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Mechanical free energy devices => mechanic => Topic started by: Foggy-Notion on December 30, 2009, 07:04:27 AM

Title: Stepping Down a Wimshurst
Post by: Foggy-Notion on December 30, 2009, 07:04:27 AM
Hi,
Can I use a spark plug to pulse the
current from my wimshurst machine?
 
I know it is only in the miliamps but it is
like 20,000volts worth, can I pulse it and
run it through an ignition coil backwards
like a step down transformer?

Well, I'm sure I can, and can get a useful 12 volts
out of the other end but, what's the best way to
pulse it?

Any ideas,
1920s mechanical means or RadioShack Gadget
 
I've heard capactitors might step it down too?
but will caps increase current with each step
down of voltage, the way transformers do?

I've forgotten alot.
I use to run a board called "electric~junta"
years ago using the name Johnny Cool Pants,
but they shut me down, good to see that more
people are in it now, ...Damn the torpedos.





.
Title: Re: Stepping Down a Wimshurst
Post by: Foggy-Notion on December 30, 2009, 10:30:28 AM
Awww man, you guys think I'm kidding huh?
Seriously, does anyone know a good cheap way to pulse High Voltage DC?

Thanks
Title: Re: Stepping Down a Wimshurst
Post by: Steven Dufresne on December 30, 2009, 03:15:43 PM
Hi @Foggy-Notion,
Sure you can use a spark plug; it's just a small spark gap. It does have a lot of sharp edges so you might as well use the existing spark gap and adjust it to however small you want.

Regarding the current a Wimshurst machine, it's microamps, not milliamps.

I haven't stepped down my Wimshurst machine but I have stepped down my small Van de Graaff machine:
 http://rimstar.org/sdenergy/testa/testatika_magnets_hv_to_dc.htm

There's another topic here at overunity.com that starts out asking the same thing as you and with some discussion. Probably best to just go there:
 http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=7669.0
-Steve
http://rimstar.org   http://wsminfo.org
Title: Re: Stepping Down a Wimshurst
Post by: mscoffman on December 30, 2009, 07:00:33 PM

Build a Optical Cubic Haloruhm out of square glass solar-cells (a five sided cube)
directed inward and lower a converted CFL fluorescent lamp down into it, lit by your
Wimhurst's HV caps. If you want more gain daisy chain some additional CFL's and
repeat the process...I think this will work.

:S:MarkSCoffman
Title: Re: Stepping Down a Wimshurst
Post by: Foggy-Notion on December 30, 2009, 11:41:53 PM
"Micro-amps"?  They ran x-ray machines with that?
Well anyway I've heard a Wimshurst can expediate plant growth.
(Was on a suppressed patent over at Rex Research)
Gotta be good for something,

I was trying to be lazy and build a poor man's Testatika.
Guess I'll have to rethink this.
Title: Re: Stepping Down a Wimshurst
Post by: Steven Dufresne on December 30, 2009, 11:42:50 PM
I just found this Windows program that calculates the expected output for a Wimshurst machine. You feed it the specs and it tells you the output.
 http://www.coe.ufrj.br/~acmq/programs/wmd.zip
I found the link to it at the bottom of this page:
 http://www.coe.ufrj.br/~acmq/wimshurst.html
I just ran it and for 31 cm diameter disks, 32 sectors, 1 cm wide sectors, ... the output current should be 17 microamps. Change it to 62 cm diameter and the output current is 37 microamps. Instead change it to 2 cm wide sectors and the output current is 22 microamps. I don't have the formula they're using but I'm sure it can be found online somewhere. I also know that if it were high voltage and milliamps then it'd be very dangerous and yet the machines are typically quite harmless.
-Steve
http://rimstar.org   http://wsminfo.org
Title: Re: Stepping Down a Wimshurst
Post by: Paul-R on December 31, 2009, 01:12:31 PM
Awww man, you guys think I'm kidding huh?
Seriously, does anyone know a good cheap way to pulse High Voltage DC?

Thanks
If what you need is HV and high frequency, the Don Smith people are in this field, and some
are using the power supplies used for neon advertising set ups.
Title: Re: Stepping Down a Wimshurst
Post by: darkspeed on December 31, 2009, 07:43:02 PM
This is what I came up with.

There is a small spark gap between the machine and the input of this circuit.

It works really well.

I size the caps so every ten pulses the 20kv cap hits 130v and every 100 pulses the 400v cap hits 65v
Title: Re: Stepping Down a Wimshurst
Post by: Foggy-Notion on January 01, 2010, 01:51:04 AM
I just ran it and for 31 cm diameter disks, 32 sectors, 1 cm wide sectors, ... the output current should be 17 microamps. Change it to 62 cm diameter and the output current is 37 microamps.

Ok and this is the output (to) the layden jars?
Or is that the actual power of the jumping spark?
Cool links, Thank you, paul, speed and steve.
Title: Re: Stepping Down a Wimshurst
Post by: mscoffman on January 01, 2010, 06:54:11 PM
I just ran it and for 31 cm diameter disks, 32 sectors, 1 cm wide sectors, ... the output current should be 17 microamps. Change it to 62 cm diameter and the output current is 37 microamps.

Ok and this is the output (to) the layden jars?
Or is that the actual power of the jumping spark?
Cool links, Thank you, paul, speed and steve.

Most likely, the continous current to layden jar capacitors. This is sourced
at like 10KV->40KVdc static electric. I think you can find spark current
in other documents.

:S:MarkSCoffman
Title: Re: Stepping Down a Wimshurst
Post by: Foggy-Notion on January 01, 2010, 11:55:11 PM
Most likely, the continous current to layden jar capacitors. This is sourced
at like 10KV->40KVdc static electric. I think you can find spark current
in other documents.

:S:MarkSCoffman

Thanks Mark, and everyone else.
It sounds like there is a bit more juice when it leaps in a spark.
I wonder if I some how step it down to 700 volts and then
send each pulse to a 36awg electromagnet, if I could get
some kind of use out of it.  Solenoid launcher for my
perpetual bowling ball machine? (I'm an artist)
...otherwise I'd just go M.E.G.
Cool, I can smell the ozoned air when I operate Wimshurst.


.
Title: Re: Stepping Down a Wimshurst
Post by: Mk1 on January 02, 2010, 12:14:22 AM
I would try to insert a Mot secondary in series with the spark gap , and check the voltage on the primary ...
Title: Re: Stepping Down a Wimshurst
Post by: Steven Dufresne on January 02, 2010, 03:39:17 PM
I just ran it and for 31 cm diameter disks, 32 sectors, 1 cm wide sectors, ... the output current should be 17 microamps. Change it to 62 cm diameter and the output current is 37 microamps.

Ok and this is the output (to) the layden jars?
Or is that the actual power of the jumping spark?
Cool links, Thank you, paul, speed and steve.

Here's the question I asked and the reply I got from Dr. Antonio Carlos M.
de Queiroz, the owner of the webpage:
 http://www.coe.ufrj.br/~acmq/wimshurst.html

On Fri, Jan 01, 2010 at 02:38:52PM +0000, Steven Dufresne wrote:
> Hello Dr. de Queiroz,
> On reading your webpage:
>   http://www.coe.ufrj.br/~acmq/wimshurst.html
> and running your program I'm wondering exactly what the output current
> represents. Is it the current during the maximum length spark or is it the
> current from the collectors going into the Leyden jars during charging or
> something else?

"It's the current that charges the Leyden jars, or the short-circuit
current of the machine. The current is limited by the maximum electric
field at the disk surfaces at the calculated value.
You can measure the current by connecting a microamperimeter between
one of the terminals and the neutralizers, while leaving the other
terminal disconnected. Disconnect the Leyden jars and don't make sparks
during the measurement, or the meter may be destroyed."

-Steve
http://rimstar.org   http://wsminfo.org
Title: Re: Stepping Down a Wimshurst
Post by: Paul-R on January 02, 2010, 04:12:55 PM
Hi,
Can I use a spark plug to pulse the
current from my wimshurst machine?
Maybe you should use Tesla's capacitor + spark gap
method and stop the voltage building to high levels:
http://keelynet.com/tesla/00685958.pdf
See also 685957.
Title: Re: Stepping Down a Wimshurst
Post by: Foggy-Notion on January 02, 2010, 10:04:59 PM
Thanks for the replies everyone.

Yeah Dr. Antonio has a great page doesn't he?
From waht he says, it sounds like the spark pulse
is much more current than the layden charging curent.
I can get such a spark once a second or so with ease.

Well looking at Franklin's Static motor...
http://www.rexresearch.com/elstatix/jef_fig1.gif

It just doesn't look like it would be very powerful,
however it also looks like the reason for that is the
design, (not one coil or electromagnet involved)

If I did have an electromagnet reaction device and a
flywheel, I could get some real use out of it maybe.

I've read that fine wire (#39 awg) electromagnets have
a powerful violent repelling reaction with just 600 volts
with current in the miliamps.

And it is my understanding that when you step down voltage you incrase amperage 1:1  Thus every time you cut the voltage in half, you double the amperage.  So if a wimshurt is putting out say, 300,000 volts when the spark makes that leap into the great unknown for reason of over crowding at the copper ball and pub, if I cut that voltage in half repeatedly, and double the current each time I do, eventually I should have 585 volts after 9 divisions by 2, thus doubled my amperage x9

But the ampers in the actual spark jump could be much higher than that of the layden charging current.  A bigger wheel with bigger sectors and bigger jars would also increase power as Antonio said in so many words, but even now this little thing can send a grown man accross the room if shocked, and that is our built-in automatic bio magnet repelling us from that shock, or the braiin's electric charge to our leg muscles saying Wooooe!  meaning our brain has a lot of electrical current, (or) our muscles are an over unity device, in the matter that their reaction to electricity is more powerful than the electricity itself, er? straying from the subject...

...if this little wheel is powerful enough to make a 200lb man jump,
than I'm sure it can make two opposing HV electromagnets Jump.


As you see here...
http://www.sparkmuseum.com/FRICTION.HTM
some of these induction machines are rather simple and if you could
line up ten big plastic wheels or even 50 "Free AOL" junk mail CDs
(I saved them all) you could spin them all with a small motor.

But wheels the size of this beauty...
http://physics.kenyon.edu/EarlyApparatus/Titlepage/Static_Electricity.html
would surely produce some juice.

Here's another little gem for forgotten electrostatic gizmos.
http://physics.unl.edu/history/histinstr/electrostatics.html

Some of these things could even help in other applications.








Title: Re: Stepping Down a Wimshurst
Post by: gauschor on January 31, 2010, 09:00:46 PM
Trying to get usable power from a Wimshurst is an interesting thought. What I've read until now is that no one gets usable power out of it, not even for an LED most websites claim. Considering how painful it is, when you get stroke by it this almost seems unrealistic.

I've built now a Toepler Influence Machine instead of a Wimshurst, powered by handcraft of course ;) The advantage of Toepler is, you must spin only 1 disc, which eases up a lot of headache in construction. I had 16-32 segments and a disc of 50cm diameter. So, the result is... I've been able to light an LED - if I may say so. To be honest, the LED flickers on very very low brightness - but it "works". I put the LED in between the spark gap: one leg connected to the first electrode and the other leg about some millimeters away from the second electrode, therefore the frequency of the discharge sparks is higher. Otherwise if I directly connect both LED-legs with the electrodes the LED goes dark again. So a spark gap obviously is necessary.

Now also interesting is that: I built a Teslacoil and since one conductor of the both electrodes of the Toepler machine is quite long, I used it to create multiple windings for a Teslacoil (the primary windings only) before the conductor reaches the spark gap. If I now touch with one leg of the LED the top/peak of the Tesla Coil (as you know, the coil is not connected to anything) I get the same flickering of the LED (maybe a little darker) as when putting the LED directly in between the spark gap.

I am still not sure if I made something wrong or if the Teslacoil gets its power via some way I did not recognize ... well but that said, it's interesting to experiment with such things.
Title: Re: Stepping Down a Wimshurst
Post by: darkspeed on February 01, 2010, 06:55:54 AM
gauschor, the led is a diode and you have placed it in the path of a high frequency ( between caps ) high voltage source.

It is most likley dead and just arcing internally.. Try a T-2 neon bulb http://www.normanlamps.com/images/4-T2.jpg (http://www.normanlamps.com/images/4-T2.jpg) this will give you much better results
Title: Re: Stepping Down a Wimshurst
Post by: gauschor on February 01, 2010, 02:32:08 PM
Hmmm... thought about that too, that there could only be a discharge in the diode itself. Hard to tell for sure, since the casing is not very transparent. The diode is not dead though, it still works on normal battery input.
Thanks for the hint with the T2, that would definitely show better results I guess.
Title: Re: Stepping Down a Wimshurst
Post by: Foggy-Notion on February 02, 2010, 01:52:59 AM
Yeah I've heard stories where people with a coil, connected to nothing,
get shocked by it, repeatedly, over and over.  It is getting inducted by
probably radio waves and the lines in their shop.  And indeed could be
used as an inducted collector of no-pay electricity, from the wires in
your wall, without "stealing" their juice at all, regardless of what their
pie hole tries to flap at you.

However you should probably be more concerned with the fact that your
body is absorbing these magnetic waves from the wall at 60mhz all day
long, and this is proven to be bad for you many ways, such studies are
suppressed of course.
Title: Re: Stepping Down a Wimshurst
Post by: sparks on February 02, 2010, 01:04:12 PM
     What if we put an ammeter around the spark gap.  There seems to be considerable current flow in a spark gap and the ammeter is designed to convert current flow into voltage without intrusion into the loop circuit.  Least the old ones that you didnt have to put a battery in.  Just an annular ring of laminated steel and carbon.
Title: Re: Stepping Down a Wimshurst
Post by: Steven Dufresne on February 02, 2010, 04:06:42 PM
     What if we put an ammeter around the spark gap.  There seems to be considerable current flow in a spark gap and the ammeter is designed to convert current flow into voltage without intrusion into the loop circuit.  Least the old ones that you didnt have to put a battery in.  Just an annular ring of laminated steel and carbon.

Are you sure you're not thinking of measuring voltage with an analog moving coil meter when you say "the ammeter is designed to convert current flow into voltage without intrusion"? My voltmeter has a 10megaohm resistance. Putting this in parallel with the spark gap would cause it to steal proportionally less current. But ammeters are typically only tens to hundreds of ohms, depending on what scale you have them on. The lower the current scale, the higher the resistance. (all this is moot if you have some sort of analog ammeter that's different)

So putting an ammeter in parallel with the spark gap would be shorting out the Leyden jars and the spark gap with a lowish resistance alternate path from one collector to the other collector. Plus, if voltage does build up then when the arc occurs it will cause a sudden rush of current through the ammeter and potentially damage it.

However, if all you care about is grabbing the current in realtime (i.e. with no voltage buildup) that's going from one collector to the other, then widen the spark gap so that it's irrelevant, remove the Leyden jars and just put your ammeter where the spark gap was.
-Steve
http://rimstar.org   http://wsminfo.org
Title: Re: Stepping Down a Wimshurst
Post by: gauschor on February 02, 2010, 07:18:56 PM
Hmmm ok, I give in, it's really pointless to power a LED purely by an electrostatic machine :( It works with the small neon stick though. *Sigh*... how did Baumann created that much power out of it. Peter Lindemann thinks that Baumann caught "cold electricity" using metal grids and that about 20 of these grids with cylindrical form were put into the large tubes on the left and right side. If that is true it would mean that in the center of all these cylinder grids would be a small spark gap. The grid should collect the large amounts of Radiant energy (like in Edwin Gray device). But then why is the big coil around it? Is that the transformer for the much larger current he receives from the grid and uses it to transform it down? Baumann could have put the "collecting grid cylinders" into the large transformer coil simply because of space management...
And if it were that way, how did he manage to create/receive Radiant energy from it? A spark gap only won't be enough for that, or would it? Tesla said he needed the spark to be less than 100 µseconds in duration to achive that effect...If the Testatika disc has 60 segments and makes only 1 full loop per second, it is only a frequency of 60 Hertz, which would be like bulbs in common households. So he has 60 discharges per second on a small sparkgap. But then... isn't the duration of the sparks longer than 100 µseconds? So how would he get radiant energy? Questions over questions... and no answers :(

Anyone already tried to do a simple transform of the high voltage of a Wimshurst into low voltage/larger current? E.g. if I make a 5mm distance in the sparkgap (guessing 1 kV/mm), and want 12 Volts I need to do:

U1/U2 = N1/N2 ... let's say I use 2000 Windings on the primary:
5000/12 = 2000/x => 5000x = 24000 => x = 24000/5000 =~ 5 Windings on the secondary site. Is it even worth to try it out?, because I am sure someone must have done it already with a more or less useful result :s would be nice to hear about that.
Title: Re: Stepping Down a Wimshurst
Post by: sparks on February 03, 2010, 12:09:29 AM
   I was talking about a clampon ammeter that is a common tool for electricians.  It measures the change in the magnetic field about a current carrying conductor.  It only works if the current has some kind of flux density change.  DC ripple or ac.   The currents in the spark gap can easily get to thousands of amperes if a capactor spark gap and dead short are used. 
Title: Re: Stepping Down a Wimshurst
Post by: mscoffman on February 03, 2010, 07:35:16 PM
I was talking about a clampon ammeter that is a common tool for electricians.  It measures the change in the magnetic field about a current carrying conductor. 

@sparks

Yes...that is correct. The ampere probe becomes a
transformer with the external (user) wire becoming
the single (partial) primary turn. Transformers work with
AC only but are non-contact primary to secondary.

:S:MarkSCoffman
Title: Re: Stepping Down a Wimshurst
Post by: mscoffman on February 03, 2010, 07:46:00 PM
Yeah I've heard stories where people with a coil, connected to nothing,
get shocked by it, repeatedly, over and over.  It is getting inducted by
probably radio waves and the lines in their shop.  And indeed could be
used as an inducted collector of no-pay electricity, from the wires in
your wall, without "stealing" their juice at all, regardless of what their
pie hole tries to flap at you.

However you should probably be more concerned with the fact that your
body is absorbing these magnetic waves from the wall at 60mhz all day
long, and this is proven to be bad for you many ways, such studies are
suppressed of course.


@foggy-notion;

There is a subtle difference between radio EMF waves and magnetic waves.
Radio waves are emitted by the user into freespace and therefore generally
represent lost energy. (Unless the user expects an r^2 diminished echo of some
type). So would be amenable to legal interception.

Pure magnetic field waves on the other hand, link the primary and the secondary windings.
Secondary load is necessary to make the primary conduct. In other the primary user
expects a magnetic echo and pays if the energy is intercepted by something or anything.
So an efficient transformer does "steal" power from it's primary winding.

---

The body does not intercept either type of energy efficiently except at
certain frequencies, but in any case excessive exposure probably is undesirable.

:S:MarkSCoffman

Title: Re: Stepping Down a Wimshurst
Post by: mscoffman on February 03, 2010, 11:29:35 PM

Here is a link to the online book;

Modern High-Speed Influence Machines
circa 1922

http://ebook.lib.hku.hk/CADAL/B31428137/

There are entries for electrostatic motors and other stuff.

One of the primary applications back then was HV-DC powersupplies
for x-radiation tubes at 10->15KVdc. Electrons always emit x-rays
when then they decelerate. I wonder if anyone has ever done
an amateur radio QSO contact using a vacuum tube linear amplifier
powered by a Wimshurst machine HV power supply? This as opposed
to spark-gap transmitter which was popular way back then. These two
technologies didn't exist contemporaneously, but they form the
basis, I think, of the Testatika Machine function.

:S:MarkSCoffman

Title: Re: Stepping Down a Wimshurst
Post by: gauschor on February 06, 2010, 01:16:38 AM
Back to transforming down a Wimshurst (or in my case a Toepler Machine): I' have seen it work with small neon bulbs, but I still want usable power, even if it's only a LED. While directly putting an LED in between the spark gap of the 2 electrodes (but let remain a small spark gap!) the hardly visible flickering of the LED could have been a spark-discharge in the LED itself.


          sparkgap
 |--------> <---------|
 ||                       ||
 || taker               || taker2
 ||                       ||
 \/                       \/
 o______disc_____o


While the sketch above is the default machine I changed now some things: I made the spark gap very small and and connected the other end of the spark gap with the top of the tesla coil (which has ~ 1600 windings as already said) and the end from "taker1" with the bottom of the coil. Around the Teslacoil I made a small ugly coil (hand made) with about the double diameter than the teslacoil. So it looked like this:
                               
            small coil
               s s s s s                Teslacoil
 |--------OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO-----|
 |             s s s s s                                           |
 |                                                                   |
 |                                                                   |
 |                                   small sparkgap        |
 |                         |---------><----------------------|
 ||                       ||
 || taker1              || taker2
 ||                       ||
 \/                       \/
 o______disc_____o


On both ends of the small coil I connected the LED. Besides I completely removed the Leyden Jar, because it slowed down the spark frequency.

The result is: the LED brightened up significantly by the inducted current. It is still not very bright though, but definitely brighter than directly in between the big spark gap! Also I am pretty sure it is not a discharge within the LED itself. So I guess there has definitely taken place a transformation of the high voltage into something lower voltage, but with more current.

Also it seems that the high voltage likes the Tesla coil much more than the commonly wound coils. When trying to connect both cables to a common coil instead of the teslacoil, the LED could hardly get lit. Therefore Tesla is the way to go.

I am sure there is even more power to catch or transform. Well I'll keep you informed if I find out new things :)

Btw. I hate ASCII Art... :P, next time I will take a picture.
Title: Re: Stepping Down a Wimshurst
Post by: mscoffman on February 06, 2010, 01:59:18 AM
Very often they show using a fluorescent lamp lighting up
when touched to a Wimshurst HV supply. Surround the (CFL) lamp
with some solarcells. Those lamps are relatively efficient at
converting high voltage to light. Solar cells are <20% efficient
but you will get some DC current. Besides the auto ignition coil
(at about 30KV) this should work too.  Check out an auto parts
supplier for an auto ignition coil of type suggested in that "Emergency Light"
experiment by Inhotep, they are relatively low cost. Spark Gaps are inefficient
as sparks generally have to travel in both directions across the gap.

---

Here are some experimental calculations. This is for use with a Lord Kelvin
Water Dropper electrostatic generator (see Google). Lets say we can
generate 100microamps at 10 - 15KVdc. Lets say we build a simple
pump from a battery powered alarm clock mechanism to transfer water
back up to the top. Lets say that 100microamps runs the clock mechanism
but at 1.5VDC battery. While it's 100microamps in both cases there is 10K to 1
difference in voltage therefore the same difference in wattage. That's four
orders of magnitude ratio of potential difference for use in any conversion
inefficiency and mis-estimates I may have made in the calculations. So
this looks very doable to me.

:S:MarkSCoffman
Title: Re: Stepping Down a Wimshurst
Post by: Foggy-Notion on February 06, 2010, 06:16:12 PM

A quite visible snapping minature lightning bolt even once a second at 100,000+ volts is nothing to sneaze at. And that is the toys we're talking about. A larger one with 4' wheel would have much more power.
Or the smaller toy spinning much faster.

You can charge a battery bank with a 200' insulated wire, thrown up into a tree, with a spark plug on the other end. Connect that to an ignition coil used in reverse and then to the battery bank and ground.

Therefore I am sure a good size Wimshurst could do same, or better, and spins with ease so this is for sure
something that could operate on a wind up spring principle, or a sand bag weight hanging on a hook.

But the fact that it spins so resistance free means it can be machined to perfect ballance and put in a car,
geared quite high to the drive, with no real exra drag or work at all for the engine, yet spin as fast as a CD,
delivering quite a bit more than the hand cranked toys. It means charging batteries en route.
It means 1000+ miles for an electric car between charges, or possibly indefinite driving,

I've never heard about this idea, so I like to call it my own. ;op
Looks good on paper anyway, so does the same idea with a faraday disc, instead of a wimshurst.
Especially if an older analog ampmeter can help utilize the output? ...as Sparks seemed to suggest?
Some other statements caught my eye as well...



Quote:
"The currents in the spark gap can easily get to thousands of amperes
if a capactor spark gap and dead short are used. "

Reply:
What? Really? All originating with a wimshurst? If so, tell me more.



Quote:
"Transformers work with AC only but are non-contact primary to secondary"

Reply:
It is my understanding transformers will work with pulsed DC as well.
Including spiking DC, as from a joule thief, which is a form of pulsation.
Just needs some kind of collapsing field, right?


Quote:
"In other the primary user expects a magnetic echo and pays if the energy is intercepted
by something or anything. So an efficient transformer does "steal" power from it's primary winding."

Reply:
Yeah? Is suppressing free clean energy, confiscating equiptment and murdering inventors, stealing?
ok, just checking, so like all the electronic toys from distraction central are beaming EMF echos
through my body and through my walls, all day anyway, especially my minuture experimental enduction coil
apperatus, so, can they really be sure what the echo is, or for what purpose it's being made?

And if I send the AC to a rectifying DC maker then to a switch, which turns it on and off real fast,
to a long wire far from any grid wires, where at the end, be my primary and 5 induction secondaries,
well, ...what echo?



In any case, if I can pay for the echo, and then send my induction received juice to a battery bank.
then use that battery bank later to power a primary induction coil surounded by 5 secondaries and,
and what?

Power my primary with my battery bank and disconnect from the grid altogether. If they like that better.
Regardless, there must be 100 ways to make free electricity all day long, listed in this forum alone.










Title: Re: Stepping Down a Wimshurst
Post by: gauschor on March 29, 2010, 04:57:02 PM
The last couple of weeks I had to rebuild my Wimshurst/Toepler device multiple times and tried further experiments in order to achieve more power... I wished I could post success, but it didn't  :(

One thing I found out is that the Multimeter is somehow unusable in regards of measuring the Voltage - even though it is stepped down! To recall the construction for readers: I have a Teslacoil (1600 windings) which gets power via a small spark gap. The Teslacoil induces the power into a smaller coil of 50 windings. After that I put the received electric current into a bridge rectifier and attach an LED or the Multimeter on the outer ends.

The Multimeter shows confusing results with following settings:
maximum Voltage 250 V: Display shows ~200-300 Volts
maximum Voltage 200 V: Display shows ~20-30 Volts
maximum Voltage 20 V: Display shows ~1-3 Volts
maximum Voltage 2000mV: Display shows ~1400 mVolts

In fact I do not even know what I am measuring. One good thing however: the step-down process achieved that I have no spikes anymore causing the Voltmeter to hit 1000+ (which happens if directly connecting to the spark gap). The induced Voltage seems "stable". Also the induced Voltage seems to be on the "positive amplitude" only, so it is not an AC but somehow more like pulsed DC. Also I can put the LED directly on the ends of the smaller coil and get the exact same result as with the bridge rectifier.

The weird 300 Volts remember me of the Linden Experiment when Baumann achieved 700 Volts with his "sandwich". Maybe this was the same type of Voltage as the 300 Volts in here. It's not real Voltage it seems, more like a Frequency or some Mixture between Voltage and Frequency?  But in the end... what can you do with this result?

Although the LED is lit up on 1/3 brightness it is not enough to power anything else. You people were totally right. One cannot light up even a 1 Watt-bulb.
Oh wait, I nearly forgot: I can charge a small electrolyte capacitor, so probably it's possible to even recharge a small battery by a lot of handwork ;)

I also built a transformer with 16.000 windings on the larger coil, however the resistance of the long wire caused the induced effect to be much weaker, therefore the LED darker, so not usable at all.

Oh yes.. one other thing: if you take the wire coming from the spark gap you can cut it in two, and put both ends in a cup filled with dry filtersand (the one you use for the swimming pool filters). The electrostatic charge will be transferred without loss obviously (at least withing a 5cm distance). I don't know if it helps anyone though... I just tried it out in hope maybe the crystal sand would oscillate and amplify the power :s

Sigh... that's it. To be honest, I am slowly giving up... The Methernita must have found a secret, something that is not that easy to disclose (as always with secrets). Any new input for experimentation?  :-[
Title: Re: Stepping Down a Wimshurst
Post by: wojwrobel on April 08, 2010, 08:18:18 PM
hello

I'm new to this subject but i would like to add something

why don't we try to use this machine like in patent US4897592 ELECTROSTATIC ENERGY FIELD POWER GENERATING SYSTEM
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4897592.pdf

this machine does exactly what we need changes static potential to DC voltage
and the most important thing is that energy required to generate power is just to create a static charge and rotate the disks ,

its something like in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0hXYfvnND0
5:10 - 8:00  (this video is so old but every time i watch it it makes me thinking , this is basically free energy concept shown in very understandable way)

and the most important information is that there is no charge exchange so you charge this machine only once so all power it needs is just to rotate

and since there is no collapsing magnetic field like it is in regular power generators the rotation don't need so much power so you can connect many machines like that in series to get more power !!! 

cheers from poland
wojsciech
Title: Re: Stepping Down a Wimshurst
Post by: Steven Dufresne on April 08, 2010, 09:33:35 PM
why don't we try to use this machine like in patent US4897592 ELECTROSTATIC ENERGY FIELD POWER GENERATING SYSTEM
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4897592.pdf

this machine does exactly what we need changes static potential to DC voltage
and the most important thing is that energy required to generate power is just to create a static charge and rotate the disks ,

Hi wojsciech,
I've tried it, but it's very hard to build properly due to the high rotation speed needed. Hyde said the effect didn't start until around 6000RPM. So far I've been unsuccessful. I'll try again in the future if I don't succeed with what I'm doing now. Here's my webpage about it:
 http://rimstar.org/sdenergy/hyde_generator
and here's the thread here at overunity.com where we've discussed it:
 http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=6790.0

its something like in this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o0hXYfvnND0
5:10 - 8:00  (this video is so old but every time i watch it it makes me thinking , this is basically free energy concept shown in very understandable way)

and the most important information is that there is no charge exchange so you charge this machine only once so all power it needs is just to rotate

and since there is no collapsing A field like it is in regular power generators the rotation don't need so much power so you can connect many machines like that in series to get more power !!! 

I don't think this is the principle of the Hyde generator. I think he started out doing that but then at around 6000RPM he started getting 300kV spikes as output, which he then rectified to DC. These spikes weren't what he expected.
-Steve
http://rimstar.org   http://wsminfo.org
Title: Re: Stepping Down a Wimshurst
Post by: wojwrobel on April 08, 2010, 10:47:06 PM
hello

i understand this as machine that converts high electrostatic potential to lower potential dc ,

but this machine needs external source of electrostatic potential, positive and negative !!! often understand as positive and ground !! which is wrong negative is not a ground !!

like o said its all about CHARGIN BY INDUCTION 

and if you look closely to rectification (fig 6 in patent) it has dual variant rectifier 38A and 38B which meen that plates 82 and 84 will be charged one + second - and vice versa when there is position 72 and 76

so our external potential have to reach for + to disk 26 and 22 and - to disk 24 and 20
and its very far from disks 18 + and disk 16- which supply electric field thats why i A that voltage potential at disk 16 and 18 must be very big i would say 100-150 kv to make it work

please try to understand what im trying to tell you ok

wojsciech
Title: Re: Stepping Down a Wimshurst
Post by: Steven Dufresne on April 08, 2010, 11:51:43 PM
I understand what you're saying. My ground was negative with respect to the positive - so at first I'd say it doesn't matter. However, you're right because the rest of the device and structure is at ground potential. So the ground/negative plate was 0 volts with respect to it's surroundings. That is a problem.

So a few months ago I modified my Cockroft-Walton voltage multiplier so that it has three outputs: HV+, ground, HV-:
 http://rimstar.org/equip/pos_neg_voltage_multiplier.htm
I tried it again but using the HV+ and HV- instead. Unfortunately my multiplier has ripple. I've found over the years that if you have ripple, even 1 or 2 volts, the ripple gets multiplied if there is ionization going on somewhere. I first learned that years ago with this experiment:
  http://rimstar.org/sdenergy/testa/potsmk1.htm
So this meant that even though my power supply was HV DC with small ripple, the device ended up with HV DC with very large ripple.

So when I try again I will fix my rotors and stators so there is no ionization -no sharp edges. Then the ripple won't matter as much. I might also try and use a different HV DC source that doesn't have ripple.

EDIT: Oh, and when Hyde got his 300kV spikes while the rotors were turning at 6000RPM he was using only 3kV across the exitor plates. This information is from Moray B. King's book "Quest for Zero Point Energy" from his conversations with Hyde.
-Steve
http://rimstar.org   http://wsminfo.org
Title: Re: Stepping Down a Wimshurst
Post by: gauschor on April 09, 2010, 01:38:28 AM
phew... 6000 RPM is a lot...

Say... does anyone of you know an Influence generator which works somehow like the wimshurst, but has no friction and only 1 disk rotating? The wimshurst and toepler slow down a lot because of the wires of neutralizer etc. touching the segments. These frictional contacts are the biggest problem.
Else one could feedback the electrostatic power (saved into a leyden jar) to the source disk or onto a second disc on the same axis working after the principle of an electrostatic motor and create a perpetuum mobile. There are some inspiring clips on youtube like that http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpemKuf6X_c&feature=related

Any builds?


Oh, and another thing: this guy "Evert" has an interesting theory on a possible electrostatic electricity generator http://www.evert.de/eft768e.htm For those of you who speak german, this whole text is also available in german language. I am currently trying to build the small version of his suggested device, although I doubt somehow that much power (if any at all...) will be generated. We will see... Unfortunately he has never build any device himself, so one must build by the rule of the thumb.
Title: Re: Stepping Down a Wimshurst
Post by: wojwrobel on April 09, 2010, 09:18:33 AM
hello

ok i slept with this and have idea how it work
so the stationary stator 20 and 22 receives alternately positive and negative charges (when 20 is pos, 22 is neg and vice verse, cycle 1 and 2 ) that is possible only when connection 100 is not there!!! i dont now if its mistake or inventor wanted to show that this influence does mater , well if disk 20, 22 dont rotate and 24,26 rotate there cant be fixed connection so i think inventor how charges interact - + - + - +...

neg charge induces pos charge in sector at disk 20 -cycle 1 (neg side)
pos charge induces neg charge in sector at disk 22 -cycle 1 (pos side)
and
neg charge induces pos charge in sector at disk 24 which induces neg charge in sector at disk 20 -cycle 2 (neg side)
pos charge induces neg charge in sector at disk 26 which induces neg charge in sector at disk 22 -cycle 2 (pos side)

and since the pair of sectors at disk 20, 22 receive pos and neg charges at the same time there is in balance of the charges so they wand to be exchanged which is happening thru rectifier creating current

wojsciech
Title: Re: Stepping Down a Wimshurst
Post by: wojwrobel on April 10, 2010, 09:38:06 PM
hello

i was thinking all day today about this machine and it gets me to beggining !!!

the idea is to conver static charges to electricity right??

and the law of physic says:


An electromagnetic field is an area in which electric and magnetic forces are interacting. It arises from electric charges in motion. Electromagnetic fields are directly related to the strength and direction of the force that a charged particle, called the "test" charge, would be subject to under the electromagnetic force caused by another charged particle or group of particles, called the source.

An electromagnetic field is best understood as a mathematical function or property of spacetime, but may be represented as a group of vectors, arrows with specific length and direction. For a static electric field, meaning there is no motion of source charges, the force F→ on a test charge is F→ = qE→, where q is the value of the test charge and E→ is the vector electric field. For a static magnetic field (caused by moving charge inside an overall neutral group of charges, or a bar magnet, for example) the force is given by F→ = qv→ × B→, where v→ is the charge velocity, B→ is the vector magnetic field, and the × indicates a cross-product of vectors.

A stationary charge produces an electric field, while a moving charge additionally produces a magnetic field. Since velocity is a relative concept dependent on one's choice of reference frame, magnetism and electricity are not independent, but linked together, hence the term electromagnetism.

so why dont we build a machine different that this one !!!!

what you guys think

Title: Re: Stepping Down a Wimshurst
Post by: gauschor on April 10, 2010, 10:27:04 PM
I think that the charged particles would not move in a circular way (if this is what it's supposed to do, judging from the sketch). Also I wonder how you will charge the particles if there is an insulator between the static charge fields from the Wimshurst and the particle pipe.

I believe what you say is true, that an electric field in motion creates a magnetic field. But for the most part a small electric field itself is simply too weak for getting an usable induction effect. You can try to collect induction current by trying to hold a coil next to the moving segments of a wimshurst device (which are charged too), but you will most likely see it is too weak.

But maybe I also understand something wrong / misinterprete your sketch.
Title: Re: Stepping Down a Wimshurst
Post by: wojwrobel on April 11, 2010, 12:38:59 PM
hello

i forgot to  mark pump, is there to move particles at the side....

anyway from wikipedia

"The B-field can be defined in many equivalent ways based on the effects it has on its environment. For instance, a particle having an electric charge, q, and moving in a B-field with a velocity, v, experiences a force, F, called the Lorentz force (see below). In SI units, the Lorentz force equation is

F=q(vxB)

where × is the vector cross product.

so our magnetic field will depent directly from q  and v so the greater the charge and speed of moving (particles) the higher our magnetic field will be !!!!! and since we move particles in closed loop there is no limit to speed and we can charge our particle to very high charge because from our wimshurts machines can produce large potential it all depends from size of the disk and 1/3 of size is our potential in kv

wojsciech


Title: Re: Stepping Down a Wimshurst
Post by: wojwrobel on April 11, 2010, 02:45:11 PM
hello

you know what its a good idea to try moving a coil of wife in electric A !!!!

magnetic field lines and electric field lines are identical but have different properties

so when you move magnetic field thru coil of wire you give when N pole push of free electrons and when S pole pull of electrons right

i have to try this setup
Title: Re: Stepping Down a Wimshurst
Post by: gauschor on April 12, 2010, 11:05:40 AM
Hmmm, looking at this picture it should be possible to create an influence device with the help of magnets, with no touching/frictional contact necessary like in the wimshurst. I'll have to try that out again.
Title: Re: Stepping Down a Wimshurst
Post by: gauschor on April 22, 2010, 12:13:36 AM
Hmm, just informational post... I mentioned some posts before Everts electrostatic power generator. I build his device but eventually found out that it will not work, except you have a hi-tech laboratory on your side. Evert claims that the Ether pressure can push electrostatic charge in his rotor device (see his website for more detailled instructions) to create enough current for common usage (current is the thing we miss on all the Wimshurst devices).

In a documentary I have seen that an "Ether pressure" is measurable and happens if you manage to put 2 very very polished plates opposite to each other by using a distance of only micro or nanomillimeters between them. Unfortunately no hobbyist can achieve this small distance, not to mention how precise the rotor and its ball bearings must be that it will not touch the other plates (regarding Everts device). I would say it is impossible to build for mainstream and even a headache for research.

Back to the Stepping down of a Wimshurst: I tried some more things but none gave reasonable or usable results. Yesterday I stepped upon the "Magnet Resonance Amplifier" http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Magnetic_Resonance_Amplifier
I wonder if the Thestatika uses this kind of feature in the middle of their cylinders to create power: a piezo crystal which maybe is pulsed by the electrostatics instead of the high audio signal source? Just a thought... maybe the Methernita also used magnets the way it is shown on the sketch...
Title: Re: Stepping Down a Wimshurst
Post by: wojwrobel on April 22, 2010, 12:08:12 PM
Hello

im still sticking to my "charging by induction" video and after giving it some time to settle in my heat i came to this idea (see sketh)

now the question is how big potential sould we use as exiter (rotor) and how big the sectors sould be ? and the szie of machine to make some usable power?
Title: Re: Stepping Down a Wimshurst
Post by: Steven Dufresne on April 22, 2010, 03:26:12 PM
Hi @wojwrobel,
The amount of current will depend on at least three things (ignoring the A, losses): the voltage you supply (V), the capacitance between opposing sectors during Cycle 1 (C), and the speed of rotation (T, sort of).

For the capacitance, when two sectors are facing each other they form a plate capacitor, so you can use the standard formula for a plate capacitor to figure that out:
 http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/pplate.html

Once you have the capacitance you can then work on how much current you want. This helps to choose the voltage you'll need to get that current. For a capacitor, C=Q/V, where Q is the amount of charge on each plate in units of coulombs. Rearranging the formula for the voltage we get, V=Q/C.

Current (I) is charge per second in the wire, so I=Q/T. T is time and that's where the speed of rotation comes in. Each time two sectors face each other (Cycle 1) you'll have made Q amount of charge pass through the wire and each time they're no longer facing each other (Cycle 2) Q amount of charge will have gone the other way through the wire. Let's say that only the positive disk rotates and that there are 20 sectors on it. If it rotates at 150 RPM, that's 150 / 60 seconds/minute = 2.5 rotations per second. Multiply by the number of sectors, 2.5 * 20 = 50 sectors/second. Multiply by the number of cycldes, 50 * 2 = 100 cycles/second. We invert that since T is really seconds/cycle (time). So T is 1/100 = 0.01 seconds/cycle.

So first use the formula for capacitance to select your dimensions (area of each sector, distance between opposing sectors, dielectric constant of material between opposing sectors), and then you'll have C.

Choose desired current in amps, I. Choose a rotation speed and work out T like above. Rearranging I=Q/T for the charge, we get Q=IT. So now you know Q. We already saw that V=Q/C. So now you know V. Next, realize that V is stupidly high so go back and choose new values for things until you have a reasonable V.

Something like that anyway.

Oh, make sure you insulate everything very well, otherwise you'll have huge losses due to ionization, decreasing V, and you won't get anywhere.
-Steve
http://rimstar.org   http://wsminfo.org
Title: Re: Stepping Down a Wimshurst
Post by: wojwrobel on April 22, 2010, 09:05:07 PM
Hello Steve

OK i did a model on paper for 1m in diameter disks just positive potential

so i made just 8 sectors on it because i think it don't mater how many sectors its still the same capacitance right?

so 8 sectors each have 460 square centimeter so total or my capacitor is 3680 square centimeters which is 0,368 square meter

its made of two disks 1mm each with air bearings , it means that in between sectors are small holes on angle so a bit of air goes in between plates but just a little to reduce friction

anyways its 2 times 1mm so spaced apart 2mm which is 0,0002 m

OK since we have 2 x 1 mm plexi i will use 50 kv as potential and plexi dielectric strength is 30kv/mm so it souled be ok, i know its a lot but there is no other way except going even bigget with disks but 1m is enough

so our capacitance of all sectors is accordind to website that you have provided
is 0.055390623 uF with k for plexi 3.4 if you want to use glass i think its better because k for glass is 6-10 so when 10 it would be 0.16291359999999996 uF so it would be tripled !!!!!!  here is list of dielectric i used http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/tables/diel.html#c1
0.055390623uF = 0.000000 055390623F

OK so my capacitor will create charge 1C=1F x 1V  so
0.000000055390623 x 50000 = 0.002769531115 C

so at 1 round per seconds it souled create 8 x 0.0027695 = 0,022156 C/s = A ??? that's a lot, is it right? so its 0.022156 x 50000 = 1107 W ??? well 8 sectors and full round so it will create 8 charges right?

well 1C = 1A x 1s so 1A=1C/1s

i don't know lets say its right so this only shows the charging cycle and what about discharging? cycle 2 so it souled be 16 x 0.0027695= 0,044312 C/s = A = 2215W ??
1200 rpm = 20 rps = 20 x 1107 =  22140W ?????
what you think ?

wojsciech
Title: Re: Stepping Down a Wimshurst
Post by: Steven Dufresne on April 22, 2010, 10:02:30 PM
so 8 sectors each have 460 A centimeter so total or my capacitor is 3680 square centimeters which is 0,368 square meter
...
so at 1 round per seconds it souled create 8 x 0.0027695 = 0,022156 C/s = A ??? that's a lot, is it right? so its 0.022156 x 50000 = 1107 W ??? well 8 sectors and full round so it will create 8 charges right?

You multiplied by 8 twice, once to get the area and then again to calculate current. So the last part quoted above should be 1 x 0.0027695 = 0.0027695 C/s = A, for a power of 0.0027695 x 50000 = 138 W. When you include the discharge cycle too that's 276 W.

I can't see any flaw in the logic. You get a lot by having such big area with such a small distance between plates i.e. a high capacitance. If you can build it then more power to ya (pun intended)  ;D

And of course you'll need at least 276 W for the motor and HV power supply to power it. I think it'll be the capacitive reactance that'll be your biggest loss: Xr = 1 / (2 x pi x frequency x C). So Xr = 1 / (2 x 3.14 x 1 x 0.000000055) = 2,893,726 ohms. That'll be the resistance your power supply will feel to charge the disk each cycle. Depending on your power supply it may have trouble maintaining 50000V during charging.

Hmmm. But if you make the inductive reactance of your coil and load also have the same value then you'll have done impedance matching and have resonance. Though they're in series. I know better for parallel coil and capacitor.
-Steve
http://rimstar.org   http://wsminfo.org
Title: Re: Stepping Down a Wimshurst
Post by: wojwrobel on April 23, 2010, 07:29:16 AM
hello

I have to disagree,

1 round per second - means full round of the disk , so our capacitor will form 8 times per round=second

and by meaning "that's a lot" i meant the power generation at full speed!

let say 1200 rpm = 20rps = 20 x 138 W = 2760W since there is no opposing magnetic field like in regular generators it dont need so much power for motor so let say we use 300W for driving and 160W for supplying HV and 300W for loses so we still have 2000W

and now imagine if you have many generators like this in series it takes 5mm each so in 1m you will have 200 units, a little power plant 1m by 1m that produces  400KW of power in just a "charge mode"

or 800KW in both modes that's a lot

and if I'm right that we A 8 capacitor at 1rps its even more!! eight times more!!

i don't think that anybody can do better!

wojsciech
Title: Re: Stepping Down a Wimshurst
Post by: gauschor on April 23, 2010, 02:23:25 PM
I don't want to be a partypooper, but your calculations in range of Kilowatts are simply unrealistic. What you will receive is in range of milliWatts at best, nothing more, because the impulse your pickup coil receives is too weak. I am not joking, and you will see it by yourself, once you've build your own working device...
Title: Re: Stepping Down a Wimshurst
Post by: Steven Dufresne on April 23, 2010, 02:55:07 PM
wojwrobel,
You say your capacitor will form 8 times per second but 8 times which capacitor? You're mutiplying 8 times an amount of charge that's based on a 0.368 square meter capacitor. But 0.368 includes all 8 capacitors.

gauschor,
I wouldn't doubt the calculations are missing all the negative aspects that'll make it output only milliwatts - though I tried to find some with capacitive reactance. Assuming he could charge up the sectors fully, the motor then has to rotate the sectors away from each other. Ever try to turn a charged Wimshurst machine with the collectors not collecting? It's as if the disks are emersed in thick syrup. The attractive forces between opposing sectors are strong, espectially these large sectors with 2mm spacing. In this case the positive sectors have no "collector" and the negative sectors have a coil with inductive reactance to work against. So I think you're right. Either the output won't be much or the output will be significant but the input will be even more.

But I say, go for it. Sounds like a fun thing to try and you'll learn a lot which can be used toward your next idea.
-Steve
http://rimstar.org   http://wsminfo.org
Title: Re: Stepping Down a Wimshurst
Post by: wojwrobel on April 23, 2010, 05:36:44 PM
hello

ok i made a picture to explain, but with 4 sectors, so every 1 round you form 4 capacitors that are total of 4 sectors

imagine that under white paper is positive potential thats charge cycle and between white papers is discharge.
Title: Re: Stepping Down a Wimshurst
Post by: wojwrobel on April 23, 2010, 07:33:28 PM
one more thing if we want to increase capacity we can change dielectric material to let say mica its 5,4 from plexi 3,4 gain of 60% of capacity!!!
Title: Re: Stepping Down a Wimshurst
Post by: wojwrobel on April 24, 2010, 09:47:46 AM
hello

ok i recalculated everting and i made a mistake

2mm is not 0.0002 but 0.002 so then our C=0.01221852 uf 0.000000 01221852 F

so its 0.000610926 C
at 1rps =0.000610926 x 8= 0.004887408 A = 244W
at 1200rpm=20rps= 4880W cycle 1
                           
but this mistake makes me thinking if we can use some special film as isolator that have good dielectric constant and strenght it will make big difference in output!!!
wojsciech
Title: Re: Stepping Down a Wimshurst
Post by: gauschor on April 24, 2010, 02:29:13 PM
@Steven: True, I forgot that with the "thick syrup" maybe causing a stronger influencing and therefore probably causing a stronger induction effect in the pickup coil. This definitely needs a second look I guess.
@wojwrobel: hmm... I am eager to know how it will work out, since I can see you are actually building the device. It is still quite possible I have overseen something in my own experiments, also my construction was not the same as yours. It motivates to start experimenting again if one sees that other lay their hands upon it as well  :)

On a sidenote: beware... the most difficult thing I experienced during constructing devices like that is getting the discs not to wobble  :-\
Title: Re: Stepping Down a Wimshurst
Post by: Steven Dufresne on April 24, 2010, 02:34:54 PM
Hi wojwrobel,
What, you're not satisfied with 4880W or even 244W?  ;)
I'd suggest you try a small version first with what you have readily available, unless you're already experienced at this making these sorts of things.
-Steve
http://rimstar.org   http://wsminfo.org
Title: Re: Stepping Down a Wimshurst
Post by: Steven Dufresne on April 24, 2010, 02:44:33 PM
@Steven: True, I forgot that with the "thick syrup" maybe causing a stronger influencing and therefore probably causing a stronger induction effect in the pickup coil. This definitely needs a second look I guess.

Actually, what I was trying to get at was that his motor is probably going to do a heck of a lot of work just to turn the disks. But I'm not certain of that. I'm extrapolating from what happens with my Wimshurst machine, which is a bit of a different beast.

On a sidenote: beware... the most difficult thing I experienced during constructing devices like that is getting the discs not to wobble  :-\

Agreed - groan. Another reason for starting small if you're not experienced at making these things. 1 meter disks can be expensive if you end up having to make a few versions before you get it right.
-Steve
http://rimstar.org   http://wsminfo.org
Title: Re: Stepping Down a Wimshurst
Post by: mscoffman on April 24, 2010, 08:46:33 PM
@All

Somebody mentioned the number of microamps involved in a Wimshurst
spark...but this current would be at least at 10KVdc+ so that is a lot of
zero decimal points coming from the voltage side of the P=I*E equation.

At the time I calculated Watts to tens of Watts available.   

Don't forget, you can always add an "antenna" wire to your influence
machine device to cause it to affect more of its environment. This
is why I don't think an electrostatic machine like this obeys the
simple conservation of energy laws and is where the plexiglas Bedini
ten-coiler machines gets their extra battery charging ability.

Also back when they were using Wimshurst machines as a power
supply for x-ray tubes they would spin a number of disks on the
same shaft. Capacitive coupling will cut down on the available power
over DC brushes but has some benefits as well.

Don't forget, the target goal for a free energy generator is
~1.5KWatts continuous~ for household use - not megawatts.

---

Book: Modern High-Speed Influence Machines
circa 1922

http://ebook.lib.hku.hk/CADAL/B31428137/

:S:MarkSCoffman
Title: Re: Stepping Down a Wimshurst
Post by: wojwrobel on April 24, 2010, 10:07:50 PM
hello

all this idea gets me to thinking

if we can charge by induction witout loss of our sorce so why dont we make something stationary that will work at the same princip...

maybe like this?
Title: Re: Stepping Down a Wimshurst
Post by: gauschor on April 25, 2010, 12:43:58 AM
Very interesting thought; The only problem I can see here is, how both negative & positive potentials are transferred alternatingly and in short time onto the first big capacitorplate.

In detail: at first you fill up the big capacitorplate on the left with a high negative potential e.g. with the help of a wimshurst device. If the capacitor area is big, it takes 1-3 seconds(!) to get it fully loaded. Then after you have loaded it, you need to reverse the potential quickly into a positive one. How could one do that?
Title: Re: Stepping Down a Wimshurst
Post by: wojwrobel on April 25, 2010, 09:49:51 AM
hello

well i dont think that its gonna take 1-3sek, 1m x1m 2mm apart mica insulator k=7.5 is just 0.0332024 uf and with potential 50kv its gonna charge in ms it is not rc circut that charging time would depend from R.

and how to make sinus 50 kv?
i have think about that but i think mechanical setup plus wimshurt?
wojsciech
Title: Re: Stepping Down a Wimshurst
Post by: gauschor on April 25, 2010, 12:35:41 PM
It definitely takes more than a few milliseconds to charge it up. I would say at least a half or 1 second for a spark of 50kV+ which is definitely too slow for a power generation device; consider that common wimshurst devices have 2 big capacitors on them (leyden jars), which are nothing else than 2 metal plates for each capacitor. However these leyden jars need some turns of the wimshurst discs to get fully loaded. Only then they have enough different potential to create a strong lightning of 50kV+. If you remove the capacitors completely you can get a lightning arc, which however is only an estimated 2-6kV (from my experience). So in any case the charging procedure is too slow.

And then the problem of the alternation between positive/negative potential is still not solved yet. You could achieve that by shortcutting both negative & positive potentials and then build up only one potential afterwards. But this sounds very inconvenient and would take too much time either.

That said, I am still sure there must be a way to achieve that. Maybe somehow like in the image beloiw although I am afraid that I am missing some points here, or make some logical errors. At least I wouldn't know how to connect the wires to the disc segments if the discs are rotating... :/

Title: Re: Stepping Down a Wimshurst
Post by: wojwrobel on April 25, 2010, 01:05:57 PM
hello
its get me thinking why not to try to place coil of wire and give it this alternating electric field? maybe its a new way of making electricity? push pull electrons just like magnets does!!! but witout magnetic field!!!

and insted of copper wire we sould use insulated steel wire because i read i many places that steel coil of wire dont create back emf!!! but ohter problem is that is atracted to magnet ....  anyway even if back emf is there what it will affect ? aluminium thin sectors?

i have to give it a try !!!
wojsciech
Title: Re: Stepping Down a Wimshurst
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on May 13, 2010, 01:03:07 AM
Hi folks, hi foggynotion, i guess i overlooked somehow the fact you said you were the famous Johnny Cool Pants. What have you been up to, did you see i started a thread in memory of some of your ideas from that other website. Some of those ideas i think have some real practical value, have you built that flash steam setup ever or any of the other ideas. Thanks
peace love light
Title: Re: Stepping Down a Wimshurst
Post by: gauschor on May 16, 2010, 07:51:05 PM
Again I tried different experiments e.g.: trying to

- connect Wimshurst to Joulethief circuits
- combine it with some possible sheets from Kapanadze circuits
- attach and pulse a magnet in the circuit in hope it would magically amplify the amperage
- use a permanent magnet as core of the transformer coil hoping to amplify the induction with pulsed DC
- check out if one could get enough power via pickup coil by induction only suggested by wojwrobel
- do another test by using "Evert electrostatic generator" with 3 copper plates and 1 rotor
- accomplish electrostatic push- and pull principle, electrostatic motor (works, but quite weak)
- and lastly trying electrolysis with it (with/without transformer/rectifier etc.)

... needless to say... most of them delivering a result which is not worth to mention.

It is still possible to light an LED to 1/3 or half brightness with a basic step down transformer / aircoils, but what's it for use anyways. It has way too less amperage to power anything else. That's it... I'm empty now...
Title: Re: Stepping Down a Wimshurst
Post by: mscoffman on January 13, 2014, 05:36:07 PM
Here is a fundamental method that is described as an electrostatic step down transformer.
This could perhaps have a number of uses, if it works correctly;

author is youtube user; Mr Teslonian
 
part #1 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k06S-01HBqQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k06S-01HBqQ)
part #2 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6ipm6r7h-Y (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g6ipm6r7h-Y)

:S:MarkSCoffman
Title: Re: Stepping Down a Wimshurst
Post by: NTesla on January 14, 2014, 12:35:36 AM
Here is an example:

http://youtu.be/E4P3Q_3M3rI
Title: Re: Stepping Down a Wimshurst
Post by: gauschor on January 14, 2014, 07:39:22 PM
Thanks for the links, just watched it. What I missed in MrTeslonians setup is a bulb or LED check, but any experiments in these matters are appreciated :)

Unfortunately the voltmeter displays wrong results, because of the frequency limit of 50Hz (video comments already noticed).
The second issue is that while a transformation process happens it can only be minimal. You can only transform pulsing current, but not 2 static charges. In this setup you don't even see a spark gap. The pulse effect is there, but the way it is created comes as follows:
It is created at the point where the sensors collect the charge from Wimshurst segments. Hundreds of minimal charges/discharges take place just before or whenever the sensor approached the next rotating segment (you'll hear it crackling softly). These are the impulses he receives. Too weak.

The second video from NTesla is also interesting, as I had similar setups. The Wimshurst machine must be very efficient (looking at how small it is and how slow it is rotated) - and yet it produces a strong LED lightning frequently. A very good device to build upon for further experiments.

Back to the first videos: he shows a thick bronze coil in the pipe. I believe that someone of the Methernitha group showed a visitor also a thick bronze coil (with similar few windings) which was supposed to be in the "magic pots". There may be some importance to it. But I doubt a thicker wire provides more power just out of nothing. What a thicker wire does is: it can collect more charge. Hah, that brings me to the next...


Abstract theorisation:
Let's assume the thick wire coil has an initial charge of 10.
Let's assume each Wimshurst segment accumulates more and more charge until a charge of 1000 is reached.

Now we know that electrostatic charge is on the surface of the wire, but not within the wire. Compare it with an "ocean" floating on top of the thick wire. First it is a small pool of water. We add some drops of water and it grows to a sea. We add some more and it grows to an ocean. The ocean cannot escape. The ocean only needs very few "water drops" to sustain itself. The problem is, the ocean does nothing. it just sits there. No motion no power. What we need to do is to make the ocean wobble. We must create Tsunami waves.

(While writing this I suddenly understand why some people called the Testatika a "Gezeiten-Maschine" or "Tides / Tidal wave machine").
Title: Re: Stepping Down a Wimshurst
Post by: gauschor on January 15, 2014, 12:51:31 PM
Oh well, after thinking a night about it I came to the conclusion it's not easy to create a electrostatic "Tsunami". I mean how?

Only a magnetically quenched spark gap could potentially produce something like a quench... a "shallow coast-line" where the waves pile up. But the problem is the spark gap. Once it will discharge, it's over. The electrostatic ocean is empty. And a magnet approaching a standing electrostatic ocean has no effect either.

Also if there is an electrostatic charge on the plate already the electrons move away from each other as far as they can. So basically there isn't even a "shallow coast line". The electrons are already on the coast.

The only thing one can do is to influence the electrons by other electrons of the same charge which moves both electrons away from each other: say you have a disc full of [-] charged segments, which are rotated by an equally [-] charged touchless sensor which is connected to a flyback transformer. So there you go with an electrostatic ocean which never discharges and hardly needs any charge to sustain itself. Furthermore each time an induction effect is produced. Maybe the Testatika used something like that. So they never used the electrostatic charge directly, only the influence of it. But I am quite certain that the induction effect is still too weak to produce usable voltage :(
Title: Re: Stepping Down a Wimshurst
Post by: PiCéd on January 15, 2014, 04:50:11 PM
P=0.5xCxU²
Title: Re: Stepping Down a Wimshurst
Post by: gauschor on January 15, 2014, 05:45:21 PM
P=0.5xCxU²

You got a point in there. So it could work if create a capacitance high enough.  Now the question is how do we get it high enough on a small segment area. I just read in the wiki:

Quote
Aktuelle (2009) Forschungen beschäftigen sich unter anderem mit neuen Oberflächenstrukturierungen der Elektroden. Beispielsweise lässt sich durch eine Nanostruktur in Form von Milliarden nebeneinander liegender kleiner Löcher in einer dünnen Aluminiumschicht, beschichtet mit Titan-Nitrid/Aluminiumoxid/Titan-Nitrid als kapazitiver Aufbau, die Leistungsdichte eines Nanokondensators, gemessen in W/kg, um mehr als das Zehnfache gegenüber Elektrolytkondensatoren vergrößern

Roughly translated: research in 2009 found out that a thin aluminum sheet with billions of nano-sized holes coated with Titan-Nitrid/Aluminumoxid/Titan-Nitrid as a capacitor layers have a power density more than 10 times larger compared to electrolyte capacitors.

This reminds me a lot about Paul Baumann claiming that the effect only works on perforated sheets. Obviously he found out about this 30 years before our "high-end" research.