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Author Topic: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power  (Read 252393 times)

hanon

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #165 on: August 14, 2014, 12:56:06 AM »
Hi gotoluc,

Your last videos outperforming a speaker  by almost 10 times is great!!

In this other video at instant 14:19 sec. you state that the current generated while moving (concentrating in its generator mode) has the same polarity as the current that you send to excite the coil.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYoXmDvFqQs#t=14m19s

In case so, this motor would not have back emf, and the generator mode of this device will create a current which will reinforce you input current. Could you elaborate a bit deeperow you tested this feature? I am really interested because of the big consecuences of this fact !!!

I  think that the simplest way is to testing it adding a second small coil outside the first coil. Then with a scope you can compare the applied voltage in the first coil and the generated voltage in the second coil. How did you test it? 

Thanks and congratulation for your great work!!!


Khwartz

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #166 on: August 14, 2014, 10:10:35 AM »
Hi Khwartz,

I have next to no schooling. The things I can do are mostly self taught. The experiments I do are my way of trying to learn more in hopes that one day I'll know enough to build a device to be energy independent.

I don't know why but learning all those math equations does not interest me.

I've always been hands on and not into reading patents and theorizing about this or that.

If I find something interesting from the stuff I build that's not commonly done, I share it and hopefully the more knowledgeable ones will find a use for it, suggest different tests or explain in a laymen way why it's not useful.
Anything thrown at me from an academic level is like water on a ducks back.

Luc
Lol, no problem Luc,  just do like you feel better to do :) and sorry if you perceived me too much academic ^_^

Anyway, it was not only for you I was writing, other readers may be interested one or an other day.

Just: one interest of a equations and methodology, is to help to know if we are on the right path or not.

All I wanted to say is that "power" must not be confused with "force", even if it is related with. But I won't bother you again with any "theoretical development"; you did very well until now, so I think to that is good you still continue to do your very own way :)

Best regards,
Khwartz.

gotoluc

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #167 on: August 14, 2014, 05:12:01 PM »
Hi gotoluc,

Your last videos outperforming a speaker  by almost 10 times is great!!

In this other video at instant 14:19 sec. you state that the current generated while moving (concentrating in its generator mode) has the same polarity as the current that you send to excite the coil.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYoXmDvFqQs#t=14m19s

In case so, this motor would not have back emf, and the generator mode of this device will create a current which will reinforce you input current. Could you elaborate a bit deeperow you tested this feature? I am really interested because of the big consecuences of this fact !!!

I  think that the simplest way is to testing it adding a second small coil outside the first coil. Then with a scope you can compare the applied voltage in the first coil and the generated voltage in the second coil. How did you test it? 

Thanks and congratulation for your great work!!!

Hi hanon,

back emf could become quite a topic of conversation.
I can confirm the current created by the coils generator effect goes in the same direction as the input current used to move the coil.
How I tested this is simply connect a DC volt meter the the coil and move it by hand in one direction and note the coils polarities. Then, connect the coil to a DC voltage source with the same polarities to see if the coil moves in the same direction as moving it by hand.
It does go in the same direction.
Somehow I don't think this means it has no back emf since I did the same test with a DC permanent magnet motor and the results were the same.

Where this design may have an advantage compared to a standard motor is when the coil reaches the end of the stroke and is switched off.  The coils Flyback goes in the same direction as the next input pulse would needs to go to move the coil in the opposite direction. So it seems the  flyback is working in a complementary way compared to what may be happening in a DC motor.

This is my own observation and would need to be confirmed by the more qualified individuals.

Hope this helps to answer your questions.
If anyone else would like to add or correct anything please feel free to do so, as this would only help many to better understand the working of a motor or an Inductor in motion.

Thanks for your interest and participation

Luc

telecom

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #168 on: August 16, 2014, 03:41:56 AM »
To everyone,

since this topic has been re-opened I may as well share a better performing version of my Mostly Magnet Motor which I compared its pulling force to an off the shelf speaker.

So here is the link to the unlisted video if anyone is interested to see it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qa1dO8qWPQU

Luc
Hi Luc
very excited at your progress.
Perhaps you can make a jig where you can lift up a certain weight so many times per second
= you may be are getting very close to OU, if not there already!
For example, 1 W = .1 kg X m/sec
In your case, for 0.4 W, you will need to lift 500 g by .08 m (8 cm) once a second,
or 500g by 2 cm 4 times per second...

gotoluc

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #169 on: August 16, 2014, 07:04:39 AM »
Hi Luc
very excited at your progress.
Perhaps you can make a jig where you can lift up a certain weight so many times per second
= you may be are getting very close to OU, if not there already!
For example, 1 W = .1 kg X m/sec
In your case, for 0.4 W, you will need to lift 500 g by .08 m (8 cm) once a second,
or 500g by 2 cm 4 times per second...

Hi telecom,

last night I was actually thinking that maybe there could be a possibility of OU since I have a newer tandem design that should double what I already have done. So 1 Kg pull with less then 0.5 W should be possible.
I just have to build the thing. However, the main problem is I don't have enough steel lamination core material to build it. So I was thinking to use solid steel just for testing and proof of concepts and wondering if the eddy currents using solid steel would make such a big difference if the coil is only on for a second and traveling less the 10 cm?
Anybody care to comment on that?

Luc

gyulasun

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #170 on: August 16, 2014, 02:55:08 PM »
...
I can confirm the current created by the coils generator effect goes in the same direction as the input current used to move the coil.   How I tested this is simply connect a DC volt meter the the coil and move it by hand in one direction and note the coils polarities. Then, connect the coil to a DC voltage source with the same polarities to see if the coil moves in the same direction as moving it by hand.
It does go in the same direction.
Somehow I don't think this means it has no back emf since I did the same test with a DC permanent magnet motor and the results were the same.

Hi Luc,

I also think that your setup has back emf (I would prefer calling it counter emf), your tests clearly show it: the induced voltage in the coil (due to the normal generator effect) has the same polarity as the input voltage polarity i.e. two voltage sources are connected to each other in any moment, positive to positive, negative to negative and only the instantaneous voltage difference can drive current in the coil in any moment. This is indeed just the case of a normal DC permanent magnet motor behaviour.

I hope member hanon still reads this thread too.

Quote
Where this design may have an advantage compared to a standard motor is when the coil reaches the end of the stroke and is switched off.  The coils Flyback goes in the same direction as the next input pulse would needs to go to move the coil in the opposite direction. So it seems the  flyback is working in a complementary way compared to what may be happening in a DC motor. 


Yes it sounds correct and a suitable circuit would be needed to utilize the flyback pulse, it could be added to the supply voltage, preferably in series with it, to increase its amplitude. 

....
I just have to build the thing. However, the main problem is I don't have enough steel lamination core material to build it. So I was thinking to use solid steel just for testing and proof of concepts and wondering if the eddy currents using solid steel would make such a big difference if the coil is only on for a second and traveling less the 10 cm?
....


I think that you could use steel for test purposes up to a few Hz without noticable loss (there will be loss of course), and going up higher, say 5-10 Hz, eddy current losses will increase gradually.
If you could spare laminated core just for the center bar on which the coil would move and use solid steel for the additional cores around the coil, then eddy losses would remain low I think up to 15-20 Hz or so (just a guess).

Regards,  Gyula

Liberty

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #171 on: August 16, 2014, 04:12:46 PM »
Hi telecom,

last night I was actually thinking that maybe there could be a possibility of OU since I have a newer tandem design that should double what I already have done. So 1 Kg pull with less then 0.5 W should be possible.
I just have to build the thing. However, the main problem is I don't have enough steel lamination core material to build it. So I was thinking to use solid steel just for testing and proof of concepts and wondering if the eddy currents using solid steel would make such a big difference if the coil is only on for a second and traveling less the 10 cm?
Anybody care to comment on that?

Luc

I think you will find that if you use a coil directly in the device, it will react with the "generator effect" from the magnetic field and limit your device from performing OU.  The closer the magnetic coupling (between magnetic field and coil), the more efficient the device, but also the generator effect in the coil also increases proportionally, assuring a limit of less than 100% efficiency. 

Liberty

Khwartz

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #172 on: August 16, 2014, 09:48:31 PM »
Luc, obviously, if you succeed to have o.u. with plain steel bars, you will have with too and even better, so it always worth a try :)

tinman

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #173 on: August 17, 2014, 05:05:03 AM »
Hi hanon,

back emf could become quite a topic of conversation.
I can confirm the current created by the coils generator effect goes in the same direction as the input current used to move the coil.
How I tested this is simply connect a DC volt meter the the coil and move it by hand in one direction and note the coils polarities. Then, connect the coil to a DC voltage source with the same polarities to see if the coil moves in the same direction as moving it by hand.
It does go in the same direction.
Somehow I don't think this means it has no back emf since I did the same test with a DC permanent magnet motor and the results were the same.

Where this design may have an advantage compared to a standard motor is when the coil reaches the end of the stroke and is switched off.  The coils Flyback goes in the same direction as the next input pulse would needs to go to move the coil in the opposite direction. So it seems the  flyback is working in a complementary way compared to what may be happening in a DC motor.

This is my own observation and would need to be confirmed by the more qualified individuals.

Hope this helps to answer your questions.
If anyone else would like to add or correct anything please feel free to do so, as this would only help many to better understand the working of a motor or an Inductor in motion.

Thanks for your interest and participation

Luc
Luc
The current flow from the flyback from an inductor(coil) remains in the same direction,but the voltage polarity invert's. The answer as to how to capture the flyback and use it again is right there in Bendini's SSG pulse motor circuit.Just swap the charge battery out for a good size cap,and you have your power for your reverse pulse right there in the charge cap.You could actually use a double acting relay to achieve the switching-infact i have the perfect device to achieve this switching and collecting of power for your setup.I used it in the little moter bellow.You will also notice i use the term backEMF where i should have said flyback collection-the days befor i knew the difference between the two. So insted of using the flyback to run the LED,you can collect that in a cap,and use it to pulse your reversing coil.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4VJG8-9izQ&list=UUsLiBC2cL5GsZGLcj2rm-4w

tinman

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #174 on: August 17, 2014, 05:07:43 AM »
@ Luc
If you dont mind,i might build myself a setup,and follow along in your work.
Maybe we can help each other out on this one?.

gyulasun

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #175 on: August 17, 2014, 12:14:28 PM »
Luc
The current flow from the flyback from an inductor(coil) remains in the same direction,but the voltage polarity invert's. The answer as to how to capture the flyback and use it again is right there in Bendini's SSG pulse motor circuit.Just swap the charge battery out for a good size cap,and you have your power for your reverse pulse right there in the charge cap.You could actually use a double acting relay to achieve the switching-infact i have the perfect device to achieve this switching and collecting of power for your setup.I used it in the little moter bellow.You will also notice i use the term backEMF where i should have said flyback collection-the days befor i knew the difference between the two. So insted of using the flyback to run the LED,you can collect that in a cap,and use it to pulse your reversing coil.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4VJG8-9izQ&list=UUsLiBC2cL5GsZGLcj2rm-4w

Hi Brad,

If I got it right, Luc drives his moving coil from the output of a full H bridge (to have current hence pole polarity change in the right moments as the coil reaches the ends of its course) so this involves ground independent coil ends in his present setup. So to catch the flyback pulse across such coil you have to use a circuit to handle that ground-independently.
To solve this, perhaps the simplest thing would be to use a bifilar coil to get the exact "image" of the spike in the coupled coil. I mean one coil in the bifilar is the normal working coil and the other (identical) coil in the bifilar will be a ground independent output for the flyback pulse. This solution may also help to add this captured energy to the input voltage source perhaps more easily than with other circuit variants where there is no such output coupling coil.

Gyula

PS  Sorry I have had no time to watch your above video so if you have a double coil in it, then ... I  :'(   


tinman

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #177 on: August 17, 2014, 04:07:43 PM »
Hi Brad,

If I got it right, Luc drives his moving coil from the output of a full H bridge (to have current hence pole polarity change in the right moments as the coil reaches the ends of its course) so this involves ground independent coil ends in his present setup. So to catch the flyback pulse across such coil you have to use a circuit to handle that ground-independently.
To solve this, perhaps the simplest thing would be to use a bifilar coil to get the exact "image" of the spike in the coupled coil. I mean one coil in the bifilar is the normal working coil and the other (identical) coil in the bifilar will be a ground independent output for the flyback pulse. This solution may also help to add this captured energy to the input voltage source perhaps more easily than with other circuit variants where there is no such output coupling coil.

Gyula

PS  Sorry I have had no time to watch your above video so if you have a double coil in it, then ... I  :'(
Hi Gyulasun

That is why i suggested using a double acting relay-to isolate the ground between the two stages.But the double wound coil sounds like a good idea aswell-dont really like calling them bifilar,as thats not quite the  right term.

gotoluc

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #178 on: August 17, 2014, 11:53:13 PM »
Hello fellow researchers

sorry for the delay in reply. I was away at a weekend retreat.

I do agree there should be no OU in this setup but you have to agree that it's a different design then the classical stuff, with no cogging,  the coil between opposing magnets and a stable Inductance throughout the coils movement. So maybe it's worth a try. We'll never know till we try!

@ TinMan very glad to have caught your interest and couldn't be happier to work with you and see your replication a la TinMan.

@ Gyula I have thought about a double wound (bifilar) coil to Isolate the flyback. My latest test video the coil is bifilar to test these kinds of things but it was connected in parallel to have less wire resistance. A possible downfall could be the double weight of the coil. It all needs to be tested but glad it has some hopes up.

Luc

tinman

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #179 on: August 18, 2014, 12:38:14 AM »
Hi Luc
Is there a schematic for your setup here some where?