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Author Topic: N-machine theory tested  (Read 13623 times)

Offline PaulLowrance

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N-machine theory tested
« on: December 12, 2009, 12:26:31 AM »
Hi,

Long ago when the late Bruce DePalma lived in Santa Barbara, CA, I've visited Bruce numerous times. His N-machines are very impressive looking. Bruce said the reason the N-machine worked was because the magnet was bonded to the disc, and therefore if DC current flows through the disc, there are two opposing rotational forces, one on the disc, and the opposite on the magnet. So if you rotate the N-machine, place a load on the disc, thus producing current, there should be no net opposing angular force on the N-machine.

That's fine, but I just tested that theory. I shorted a 30+ amp DC supply across a NdFeB disc magnet, and it rotated! My magnet is not on an axis, as it was on the carpet, but it still rotated in place.

Maybe someone who has a strong magnet on an axis could verify this as well.

Paul

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N-machine theory tested
« on: December 12, 2009, 12:26:31 AM »

Offline jadaro2600

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Re: N-machine theory tested
« Reply #1 on: December 12, 2009, 12:32:03 AM »
I would like the results to this test as well.

I hear numerous things about the unusual fields formed by the magnets.. something about their field strength near the periphery vs that of the inside.

Offline broli

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Re: N-machine theory tested
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2009, 12:37:54 AM »
Hi,

Long ago when the late Bruce DePalma lived in Santa Barbara, CA, I've visited Bruce numerous times. His N-machines are very impressive looking. Bruce said the reason the N-machine worked was because the magnet was bonded to the disc, and therefore if DC current flows through the disc, there are two opposing rotational forces, one on the disc, and the opposite on the magnet. So if you rotate the N-machine, place a load on the disc, thus producing current, there should be no net opposing angular force on the N-machine.

That's fine, but I just tested that theory. I shorted a 30+ amp DC supply across a NdFeB disc magnet, and it rotated! My magnet is not on an axis, as it was on the carpet, but it still rotated in place.

Maybe someone who has a strong magnet on an axis could verify this as well.

Paul

This is homopolar 101. The reason why it rotates is because both the disc (the coat of your neodymium mag) and the outside circuit (what you are brushing it against) want to torque the magnet. But since the magnet is attached to the coating this torque will vanish and all that remains is the torque due to the outside circuit, this will cause rotation. Unfortunately while rotating the coat will start generating back emf due to its motion and the presence of the magnetic field.

The interesting part which I have seen one person experiment with so far is that you can manipulate the flux of a magnet. Magnetic flux confined due to a ferromagnetic material is a very strange phenomena. You can guide it and only concentrate it on a portion of a circuit and use classic laws like the Lorentz force law to deduce force. Below you see an old concept of mine that does this. This concept though doesn't solve the back emf problem, but we know that any force has a reaction force, which in this case acts on the magnetic setup. This can cause it to rotate, so one can leave the circuit stationary and allow the setup to rotate without any bemfs where the only speed limit is component dependent.

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Re: N-machine theory tested
« Reply #2 on: December 12, 2009, 12:37:54 AM »
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Offline PaulLowrance

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Re: N-machine theory tested
« Reply #3 on: December 12, 2009, 01:18:21 AM »
I hear you broli. I'm only saying that this experiment goes against what Bruce told me. All these years I never even thought to question him.  :'(

It would be great if someone could do this without the magnet rotating, but just make sure the friction is low enough.

Offline PaulLowrance

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Re: N-machine theory tested
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2009, 01:21:27 AM »
This photo was grabbed online, but it looks just like my magnet. So I placed two thin stiff wires on the magnet, one on the outer edge, and one on the center of the disc. It seemed to work best on carpet. Perhaps less friction.

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Re: N-machine theory tested
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2009, 01:21:27 AM »
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Offline Craigy

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Re: N-machine theory tested
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2009, 02:37:46 AM »
I have played with homopolars, they really are cool and mystifying. No back emf at all, But their greatest downfall is the contacts with rim of the disc, hence teslas novel method of having a chain drive between 2 discs, the chain or conductive belt having a larger area in contact with the edge of each to reduce the sparking. But although no emf , the pickup methods are so full of friction that ou is unlikely.

But great non the less, here is a small vid of a homopolar mounted in the chuck of my lathe. everything rotates together, 2 micowave magnets with a Ali disk..the faraday paradox

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75p5JwlXwlo

Offline PaulLowrance

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Re: N-machine theory tested
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2009, 02:50:32 AM »
That video brings back memories. DePalma also showed me a demo of shorting the N-machine. I don't know if it proves anything though. You can also short a conventional faraday generator like that and it doesn't seem to slow down much that you can notice. The problem is that it's extremely difficult to get low resistance. Contact resistance can easily be 10 to 30 mOhm on stationary contact, and hundreds of milli ohms on a moving contact like that. Say 50mV output & 100mOhm = 0.025 watts.

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Re: N-machine theory tested
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2009, 02:50:32 AM »
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Offline broli

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Re: N-machine theory tested
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2009, 03:14:57 AM »
@Craigy your results are surprising. Would you mind performing some extra experiments on that setup. Mainly increasing the radius of the current aluminum disc by atleast 2-3 times or using smaller magnets. What you want to measure is the voltage while each time brushing on a bigger radius on the disc. Start out very close to the magnet and take not of voltage, then gradually increase the radius. This should make the voltage go to 0, IF then at a slightly bigger radius the voltage reverses polarity then you have made an important discovery which I'll be happy to explain why. Could you try this out please.

Offline gravityblock

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Re: N-machine theory tested
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2009, 10:25:12 AM »
Broli,

It appears Craigy's device is producing AC.  Look how the readings from the volt meter jumps up and down the way it does.  The polarity must be switching somewhere.  If it is, then it's due to particle drift which I go into more detail below.  All he needs to do is set his volt meter to AC, then test.  I wonder if those magnets are radial magnetized. 

I posted the below design in this thread a while back using a radial magnet, http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=5662.msg206989#msg206989

The blue disc is stationary and is not cutting the field, but the electrons flowing onto the blue disc from the red disc will cut the field of the south pole while moving towards the rim of the blue disc.  I call this particle drift (The electrons cut the field, but the conductor doesn't).  Brushes are needed to connect the inner and outer discs, but it allows you to spin a smaller mass, which requires less energy. So, the losses in the brushes and the energy saved in spinning a smaller mass probably negates each other.  I have the inner disc to rotate, while the outer disc is stationary to produce a DC current.....but AC could be produced with both of them rotating together such as Craigy's device, assuming his magnet's are radially magnetized. 

GB
« Last Edit: December 12, 2009, 10:48:48 AM by gravityblock »

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Re: N-machine theory tested
« Reply #8 on: December 12, 2009, 10:25:12 AM »
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Offline gravityblock

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Re: N-machine theory tested
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2009, 11:46:54 AM »
In Craigy's device, the disc is larger than the magnets and is not totally contained within the magnetic field of the magnets.  Wouldn't this cause eddy currents in the disc which could be responsible for the fluctuations in voltage?

GB

Offline jadaro2600

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Re: N-machine theory tested
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2009, 12:02:37 PM »
In Craigy's device, the disc is larger than the magnets and is not totally contained within the magnetic field of the magnets.  Wouldn't this cause eddy currents in the disc which could be responsible for the fluctuations in voltage?

GB

The lathe has current flowing through the rotor.  I think I had the misfortune of being electrocuted by one once.  I worked on them at one point, they're quite unpredictable.

AS a matter of fact, I think something should be done about that fact, they're quite dangerous at high speeds...  the rotor is acting like an HPG, in fact.

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Re: N-machine theory tested
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2009, 12:02:37 PM »
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Offline Craigy

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Re: N-machine theory tested
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2009, 12:04:23 PM »
No it only produces dc, the video was made in haste without thinking too much about the pickup points or brushes, i was just doing it to see the faraday parado

Half an hour after filming i fiddled some more by putting a wire to the tailstock of the lathe and could get almost 2 volts at 3000 rpm. I should have short circuited it , but didn´t. again used a bearing on the end of a probe for disc pickup.

I don´t have any more Ali , although the disc should really be copper but can´t get that here in the canaries.

Offline jadaro2600

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Re: N-machine theory tested
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2009, 12:10:17 PM »
No it only produces dc, the video was made in haste without thinking too much about the pickup points or brushes, i was just doing it to see the faraday parado

Half an hour after filming i fiddled some more by putting a wire to the tailstock of the lathe and could get almost 2 volts at 3000 rpm. I should have short circuited it , but didn´t. again used a bearing on the end of a probe for disc pickup.

I don´t have any more Ali , although the disc should really be copper but can´t get that here in the canaries.

You should check the rim of the rotor as well.

Offline broli

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Re: N-machine theory tested
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2009, 12:43:21 PM »
GB the point I'm trying to show is that there MIGHT be a polarity shift depending on where you measure. I attached an illustration of this below that should explain it. The question is if we keep on increasing the radius of the tapping point on the disc will there be a point of voltage reversal where the part of the disc going from the radius of the magnet to "infinity" overrules the voltage going from the center of the disc to the radius of the magnet...if so we can eliminate back torque. This can be easilly tried out with a setup like Craigy's with a sufficiently big disc plate a few times bigger than the magnet. I might perform this experiment as well with cardboard and tinfoil as my disc.


Offline PaulLowrance

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Re: N-machine theory tested
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2009, 03:26:12 PM »
I tried another experiment where I routed a wire going from the outer edge of the PM going to the its center and then out. When high current was flowing through the wire, there was a force on the wire to force it to rotate, as expected, but there was *no* force on the magnet.

If the N-machine is COP>1, then it must be due to another effect. The current flowing through the metal does not produce a counter opposing force on the magnet.

This other effect might be due to the rotating magnetic field, as Bruce claims inertia changes (and perhaps other things) from rotating objects.

Paul

 

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