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Author Topic: Cooling effects in Steorn eOrbo  (Read 29175 times)

Offline lumen

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Re: Tech discussion how eOrbo works
« Reply #15 on: December 26, 2009, 08:58:59 PM »
If the coil is biased then you'll see the induced voltage from the toroid core due to the spinning magnets.

I'm not saying the over all design is not cop>1 because there might be noticeable magnetic viscosity involved, but it's misleading to say there's no bemf. There's no back emf is there's no current in the coil, but who cares about that. What matters is if there's bemf if there's current in the coil.

I can see no way that any passing magnet can induce a magnetic flow direction in a toroid core.
The basic reason that magnet motors cannot operate is because, from one magnet to another or from a steel core to a magnet, the field lines appear as a circular ball approaching.
Because of this, any field from a magnet approaching a toroid core would always intersect at a point that would cause equal field lines traveling in each direction around the core.

Any field direction already in the core would only be strengthened in one direction and weakened in the other direction by equal amounts.
This condition would not change anything unless the direction that was strengthened exceeded the saturation curve of the core.

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Re: Tech discussion how eOrbo works
« Reply #15 on: December 26, 2009, 08:58:59 PM »

Offline broli

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Re: Tech discussion how eOrbo works
« Reply #16 on: December 26, 2009, 11:15:03 PM »
I agree with lumen and this is also what the sims show. Below I attached some sims I did a few days ago that show what lumen is talking about. It shows that the field is divided in both direction and thus the net circular flux should be about 0. The first two are when there no current in the coil.

The last two show the situation with current through the coil. How I use my logic on this one is simple. The core has an area with increased flux and and area with decreased flux density (yes I checked it by removing the magnet and measuring the field only caused by the coil VS the field caused by coil and magnet together).  You can see a toroid as many single windings in series, if you apply this reasoning you can see that the area where the flux increased the voltage will be forward while in the area where the flux is decreased the voltage will be backwards and thus cancel in total.

So in the 0 current case emf is canceled because flux lines enter from both directions about equally.

In the non 0 current case emf is canceled because there's a non uniform flux density through the coil.

That's not all. Let's assume that for some reason the flux didn't cancel completely, which I suspect since nothing is perfect, and there's a net circular flux. Meaning voltage is induced regardless of current flow or not. Even this induced EMF can be canceled by adding another coil somewhere hooked up in series in such a way that the combined EMF is forward in one coil and back in the other, meaning the net is 0 volt.

So PL I have so far no reason to believe that there's a voltage when current is allowed to flow. All my knowledge and logic so far says this is not the case. I hope your own experimentation will enlighten both of us on this.

But like I said earlier there's something mechanical which is being overlooked. If my simple math is correct the mechanical energy is indeed completely free. I have a simple thought experiment on this which if requested I may share.

Sorry for the long technical post. I don't like these myself as I'm more of a show guy than tell.

Offline PaulLowrance

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Re: Tech discussion how eOrbo works
« Reply #17 on: December 27, 2009, 12:52:20 AM »
No, you're missunderstanding what I'm telling you. The FEMM clearly shows the effective permeability changes when the magnet approaches and then leaves. If there's DC current in the coil while the perm changes, then the magnetic lines in the core change, which is seen as a voltage on the toroid.  :)

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Re: Tech discussion how eOrbo works
« Reply #17 on: December 27, 2009, 12:52:20 AM »
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Offline PaulLowrance

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Re: Tech discussion how eOrbo works
« Reply #18 on: December 27, 2009, 12:55:37 AM »

Anyhow, you guys won't believe this -->

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e47jMCRecMY

If true, then this is scary stuff!!! Yee haw  :)

Offline PaulLowrance

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Re: Tech discussion how eOrbo works
« Reply #19 on: December 27, 2009, 01:07:07 AM »

 Besides the rapid drop in temperature (even below ambient, or so it appears-- still need to confirm that) is that rpm will all of a sudden drastically change. I've used this dremel a lot, and it does not change rpm by itself. That is such a strange effect, and I have no idea what could do that. Hey, Sean mentioned something about dark energy. Maybe that's it?  :)
 
 The rpm can just all of a sudden for no reason I'm aware of will decrease or increase by several magnitudes. Very cool.

 
 

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Re: Tech discussion how eOrbo works
« Reply #19 on: December 27, 2009, 01:07:07 AM »
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Offline PaulLowrance

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Re: Tech discussion how eOrbo works
« Reply #20 on: December 27, 2009, 01:08:06 AM »
Here's some photos.

Offline PaulLowrance

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Re: Tech discussion how eOrbo works
« Reply #21 on: December 27, 2009, 01:15:24 AM »
Here's the size,

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Re: Tech discussion how eOrbo works
« Reply #21 on: December 27, 2009, 01:15:24 AM »
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Offline PaulLowrance

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Re: Tech discussion how eOrbo works
« Reply #22 on: December 27, 2009, 01:24:42 AM »
The attached image is where the magnets are located,

Offline petersone

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Re: Tech discussion how eOrbo works
« Reply #23 on: December 27, 2009, 01:35:24 AM »
Hi Paul and all
Thanks for putting the work in and showing results,everybody is getting excited,including me,I hope it's not misplaced!!
A couple of questions,I think you said nothing is connected to the coil,so why is there a scope shot,and if connected to the scope,why is there a trace,as there is no cemf,or so they say.
Keep going,all good stuff!!
peter

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Re: Tech discussion how eOrbo works
« Reply #23 on: December 27, 2009, 01:35:24 AM »
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Offline broli

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Re: Tech discussion how eOrbo works
« Reply #24 on: December 27, 2009, 01:38:13 AM »
No, you're missunderstanding what I'm telling you. The FEMM clearly shows the effective permeability changes when the magnet approaches and then leaves. If there's DC current in the coil while the perm changes, then the magnetic lines in the core change, which is seen as a voltage on the toroid.  :)

You are seeing things relative to other things, you have to look at the whole picture. Yes the permeability changes but it doesn't change uniformly throughout the toroid in the ON state. If the field of the coil produces 1 tesla inside the core then after adding the magnet then it will have one side at about 1.5 Tesla field while the other side becomes 0.5 Tesla. This is what the simulation shows. So part of the coil wants to induce a forward EMF since it sees a field decrease while the other part of the coil wants to induce backwards EMF since it sees a field increase. Both of these actions cancel out.

As far as you temperature anomaly I have nothing of value to say on that but it's a very interesting discovery.

Offline PaulLowrance

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Re: Tech discussion how eOrbo works
« Reply #25 on: December 27, 2009, 01:45:20 AM »
Hi Paul and all
Thanks for putting the work in and showing results,everybody is getting excited,including me,I hope it's not misplaced!!
A couple of questions,I think you said nothing is connected to the coil,so why is there a scope shot,and if connected to the scope,why is there a trace,as there is no cemf,or so they say.
Keep going,all good stuff!!
peter

Hi,

I do not recall saying there's nothing connected to the toroid. Here are the youtube quotes -->

Quote
The toroid coil is not loaded and there's no current flowing through the coil.

Quote
The wires connected to the toroid are connect to a volt meter, the oscilloscope, and a power supply, all of which were off during this footage.

The scope is on, so I need to correct that in the youtube. The volt meter is off. The power supply is off, but I don't think the wires are even connected at the power supply end. So the toroid is not loaded at all.

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Re: Tech discussion how eOrbo works
« Reply #25 on: December 27, 2009, 01:45:20 AM »
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Offline PaulLowrance

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Re: Tech discussion how eOrbo works
« Reply #26 on: December 27, 2009, 01:50:41 AM »
My next experiment will be to allow the temperature of everything settle down, and then repeat the experiment.

Offline PaulLowrance

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Re: Tech discussion how eOrbo works
« Reply #27 on: December 27, 2009, 01:53:58 AM »
Why don't you guys who are replicating your version of the eOrbo also monitor temperature?  :)

Offline k4zep

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Re: Tech discussion how eOrbo works
« Reply #28 on: December 27, 2009, 01:57:19 AM »
If the coil is biased then you'll see the induced voltage from the toroid core due to the spinning magnets.

I'm not saying the over all design is not cop>1 because there might be noticeable magnetic viscosity involved, but it's misleading to say there's no bemf. There's no back emf is there's no current in the coil, but who cares about that. What matters is if there's bemf if there's current in the coil.
Hi Paul,
Just read the whole thread up to here.  Now that the he said, I said, etc. is done lets get down to the good stuff. 

In you magnetic cooling experiment, exactly what is your schematic.  Is the coil/resistor/ supply in a simple loop and you are monitoring the bidirectional voltage shift from either magnetic induced inductance change or pure generator action, hence emf voltage shift or AC component as seen across that resistor.  That, I assume is what you have been saying about the motor having back EMF when biased on by the coil. 

I realize that the core is essentially a 1 turn loop and by mechanically modulating the field in that core it would cause voltage induced in the coil hence reflected into/at the PS.  As the basic toroid/magnetic torque loop interface is demonstrated to be bi-directional as far as current flow is concerned, torque production is not changed/effected during 1 cycle (I'm that old).  The additive and subtractive currents would cancel out as far as torque is concerned and while there is an induced emf in the loop, it has a average of zero extra energy used from the Power supply (PS) due to its being an AC component (An AC modulated DC bias).  It would not tend to slow the motor down as in conventional circuits and would not increase power consumption from the supply long term and this is what we are looking for.  So my consensus is that we are both right and the effects are as desired......Vote overwhelming for Paul and Ben!

If someone is logging into your account and mucking with contents, change the password? 

Respectfully
Ben


Offline k4zep

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Re: Tech discussion how eOrbo works
« Reply #29 on: December 27, 2009, 01:57:54 AM »
Won't don't you guys who are replicating your version of the eOrbo also monitor temperature?  :)

A very good idea!!!

Ben

 

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