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Author Topic: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power  (Read 140911 times)

Offline i_ron

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #75 on: April 17, 2012, 08:25:09 PM »
According to my calculation you gained 0.17J in potential energy and used 1.185J electrically so 6.9% efficiency in that case. But this test alone is not really good on its own due to joule heating and wasted inductive energy.


Thanks broli ! still that is better than 3%, lol


I didn't mention, that test was with steel end plates.


Ron

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Offline gotoluc

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #76 on: April 17, 2012, 08:44:41 PM »
Hi everyone,

sorry for not getting back sooner but I have very limited internet access.
Thank you for all your input. I will try to reply to most and then will be back in another 2 days.

Luc

Offline gotoluc

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #77 on: April 17, 2012, 08:52:06 PM »
Interesting Stuff Luc, did you make those laminations yourself?

Yes, I took apart some UPS transformers, used the wire to make coils and the Laminations to make all this stuff you see.

Luc

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #77 on: April 17, 2012, 08:52:06 PM »
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Offline gotoluc

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #78 on: April 17, 2012, 08:54:13 PM »
Hi Luc.

I've stuck the maths in a spreadsheet for you.

Here is the Microsoft Excel version :

http://internut.webspace.virginmedia.com/Lucmotor%20Efficiency%20Test%20-%20Capacitor%20Version.xls

Here is the Open Office version :

http://internut.webspace.virginmedia.com/Lucmotor%20Efficiency%20Test%20-%20Capacitor%20Version.ods


All the best,

DC.

Thanks DC for taking the time to make this

Luc

Offline gotoluc

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #79 on: April 17, 2012, 09:02:07 PM »

Im not sure I agree with the first statement above.  The magnets applied to the top and bottom of the core are same poles facing the core. If you know how typical speaker technology, the magnets fields are not inline with the voice coil. They are "directed" to be from the inner side of the coil to the outer of the coils circumference.

So Lucs inner core with N facing in on top and on the bottom, those are repelling fields.
Those fields N will be directed outward from the central core. All along that center core are north fields outward, perpendicular to the core, looping back around to the south poles at the top and bottom.

Then you add the outer cores amd the path for thos outward N fields become more concentrated because the loop cannot expand outwards to get to the south. The outer cores help contain and direct the fields, very similar to a speaker voice coil and magnet structure.

So basically Luc, If you want to enhance your knowledge greatly with your project, study speaker design. Or more to the point, high power sub woofer design.

There are special speaker designs that will interest you also is a planar speaker design with a spiral coil on a diaphragm between 2 flat disc magnets with lots of tiny holes for the air pressure(sound wave) to pass through the front and the rear. Pioneer made a very nice set of headphones using the planar method years ago. And the disk magnets were same pole facing in, like your setup. The bass reproduction from those headphones was UnReal.

So dont think about the coil being attracted and repelled by the magnets at the top and bottom, but how the coil reacts to the fields escaping outward all along the central core.
The coils powered interaction to those fields lines perpendicular to the core is what is really going on. If you remove the core, or replace it with a non magnetic one, your output will not be better. It will be an inefficient speaker in comparison.

And, I dont believe there is any ring happening when Luc discharges the cap into the coil. It actually is taking a good amount of time for it to totally discharge from high to low then nadda.  Electrolytic caps dont provide a good oscillating environment anyways.
Try it, its not very good at all.

Luc,  look into the speaker and high power subwoofer design that can be found. There is not as much as you might think. Not for people like us anyways. There is a program out there that allows you to design speakers in a cad environment. You can design the cores, magnets and the rest any way you want. I have to look the name up as it was years ago that I have looked into the subject.   Google books has some good old stuff also. ;]

here is a sub woofer design I had made near 15 years ago. The key features were shallow depth with longer throw, elimination of the lower spider suspension by utilizing a second inverse rubber surround of which helps to keep the cone and coil on axis.

Earthquake audio company got it out before I did with the dual rubber surround suspension eliminating the spider and reducing depth. 

The magnets in the magnet housing are N facing inwards to the center and S outward to the outer core. Alumapro conquered that part of it soon after.

I just couldnt get the funding to break it out at the time. too little too late

Very interesting Mags

I'll let it soak in for a while.

Nice speaker design man 8)

Thanks for sharing your work and experience

Luc

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #79 on: April 17, 2012, 09:02:07 PM »
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Offline gotoluc

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #80 on: April 17, 2012, 09:10:31 PM »
You're welcome, and you know I'm not knocking your efforts.

Here's what I get, running the energy in the cap against the potential energy of the lift.

You've lifted 120 grams by 1 millimeter, using a cap of 0.272 microFarad charged to 325 Volts.

Putting everything in mks units we have
0.120 kg lifted 0.001 meter using a cap of 0.000000272 Farad at 325 Volts.

The energy on the cap is
(CV^2)/2 ==  (1/2) x (0.000000272) x (325) x (325) == just under 0.015 Joule.

The energy of the lifted mass (gravitational potential energy, the energy it takes to lift the mass against gravity) is
(mgh) == (0.120) x (9. 8) x (0.001) == just under 0.0012 Joule.

(I usually just use 10 m/s^2 for g, the local acceleration due to gravity, but 9.8 is more correct if more difficult to calculate with. I've always believed that Earth's gravity was a bit light, anyway.... it should be one Standard G of 10 meters per second per second exactly.)

Now, you are almost certainly also fighting against friction and other drag forces like eddy current drag so it will actually take somewhat more energy to lift your mass a given height, but unfortunately these will also work against you in the other direction as well and so represent (probably unrecoverable) losses to the system. So you can say that it takes  _at least_  0.0012 Joule for your system to raise your mass, possibly much more. Ten times more, due to losses? So if your system actually expends ten times the GPE, or 0.012 Joule, to lift the mass .... that is still less than the 0.015 Joule that you started with in the capacitor.

I'm bad about decimal points, though. I've checked this a couple times and I still wind up with a dismal efficiency of around 8 percent, from cap energy to mass lift.

(ETA: I think the first way I'd try, to improve the energy transfer, would be to tune for  the "critically damped" condition. )

Thanks for making the calculations TK

So 8% only :o ::) :P ... I quickly read the posts below and it seems Stefan saying I'm close to unity!.... any idea how that could be?

Thanks my friend

Luc

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #81 on: April 17, 2012, 11:38:20 PM »
Oh and i can already hear your next question:

What if we change the magnets to North-South-South-North?

Well here it is see the vid.

Hi  microcontroller,

what was the exact configuration when you DID NOT get induction and what was the case, when you DID GET

induction ?

Many thanks.-

Regards, Stefan.


What was the coil and magnet orientation then ?

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #81 on: April 17, 2012, 11:38:20 PM »
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Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #82 on: April 17, 2012, 11:41:06 PM »
Hi Luc,
you need at least to get 10 times better with your lift to get into the
unity range.
To get conclusive overunity you need to get about15 to 20 times better so you could also close the loop.

So you really need to get much bigger magnets and setups and also much bigger cores.

Size really matters here and this is the case with ALL magnetic setups to get good efficiency and
reduce losses...

Regards, Stefan.

Offline gotoluc

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #83 on: April 18, 2012, 08:45:17 AM »


Luc,


I had to do a quick test on your neat idea. 


The coil is 27mm wide with about 730 turns of #25 wire for 12 ohms. Running on 12 volts is about 12 watts.


The magnets are 1/2 x 1 1/2 inches (12 x 38mm) the rod is 3 inches of 1 1/2 inch CR steel (76 x 35mm)


For the pull test I am starting with the coil to the left and pulling to the right.


With single magnets the initial pull is .75 KG's finishing at 1.02 kG's


With two magnets each end the pull is 1.2 kG's and 1.4 kG's


This is quite a contrast with a solenoid where the pull is very slight at the start and ramps up to maximum only at the end of the pull in.


On the use of a crankshaft: I would suggest timing the pulse to only cover say 80% of the stroke and so when the crank pin is immediately in front of or 180 at the other end of the stroke there is no pulse input. A small flywheel would carry the machine through the dead band.


Ron

Hi Ron,

great test!... thanks for trying it out.

Regarding the coil stroke time. I think the motor should be a 2 cylinder minimum so you reduce the power stroke of each coil but each coil covers the other coils off time so we have zero dead spot. The motor would have 100% torque at 360 degrees rotation.

Luc

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #83 on: April 18, 2012, 08:45:17 AM »
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Offline gotoluc

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #84 on: April 18, 2012, 08:49:31 AM »
Hi Luc,
well done new video.

In your video 5 about it,
you would need to lift this coil up 1.2 cm to get to 100 % efficiency.
All over 1.2 cm lift would be overunity at this cap size and charged voltage.

But you only lifted it maybe 1 mm ? So you need to get it lifted 10 times better,
which could be probably done by just using many more and much stronger magnets...

Magnet motors and things have to be build at least 10 times more bigger than this to get into the
overunity mode. If you build it too small, you will never have the chance to get it to overunity !

Here always the truth it: Size matters and bigger is better !

Regards, Stefan,

Hi Stefan,

that's good if we are close!... I'll see if I can make some lamination sides for the outside of the test coil. That should give it an extra boost.

Luc

Offline gotoluc

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #85 on: April 18, 2012, 08:57:06 AM »
Hello Luc i did some experiments along these lines in the late 2005.
It can be as easy as sticking magnets to a modified transformer see below.
These are used is SMPS for noise suppression.

The coil form usually has 4 segments so i cut it into half leaving two segments only, and then it can move over the core due to the created free space.

The coil form you see in the picture is specifically wound the first segment is wound clockwise while the second segment is wound counter clockwise, and i think you can guess what the field looks like when it is energized on a DC current  :)

Hi microcontroller,

thanks for posting your ideas.

I have also tested transformer E cores assembled together and it did not work for me. The problem was there was no movement of the coil.  I have also tested bucking coils and that is the same problem (no movement)

If you are getting it to move please do a short video of it please

Thanks for sharing

Luc

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #85 on: April 18, 2012, 08:57:06 AM »
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Offline gotoluc

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #86 on: April 18, 2012, 09:01:22 AM »
@ gotoluc

I just recently got to watch a good chunk of your videos.  I'm incredibly late, having avoided research for a few years; but Great job with all the work and videos!
That's pretty much it ATM, lol.  Just wanted to say good work!

Thanks

Thanks Peanutbutter29 for your positive words

Luc

Offline gotoluc

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #87 on: April 18, 2012, 09:06:59 AM »
Hi Luc,
you need at least to get 10 times better with your lift to get into the
unity range.
To get conclusive overunity you need to get about15 to 20 times better so you could also close the loop.

So you really need to get much bigger magnets and setups and also much bigger cores.

Size really matters here and this is the case with ALL magnetic setups to get good efficiency and
reduce losses...

Regards, Stefan.

Hi Stefan,

I thought you said if I get the coil to go up to 1.2mm then we are at 100%... but now you say 10 times more which is over 12mm. Which one is it?

Luc

EDIT Okay, I see my error Stefan wrote 1.2cm and thought it was 1.2mm.  We are far off and I don't think I could get it to that using the current build.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2012, 04:49:50 PM by gotoluc »

Offline DeepCut

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #88 on: April 18, 2012, 11:44:39 AM »
Luc asked me to update the spreadsheets to use grammes instead of kg, millimetres instead of metres etc.

New versions are same names so same download links used.

Here is the Microsoft Excel version :

http://internut.webspace.virginmedia.com/Lucmotor%20Efficiency%20Test%20-%20Capacitor%20Version.xls

Here is the Open Office version :

http://internut.webspace.virginmedia.com/Lucmotor%20Efficiency%20Test%20-%20Capacitor%20Version.ods


*** edit add ***

I think they may have downloaded as read-only before but this should be fixed now.

Stupid UNIX file permissions ;+}

*************



All the best,

DC.

Offline Jimboot

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #89 on: April 18, 2012, 02:31:04 PM »
@gotoluc thanks mate luvyawork. Just had a play with a Rodin coil and your idea.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3Q_1c11wRQ
Edit: link fixed

 

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