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Author Topic: Cooling effects in Steorn eOrbo  (Read 29172 times)

Offline PaulLowrance

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Re: Tech discussion how eOrbo works
« Reply #30 on: December 27, 2009, 02:02:24 AM »
You are seeing things relative to other things, you have to look at the whole picture. Yes the permeability changes but it doesn't change uniformly throughout the toroid in the ON state. If the field of the coil produces 1 tesla inside the core then after adding the magnet then it will have one side at about 1.5 Tesla field while the other side becomes 0.5 Tesla. This is what the simulation shows. So part of the coil wants to induce a forward EMF since it sees a field decrease while the other part of the coil wants to induce backwards EMF since it sees a field increase. Both of these actions cancel out. discovery.

That would be true for a perfectly linear magnetic core with infinite saturation, but I was using realistic iron in my FEMM sims.  :)

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Re: Tech discussion how eOrbo works
« Reply #30 on: December 27, 2009, 02:02:24 AM »

Offline k4zep

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Re: Tech discussion how eOrbo works
« Reply #31 on: December 27, 2009, 02:08:35 AM »
The attached image is where the magnets are located,

Hi Paul,

With the magnets as shown N/S then S/N hitting coil, you would get that scope shot unless the magnets were perfectly match and aligned which they obviously are not as shown in scope.  To repeat, if alignment and field strength on both sides were perfectly matched you would not get that deviation.  IF you use just a N or S on both sides of the coil, you will get nothing if alignment is perfect.  The double hump in the middle is a excellent indication of mismatching in alignment/field.   Seen that many times before in "eat crow" days...... 

But why is it cooling.  DON't change that power supply bias setting!!!!!  !!!!!   !!!!!


Respectfully,
Ben


Offline PaulLowrance

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Re: Tech discussion how eOrbo works
« Reply #32 on: December 27, 2009, 02:12:46 AM »
Hi Paul,
Just read the whole thread up to here.  Now that the he said, I said, etc. is done lets get down to the good stuff. 

In you magnetic cooling experiment, exactly what is your schematic.  Is the coil/resistor/ supply in a simple loop and you are monitoring the bidirectional voltage shift from either magnetic induced inductance change or pure generator action, hence emf voltage shift or AC component as seen across that resistor.  That, I assume is what you have been saying about the motor having back EMF when biased on by the coil. 

I realize that the core is essentially a 1 turn loop and by mechanically modulating the field in that core it would cause voltage induced in the coil hence reflected into/at the PS.  As the basic toroid/magnetic torque loop interface is demonstrated to be bi-directional as far as current flow is concerned, torque production is not changed/effected during 1 cycle (I'm that old).  The additive and subtractive currents would cancel out as far as torque is concerned and while there is an induced emf in the loop, it has a average of zero extra energy used from the Power supply (PS) due to its being an AC component (An AC modulated DC bias).  It would not tend to slow the motor down as in conventional circuits and would not increase power consumption from the supply long term and this is what we are looking for.  So my consensus is that we are both right and the effects are as desired......Vote overwhelming for Paul and Ben!

Also the youtube video description was update. There's no current going through the toroid coil, well, not unless you want to consider the pico or nano amps produced by the scope.  ;)

I still can't believe what I saw, even though it still needs to be redone a lot better. It was just 100% purely mechanical magnetic interactions. No coil current, well unless it was pulsing to whatever it was connected to. The DMM was off, the scope was on, but I'll have to check to see if the toroid coil was connected to the power supply. Usually I disconnect the power supply leads. So it's just 4 NdFeB magnets spinning over a toroid. The toroid has a lot of turns with fine wire, so there's probably a good amount of parallel capacitance, but that should make no measurable difference at these low frequencies.

See the drawings I posted in this thread. It shows how the magnets on one side are situated. Perhaps another drawing is in order so you can see how the magnets are situated on both sides. The other side is the same, except the magnetic polarities are the opposite is all.


If someone is logging into your account and mucking with contents, change the password? 

Respectfully
Ben

I did that a week or so ago. Still looks like someone or thing is logging into my account. If anyone gets any weird PM's from me, then maybe I did not send it! A month or so ago they used to get th eir kicks by disabling my notifications, so it seems they no longer care if I even know about this, as it's so obvious.

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Re: Tech discussion how eOrbo works
« Reply #32 on: December 27, 2009, 02:12:46 AM »
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Offline PaulLowrance

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Re: Tech discussion how eOrbo works
« Reply #33 on: December 27, 2009, 02:16:40 AM »
Hi Paul,

With the magnets as shown N/S then S/N hitting coil, you would get that scope shot unless the magnets were perfectly match and aligned which they obviously are not as shown in scope.  To repeat, if alignment and field strength on both sides were perfectly matched you would not get that deviation.  IF you use just a N or S on both sides of the coil, you will get nothing if alignment is perfect.  The double hump in the middle is a excellent indication of mismatching in alignment/field.   Seen that many times before in "eat crow" days...... 

That scope shot was actually taken before I hand adjusted the magnets. I was able to get the coil output down a lot more, but still not perfect, lol.  So in the video the magnets were better situated such that it had less interaction with the toroid coil.


But why is it cooling.  DON't change that power supply bias setting!!!!!  !!!!!   !!!!!

Respectfully,
Ben

lol, I won't change a thing, but there was no current in the toroid coil during that video footage. The dremel motor was rotating it, but weird thing is that a lot of time all of a sudden the dremel motor rpm would drop or increase by magnitudes. Very strange effect by itself.

I still don't know if the temperature dropped below ambient. That's what the IR gun showed, but this still needs lots of careful repeats to make sure.

Offline PaulLowrance

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Re: Tech discussion how eOrbo works
« Reply #34 on: December 27, 2009, 02:23:39 AM »
After checking just now, the toroid was connected to two power supplies (15V each, both in-series to get 30V, no common ground), but they were off and not connected to wall 120VAC socket.

Only last detail is what was the rpm of the dremel motor? Someone could probably find out from the video.

Anyhow, I have a headache over this, didn't eat lunch or dinner, lol. Tomorrow is another day.  ;D

Hope I don't have nightmares of freezing the death, lol. Anyhow, thanks everyone for the ears.

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Re: Tech discussion how eOrbo works
« Reply #34 on: December 27, 2009, 02:23:39 AM »
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Offline k4zep

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Re: Tech discussion how eOrbo works
« Reply #35 on: December 27, 2009, 04:03:01 AM »
That scope shot was actually taken before I hand adjusted the magnets. I was able to get the coil output down a lot more, but still not perfect, lol.  So in the video the magnets were better situated such that it had less interaction with the toroid coil.


lol, I won't change a thing, but there was no current in the toroid coil during that video footage. The dremel motor was rotating it, but weird thing is that a lot of time all of a sudden the dremel motor rpm would drop or increase by magnitudes. Very strange effect by itself.

I still don't know if the temperature dropped below ambient. That's what the IR gun showed, but this still needs lots of careful repeats to make sure.

Hi Paul,

Several things come to mind. 

Ol Dremels are actually DC motors with brushes, at low speeds, the will jump around a bit if the brushes are "Hoppin" in the guides or getting near the end of their life.  You might want to clean the brush area and replace the brushes.

The series, non powered circuit actually has some protection diodes in it.  Who knows what the impedance around the loop was.

Magnetic fields might have been changing bias in the IR meter analog section.....  I have had magnetic fields muck with electronics near them.

I hope this doesn't fall into the "unreproducible results category".....yes, I have been there too, especially with Bedini circuits.....

Get a good nights sleep, keep it cool, keep building and keep uploading to YouTube, good bad or ugly.  Sometimes for every step forward,
we go two steps backwards.......RPM sounded in the 2-3K rpm, at the low end range for the Dremel.

Hang in there,

Respectfully
Ben


Offline lumen

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Re: Tech discussion how eOrbo works
« Reply #36 on: December 27, 2009, 06:30:55 AM »
Paul,

Using two magnets on such a tiny diameter, it is possible to force the toroid to act as two separate sections and induce a voltage in each section and the same direction.
Something like if the toroid was cut in half and two spinning magnets were placed in the gaps where it was cut.

It's the same effect as two small coils placed around opposing quadrants and energized to force a circular field through the toroid.

Try using a single magnet and see if you can achieve the same results.

 

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Re: Tech discussion how eOrbo works
« Reply #36 on: December 27, 2009, 06:30:55 AM »
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Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Tech discussion how eOrbo works
« Reply #37 on: December 27, 2009, 12:20:42 PM »
Hi Paul,
you have had locked yourself the other thread either accidently
or somebody logged into your account.

Did you now change your password ?

I was wondering, why you still had connected the power supply in
off state to your coil ?
Output capacitors in the power supply then can still influence your output wave.
Better disconnect the coil from anything other than the scope.

Also what Ben says is correct, it could be, that your magnet on each side of the rotor
are misaligned.

Regards, Stefan.

Offline PaulLowrance

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Re: Tech discussion how eOrbo works
« Reply #38 on: December 27, 2009, 03:20:20 PM »
Well here's some interesting news. It turns out that I had a 0.1uF capacitor connected to the scope input. Far prior to this experiment my scope probe broke, so lately I've been using a connector with two clip leads. Anyhow, the dremel drill was putting out some noise so that's the reason for the .1uF capacitor.

The toroid say 1.03 HY. Since it has a lot of windings, it could be 1.03 henry. Not sure if that would be from center tap to an end or the entire coil. The resonance of 0.1uF & 1H is 500 Hz. So the spinning setup was not terribly far away from resonance if the toroid is close to 1H. Remember there are magnets on each side, so if the dremel was spinning at say 3600rpm (60Hz), then that's 120Hz.

Also the toroid is a tad over 100 ohms from either end to center tap. Not sure how much capacitance.

Later on I connect everything to see what the resonance is.

The resistance from the power supplies is 600 ohms, and when the DMM is in diode mode it shows 0.570V. The scope itself shows 1Mohm.

Furthermore, I just looked at the rest of the video (not shown on youtube because it's way too long).  Into the video I disconnected all of the wires to the toroid, and I swear the temperature immediately began increasing!  ;D Let me take a look at the video to see how high it went.

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Re: Tech discussion how eOrbo works
« Reply #38 on: December 27, 2009, 03:20:20 PM »
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Offline PaulLowrance

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Re: Tech discussion how eOrbo works
« Reply #39 on: December 27, 2009, 03:41:19 PM »
Okay, here are the readouts:

* Immediately after removing all of the clip leads to the toroid (took maybe 10 seconds) the temperature read 65.3F. It was 64.8F when all wires were connected. This is at 12:25 time mark (12 minutes & 25 seconds into video).

* At 12:52 (12 minutes & 52 minutes into video) it read 65.5F.

* At 13:14 it read 66.2F.
 
* At 13:47 it read 66.6F. I recall reading in the IR gun manual that it has a 0.2F resolution. Don't know the details, but I've seen it show 0.1 resolution. At this point I hear the rpms going down considerably, almost a stop.

* At 14:16 it read 66.9F.
 
(Removed IR-gun & began measuring temperature of the dremel, which showed up to 84F on the outer plastic casing.

 * At 16:17 it read 67.9F.
   
 
Also, it's important to note that the IR gun was not pointed at the magnets, but the toroid. If memory holds true, this IR gun as a 12degree angle. So all of these temperature measurements are scaled down because a lot of what the IR gun was seeing was the wooden desk. So it's probably a lot more than a 3 degree F drop. Hopefully today we can find out with the tiny 402 SMD thermistors.

Offline k4zep

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Re: Tech discussion how eOrbo works
« Reply #40 on: December 27, 2009, 04:58:34 PM »
Okay, here are the readouts:

* Immediately after removing all of the clip leads to the toroid (took maybe 10 seconds) the temperature read 65.3F. It was 64.8F when all wires were connected. This is at 12:25 time mark (12 minutes & 25 seconds into video).

* At 12:52 (12 minutes & 52 minutes into video) it read 65.5F.

* At 13:14 it read 66.2F.
 
* At 13:47 it read 66.6F. I recall reading in the IR gun manual that it has a 0.2F resolution. Don't know the details, but I've seen it show 0.1 resolution. At this point I hear the rpms going down considerably, almost a stop.

* At 14:16 it read 66.9F.
 
(Removed IR-gun & began measuring temperature of the dremel, which showed up to 84F on the outer plastic casing.

 * At 16:17 it read 67.9F.
   
 
Also, it's important to note that the IR gun was not pointed at the magnets, but the toroid. If memory holds true, this IR gun as a 12degree angle. So all of these temperature measurements are scaled down because a lot of what the IR gun was seeing was the wooden desk. So it's probably a lot more than a 3 degree F drop. Hopefully today we can find out with the tiny 402 SMD thermistors.

Good work Paul,

OK, tighten up your methodology a bit more, and a few more suggestions. 

Make a pick up coil and while watching waveform on scope, adjust Dremel for max. resonance in toroid.
See if you can add diode and cap from supply and scope without them (external cap and diode) and make the Toroid a compact unit.
See if it still works.  Diode, cap network in, Temp. goes down, network out, open circuit, temp goes up.  Small fan under toroid to speed up
heat gain back to background.

Keep at it.......Amazing ain't it!

Ben


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Re: Tech discussion how eOrbo works
« Reply #40 on: December 27, 2009, 04:58:34 PM »
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Offline PaulLowrance

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Re: Tech discussion how eOrbo works
« Reply #41 on: December 27, 2009, 05:31:46 PM »
Thanks Ben. Today's going to be an interesting day.

A few more updates on the wiring. The toroid is center tapped; i.e., two coils (100 ohms per coil). The scope (and also the 0.1uF capacitor) was connected to one side of the toroid coil, and the other toroid coil was connected to the dual power supply (no common ground) and the AM-240 DMM. The dual power supply was off and not connected to the 120VAC wall socket. The scope was on. As stated in a previous post, the dual power supply has about 600 ohms, and according to the AM-240 in diode mode it reads 0.570 volts.

Offline PaulLowrance

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Re: Tech discussion how eOrbo works
« Reply #42 on: December 27, 2009, 06:48:16 PM »
Wow, this is getting exciting!

This is some very important info. I repeated the experiment this morning, and *nothing*! The temperature never decreased, and in fact all it did was *increase* by a few degrees F.  That was extremely disappointing. So then I turned on the dual power supply, thus applying 30V across the 100 ohm toroid coil, 0.3 amps, for a ~ 5 seconds. The dremel motor was off when the dual power supplies were on. The toroid coil temperature (according to the IR gun) increased from ~ 68°F to over 73°F. Then dual power supply was turn off, and the dremel motor was turned on. As soon as the dremel motor was turned on the toroid core temperature began to decrease!! It went down to 65.9°F. During this period when the core temperature was cold, I removed the dual power supply connection, and the core temperature remained. Then the 0.1uF capacitor was removed, and the core temperature remained! It does not appear to be due to the 0.1uF capacitor or the being connected to the dual power supply. So I don't know why the toroid core temperature suddenly increased after removing all of the connectors during yesterdays experiment. The only difference was yesterday I removed all of the wires, while today I only removed one wire from the 0.1uF capacitor and one wire from the dual power supply.

Furthermore, after staring at it for what seemed like a long time, maybe 10 to 15 minutes, I turned off the dremel motor to see if the core temperature would increase. At this point the toroid core was 65.9°F, and it did not change immediately. According to the IR gun, it stayed at 65.9°F for maybe a minute before it clicked up past 67°F, and continued to increase. So this effect is not due to air circulation and such. Besides, there's no metal exposed to the IR gun, just tape. The toroid core temperature began to *slowly* increase to normal temperature in the mid 67's (~ 67.5°F).

So maybe the toroid core's magnetic state (domains) change (equalized?) over night, and needed to be "reset." This is very important because the temperature did not decrease at all until after the core was momentarily magnetized by the 30V/100ohm=0.3amps of current. In fact, the toroid core temperature increased by a few degrees F prior to magnetizing the toroid core.

And remember, the toroid core was only magnetized with the 0.3 amps for only ~ 5 seconds. It was not left on. The dremel motor was off while the core was magnetized. Maybe it was just a coincidence that after magnetizing the core that the effect came back. Maybe it was not the DC current, but maybe the heat.

 

Offline PaulLowrance

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Re: Tech discussion how eOrbo works
« Reply #43 on: December 27, 2009, 07:50:31 PM »
I just did another run, and was unable to get the temperature to drop regardless what was done. Tried magnetizing the toroid coil with the dual power supply numerous times, which resulted in nothing special.

Something strange is going on. Someone took an interesting video of Steorn guy (tachoman) where he basically said that he's puzzled why the eOrbo rpm's are varying so much. I can't even begin to hypothesize what's happening here. Is this related to the source that drives passive diodes & piezos. This is well documented in my diode & piezo research where the highly shielded passive component is easily disturbed. After it's disturbed it needs time to recover. Maybe the magnetic material is now recovery, lol. One can only guess right now, but I hate this kind of stuff because I've been doing it for ages with the diodes & then piezos!!! Argggg!

Lets hope Steorn's eOrbo stability issues is only the relays, but that doesn't make much sense to me. There's circuit board doesn't appear to have big power components, so it appears the current levels is nothing significant. Also, lets not forget that the Steorn guy, tachoman himself said on camera that he is puzzled about the wide variance in rpm. Maybe location makes a difference. Maybe location varies over time.

Anyhow, just prior to typing this post I replaced the IR gun with a contact temperature probe. A slab of thermal paste was placed on the toroid, and the tiny probe was placed on that. Note, this is not my highly sensitive 402 SMD thermistor temperature unit.

Offline k4zep

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Re: Tech discussion how eOrbo works
« Reply #44 on: December 27, 2009, 08:01:42 PM »
I just did another run, and was unable to get the temperature to drop regardless what was done. Tried magnetizing the toroid coil with the dual power supply numerous times, which resulted in nothing special.

Something strange is going on. Someone took an interesting video of Steorn guy (tachoman) where he basically said that he's puzzled why the eOrbo rpm's are varying so much. I can't even begin to hypothesize what's happening here. Is this related to the source that drives passive diodes & piezos. This is well documented in my diode & piezo research where the highly shielded passive component is easily disturbed. After it's disturbed it needs time to recover. Maybe the magnetic material is now recovery, lol. One can only guess right now, but I hate this kind of stuff because I've been doing it for ages with the diodes & then piezos!!! Argggg!

Lets hope Steorn's eOrbo stability issues is only the relays, but that doesn't make much sense to me. There's circuit board doesn't appear to have big power components, so it appears the current levels is nothing significant. Also, lets not forget that the Steorn guy, tachoman himself said on camera that he is puzzled about the wide variance in rpm. Maybe location makes a difference. Maybe location varies over time.

Anyhow, just prior to typing this post I replaced the IR gun with a contact temperature probe. A slab of thermal paste was placed on the toroid, and the tiny probe was placed on that. Note, this is not my highly sensitive 402 SMD thermistor temperature unit.

Paul, is that IR probe battery powered?  If so are the batteries new?????  I have "discovered" ou several times with DVM batteries going low in cheep DVM's and threw off calibration.  Threw them away and and only use FLUKE now.

Respectfully
Ben


 

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