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Author Topic: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power  (Read 140903 times)

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #60 on: April 15, 2012, 09:13:55 PM »
Here is a closeup cutaway view. I made all this in Cinema 4D. Coil is shown in red, and the magnets is yellow. The magnets N pole is facing inward toward the coil.
 
 Mags

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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #61 on: April 15, 2012, 09:31:14 PM »
Thanks for your post TinselKoala.

Math is not my thing!... I have other talents.

I have a new test video uploading now but I can give you the results. So please help me and calculate how this test scores.

The Inductor weighs 115 to 120 grams. I can now lift it 1mm or more using a 0.272uf capacitor charged at 325vdc

How does this now score?

It could get better with stronger magnets but at this time this is all I have

I will post the new video demo as soon as it is ready for viewing

Thanks for your time and help

Luc

You're welcome, and you know I'm not knocking your efforts.

Here's what I get, running the energy in the cap against the potential energy of the lift.

You've lifted 120 grams by 1 millimeter, using a cap of 0.272 microFarad charged to 325 Volts.

Putting everything in mks units we have
0.120 kg lifted 0.001 meter using a cap of 0.000000272 Farad at 325 Volts.

The energy on the cap is
(CV^2)/2 ==  (1/2) x (0.000000272) x (325) x (325) == just under 0.015 Joule.

The energy of the lifted mass (gravitational potential energy, the energy it takes to lift the mass against gravity) is
(mgh) == (0.120) x (9. 8) x (0.001) == just under 0.0012 Joule.

(I usually just use 10 m/s^2 for g, the local acceleration due to gravity, but 9.8 is more correct if more difficult to calculate with. I've always believed that Earth's gravity was a bit light, anyway.... it should be one Standard G of 10 meters per second per second exactly.)

Now, you are almost certainly also fighting against friction and other drag forces like eddy current drag so it will actually take somewhat more energy to lift your mass a given height, but unfortunately these will also work against you in the other direction as well and so represent (probably unrecoverable) losses to the system. So you can say that it takes  _at least_  0.0012 Joule for your system to raise your mass, possibly much more. Ten times more, due to losses? So if your system actually expends ten times the GPE, or 0.012 Joule, to lift the mass .... that is still less than the 0.015 Joule that you started with in the capacitor.

I'm bad about decimal points, though. I've checked this a couple times and I still wind up with a dismal efficiency of around 8 percent, from cap energy to mass lift.

(ETA: I think the first way I'd try, to improve the energy transfer, would be to tune for  the "critically damped" condition. )

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #62 on: April 15, 2012, 10:40:31 PM »
You might also find this (long) document interesting.

http://www.coilgun.info/plim/braam_daniels_pulsed_linear_induction_motor.pdf

Apparently an efficiency of  8 percent is actually rather good for a coilgun/linear induction motor, which I think this basically is, only "inside out" .

Actually, I think the loudspeaker design's magnetic circuit is doing what I was trying to describe.

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #62 on: April 15, 2012, 10:40:31 PM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #63 on: April 16, 2012, 12:14:22 AM »
Here is a lil site that explains it also

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/audio/spk.html

It also shows how the coil can move in and out of the flux gap, and why I designed my speaker to always be in the gap, long strong(neo) gap

I have been searching for a while now. Only found a couple things so far on speaker motor design.  Makes me wonder what the big secret is. lol  Still looking.

I went through this back then also.

Mags

Offline conradelektro

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #64 on: April 16, 2012, 01:46:13 PM »
@microcontroller:

Your transformer-linear-motor is a clever idea. I like how you transformed a common component (a transformer and its coil) into a interesting experiment.

What were the results of your experiments and how far did you push your design?

Greetings, Conrad

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #64 on: April 16, 2012, 01:46:13 PM »
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Offline i_ron

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #65 on: April 16, 2012, 05:46:40 PM »
Thanks Tom,

I now see how your system works.

So you think all these bearings and gears are more efficient then a crankshaft!... I would not of think so but since you built it I'll take your word on it.

Very interesting and thanks for sharing

Luc


Hi Luc,


Here is another clever crankshaftless design


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=fvwp&NR=1&v=Xo9vAZGnrmM


Ron

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #66 on: April 17, 2012, 12:50:04 AM »
Hi Luc,
well done new video.

In your video 5 about it,
you would need to lift this coil up 1.2 cm to get to 100 % efficiency.
All over 1.2 cm lift would be overunity at this cap size and charged voltage.

But you only lifted it maybe 1 mm ? So you need to get it lifted 10 times better,
which could be probably done by just using many more and much stronger magnets...

Magnet motors and things have to be build at least 10 times more bigger than this to get into the
overunity mode. If you build it too small, you will never have the chance to get it to overunity !

Here always the truth it: Size matters and bigger is better !

Regards, Stefan,

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #66 on: April 17, 2012, 12:50:04 AM »
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Offline i_ron

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #67 on: April 17, 2012, 01:03:58 AM »

Hi Luc,


Here is another clever crankshaftless design



Ron



Luc,


I had to do a quick test on your neat idea. 


The coil is 27mm wide with about 730 turns of #25 wire for 12 ohms. Running on 12 volts is about 12 watts.


The magnets are 1/2 x 1 1/2 inches (12 x 38mm) the rod is 3 inches of 1 1/2 inch CR steel (76 x 35mm)


For the pull test I am starting with the coil to the left and pulling to the right.


With single magnets the initial pull is .75 KG's finishing at 1.02 kG's


With two magnets each end the pull is 1.2 kG's and 1.4 kG's


This is quite a contrast with a solenoid where the pull is very slight at the start and ramps up to maximum only at the end of the pull in.


On the use of a crankshaft: I would suggest timing the pulse to only cover say 80% of the stroke and so when the crank pin is immediately in front of or 180 at the other end of the stroke there is no pulse input. A small flywheel would carry the machine through the dead band.


Ron
« Last Edit: April 17, 2012, 04:05:56 AM by i_ron »

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #68 on: April 17, 2012, 01:15:38 AM »
Hello Luc i did some experiments along these lines in the late 2005.
It can be as easy as sticking magnets to a modified transformer see below.
These are used is SMPS for noise suppression.

The coil form usually has 4 segments so i cut it into half leaving two segments only, and then it can move over the core due to the created free space.

The coil form you see in the picture is specifically wound the first segment is wound clockwise while the second segment is wound counter clockwise, and i think you can guess what the field looks like when it is energized on a DC current  :)

Hi microcontroller,
interesting coil modification, so you have the coil built like a bucking coil ?

So how are your permanent magnets then polarized outside of the core ?
Just north to south ?
Would be interesting to see your coil current on a scope, if it will kill
out all the induction from the movement as the 2 coil parts are 180 degrees out of phase
so the induction from the movement will cancel all out ?

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #68 on: April 17, 2012, 01:15:38 AM »
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Offline Peanutbutter29

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #69 on: April 17, 2012, 05:04:05 AM »
@ gotoluc

I just recently got to watch a good chunk of your videos.  I'm incredibly late, having avoided research for a few years; but Great job with all the work and videos!
That's pretty much it ATM, lol.  Just wanted to say good work!

Thanks

Offline hallo

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #70 on: April 17, 2012, 06:06:49 PM »
microcontroller,
your crankshaft design looks great !
Please post also any updates when you get it to run with all the electronics connected.

many thanks !

P.S: Please explain more your recent 2 videos with the coils.
As I am not at home and am currently in a public library I could only see it without audio.

But more explanations how the coil configurations are killing the induction would be great !


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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #70 on: April 17, 2012, 06:06:49 PM »
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Offline hallo

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #71 on: April 17, 2012, 06:27:37 PM »
Here is the formular for the height to be 100 % efficient.

For overunity you must just have a higher height than this value.


height in meters = 0.5 x C in Farads x voltage^2   /   (mass in kg x 9.81 )

For our US based users they are probably more use to inches,
so we can convert this formular to height in inches and the capacity in uF :

height in inches = 0.5 x C in uF x voltage^2  x 39.06 x 0.000001 /  ( mass in kg x 9.81 )


Offline hallo

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #72 on: April 17, 2012, 06:32:45 PM »
Okay, here the formular for also the mass in Gramms, the capacitance in MikroFarads (uF) and the height in Millimeters or in inches:


height in inches = 0.5 x C in uF x voltage^2  x 39.06 x 0.000001 /  ( mass in Gramms x 9.81 x 0.001 )

height in Millimeters = 0.5 x C in uF x voltage^2  x 100 x 0.000001 /  ( mass in Gramms x 9.81 x 0.001 )

Offline i_ron

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #73 on: April 17, 2012, 07:40:38 PM »




Stefan,


I have mounted my experiment vertically and added some weight to the coil.


Can you do the math on this please?


Steady state the coil is 12 volts at 1 amp


The weight of the coil and added weight is 358 grams


The height traveled is 47.5mm


The time is 98.75 mS


I have a N.O. micro switch which shuts the power off at the top of the travel


A couple of extra pulses here until the main switch is turned off


The time is in between the T1 and T2 markers


Thanks


Ron






Offline broli

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #74 on: April 17, 2012, 07:46:51 PM »
According to my calculation you gained 0.17J in potential energy and used 1.185J electrically so 6.9% efficiency in that case. But this test alone is not really good on its own due to joule heating and wasted inductive energy.

 

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