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Author Topic: Constant flux DC motor/generator.  (Read 21526 times)

Offline lumen

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Re: Constant flux DC motor/generator.
« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2009, 12:23:20 AM »
Your last design brings up the problem I have faced several times.
Most will not believe this true for some reason that prevents them from seeing it.

In the symmetrical density field like you have, applying a current to the loop pushes more lines of force to the other side of the loop and should cause rotation. Instead, nothing will move because you are only moving the field around the circular path.

There is nothing to contain the field from just rotating around the gap since the force lines bunched up on one side of the current carrying loop will just push on the next field line, then the next and they will just rotate around the gap until they once again come upon the current loop.

Magnetic field lines of force are not forced stationary in space, they simply move to fill any gap of less density. If you had two loops where one worked against the other, then the field would be retained from rotating and something would build force.

If what I said was true, then placing a current on one loop should produce an equal current in a second loop on the opposite side as the field is rotated around the gap by the first loop. Like a type of DC transformer!










 

 

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Re: Constant flux DC motor/generator.
« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2009, 12:23:20 AM »

Offline broli

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Re: Constant flux DC motor/generator.
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2009, 12:43:30 AM »
Lumen I think you are unnecessarily complicating things by using force fields. It's a simple fact that moving charge in a field creates force, this force has also a reaction force on the source of the field. In our care being the magnetic domains near the gap. You simply use this force to your advantage. So far I have only seen one design that takes advantage of this source:

Figure 2: http://www.andrijar.com/dcmachines/index.html

I'm open to any kind of feedback positive or negative. But your last explanation makes no sense to me in any way. You accept that there are forces acting on the wire but not on the magnetic part?

Offline lumen

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Re: Constant flux DC motor/generator.
« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2009, 01:18:43 AM »
Quote
It's a simple fact that moving charge in a field creates force

This is not always true! The above statement implies that the charge is moving AND cutting field lines.
It can be moving in a field but not cutting field lines and no force will be generated!
If the field is moving with the charge, no work is done.
If the conductor is moving with the field no charge is generated!

Your design is trying to operate in a homopolar field of constant density.
Think of the gap in your design as being filled with thousands of tiny strings stretching from one side to the other.
Every string is equally spaced because they all repel each other.
Now, when you put the current through the conductor, a circular field is generated around the conductor that pushes the strings that were coming down on the conductor to one side. This shifts all the others to try to maintain equal spacing again!


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Re: Constant flux DC motor/generator.
« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2009, 01:18:43 AM »
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Offline broli

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Re: Constant flux DC motor/generator.
« Reply #18 on: December 15, 2009, 01:24:57 AM »
This is not always true! The above statement implies that the charge is moving AND cutting field lines.
It can be moving in a field but not cutting field lines and no force will be generated!
If the field is moving with the charge, no work is done.
If the conductor is moving with the field no charge is generated!

Your design is trying to operate in a homopolar field of constant density.

Yes this is inspired by my homopolar research. But I still don't know why you don't agree. The charge is moving inside, thus cutting, a magnetic field. This will cause the forces and thus reaction forces. If you glue both sides there will be no NET torque but the forces are still present only canceling each other, but when you split it up both sides can rotate individually and thus both will rotate in opposite direction. Newtons third law holds and momentum conservation holds.

If the reaction forces where not present newtons third law would be violated and thus unidirectional forces arise and we can fly to the moon. But so far it has never been violated in these setups there's always a reaction force on the magnetic source.

Offline lumen

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Re: Constant flux DC motor/generator.
« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2009, 01:45:16 AM »
The moving charge is shifting the field and would normally cause force if the charge caused a change in field density as is true of all electric motors.
In this case the field density cannot change so no force can be generated. This is like the homopolar motor, except the homopolar motor has an external circuit to contain or trap the field between and cause a change in field density. This is what pushes the homopolar motor.

Your design does not have the external circuit to trap the field so the charge just shifts the field and no work is done.
It is an interesting design though. I think I might build something like this just to test the DC transformer concept and show the field shift once and for all.

« Last Edit: December 15, 2009, 03:43:35 AM by lumen »

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Re: Constant flux DC motor/generator.
« Reply #19 on: December 15, 2009, 01:45:16 AM »
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Offline jadaro2600

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Re: Constant flux DC motor/generator.
« Reply #20 on: December 15, 2009, 02:40:49 AM »

 Yes and? Have you forgotten newtons third law. Action equals -Reaction. The conductor, which remains stationary, is acted upon by forces of the magnetic material. The magnetic material are acted upon by the reaction force of this. You perform some simple rules to get the forces and reason will tell you that the left part will mainly be affected by the left conductor side crossing the flux and the right part by the right conductor side. Hence the rotation of both sides albeit in opposite direction. If you don't get this logic then I can't help you.
 
There is nothing to figure out except for experimental data, I annoted everything clearly. The parts you think that should be levitating in the first design are either stationary in motor mode or glued to the rest in generator mode. My designs are meant to inspire and explain the concept in a very general way, not present an autocad and CNC ready model.
@ Broli
Sorry, It is not my intention to rain on anybody's parade. I just tend to think in terms of practicality.  I fully appreciate your thoughts and solutions for the puzzle at hand.
I can see how the posted design could work as a motor.  But why not a generator?
Do you believe that as a motor it would not have BEMF because of a uniform field?

Lee

Both of you make interesting points:  The similarity is this; With regard to the faraday disk model, If you rotate the magnet, no current is produced in the disk, if you rotate the disk, a current is produced.

However, if the magnet is rotated, a current is produced in the magnet.  Has anyone tested the strength of the magnetic field while the magnet is rotated relative to that when it is not?

In Broli's model, he suggests that it will have no generator action, but motor action, according to the posit, I posit a similarly, in that the ideal motor would not be an ideal generator.

These devices are not ideal, and for what it's worth, I might mention Betacells, a thermonuclear junctions to boot - most of which produce high voltage and low current, our counterpart here is the disk which produces high current and low voltage. 

Interesting, no?

If what Broli is suggesting is correct, then there is a field model which will create motion when a current passes through it, but when it is in motion, no current is generated.  There must therefore be some contradictory device which performs oppositely...

When in motion, current is generated, but when current passes through it no motion is generated.  This would indeed by a violation of some law somewhere.

Offline gravityblock

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Re: Constant flux DC motor/generator.
« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2009, 11:26:29 AM »
Your design does not have the external circuit to trap the field so the charge just shifts the field and no work is done.
It is an interesting design though.

Below is a video of a wire with current running through an external magnetic field.  The wire gets as far as it can from the external magnetic field.  According to your above statement, the charge would just shift the field of the magnet and there would be no work done on the wire or the magnet.  As you can see in the below video, your statement can not be correct and there is work being done.  In boli's example, the wire is held stationary which will torque the magnet pieces and cause it to rotate.  Since the wire is cutting through the field twice, the magnet piece on the other side will rotate in the opposite direction.  The magnet pieces will counter rotate to each other with no opposition.

Jumping Wire:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kk2c3m9eVK8

GB

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Re: Constant flux DC motor/generator.
« Reply #21 on: December 15, 2009, 11:26:29 AM »
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Offline lumen

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Re: Constant flux DC motor/generator.
« Reply #22 on: December 15, 2009, 06:27:33 PM »
Nice video.
The problem is, this is not the same case.
The wire does shift the force lines to the other side of the wire, but they have no where to go so they build force and lift the wire.
You cannot just shift the field lines out and away from the magnets!

In a circular case however, the field lines can easily shift all the way around the circle and fill the gap left from the shifting field.
That's why no force will be generated.


Offline gravityblock

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Re: Constant flux DC motor/generator.
« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2009, 06:49:39 PM »
The wire does shift the force lines to the other side of the wire, but they have no where to go so they build force and lift the wire.
You cannot just shift the field lines out and away from the magnets!

In a circular case however, the field lines can easily shift all the way around the circle and fill the gap left from the shifting field.
That's why no force will be generated.

The purpose of the video is not show weather the field lines shift out and away from the magnets or not.  It is showing how a magnetic field can torque a current carrying wire that is able to move.  Likewise, a fixed current carrying wire will have a torque on a magnet that is not fixed.  If both the wire and the magnet are glued to each other, then the forces are canceled.

If the left and right side of broli's last design where attached to each other, then the forces would cancel and it's not due to the field shifting all the way around the circle, but is due to newton's third law.  This is the reason for the left and right side not to be attached to each other so the forces are not canceled.

This concept is not hard to grasp in my opinion.  Testing will show if this concept is correct or not.  Broli's design is using newton's third law.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2009, 07:23:36 PM by gravityblock »

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Re: Constant flux DC motor/generator.
« Reply #23 on: December 15, 2009, 06:49:39 PM »
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Offline gravityblock

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Re: Constant flux DC motor/generator.
« Reply #24 on: December 15, 2009, 07:06:32 PM »
Lumen,

Here's another video for you to think about using the Law of LaPlace that supports Broli's concept, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvScSTbly1c

The magnetic field is mostly confined between the poles (legs) of the horseshoe magnet and the ferromagnetic material in Broli's design is confining the magnetic field in a similar way allowing the forces to be in a circular rotation instead of just a linear force.  You can't have the conductor on a rail to pass through the horseshoe magnet to continue in a circular path, but in broli's design it is possible and is using the same concept as the linear device with the horseshoe magnet.

Edit:  Here's another LaPlace rail that can be easily looped into a circle without having to pass through the magnet, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-kQans2rww

GB
« Last Edit: December 15, 2009, 08:04:01 PM by gravityblock »

Offline lumen

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Re: Constant flux DC motor/generator.
« Reply #25 on: December 16, 2009, 12:43:33 AM »
Nice videos also, but still both of these have already confined fields.
Think of the first with the horseshoe magnet, along the direction of travel, the field has a start and end. These are the confining boundaries.
When current is moving through the conductor, more of the force lines are moved to one side of the conductor. This is what causes the force to be exerted on the conductor.

In Broli's circular path, there is no start or end, so the field is not confined.
When current pases through Broli"s conductor, it will cause a void on one side and a compression on the other side which should make it move. Instead it is much easier for all the lines to just shift around the circle to fill the void.

I wish it were not true because it would solve many problems, but that is exactly what will happen.
This is the entire mystery of the homopolar motor and generator, that seems to baffle everyone.


 

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Re: Constant flux DC motor/generator.
« Reply #25 on: December 16, 2009, 12:43:33 AM »
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Offline broli

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Re: Constant flux DC motor/generator.
« Reply #26 on: December 16, 2009, 01:55:47 AM »

This is the entire mystery of the homopolar motor and generator, that seems to baffle everyone.

Everyone including you it seems. Here's a good place that will re-adjust your knowledge

http://www.andrijar.com/physics.htm

Also where are these numerous experiments you have apperently performed. Somewhere up in a cloud maybe? Atleast post your failures and succes so we can all learn and talk about it, that's the point of this forum.

Sorry if I sound rude but your compression and decompression theory sounds like complete baloney to me. I look at the source of the magnetic field being the material and its interaction with moving charge while you are hooked to the imaginary field lines physics book draw to present a magnet and its behavior. From my standpoint a homopolar motor is as clear as a sunny sky. Just analyze the source and the moving charge and you can get all the forces you need. You will always find that the biggest force interaction will be at the places where the charge and magnet source are closest to each other. This follows from the 1/r^x rule.

Offline lumen

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Re: Constant flux DC motor/generator.
« Reply #27 on: December 16, 2009, 02:51:55 AM »
Your knowledge says a moving charge in a magnetic field causes a force.

My knowledge says a moving charge generates a magnetic field that can act upon another field and may generate a force if some conditions are met.
I don't know how you can just say it must work when you do not first examine exactly how it will work. You cannot use a standard law and expect it to work in anything but the standard cases.

Why do you think everybody building a magnet motor sees a working principal, but once they close the circular loop, it no longer works?

It's because field will shift around a circle once the ends are gone to contain the field.
I understand what you are saying, it is complicated and you will not be convinced unless you test this yourself.
This is not a common situation, the problem I am describing ONLY exists on a circular homopolar device where the field is of constant density and direction along the path of the conductor.

The spinning magnet, the spinning disk, the spinning conductor, it all relates to the same thing!

I have done many experiments, the one I am doing now is forcing a conductive liquid through a strong magnetic field and testing for a voltage. I must say this is puzzling. NO detectable voltage!

But there should be, so what is wrong? The fluid is very conductive with magnesium sulfate and will electrolyze if a current is applied. Still testing.....

 




 
 
« Last Edit: December 16, 2009, 12:37:05 PM by lumen »

Offline jadaro2600

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Re: Constant flux DC motor/generator.
« Reply #28 on: December 16, 2009, 05:29:51 AM »
There was more to this post, but it was removed, the remainder was a warning, it's now been 'clarified'....

I have done many experiments, the one I am doing now is forcing a conductive liquid through a strong magnetic field and testing for a voltage. I must say this is puzzling. NO detectable voltage!

@all,

It should be noted that both gallium and mercury are very poisonous.  In those experiments, it was found that eddy currents were more prevalent in the liquid conductors than in the rotating disk.  I remember reading one such setup where Mercury was used AS the rotating disk... and very little current or voltage was produced.  It was a vortex of sorts...

Gallium could be used similarly; it seems to have higher melting point.  I think it may be interesting to see the results of a disk of solidified gallium used as a Faraday disk.

----

...This thread, in general. isn't too much different from the hpg / lenz thread.  I'll transpose a thought from there...
The problem here is that, in order to take off the current, you have to create a path between the axis of rotation and the rim of the disk.  This cannot rotate with the disk, or no current is produced.  It is therefore logical, that it is the radial path which is where the current is being generated.

In such a radius, the rotational speed ( in surface feet per minute ) is least near the center and greatest near the periphery.  THIS is where the change is occurring; the path's inner atoms are spinning slower than the path of the outer atoms.

And yes, eddy currents play a part in this; but it is the relativity which creates the apparition of a changing magnetic flux.  Even though the field strength is the same, it is as if to say that there is one end of a wire moving faster than the other in an even field; therefore there is an affective difference experienced in the wire.

What would generate more current?  [ in an even magnetic field ] A wire of a given distance moving at a given speed, or the that same wire of a given distance moving at three times that speed?

It's really all about what the individual atoms are experiencing [ and thus ] contributing as a whole.

When a vortex is used, the notion of the speed of atomic translation is nearly inverted, ...with the speed on the inside moving faster than the outside relative to the axis of rotation.

::edited for content relevance...

A continuous current motor, I believe a possibility; I have been working on one myself, but the contacts are shoddy, and any results I've come up with have most likely been the result of periodic disconnecting from the contact, or some other phenomenon associated with wobble.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2009, 02:50:34 PM by jadaro2600 »

Offline gravityblock

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Re: Constant flux DC motor/generator.
« Reply #29 on: December 16, 2009, 07:33:27 AM »
@all,

It should be noted that both gallium and mercury are very poisonous.

I sure hope this was posted in the wrong thread by accident.  This is totally off-topic and a total distraction to this thread.  I sent you a PM about this.

GB

 

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