source-idea ); this was done to simplify the patent filing I'm sure.

I want to know ( as well ) what's going on in the capacitors at the base of the rods, and how it's possible to create a difference between the two when their essentially sharing a base via a connecting rod.

The equivalent circuit is an AC source with two capacitor in series, fancy linkage between them, and some strange effects.

( I don't mean to detract by having trivialized the device, admittedly. )

There are some things which we can agree on, ..high voltage, electrons becoming more movable in this state, unusual effects.

If someone could clarify why is this device is able to receive something more than it's transmitting?  ..otherwise it just appears to be creating a unified high voltage field which wants to ground out via attachments ( lights, etc )

and why a spark gap is required, ( is it the back-lash from the collapsing fields in the capacitors causing a non-trivial circuit through the air? )  Perhaps the device reveals what electricity would rather make happen than what what we think it should be under the circumstances which we've derived from the trivial uses we find for it?

I recommended the video, because it was somewhat of a revelation with regard to SEC ( stands for what again? ) circuits.  It was an interesting correlation to see someone transmit the high voltage from point A to B - He used a metal bowl, that's hilarious even.  I saw someone use an aluminum pan the same way. I just wonder if the two circuits are similar in their functionality.

Trying to make sense of dozens of wires dangling all about makes things difficult to see what's hooked up where and in what way.  ( I've only self-registered this complaint though ).  8)
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 07, 2010, 01:39:46 AM
SEC=Spatial Energy Coherence.

Bill
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: jeanna on January 07, 2010, 01:49:55 AM


What I remember about the picture is I tried to  figure it  out years ago  when I was looking over Teslas patents ......I had absolutely no idea what it was about.
:)
I too have learned what I was unable to even begin to understand years ago. These last 3 years have been so wonderful. wow. And, these things that appeared so complex make good sense now.
Quote
Now........if my theory is  correct......it is simple and straight forward.

I am tempted to  try building one  with a MOT  ( using AC from the line ).......but MOTs  have nothing to prevent  overloads.......so I could  end up with  a red hot smoking high voltage mess real fast

I think I will wait a while........maybe learn a bit more first
gary


About the wall power.

I was in a conversation with ian once and what came out from it was this piece of knowledge.
I had asked about the wall wart and amps and what regulated it etc.
He told me that the draw would be whatever the system wanted it to be.
This is when I understood the term "draw".
It will be drawn from the power generators at niagara if it must.

This is why I do not trust the experiments that work with power supplies from the mains power.
If the circuit you (I) have designed needs an enormous draw for a microsec to work, it might appear to work with wall power when it would never work at all from a AAA.

So, yes you might end up with a mess of melted copper, but you might also THINK you have something that you do not.

----
On another edge to the topic, someone posted a nice poster pic of tesla holding the spherical bulb below his turned face... Everyone knows the one.

There are a few things I noticed yesterday when I looked at it.
1- you could never ever do that with a candle... lest you burn your whiskers.
2- the important one... The light produced is very much like the light we are getting from the cfl and tubes we are lighting with HV HFreq.
It is beautifully bright, but there is nothing that pushes the light.
look at that pic sometime and notice how close to the bulb the light is when it dissipates.
 There is a lot of dark background in that picture.

My conclusion is...
I think we are doing really well here.
Lets keep it up!!

thank you,

jeanna
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: jeanna on January 07, 2010, 02:12:23 AM
t's still unclear whether or not the source is AC ..the image Jeanna posted trivializes the device's generator ( which I think is the key to the whole source-idea ); this was done to simplify the patent filing I'm sure.

I want to know ( as well ) what's going on in the capacitors at the base of the rods, and how it's possible to create a difference between the two when their essentially sharing a base via a connecting rod.

The equivalent circuit is an AC source with two capacitor in series, fancy linkage between them, and some strange effects.

this drawing came from a lecture in 1892 given to the EE's in London. He repeated these and other experiments for 3 other groups during 3 or 4 years.

He says it does not matter which kind of generator it is, however I believe this was a dc generator because this was more common and he was still making the effort to be recognized. (These 4 lectures did have that effect.)
There is another drawing which describes the kind of circuits you can make and in this drawing 3 are dc and 3 are ac.
The dc ones were made alternating in that later description. (same lecture).

It is very interesting to read the transcripts from these lectures.
Many things become clear, but you must feel very relaxed about what you are doing this for.
Tesla backs up and backs up just to inform his listeners about the experiments he has made that have led to his present topic.
There is absolutely no way to speed read your way through it.

Personally I had the impression that in presenting the hairpin to the world, he was introducing the concept of  parallel electric lines and what the considerations would be when using them with AC.
He specifically states that these things are not possible with steady (dc)  currents.
I believe this hairpin demonstration was the forerunner to the modern house wiring. (and this is where he introduced the idea.)
From his detailed descriptions of what is new, we can learn many of the things that were accepted as normal back then which have since dropped out of our electric notions.

for what it is worth,

jeanna
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: resonanceman on January 07, 2010, 02:35:33 AM
I will re-read your theory.

The hairpin circuit is clearly a transmitter though, the waveform may not be ideal, but sending bursts of DC constitutes an AM transmitter.

Through your posts, I can see that you wish to find the receiver rather than the sender, so to speak.  The one and the other seem the same...


Jadaro

The hairpin my  be a transmitter.......but right now it is the most practical way I have to learn the basics of radiant energy.

Fully understanding  radiant energy is the goal

Quote


You've referred to electrons in an excited state as becoming fluid; I think this is so, also, I would like to add that they may be thought of, with regard to how you have described them, as super-viscous and easier to manipulate.


I do not remember  that being part of what I said.
The idea fluid..... just doesn;t sit well with me.

I do think that the hyper electrons from the normal  electrons for the most part  behave  just  like  the normal electrons  we  are used to.

Quote

It's still unclear whether or not the source is AC ..the image Jeanna posted trivializes the device's generator ( which I think is the key to the whole source-idea ); this was done to simplify the patent filing I'm sure.


Most patents now  are writtren for those " skilled in the art "  in other words  experts in their fields ..... This is a way to hide certian details  that may otherwise make it to easy for your compatition to work  around the patant 
I agree that the generator  is  one of the main keys to this circuit .........and you would not  guess that from the drawing.

Quote

I want to know ( as well ) what's going on in the capacitors at the base of the rods, and how it's possible to create a difference between the two when their essentially sharing a base via a connecting rod.


Think  about a normal electrric circuit .......what happens when you disconnect the  power?
The electricity in the circuit disappears .......right?

In the  hairpin circuit  the same thing is happening
The  generator  pushes  the voltage  in the cap  up  high enough for the  electrons to jump  the spark gap.
The  electrons  suddenly jumping  the gap creates what Tesla called a disruptive discharge.   This  disruptive discharge is what shakes the hyper  electrons  out of their orbits.
There is a great deal  of power  in this disruptive discharge for a very short time........  in that short time the hyper electrons are swept through  the isolation  caps
At this point  the  great force of the disruptive discharge is no longer  pushing  the  hyper  electrons.......so they start to recombine  with atoms ......with a large wire  and not alot of force behind them.......they are pretty much gone by the time they reach the end of the rod on the other side ........so  as long  as you keep the descriptive discharge going....you have a  potential difference  across the bars 


Quote

There are some things which we can agree on, ..high voltage, electrons becoming more movable in this state, unusual effects.


I am not saying that  electrons  become more movable  at high vlotages.........I am saying that  there  are a second wave of electrons that is much smaller      ...... the electrons of electrons .

Quote

If someone could clarify why is this device is able to receive something more than it's transmitting?  ..otherwise it just appears to be creating a unified high voltage field which wants to ground out via attachments ( lights, etc )

I do not know that the hairpin  has ever  been  claimed to be OU.
It is  a circuit that I can use to learn about radiant energy .......


Quote
Trying to make sense of dozens of wires dangling all about makes things difficult to see what's hooked up where and in what way.  ( I've only self-registered this complaint though ).  8)

Yes I agree

that is one of the reasons I don't  post more of my circuits.
I have at least 2 dozen alligator clip leads .....I usually keep adding to my circuit  or trying to add feedback .......or something until I  run out of alligator clips........or totally confuse myself
If I  build it  and can't figure it out .........I am sure not  going to post it  and ask anyone else to  try.

:)


gary
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: resonanceman on January 07, 2010, 02:44:54 AM
Jeanna

good point  about the wall power .

I had a strong urge to just throw something together and hit the switch...... don't worry the feeling passed........I am sane  again



I think we are on to something  too.

gary
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: jadaro2600 on January 07, 2010, 04:05:00 AM
Jadaro
...
Fully understanding  radiant energy is the goal

I do not remember  that being part of what I said.
The idea fluid..... just doesn;t sit well with me.
...

It was more of a generalization.   ...I liken it to the notion that bullets and rocks can bounce off of water when at the correct angle.
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 07, 2010, 07:06:26 AM
It was more of a generalization.   ...I liken it to the notion that bullets and rocks can bounce off of water when at the correct angle.

And velocity.

Bill
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: sparks on January 07, 2010, 07:45:54 AM
Of course there is energy bound in the electron orbital as it is mass in motion.  When this angular momentum is converted to linear acceleration then we get current.  The trick to seperating the electron orbital momentum into usable current is to impose upon the atomic structure of an element or molecule a very polarized field of short duration.  Copper or anything that has an abundance of free electrons is unable to give us what we need and that is the conversion of bound electrons into free electrons.  Conductors have way too many free electrons to begin with.  Good for collision currents bad for atomic gains.  Tesla was getting his electron binding energies from nitrogen atoms. Copper is a good conductor but a bad scource element.
Another way to look at an electron is a standing wave.  This would be an oscillation with a defined wavelength nodes antidnodes harmonics etc.  The frequency of which must be exceedingly high due to the distance between the electron shell and the neucleus.  But if we are able to generate a really high energy photon of a very short wavelength this would disrupt the standing wave representation of the electron.  The electron standing wave density would become less dense with a resultant photon emission of greater intensity than that input by the scource ionizing radiation.
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: Magluvin on January 07, 2010, 04:43:46 PM
Hey Resman
In this picture, do you see anything familliar?

Mags
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: onthecuttingedge2005 on January 07, 2010, 05:20:38 PM
Quote from: A link=topic=8572.msg220166#msg220166 A=1262846754
Of course there is energy bound in the electron orbital as it is mass in motion.  When this angular momentum is converted to linear acceleration then we get current.  The trick to seperating the electron orbital momentum into usable current is to impose upon the atomic structure of an element or molecule a very polarized field of short duration.  Copper or anything that has an abundance of free electrons is unable to give us what we need and that is the conversion of bound electrons into free electrons.  Conductors have way too many free electrons to begin with.  Good for collision currents bad for atomic gains.  Tesla was getting his electron binding energies from nitrogen atoms. Copper is a good conductor but a bad scource element.
Another way to look at an electron is a standing wave.  This would be an oscillation with a defined wavelength nodes antidnodes harmonics etc.  The frequency of which must be exceedingly high due to the distance between the electron shell and the neucleus.  But if we are able to generate a really high energy photon of a very short wavelength this would disrupt the standing wave representation of the electron.  The electron standing wave density would become less dense with a resultant photon emission of greater intensity than that input by the scource ionizing radiation.

you are using classical physics to describe an electron but electrons do not follow classical mechanics.

an electron is statically 'smeared' in its orbit it does not 'revolve' around an atom. it pretty much looks like a perfect soap bubble and multiple electrons around a complex atom looks like a soap bubble inside a soap bubble inside a soap bubble and on and on. this soap bubble can change shape according to pressure exerted on its field, only 'free' electrons can become point particles and or wave particles.

the only way to make bound electrons become point particles is to drop the temperature down to where the electron has little or no energy but then they tend to act as singularities and become BEC.

electrons are inherently lazy and won't do work unless you force them to do work. like with 'all' forms of energy, it only likes the path of 'least' resistance. this is the reason why electrons smear themselves around an atom is so they do not have to do work revolving around an atom such as that described in classical mechanics. they are lazy conservative slaves!
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: resonanceman on January 07, 2010, 06:16:46 PM
Hey Resman
In this picture, do you see anything familliar?

Mags

Mags

Is that  a picture of part of someones hairpin?

I see 2 HV caps  and a  sealed sparkgap like we talked about/

gary
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: Magluvin on January 07, 2010, 06:25:29 PM
Hey Resman
Its a pic of Don Smiths device. I was hammered to see it.  I have been looking into the Bertonee transformers but no luck. I wanted to see what that bolt connection was. There are already 2 thick neon wires coming out, and I assume those are the output, but that terminal may be a gnd.   But it was interesting to see that there.
I hope it is a spark gap function.

Mags
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: resonanceman on January 07, 2010, 06:48:59 PM
you are using classical physics to describe an electron but electrons do not follow classical mechanics.

an electron is statically 'smeared' in its orbit it does not 'revolve' around an atom. it pretty much looks like a perfect soap bubble and multiple electrons around a complex atom looks like a soap bubble inside a soap bubble inside a soap bubble and on and on. this soap bubble can change shape according to pressure exerted on its field, only 'free' electrons can become point particles and or wave particles.

the only way to make bound electrons become point particles is to drop the temperature down to where the electron has little or no energy but then they tend to act as singularities and become BEC.

electrons are inherently lazy and won't do work unless you force them to do work. like with 'all' forms of energy, it only likes the path of 'least' resistance. this is the reason why electrons smear themselves around an atom is so they do not have to do work revolving around an atom such as that described in classical mechanics. they are lazy slaves!

onthecuttingedge

I like the idea of electrons looking like bubbles ......but that does  bring up some questions.
You siad only free electrons  can become particles ........
Does this mean that the electron  is a wave when it is around the nucleus?
WHen  there are several electrons in the same orbet do they share the same bubble?
I understand  that the size of the orbit is determined by the energy level of the atom.  I also understand that  the orbits have set sizes.....there is a specific mumber of set orbits and nothing in between ......does  this mean that when an atom  gains or looses energy the  bubble bursts and reforms  at a different level?

I also do not know how any  of this stuff works with  my theory.... according to my theory  the hyper  electrons   would behave just like  normal electrons.......so they to would  be bubbles

As for  angular motion of mass  being transformed into energy ......that kind of flies out the window  with hyper electons or displacment current. .......they have no measurable mass........but they do have energy

gary
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: resonanceman on January 07, 2010, 06:54:39 PM
Hey Resman
Its a pic of Don Smiths device. I was hammered to see it.  I have been looking into the Bertonee transformers but no luck. I wanted to see what that bolt connection was. There are already 2 thick neon wires coming out, and I assume those are the output, but that terminal may be a gnd.   But it was interesting to see that there.
I hope it is a spark gap function.

Mags

It would be great  if we could find somone with some experience using  them for  a hairpin

I have been looking for good hairpin videos......I will watch for them.


gary
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: onthecuttingedge2005 on January 07, 2010, 07:41:41 PM
Quote from: resonanceman link=topic=8572.msg220307#msg220307 A=1262886539
onthecuttingedge

I like the idea of electrons looking like bubbles ......but that does  bring up some questions.
You siad only free electrons  can become particles ........
Does this mean that the electron  is a wave when it is around the nucleus?

yes, an electron is a 'static bubble wave' when in orbit around a nucleus.

Quote
WHen  there are several electrons in the same orbet do they share the same bubble?

I think they divide themselves smeary to form one bubble. they would emit some of their energy so their bubble membrane could be shared with another membrane.

Quote
I understand  that the size of the orbit is determined by the energy level of the atom.  I also understand that  the orbits have set sizes.....there is a specific mumber of set orbits and nothing in between ......does  this mean that when an atom  gains or looses energy the  bubble bursts and reforms  at a different level?

bursting of bubbles is a very good analogy for Quantum Mechanics, I believe it comes close to what actually happens. it is an energy bubble that bursts and reshapes itself into orbit.

Quote
I also do not know how any  of this stuff works with  my theory.... according to my theory  the hyper  electrons   would behave just like  normal electrons.......so they to would  be bubbles

this is quite common, not even Quantum Mechanics know why it works either, all they know is it just does, they about freaked out when they did the double slit experiment, somebody shot a wad that day.

Quote
As for  angular motion of mass  being transformed into energy ......that kind of flies out the window  with hyper electons or displacment current. .......they have no measurable mass........but they do have energy

gary

technically an electron should only be a sum of its parts when annihilated, Physics say that an electron is a fundimental particle even though it can be broken down into a simpler form from a positron to electron annihilation converted to Gamma Radiation.

below is what a single undisturbed hydrogen atom would look like if you could see it by itself and close up.
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: amigo on January 08, 2010, 05:10:55 AM
Hello,

I read the thread and thought to post my observations.

To begin with, I am not sure GDTs will work well as spark gaps as they are made to provide surge protection when a spike occurs but not on a continuous basis as your application might require.

Has anyone actually looked at the spec sheet for them or the link that was posted (http://www.citel.us/gas_distcharge_tubes_overview.html) explaining their operation. Please note the four operating domains and also on the next page the fairly broad dynamic area. Both might be problematic in your configuration.

Also, you need to remember that you will be pulsing hundreds if not thousands of times per second. The physical limit GDT can withstand before a breakdown occurs needs to be determined...

In any case, as I have also been researching various spark gaps and contemplating building all kinds of evacuated tubes with gases (ie. Nitrogen), I stumbled upon a solid-state spark gap using a SIDAC.

Not sure if anyone has seen this one already, but it looks very sound, not to mention it has already been tested and worked out:

http://drsstc.com/~sisg/

(PDF: http://drsstc.com/~sisg/files/SISG.pdf)
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: sparks on January 08, 2010, 12:51:38 PM
     How can the electron be a bubble it is a point scource of charge.  It occupies no space. It messes with space. Just like a photon messes with space.  The basic premise of quantom mechanics is that the photon represents units of inertia.  E=mc2 basically says that energy is inertia.  When inertia or mass velocity is converted into photons it will follow Einsteins formula.  The electron in a 1s orbital has more massveloity than one in the valance or conductive bands ever thought of having.  The electron may be smeared into a bubble field but I assure you that bubble is not just floating.  It is spinning like a top at near the speed of light along two axis of rotation.  While spinning say east to west creating an axis running north to south it is quite easy for the inertial field to also be spinning north to south at the same time. Or the axis created by the first spin also spinning.
The precessional velocity equal to or greater than the east west spin.  The electron must spin through 720 degrees to return to its original position.  Physics professor once said this is counterintuitive.  Tell that to a pitching coach explaining how to throw a mean curve ball to a kid playing farm team baseball.  I always go with by intuition.  The brain runs subroutines and figures out alot of shit for us before we try to find reasons for feeling this way or that about a certain situation.  We already know the solutions.  I always go with my gut response.  99percent probablity that you are right. 
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: forest on January 08, 2010, 01:39:27 PM
Electron is a wave http://www.spaceandmotion.com/science-physics-wsm-wave-diagrams.htm
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: resonanceman on January 08, 2010, 04:48:47 PM
Hello,

I read the thread and thought to post my observations.

To begin with, I am not sure GDTs will work well as spark gaps as they are made to provide surge protection when a spike occurs but not on a continuous basis as your application might require.

Has anyone actually looked at the spec sheet for them or the link that was posted (http://www.citel.us/gas_distcharge_tubes_overview.html) explaining their operation. Please note the four operating domains and also on the next page the fairly broad dynamic area. Both might be problematic in your configuration.

Also, you need to remember that you will be pulsing hundreds if not thousands of times per second. The physical limit GDT can withstand before a breakdown occurs needs to be determined...

In any case, as I have also been researching various spark gaps and contemplating building all kinds of evacuated tubes with gases (ie. Nitrogen), I stumbled upon a solid-state spark gap using a SIDAC.

Not sure if anyone has seen this one already, but it looks very sound, not to mention it has already been tested and worked out:

http://drsstc.com/~sisg/

(PDF: http://drsstc.com/~sisg/files/SISG.pdf)

Amigo

I have questions about if the GDTs will  work for this application ......... but  most of us here are expermenters ........ we are here to figure that kind of stuff out....... I am sure they will not work verry long if high power is  used.........if low power is used.......and the largest GDT available for  the  chosen voltage is used.... it may  work.......at least for a while.
It would be simple and cheep.

Thanks  for the  link for  the solid state spark gap .
That may open quite a few doors for people here.

I think you may  have started something though.
If I know  this  group.........in  a few months there will  be  a group of  people  in an unofficial contest to see who can make  the biggest  sparks with  a  JT powered Tesla coil powered by of course.........1 AA battery

:)

sounds like fun  to me


gary
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: resonanceman on January 08, 2010, 05:06:20 PM
Personaly   I do not care what an electon looks like.

I think the ldea  of it looking like  a bubble is cool .......but whatever it looks like it does the same  work.

I have no faith  in  " accepted " theorys .......science  has not been about honesty and integrity of research for a very long time.....it is more about politics and power than it is  research.

gary
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: Magluvin on January 08, 2010, 05:23:07 PM
Thanks for the link Amigo  That is sweet.
I only hope it is a pure unidirectional flow.
But it looks like we are getting closer to what we are looking for.
I also found the pancake goil use interesting. It seems the common way to make them is between 2 plates of plexi to hold the thing flat.

Mags
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: sparks on January 09, 2010, 01:45:31 AM
They got any solid state devices that react to magnetic flux changes are able to act as room temperature superconductors.  Are stablized by uv light.  Tesla's spark gap couples magnetically to the induced A of the tank inductor and any other magnetic field around.  Electrons will drift in a wire and not draw a bit of energy from any field polarization.  That in itself is enough to tell me that they got energy onboard     You have a spinning top going like all the dickens.  You can put the top on your hand and it is hard to move around.  Cause it has inertia.  Put it on the table and tap it just the right way and the top goes kinetic.  If there is any channeling structure it goes the way you want it to.  As an electron converts its mass velocity into photons we get all sorts of different wave lenghths.  Multispectrum photon emission from the spark gap conversion process can be stored in a resonant tank.  This process repeated millions of times a second is simple gain from mass to energy conversion.  Conversion of the electron massvelocity  to energy of varying wavelengths.  The physicists and mathmaticians have known how to do this since at least the 50's.  It is not frindge physics it is as mainstream as it gets.  It is totally suppressed because air is free fuel.
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: Magluvin on January 09, 2010, 03:32:31 AM
One thing about using a using a unidirectional gap, at least to start, is to at the least gain experience with the cold electricity to more understand what we are dealing with. From what I know up till now, just from a lot of reading, is that the cold electricity will light an incandescent bulb and lighting the filament, not the gas or vacuum in the bulb.
This is a hard to believe statement. We are shown all these incandescent lights, neon tubes glowing and told what static is along with demonstration, yet "radiant electricity" will light the filament if 2 people were the conductors from the source, and they feel nothing, not a tickle. This is the alternative electricity that Tesla discovered. No electron flow. We cannot feel it because it travels over our skin, not through us, wont even feel the tiniest. No electrons. Try the 2 guys with a lights the filament of the light bulb the conventionals way and ask them if they feel it or with any of those examples I suggested, and ask if nothing was felt, not even the initial spark when making contact. Ive touched it all, even the ole 9v bat on the tongue. =]  A 6 v lantern bat, even though the voltage is lower, you may have a burnt taste in the mouth for a few days. :p or a hand held tesla coil tatoo, looks like the arms of Qui Chang Kane from kungfu for at least a week. And all types of electric shock, but I cannot say that I have experienced an electric condutivity to my body that I did not feel, especially high voltage.
Put a coil of wire on top of a plasma ball and put your finger near the tip of the wire, there will be a seemingly continuous spark and the distinct smell of burning of skin. and the wire or coil has no electrical contact. Inductive but mostly capacitive. But those burns are caused by electrons, not the force that makes them flow, the cold electricity, and that is what we are looking for. It will light the filament, it will turn a motor, it will run anything electronic, but it wont hurt you.
 There is a theory that there is 2 elements that are missing from the element chart that are lighter than hydrogen, If you look at the first 2 vertical rows where hydrogen sits is where they should be. It is said that they are able to move or penetrate through everything. And its believed that this "gas" is where the energy is available.

Magluvin
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: sparks on January 09, 2010, 04:12:41 AM
  Back to the hairpin.  If we induce a soundwave into a metal what happens.  Would there be more electrons bunched together at one spot than another.  Polarizing portions of the metal.  Then it would be very easy to capacitavely couple the load lights to the portion of the hairpin that has greater  CHARGE than portions of the hairpin that have less charge.  Not directly attached to the copper with a good connection but connected to the copper with a dielectric in between.  By creating a harmonic oscillation within the conductor resonant cavity then we would get twice as many spots to capacitavely couple loads to the wavefield.  If the waves go to the end of the resonant cavity and are reflected then we are able to pull load from the oscillator without disrupting the standing wavefield.  This will enable work to be done without damping the primary oscillator.  The oscillator excited will ring indefininitely and do work.  Tesla built a better oscillator when he did the coil capacitor or bifilar wound pancake coil.  Inductor and capacitor were one.
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: sparks on January 09, 2010, 04:27:50 AM
@Mag

The reason they arent there is because of the planck constant.  This combined with the speed of light constant is a great scource of confusion.
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: resonanceman on January 09, 2010, 05:35:50 AM
  Back to the hairpin.  If we induce a soundwave into a metal what happens.  Would there be more electrons bunched together at one spot than another.  Polarizing portions of the metal.  Then it would be very easy to capacitavely couple the load lights to the portion of the hairpin that has greater  CHARGE than portions of the hairpin that have less charge.  Not directly attached to the copper with a good connection but connected to the copper with a dielectric in between.  By creating a harmonic oscillation within the conductor resonant cavity then we would get twice as many spots to capacitavely couple loads to the wavefield.  If the waves go to the end of the resonant cavity and are reflected then we are able to pull load from the oscillator without disrupting the standing wavefield.  This will enable work to be done without damping the primary oscillator.  The oscillator excited will ring indefininitely and do work.  Tesla built a better oscillator when he did the coil capacitor or bifilar wound pancake coil.  Inductor and capacitor were one.

Sparks

I do not see how standing waves can help us with  the hairpin
For standing waves to work  we would have to have a VERY large  hairpin or use extremely high frequency


gary
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: jeanna on January 09, 2010, 05:58:41 AM
Gary,
I am curious to know what you are doing and how you are changing the Karl Palsness replication of version um 2, I think, of the 3 possible pix?

Are you using that one?
Are you using the one that is open at all?

Karl said the horseshoe is safer, so that is my bet, but I am always curious to see how someone makes a new build interpretation.

thank you,

jeanna
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: onthecuttingedge2005 on January 09, 2010, 06:12:22 AM
the electron only has to circumvent the velocity of the nucleus which is spinning on a rotation far less than light speed in 3D axle rotation are you telling me that an electron is traveling faster than the proton on axle rotation, it does not have to be at the speed of light. field equalization is only required. since an electron is omni-spherical in field it will behave as such. pretty simple stuff! all else is highly predictable.

the only reason why an electron bubble would have any spin is because the nucleus is spinning, the nucleus is stable in its spin because it has field vectors that keep it from spinning, this is called the field of least resistant! bound Protons and electrons are subject to this law, period! their own fields will coincide with this law.

you listen to, to much classical mechanics. classical mechanics is nothing but poison to the current science age. it should of never of been invented.
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: resonanceman on January 09, 2010, 06:47:12 AM
Gary,
I am curious to know what you are doing and how you are changing the Karl Palsness replication of version um 2, I think, of the 3 possible pix?

Are you using that one?
Are you using the one that is open at all?

Karl said the horseshoe is safer, so that is my bet, but I am always curious to see how someone makes a new build interpretation.

thank you,

jeanna

Jeanna

right  now I am waiting for the books I ordered and  doing a little research .....

Right now I have 3 things

Motivation

a theory

and lots of questions



I am thinking that  the actual hairpin should be  pretty much like in ther video.......with a removable  bar on  top.....if  for no other reason than to see that it does change things when the bar is removed.

If my theory is right...... a small hairpin would let alot of radiant energy go around it rather than  through the load..........so I am thinking at least 5 ft tall

For the  rods..........ground rods are around 5 ft.........but I am pretty sure that  they are copper plated iron now ........

I have not checked yet ...............but I am thinking of using  wire usually used for  grounding stuff .........I know 1/4 inch is common.....
They might  have  some thicker ......


Copper pipe might  be an option too
With pipe I think I would  go with at least 1 inch

For  the  caps on the ends of the rods I am thinking of making my own
I read  somewhere  about  caps made with tubes ....... I might  try that .....
A PVC pipe might  make a pretty good dialectrric
A copper  pipe inside that would be one plate....... the outer plate could  be adjustable ....... it would  be fairly easy to wrap  it with  copper sheet or  aluminum  foil  for the other plate.... wrap less  of it for smaller capacitance

Or ........if  I use the ground  wire......... they make polyethylene tubes that would probably  slide  right over the  copper........it might take a couple feet to have enough capacitance.........but the  with the ground  wire as a plate  the connection on that end at least will always  be good.
The copper tape they use for making stained  glass windows might be a very good  outer plate

anyway....there is lots of  choices to make........lots of experimenting  to see what works.




gary


Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: onthecuttingedge2005 on January 09, 2010, 06:58:39 AM
Jeanna

right  now I am waiting for the books I ordered and  doing a little research .....

Right now I have 3 things

Motivation

a theory

and lots of questions



I am thinking that  the actual hairpin should be  pretty much like in ther video.......with a removable  bar on  top.....if  for no other reason than to see that it does change things when the bar is removed.

If my theory is right...... a small hairpin would let alot of radiant energy go around it rather than  through the load..........so I am thinking at least 5 ft tall

For the  rods..........ground rods are around 5 ft.........but I am pretty sure that  they are copper plated iron now ........

I have not checked yet ...............but I am thinking of using  wire usually used for  grounding stuff .........I know 1/4 inch is common.....
They might  have  some thicker ......


Copper pipe might  be an option too
With pipe I think I would  go with at least 1 inch

For  the  caps on the ends of the rods I am thinking of making my own
I read  somewhere  about  caps made with tubes ....... I might  try that .....
A PVC pipe might  make a pretty good dialectrric
A copper  pipe inside that would be one plate....... the outer plate could  be adjustable ....... it would  be fairly easy to wrap  it with  copper sheet or  aluminum  foil  for the other plate.... wrap less  of it for smaller capacitance

Or ........if  I use the ground  wire......... they make polyethylene tubes that would probably  slide  right over the  copper........it might take a couple feet to have enough capacitance.........but the  with the ground  wire as a plate  the connection on that end at least will always  be good.
The copper tape they use for making stained  glass windows might be a very good  outer plate

anyway....there is lots of  choices to make........lots of experimenting  to see what works.




gary

Good luck Gary, I know how lazy energy can be! very lazy! it will not do work for you unless you crack the whip! this is the truth! let the truth be told!

Jerry 8)
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: jeanna on January 09, 2010, 08:00:12 AM
Nice overview Gary.
Thank you.

Jerry,
Maybe you need to find something you are passionate about?
I can hardly wait to get up in the morning most days.
I am so ready to try my thoughts out.
I can guarantee that if we were doing something I "should" do, it would be different!

11PM time to sleep!

nite
jeanna
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: sparks on January 09, 2010, 12:51:16 PM
       I am just saying that electrons are assigned a very specific mass quantity.  Why in the world would this mass not be convertible to energy.  Is there a limit on how much mass you need to have before you can convert it to energy.  How many photons can exist in the same place at the same time.  Lots of em.  After a while they become massive.  The cosmic background radiation does not only scatter it is effected by mass.   It condenses into mass.  Electron is probably the first ordering of the randomized oscillations.
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: resonanceman on January 09, 2010, 04:29:56 PM
Just wondering  if  anyone  is  planning on building the  solid state spark gap

I am looking into it......


gary
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: jeanna on January 09, 2010, 11:10:21 PM
Hi Gary,
I am not yet able to film this well.
I need to get another fixture from the hardware store, but I want to tell you what I have.

I have a JTC with a secondary that produces so much voltage that I can light a LoA bulb if I put one line of the secondary to the pos at the bottom of the bulb and the other line to the screw part around the edge of the bulb.
Then, there is enough left for an extension of the secondary lines to continue...(in Tesla's drawing it is up the pole a bit)... and an additional bulb will light from the extension of each line to the same 2 places of the second bulb.
They seem to share the voltage but when I use the circuit with 700 volts it lights both somewhat brighter than the one with 450v does.

My next plan is to get a toroid in a circuit that has at least 900v since I think these unmodified bulbs want that.

Ultimately, I would like to see 3 bulbs on one toroid and have a rheostat at the pos battery line to change the input voltage.

So, first to the hardware store, then to make or find another more powerful toroid.. I seem to have bad battery holder karma, so I hope RS has this month's order.
BBS

jeanna
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: resonanceman on January 09, 2010, 11:43:45 PM
Hi Gary,
I am not yet able to film this well.
I need to get another fixture from the hardware store, but I want to tell you what I have.

I have a JTC with a secondary that produces so much voltage that I can light a LoA bulb if I put one line of the secondary to the pos at the bottom of the bulb and the other line to the screw part around the edge of the bulb.
Then, there is enough left for an extension of the secondary lines to continue...(in Tesla's drawing it is up the pole a bit)... and an additional bulb will light from the extension of each line to the same 2 places of the second bulb.
They seem to share the voltage but when I use the circuit with 700 volts it lights both somewhat brighter than the one with 450v does.

My next plan is to get a toroid in a circuit that has at least 900v since I think these unmodified bulbs want that.

Ultimately, I would like to see 3 bulbs on one toroid and have a rheostat at the pos battery line to change the input voltage.

So, first to the hardware store, then to make or find another more powerful toroid.. I seem to have bad battery holder karma, so I hope RS has this month's order.
BBS

jeanna

Jeanna

Sounds  great

What kind  of toroid  is that made with?



I have decided to try a few replications of your Jeanna light

I figure that making a few lights is a good way to practice making stronger JTs

Then  when I am ready I will  use  my strongest  JT for the hairpin.

Before I start building  I a hairpin I want to see what the books I have ordered have to say about it.


I  also want to study that sparkgap
There is a page that describes how it works
havn't had time to  read it yet.



gary

Edit

I did not hear anything more about your conical and the resonance thing
Have  you been able to get the same effect again?
I tried makind a couple conical coils ........ No luck with the resonance
As coreless JTs one of them made 16V
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: Mk1 on January 10, 2010, 12:12:25 AM
@all

Check this ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spark-gap_transmitter

Also i found those trigger coils they need to be pulsed at 300v and give out 10000 ...http://www.abra-electronics.com/products/catalog/H-V-Trigger-Transformers-p-4765.html

And if i remember correctly they do make some insulated spark gaps now ,
most likely less noisy ...
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: jeanna on January 10, 2010, 12:26:11 AM
Hi Gary,
First about the conical.
It is just a tricky thing to build, so I put it off.
Without any connection through the toroid there is just what you found.
But, if you connect the free wires the way I did, you get the amazing effect.
First you make a 6 turn secondary. It is not necessary to make it large, and it may be better even smaller than 6.
Then I am assuming you wound the cone with 2 wires all the way and then connect the end of one to the beginning of the other. Now, if you connect the top free wire from the cone to the end of the toroid secondary and measure the total thing, it is a ringing cone.

---
About these circuits.
I have been trying to make the perfect amount of turns in a secondary to light the LoA bulb, and with a TIP31 or TIP3055,  and about 110 turns around a tor-61 from allelectronics which is about .7 inch I get about 600 volts.
This is high and I reduced that to about 84 turns and got 400v.

It was after I made those and they were waiting for a AA battery holder, that you opened this thread.
Once you did that, I thought it might be better to make a high voltage toroid and put 3 in line and use a rheostat to modulate the brightness.
I can also change the base resistor, but at the moment, I will not change either of these circuits.
It is all a part of the experiment of course.
Have you seen Karl Palsness' video where he hangs one light in about the center, then puts another in various spots? The light in the middle always gets some amount dimmer.

From my other experiments earlier this year, I believe that it is possible to add a supporting inductor to each bulb, but that needs experimentation.

I agree with you.
Make a bunch and get the feeling for what to do when you want some effect.
That will inform all of us.

thank you,

jeanna
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: Mk1 on January 10, 2010, 12:27:30 AM
some more
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 10, 2010, 01:29:14 AM
MK1:

Thanks for the link on those trigger coils.  For $4.00 US to put in 300v and get out 10,000 is great!!!  The ones I have (from camera circuits) take in 300v and put out 4,000 only.  Just think of the fun we could have with 10,000 volts?????

Bill
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: resonanceman on January 10, 2010, 02:08:22 AM
Hi Gary,
First about the conical.
It is just a tricky thing to build, so I put it off.
Without any connection through the toroid there is just what you found.
But, if you connect the free wires the way I did, you get the amazing effect.
First you make a 6 turn secondary. It is not necessary to make it large, and it may be better even smaller than 6.
Then I am assuming you wound the cone with 2 wires all the way and then connect the end of one to the beginning of the other. Now, if you connect the top free wire from the cone to the end of the toroid secondary and measure the total thing, it is a ringing cone.

---
About these circuits.
I have been trying to make the perfect amount of turns in a secondary to light the LoA bulb, and with a TIP31 or TIP3055,  and about 110 turns around a tor-61 from allelectronics which is about .7 inch I get about 600 volts.
This is high and I reduced that to about 84 turns and got 400v.

It was after I made those and they were waiting for a AA battery holder, that you opened this thread.
Once you did that, I thought it might be better to make a high voltage toroid and put 3 in line and use a rheostat to modulate the brightness.
I can also change the base resistor, but at the moment, I will not change either of these circuits.
It is all a part of the experiment of course.
Have you seen Karl Palsness' video where he hangs one light in about the center, then puts another in various spots? The light in the middle always gets some amount dimmer.

From my other experiments earlier this year, I believe that it is possible to add a supporting inductor to each bulb, but that needs experimentation.

I agree with you.
Make a bunch and get the feeling for what to do when you want some effect.
That will inform all of us.

thank you,

jeanna

Jeanna

I tried  all  the connections I could think of  with my conicals
I tried half a dozen coils .......I tried connecting the secondarys.......I even tried the primarys in series and in parallel 

I did  see that video
I have not looked into that kind of thing to know  for sure what is going on.....  very impressive though


````````````````````````````````````````

I think the first Jeanna light  I will try will  be with a flyback JT core.
JTs  I have made from them before have been some of my strongest.

I do not have any large toroids  yet ........so I will see what I can do with  maybe  3   5 for $1 toroids   then  maybe 5

I also have some E cores  I have been meaning  to try out.

gary
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: resonanceman on January 10, 2010, 02:21:24 AM
MK1

Thanks for the links

That sparkgap  tube is really cool


If  I understand   right .......on a different thread they are using  similar trigger coils  as  receiver and transmitter coils for wireless transmission


gary
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: sparks on January 10, 2010, 02:32:23 AM
   A spark gap is a minny accelerator.  It has the plasma it should have the magnetic confinement which alot of folks are not getting because they are not placing the spark gap to respond to the magnetic field of the tank inductor.  This shortens the pulse and gets you into the proper frequency range to emit gamma radiation.  Gamma takes apart an atom like shooting a needle through a ballon.  Not to worry. The radioactive 1/2 life of nitrogen is measured in seconds.  Who needs uranium we got air. 
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: jeanna on January 10, 2010, 04:54:59 AM
Gary,
I went into my other computer and found the picture Tesla prepared for his patent on delivery of electric lighting in a home.
This is one of the hairpin circuits on its side.
This is my biggest reason for thinking the hairpin was the experiment behind what became dressed up as a patent
What do you think?

jeanna
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: resonanceman on January 10, 2010, 05:17:07 AM
Gary,
I went into my other computer and found the picture Tesla prepared for his patent on delivery of electric lighting in a home.
This is one of the hairpin circuits on its side.
This is my biggest reason for thinking the hairpin was the experiment behind what became dressed up as a patent
What do you think?

jeanna

Jeanna

It looks like it would function like a hairpin.

The question is.........what was Tesla planning?

A  spark gap and cap is not required  to power  a simple load.


gary
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: sparks on January 10, 2010, 05:22:31 AM
@Jeanna

     If you study Tesla he wants the whole transmission circuit to be in resonance and pickup the load at nodes and antinodes in the transmission system.  This way the tank remains in oscillation mode and the resistance is cut out of an RLC circuit.  The system just sits there and oscillates with input needed just for losses in the resonant circuit not work done by the circuit.  By inputting harmonics of the natural resonance of the transmission line the distance between nodes and antinodes can be adjusted.  At the present frequency used by the power companies your load would have to be capacitively coupled thousands of miles apart.  For all we know the power companies are using Teslas scheme and telling us they are producing all these megawatts when all they do is produce 10percent of what they are charging us for. 
They have been using pulsed dc for long transmission lines between portions of the grid but that is only to overcome the impedance losses because of the wire they used.  Cheaper to put up the conversion plants on either end than to replace the antiquated wires with coax designed for low frequency transmission.  DC goes just as far as ac with a lot less selfinductance losses due to the transmission of ac.  Edison was right.  It is just that high voltage dc converters were not available at the time so to overcome the line drop they would use a seperate run from the substations that were dc motor generator sets and very expensive.  Tesla designed an ac to dc converter but it never went into production because Westinghouse owned Tesla at the time.  This diode is capable of rectifying killowatts of power without thermal losses to heat sinks and all the rest of the losses nonlinear semiconductors are beseeched with.  Just iron and copper. 
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: jadaro2600 on January 10, 2010, 05:53:41 AM
... Tesla designed an ac to dc converter but it never went into production because Westinghouse owned Tesla at the time.  This diode is capable of rectifying killowatts of power without thermal losses to heat sinks and all the rest of the losses nonlinear semiconductors are beseeched with.  Just iron and copper.

By "this diode" which diode do you specifically mean?
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: jeanna on January 10, 2010, 07:54:08 AM
It looks like it would function like a hairpin.

The question is.........what was Tesla planning?

A  spark gap and cap is not required  to power  a simple load.
True,
I think this is the proposal that ended up as the wiring in our homes.


I have been getting lots of lighting tonight.
I even burned my fingers on the secondary.
It is hard to balance on my lap and table and take a pic, so I will clear things a bit tomorrow, and hopefully make a little video of one JT lighting 2 LoA bulbs. I did it today but my arm kept getting in the way, so I will go for a better one tomorrow.

@Sparks,
I think you are making too much of what Tesla was doing.
It is a lot simpler than what you are proposing.

In fact Tesla went into quite a bit of detail about how resonance was not at all what he wanted, and that many people thought it was the best thing to aim for and he said they would find it was not.

I was happy to find the cone gave me a  self tuning resonant circuit, but in fact, I have not been able to do as much with it as with the hum drum skinny spikes.

The thing I see  is that the voltage numbers we expect to use are way off.
It takes 450v minimum to light a cfl. This is 2-4 times as much just by the numbers, so we must get used to it.
I cannot light a neon with less than 190 v. I usually clarify and use the word spiky to show the difference.
I was surprised when I got stung by the secondary wire tonight, but at the time I was realizing that the circuit I was using was able to light the LoA bulb either way + to + , or + to -
This is another surprise and may be about how high the voltage is (~600-800v)

It is looking pretty good from here.
If I could only get around this component karma, it would be easy.
Now, I am thinking the croc leads are my biggest trouble... tonight anyway.

Ah well,

jeanna
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: Pirate88179 on January 10, 2010, 08:02:42 AM
Jeanna:

Remember on my first Jeanna Light replication (I am almost done with my second) where I could touch the pick-up lead end and not get zapped or burned, even though my cfl was lit brightly?  Then, I altered the collector turns and the base turns and.....ZAP!!!  It really hurt.  I think I figured it out but then XEE (I think that is who it was) agreed that I must have lowered my freq. to a point where it could penetrate my skin.  What a rude awakening that was.  Good lesson for me though.  I am not touching this new circuit.

Bill
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: jeanna on January 10, 2010, 08:32:29 AM
Hi Bill,

I just checked to see.
575v
11khz
131r base resistor

The only thing I changed on this was the incoming voltage.
I switched to a AA 1.5v alkaline, for the time.

It is convenient to use commercial ac things from the hardware store, but they have such thick wire it is clumsy.
So, I was moving those heavy wires into place and held the thin secondary wire longer than usual.
I got 5 bad burns the other night when I hit the bcap to the leads of my 12v battery.
(I saw the awg 24 copper wire get red hot as it burned into my fingers in less than 1/4 second)

They have healed well, but this left my fingertips a little numb for the time, and I have a feeling this is how I didn't let go quickly enough tonight.
the frequency is 11Khz, which is much higher than what I have gotten with the very large toroid.

Isn't this an interesting topic?

I hope to make a video tomorrow. I want to reshoot because the wires are clumsy and it is hard to see clearly.  :D

fun,

jeanna
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: sparks on January 10, 2010, 01:21:37 PM
@Jadaro


     I will try to find the patent and diagram.  It works on the principals of an ac induction motor with the exception that the pulsed ac windings are solenoidal and wrapped around a core.  The rotating magnetic field flux change is observed by a conductor instead of a squirrel cage rotor and dc is the output.  Not really a diode more like an ac motor driving a dc generator  without any moving parts.  This could convert highvoltage high frequency ac to some really clean dc. 

 @Jeanna

   Tesla always tuned his circuits. 
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: tysb3 on January 10, 2010, 02:40:49 PM
@resonanceman
tesla kacer:
http://www.youtube.com/user/FreeEnergyInfo#p/u/33/OrfolD18t68
http://www.youtube.com/user/FreeEnergyInfo#p/u/68/Ocb7Jr2e4KA
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: jeanna on January 10, 2010, 07:57:19 PM
Here is the transcription of the lecture Tesla gave regarding the hairpin circuit. (I called it the 3lampsexperiment.)

============
Referring to Fig. 1830, B and BJ are very stout copper bars
connected at their lower ends to plates c and c 1 respectively, of a
condenser, the opposite plates of the latter being connected to the
terminals of the secondary s of a high-tension transformer, the
primary p of which is supplied with alternating currents from an
ordinary low-frequency dynamo & or distribution circuit. The
p339


condenser discharges through an adjustable gap d d as usual. By
establishing a rapid vibration it was found quite easy to perform
the following curious experiment. The bars B and B1  were joined
at the top by a low-voltage lamp L3 ; a little lower was placed by
means of clamps c c, a 50-volt lamp L2 ; and still lower another 100-
volt lamp L1 ; and finally, at a certain distance below the latter
lamp, an exhausted tube T. By carefully determining the po-
sitions of these devices it was found practicable to maintain them
Picture 3.png ¨
all at their proper illuminating power. Yet they were all con-
nected in multiple arc to the two stout copper bars and required
widely different pressures. This experiment requires of course
some time for adjustment but is quite easily performed.
In Figs. 183b and 183c, two other experiments are illustrated
which, unlike the previous experiment, do not require very care-
ful adjustments. In Fig. 183b, two lamps, L1 and L2, the former a

p340

100-volt and the latter a 50-volt are
placed in certain positions as
indicated, the 100-volt lamp being below the 50-volt lamp. When
the arc is playing at d  d and the sudden discharges are passed
through the bars B B,, the 50-volt lamp will, as a rule, burn brightly,
or at least this result is easily secured, while the 100-volt lamp
will burn very low or remain quite dark. Fig. 183b. Now the
bars B B! may be joined at the top by a thick cross bar B2 and it
is quite easy to maintain the 100-volt lamp at full candle-power
while the 50-volt lamp remains dark, Fig. 183c. These results,
as I have pointed out previously, should not be considered to be
due exactly to frequency but rather to the time rate of change
which may be great, even with low frequencies. A great many
other results of the same kind, equally interesting, especially to
those who are only used to manipulate steady currents, may be
obtained and they afford precious clues in investigating the na-
ture of electric currents.
   In the preceding experiments I have already had occasion to
show some light phenomena and it would now be proper to study
these in particular ; but to make this investigation more com-
plete I think it necessary to make first a few remarks on the
subject of electrical resonance which has to be always observed
in carrying out these experiments.
========
I will next find the talk about resonance so it is properly worded.

@Sparks,
I have thought about what you were saying about the plasma and spark and those things, and I want to clarify what I think about it.
(btw what I think changes and grows all the time so I probably have less understanding than you have now...and certainly than I will have later.)

What I think now, is that the plasma that forms the arc and the spark is from the surrounding ether. I am sure that it does not come from the copper tube.
What I also think is that the electrons and the atomic frequency and energy of the copper is what provides the amps being used, which in this case is very small being mostly fast moving volts.

thank you.
I always think about what you say,

jeanna
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: jeanna on January 10, 2010, 08:07:00 PM
Here is more that is relevant to our study :


But the effects which are produced by currents which
rise instantly to high values, as in a disruptive discharge, are
entirely different from those produced by dynamo currents which
rise and fall harmonically. So, for instance, there might be in a
given case a number of makes and breaks at d d equal to just
twice the frequency of the dynamo, or in other words, there may
be the same number of fundamental oscillations as would be pro-


317

duced without the discharge gap, and there might even not be any
quicker superimposed vibration ; yet the differences of potential at
the various points of the circuit, the impedance and other pheno-
mena, dependent upon the rate of change, will bear no similarity in
the two cases. Thus, when working with currents discharging dis-
ruptively, the element chiefly to be considered is not the frequency,
as a student might be apt to believe, but the rate of change per
unit of time. With low frequencies in a certain measure the same
effects may be obtained as with high frequencies, provided the rate
of change is sufficiently great. So if a low frequency current is
raised to a potential of, say, 75,000 volts, and the high tension cur-
rent passed through a series of high resistance lamp filaments, the
importance of the rarefied gas surrounding the filament is clearly
noted, as will be seen later; or, if a low frequency current of several
thousand amperes is passed through a metal bar, striking phe-
nomena of impedance are observed, just as with currents of high
frequencies. But it is, of course, evident that with low frequency
currents it is impossible to obtain such rates of change per unit of
time as with high frequencies, hence the effects produced by the
latter are much more prominent. It is deemed advisable to
make the preceding remarks, inasmuch as many more recently
described effects have been unwittingly identified with high
frequencies. Frequency alone in reality does not mean anything,
except when an undisturbed harmonic oscillation is considered.
   In the branch iiib a similar disposition to that in ib is illustrated,
with the difference that the currents discharging through the gap
d d are used to induce currents in the secondary s of a trans-
former T. In such case the secondary should be provided with an
adjustable condenser for the purpose of tuning it to the primary.
   iib illustrates a plan of alternate current high frequency
conversion which is most frequently used and which is found to
be most convenient. This plan has been dwelt upon in detail on
previous occasions and need not be described here.
   Some of these results were obtained by the use of a high
frequency alternator. A description of such machines will be
found in my original paper before the American Institute of
Electrical Engineers, and in periodicals of that period, notably
in THE ELECTRICAL ENGINEER of March 18, 1891.

I will now proceed with the experiments...

pp318-335 is the experiments part.
======

I think the high frequency alternator might be interesting to see.
I am still looking for the part about NOT looking for resonance.

jeanna
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: sparks on January 10, 2010, 08:32:41 PM
   Perhaps we are both right.  The standing wave field is developed using hamonic input frequencies which produces the standing wave.  This would be the make and brake of his motorized spark gaps.  Or just may be putting the generator or supply circuit into oscillation.  The spark gap is used first as a capacitive coupling between the oscillating supply and the output.  But upon this standing wavefield is induced a transient wave.  The rate of change (as I have referred to numerous times over in the jt thread) or what Steven Marks called the kick traverses the standing wavefield.  The transition from o to 3ooo volts to o produces electromagnetic radiation well above visible light if you get my drift.  If you start to get into nanometer wavelengths atoms start getting vibrated apart.  Again the energy needed to ionize an atom is more dependent on frequency than intensity.  Throw the sweep speed of your osciiliscope all the way up.  If your shot still shows a vertical line your getting close.  If you do the same and there is no line but your spark gap is emitting light and sound then we are getting close.

@Jadaro

  The Tesla patent # is 381,970   It was issued in 1888 when dc was being distributed
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: jeanna on January 11, 2010, 04:31:25 AM
OK here is my video replication using the joule thief instead of the sparks.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gj7IFCXw9Q (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gj7IFCXw9Q)

I works, folks.
In my view...
We need to understand how to calculate an equivalence of spiky volts and the volts we are accustomed to counting.
Anyone else?

wow, I am pleased!!

jeanna

edit
btw, I found this and copied it. Some of tesla's thoughts on resonance.
Yes Sparks I realize Tesla tuned his circuits. I did not mean to make it sound as though he did not.
j
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: forest on January 11, 2010, 09:51:46 AM
Jeanna,

Can you by using your JouleThief charge 400v electrolytic cap ? How fast can it be done ?
I think you can be interested also that Tesla radiant energy patent from 1900 indicate that you should be able to charge a cap by using a diode  joined  JT output with capacitor when one terminal of cap is connected to earth ground.
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: jeanna on January 11, 2010, 09:29:33 PM
Jeanna,

Can you by using your JouleThief charge 400v electrolytic cap ? How fast can it be done ?
Hi Forest,
Before I had a scope the way I measured my secondary results was with a
full bridge rectifier with
2 additional diodes one each way following the polarity from the bridge, and
a camera flash cap.
Depending on how much I had (of course, because caps fill fast then slow down as they get close to the limit), this filling could take anywhere from 5 seconds to 1 minute.
I stopped using this method long before I got voltages over 150v, so I do not know what will happen.
I would try this again with a smaller secondary to see.


Quote
I think you can be interested also that Tesla radiant energy patent from 1900 indicate that you should be able to charge a cap by using a diode  joined  JT output with capacitor when one terminal of cap is connected to earth ground.
I am interested in this.

thank you,

jeanna
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: tysb3 on January 15, 2010, 04:07:04 AM
just find on russian forum:

http://www.matri-x.ru/forum/index.php?/topic/971-%d1%83%d1%81%d1%82%d0%b0%d0%bd%d0%be%d0%b2%d0%ba%d0%b0-%d1%82%d0%b0%d1%80%d0%b8%d0%b5%d0%bb%d1%8f-%d0%ba%d0%b0%d0%bf%d0%b0%d0%bd%d0%b0%d0%b4%d0%b7%d0%b5/page__st__320
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: Artic_Knight on March 13, 2011, 04:51:35 AM
i havent made it all the way through so pardon me if im repeating ideas here.

firstly current radio transmitters are partial ac systems but 95% of the power is sent over the air waves. its funny how the other 5% traveling through the ground seems louder on a radio that has its antenna properly grounded! in teslas work he reversed the roles transmitting his currents through the ground which has less resistance. this means having a capacitive antenna and a capacitor to block the transmissions from leaving the antenna but leaving the ground untouched so energy can leave it.

the hair pin circuit is for most purposes a normal step up high voltage transformer. note however the large "door knob caps" at the bottom of the rods. they block all flows of energy except a purely static electrical flow. in essence you should be able to make a low scale replication by having the 3rd coil of a joule capped at both ends with a high voltage caps. this should filter out the nasty currents. the coil however will need to be allowed to oscilate at its own frequency which means the right caps in farads needs to be paired with the right coil and needs to be pulsed at the right frequency. it will take a oscilloscope to determine these frequencies which im assuming most have.

lastly to make a spark gap in a solid state form has anyone tried pairing a set of diodes where one goes in one direction and the other diode in the other? if the diodes minimum is set to 100v then it will act as a 100v spark gap. atleast it would appear that way. i havent tested the results.
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: forest on March 13, 2011, 10:23:27 AM
good ! and the results are scary ... due to energy escaping every where it can
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: Tito L. Oracion on March 14, 2011, 07:55:08 AM
ok!

if you want a high amp dc from ac without using diode then STUDY THE CIRCUIT DIAGRAM OF A WELDING MACHINE OK!

AS simple as a piece of cake  ;D
 
;D
 
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: Pirate88179 on March 14, 2011, 09:10:30 AM
But welding machines are AC right?

Bill
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: forest on March 14, 2011, 09:27:31 AM
http://www.dansworkshop.com/electricity-and-electronics/homebuilt-arc-welder.htm

transformers in parallel output in series ?
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: forest on March 14, 2011, 09:29:40 AM
add ferrite core to all transformers and AC-DC inverter on start, feedback output to input , hmm
maybe maybe ?  :o I see a missing piece : capacitor discharge
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: Poit on March 14, 2011, 09:45:09 AM
But welding machines are AC right?

Bill

Welding machines can be both, AC and DC
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: Tito L. Oracion on March 15, 2011, 01:38:54 AM
use pat2pdf and get the obtaining direct from AC, Nikola T.

#413353
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: MrMag on March 15, 2011, 04:43:17 AM
ok!

if you want a high amp dc from ac without using diode then STUDY THE CIRCUIT DIAGRAM OF A WELDING MACHINE OK!

AS simple as a piece of cake  ;D
 
;D


use pat2pdf and get the obtaining direct from AC, Nikola T.

#413353




Tito, I don't know what you are talking about. I think if Tesla had diodes, he would of used them. As a matter of fact, if you look at the first drawing, they do look like diodes.

Can you draw something up to show us what you mean. It should be as easy as a piece of cake.





Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: Mk1 on March 15, 2011, 10:54:49 PM

use pat2pdf and get the obtaining direct from AC, Nikola T.

#413353




Tito, I don't know what you are talking about. I think if Tesla had diodes, he would of used them. As a matter of fact, if you look at the first drawing, they do look like diodes.

Can you draw something up to show us what you mean. It should be as easy as a piece of cake.



I don't think diodes are that great , and BTW great patent nice and simple .

You should have gotten your reading glasses before posting ...

Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: stprue on March 16, 2011, 11:40:27 PM
i havent made it all the way through so pardon me if im repeating ideas here.

firstly current radio transmitters are partial ac systems but 95% of the power is sent over the air waves. its funny how the other 5% traveling through the ground seems louder on a radio that has its antenna properly grounded! in teslas work he reversed the roles transmitting his currents through the ground which has less resistance. this means having a capacitive antenna and a capacitor to block the transmissions from leaving the antenna but leaving the ground untouched so energy can leave it.

the hair pin circuit is for most purposes a normal step up high voltage transformer. note however the large "door knob caps" at the bottom of the rods. they block all flows of energy except a purely static electrical flow. in essence you should be able to make a low scale replication by having the 3rd coil of a joule capped at both ends with a high voltage caps. this should filter out the nasty currents. the coil however will need to be allowed to oscilate at its own frequency which means the right caps in farads needs to be paired with the right coil and needs to be pulsed at the right frequency. it will take a oscilloscope to determine these frequencies which im assuming most have.

lastly to make a spark gap in a solid state form has anyone tried pairing a set of diodes where one goes in one direction and the other diode in the other? if the diodes minimum is set to 100v then it will act as a 100v spark gap. atleast it would appear that way. i havent tested the results.

Spark arrester may be similar to what your looking for.
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: NTesla on August 25, 2012, 09:05:53 AM
Here is my first replication of the Lecher/Tesla Hairpin circuit, showing you can indeed light the bulb submerged in water:

http://youtu.be/uepgegcfpO0
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: TinselKoala on August 25, 2012, 10:07:00 PM
Hey, that is really cool! I subscribed to your channel, keep up the good work. Nice Wimshurst vids too.

You made me get my hands wet, though. But I'm glad I did.... a very cool demonstration that I had not thought of, and that will impress the heck out of some people I know... I hope. Thanks! And I am not kidding, I really mean it. Sometimes I just don't think creatively enough.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxQrBEy1MFo
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 25, 2012, 10:27:50 PM
TK:

Very interesting video...I have no idea how you did that.

Bill
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: NTesla on August 25, 2012, 10:30:00 PM
Hey, that is really cool! I subscribed to your channel, keep up the good work. Nice Wimshurst vids too.

You made me get my hands wet, though. But I'm glad I did.... a very cool demonstration that I had not thought of, and that will impress the heck out of some people I know... I hope. Thanks! And I am not kidding, I really mean it. Sometimes I just don't think creatively enough.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxQrBEy1MFo (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxQrBEy1MFo)

Nice! It would be interesting to see if the current draw/bulb brightness varies in tap water vs. LCW (Low conductivity water) vs. air. Using cold water would probably increase efficiency too.
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: e2matrix on August 26, 2012, 07:35:16 PM
TK:

Very interesting video...I have no idea how you did that.

Bill
I would guess there is a fairly high frequency transmitter inside the black case that the bowl of water sits on.  Power is low enough that the coil needs to be close to it to light up the bulb.  If he had no bowl of water but simply sat the coil on top of the case I suspect it would light up then also.  Because it was a high frequency source the water does not stop it from working.  Water is actually an insulator if it's fairly pure.   I think the reason he 'tosses' it into the water is because if it was slowly brought down to the water it might light up before touching the water so the effect of it lighting because of being in water would be lost. 

Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 26, 2012, 07:45:48 PM
e2:

Thanks....that makes a lot of sense.  I believe you are correct on this.  I did not pay attention to the case the first time I saw it.

Thanks,

Bill
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: TinselKoala on August 27, 2012, 12:46:06 AM
e2:

Thanks....that makes a lot of sense.  I believe you are correct on this.  I did not pay attention to the case the first time I saw it.

Thanks,

Bill

Come on, it's all explained! I've got lots of videos showing the wireless power devices, explaining their performance, showing DC output, scope traces, etc. I don't want to hijack this thread, just look at my YT channel for "wireless power" and it's all explained in those vids!

I just never thought of trying it in water until I saw NTesla's neat experiment, using a bit of a different system, so I thought I'd see what happened. The black box just happened to be handy and have the horizontal antenna already in it.

Funny... that short video has gotten the most "thumbs down" per view than any other video I've posted !!

But I've just uploaded another video with everything in plain view, using a different transmitter, this one not boxed up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnwDh4CsD-c
Title: Re: Hairpin Project
Post by: Pirate88179 on August 27, 2012, 02:30:16 AM
Come on, it's all explained! I've got lots of videos showing the wireless power devices, explaining their performance, showing DC output, scope traces, etc. I don't want to hijack this thread, just look at my YT channel for "wireless power" and it's all explained in those vids!

I just never thought of trying it in water until I saw NTesla's neat experiment, using a bit of a different system, so I thought I'd see what happened. The black box just happened to be handy and have the horizontal antenna already in it.

Funny... that short video has gotten the most "thumbs down" per view than any other video I've posted !!

But I've just uploaded another video with everything in plain view, using a different transmitter, this one not boxed up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnwDh4CsD-c (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnwDh4CsD-c)

TK:

I had posted my question after seeing your video and asking a question on youtube on how you did it....e2 answered me here before I read your answer and explanation on youtube.  I believe I was the first person to rate that video (thumbs up) and I have no idea why anyone would not do the same.  I have not been around here for a while and was not familiar with your power transmission vids.

I just thought it was fascinating and you answered my question with an explanation.  That was all.

Bill

PS I built a heron fountain today and it is also amazing to mess with.  My top bottle empties too fast (air leak)  so I need to tweak it a bit but, the water going higher than any other part of the unit amazes me totally.  It is really cool.