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Author Topic: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power  (Read 138021 times)

Offline gotoluc

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #30 on: April 14, 2012, 06:53:38 PM »

Gotoluc,


I like what you are doing, I love pinch fields, that is what I call it when you have the same poles facing each other like that.


I hate crankshafts, they are not efficient and so I made for myself a mechanical rectifier that is much more efficient and works wonderful with a solenoid input.


There are bidirectional solenoids that work in a similar, but not the same fashion, they have a core and a magnet out at the end of the coil, supply the power one way and it pulls the core in, the other way and it pushes it out, similar but not the same as yours.


Tom Webb

Hi Tom,

thanks for your post.

I also hate a crankshaft!  please share how your alternative works

Thanks for sharing

Luc

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline DreamThinkBuild

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #31 on: April 14, 2012, 07:06:44 PM »
Hi Luc,

Very inventive design, thanks for sharing. The weight of the coil moving back and forth at low speed would be good for a lever/pendulum setup.

This design I used a small motor with weight.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hr0KyMqMZtc

But if you place your motor centered on top it can use the displacement of the coil instead of a spinning weight. That would eliminate some side to side frame wobble and the powered side dead zones. Then lever through lenz with a big block N52 on the bottom over some coils... :)

Offline gotoluc

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #32 on: April 14, 2012, 07:42:43 PM »
3 one way needle rollers, 3 gears, 3 shafts, 2  connecting arms and one of those is also the input arm.

Thanks Tom,

I now see how your system works.

So you think all these bearings and gears are more efficient then a crankshaft!... I would not of think so but since you built it I'll take your word on it.

Very interesting and thanks for sharing

Luc

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #32 on: April 14, 2012, 07:42:43 PM »
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Offline gotoluc

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #33 on: April 14, 2012, 07:56:33 PM »
Hi Luc,

Very inventive design, thanks for sharing. The weight of the coil moving back and forth at low speed would be good for a lever/pendulum setup.

This design I used a small motor with weight.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hr0KyMqMZtc

But if you place your motor centered on top it can use the displacement of the coil instead of a spinning weight. That would eliminate some side to side frame wobble and the powered side dead zones. Then lever through lenz with a big block N52 on the bottom over some coils... :)

Thanks DreamThinkBuild,

I had not seen that video. Thanks for sharing it.
You're right about there's no need to spin the weight around. Just back and forth would do it even better.
Since you have the build, pickup a 120 vac Solenoid, find a longer core rod that fits nice, add the magnets on each ends, use a DPDT relay switched by Hall effects to send the AC pulses and let us know how it works out.

This is a great idea to use this effect.

Luc

Offline broli

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #34 on: April 14, 2012, 09:24:15 PM »
Slightly off topic, see you talking about an efficient way of extracting energy from reciprocating motion. Quite straight forward:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=B93n8sNsRpU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f2e6j3FqefM

Makes you also wonder why we're still using gasoline engines that are at best 40%-50%, well makes average joe wonder not the average community member.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #34 on: April 14, 2012, 09:24:15 PM »
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Online hartiberlin

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #35 on: April 14, 2012, 10:36:19 PM »
Hi Luc, are you sure you explained the scope channels right ?
Isn´t in the first scopeshot the green trace not the coil voltage or is it really the coil current ?

IMHO only green can be the coil voltage, otherwise I am pretty puzzled...
Hmmm...

Also how long do you energize the coil ?
Is it about these 16 milliseconds so about 4 x DIVs ?

Also it would be nice if we would have the same RPM in both scopeshots
to compare the waveforms... So I don´t know, where the zero point crossing voltage induction is
located regarding the coil location inside the motor ?

At which location  doesn´t  the coil generate any voltage when it is moved ?
Is it at the center location of the motor ?

Well the only time I know that there is no counter induction when a magnet passes
a coil or a coil passes a magnet is in the ORBO device,
where 2 ferrite toroid coils are 180 degrees out of phase, so the induction is canceled out,
but the toroids attract a magnet and when energized the magnet can pass
all happening WITHOUT any induction inside the toroid coils... So there LENZ law is fully
violated.

But here in your case I am not sure, it seems that Lenz is there, if the green trace in the first
scopeshot is the voltage across the coil.


Maybe you can try to use a charged capacitor to pulse the coil and see, how far it lifts
up the coil.
If you put additional weight on it or addtional magnets and if you can raise the coil higher than
the stored energy in the capacitor then you have already shown overunity.

The stored energy in the cap is 0.5 x C x Voltage^2
and the raised weight energy  = mass in Kg x g( earth acceleratiion 9.81)  x height-difference in meters

So if you can show with a single shot from a charged capacitor, that you can raise the
coil weight higher than the stored cap energy you would have already shown overunity.

So lets make a calculation example:

If you use 1 Farad as the Cap and have it charged up to 10 Volts you have an energy stored
as 0.5 x 1 x 100= 50 Wattseconds.

Now, if you put additional weight onto the coil so it is about 10 Kg
you should be able to lift the 10 Kg weight:

height difference=50 / ( 10 kg x 9.81 ) = 0.509 Meters

So if you could lift it vertically against gravity higher than 0.509 Meters you have Overunity.

This would be probably work best with bigger coils with just very fine wire and many turns and
much higher cap voltages.

Okay, so please let us know the fire timing of your circuit and the colors of your scopeshot
of what is what and I can have another pondering...

Many thanks.

Best regards, Stefan

Offline gotoluc

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #36 on: April 14, 2012, 11:15:02 PM »
Hi Luc, are you sure you explained the scope channels right ?
Isn´t in the first scopeshot the green trace not the coil voltage or is it really the coil current ?

IMHO only green can be the coil voltage, otherwise I am pretty puzzled...
Hmmm...

Also how long do you energize the coil ?
Is it about these 16 milliseconds so about 4 x DIVs ?

Also it would be nice if we would have the same RPM in both scopeshots
to compare the waveforms... So I don´t know, where the zero point crossing voltage induction is
located regarding the coil location inside the motor ?

At which location  doesn´t  the coil generate any voltage when it is moved ?
Is it at the center location of the motor ?

Well the only time I know that there is no counter induction when a magnet passes
a coil or a coil passes a magnet is in the ORBO device,
where 2 ferrite toroid coils are 180 degrees out of phase, so the induction is canceled out,
but the toroids attract a magnet and when energized the magnet can pass
all happening WITHOUT any induction inside the toroid coils... So there LENZ law is fully
violated.

But here in your case I am not sure, it seems that Lenz is there, if the green trace in the first
scopeshot is the voltage across the coil.


Maybe you can try to use a charged capacitor to pulse the coil and see, how far it lifts
up the coil.
If you put additional weight on it or addtional magnets and if you can raise the coil higher than
the stored energy in the capacitor then you have already shown overunity.

The stored energy in the cap is 0.5 x C x Voltage^2
and the raised weight energy  = mass in Kg x g( earth acceleratiion 9.81)  x height-difference in meters

So if you can show with a single shot from a charged capacitor, that you can raise the
coil weight higher than the stored cap energy you would have already shown overunity.

So lets make a calculation example:

If you use 1 Farad as the Cap and have it charged up to 10 Volts you have an energy stored
as 0.5 x 1 x 100= 50 Wattseconds.

Now, if you put additional weight onto the coil so it is about 10 Kg
you should be able to lift the 10 Kg weight:

height difference=50 / ( 10 kg x 9.81 ) = 0.509 Meters

So if you could lift it vertically against gravity higher than 0.509 Meters you have Overunity.

This would be probably work best with bigger coils with just very fine wire and many turns and
much higher cap voltages.

Okay, so please let us know the fire timing of your circuit and the colors of your scopeshot
of what is what and I can have another pondering...

Many thanks.

Best regards, Stefan

Hi Stefan,

thanks for your post.

The Green trace is the current in both scope shots.

The Coil is energized 99.5% of the time. It starts at one end of the core and when it reaches the other end it has an instant polarity shift. The polarity shift (AC) is so fast that I believe the flyback is incorporated at the beginning of the next opposing on time.

I'll try to get a scope shot with same RPM.

I'm not positive at which location the coil doesn't generate any voltage when moved but I would think the zero crossing happens when the coil reaches one end of the core and the crankshaft sends it back the other direction.

I will do a capacitive discharge as you suggest but I know if I add more weight and add more PM it will lift the extra weight. Are you sure this proves OU?... seems to easy to do :-\

Luc

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #36 on: April 14, 2012, 11:15:02 PM »
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Offline broli

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #37 on: April 15, 2012, 12:13:03 AM »
The potential energy experiment is actually a good test, good catch Stefan. I don't think you need to use that much energy though his setup is also very small.

Online hartiberlin

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #38 on: April 15, 2012, 12:13:25 AM »
Hi Luc,
okay, now I had another closer look.

As I don´t know, how your H-bridge circuit looks alike and how the resistances of the transistor
or MOSFETs change over time there, the yellow trace= coil voltage is a bit strange, but okay....

In the green trace you can see exactly that there is the LENZ law occuring, as in the motor operation you
see a quick accelerating current pulse and then the counter induction from the coil kicks in,
so the input current strongly gets reduced and as the coil gets slower again at the other turn
point the input current rises again as the counter EMF of the coil is reduced due to lower speed and
thus the input current rises again...
But the coil voltage should be different then also again, but maybe you H-Bridge is mostly powered
by cap discharges as the batteries might have a high internal resistance, so the coil voltage
behaves this strange...


Well, it surely also depends how long the coil is.
If you would have a short coil, that is only 0.5 cm long and the core would be 10 cm long
it would behave quite differently as it is now, where the core is maybe 10 cm long and the coil
is at least about 4 cm long ?

Also it could help to place in the center of the outer core some additional
iron core pieces so the return flux is concentrated in the center....then the counter EMF
would be also different and it could help to reduze Lenz law effect...

P.S. Yes, a device that can show more vertical lift height in ONE shot , that
does not comply to the energy conservation formular:

m x g x h = 0.5 x C x Voltage^2

will show overunity.

So if you can lift a weight vertically up into the air higher than the stored cap
voltage will tell you, you have a winner....!

Regards, Stefan.

Offline gotoluc

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #39 on: April 15, 2012, 02:09:16 AM »
Maybe you can try to use a charged capacitor to pulse the coil and see, how far it lifts
up the coil.
If you put additional weight on it or addtional magnets and if you can raise the coil higher than
the stored energy in the capacitor then you have already shown overunity.

The stored energy in the cap is 0.5 x C x Voltage^2
and the raised weight energy  = mass in Kg x g( earth acceleratiion 9.81)  x height-difference in meters

So if you can show with a single shot from a charged capacitor, that you can raise the
coil weight higher than the stored cap energy you would have already shown overunity.

So lets make a calculation example:

If you use 1 Farad as the Cap and have it charged up to 10 Volts you have an energy stored
as 0.5 x 1 x 100= 50 Wattseconds.

Now, if you put additional weight onto the coil so it is about 10 Kg
you should be able to lift the 10 Kg weight:

height difference=50 / ( 10 kg x 9.81 ) = 0.509 Meters

So if you could lift it vertically against gravity higher than 0.509 Meters you have Overunity.

This would be probably work best with bigger coils with just very fine wire and many turns and
much higher cap voltages.

Many thanks.

Best regards, Stefan

Hi Stefan

As per your request I have made a video demo to prove Overunity. Does this mean I can apply for the OU prize ;D

Link to video: http://youtu.be/OxuotFUWVGQ

Let me know what you think

Luc


Offline gotoluc

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #40 on: April 15, 2012, 02:38:34 AM »
Hi Luc,
okay, now I had another closer look.

As I don´t know, how your H-bridge circuit looks alike and how the resistances of the transistor
or MOSFETs change over time there, the yellow trace= coil voltage is a bit strange, but okay....

In the green trace you can see exactly that there is the LENZ law occuring, as in the motor operation you
see a quick accelerating current pulse and then the counter induction from the coil kicks in,
so the input current strongly gets reduced and as the coil gets slower again at the other turn
point the input current rises again as the counter EMF of the coil is reduced due to lower speed and
thus the input current rises again...
But the coil voltage should be different then also again, but maybe you H-Bridge is mostly powered
by cap discharges as the batteries might have a high internal resistance, so the coil voltage
behaves this strange...


Well, it surely also depends how long the coil is.
If you would have a short coil, that is only 0.5 cm long and the core would be 10 cm long
it would behave quite differently as it is now, where the core is maybe 10 cm long and the coil
is at least about 4 cm long ?

Also it could help to place in the center of the outer core some additional
iron core pieces so the return flux is concentrated in the center....then the counter EMF
would be also different and it could help to reduze Lenz law effect...

P.S. Yes, a device that can show more vertical lift height in ONE shot , that
does not comply to the energy conservation formular:

m x g x h = 0.5 x C x Voltage^2

will show overunity.

So if you can lift a weight vertically up into the air higher than the stored cap
voltage will tell you, you have a winner....!

Regards, Stefan.

Hi Stefan,

my H-Bridge has no capacitor. It's connected directly to the battery which was a 1.5vdc AA battery used in the first scope shot. The voltage was around 1.3vdc while in operation. The H-Bridge uses 4 x 60 volt rated MOSFET's that have a ultra low Resistance of 0.018 Ohm (model FP50N06). So noting should be wasted at the switches. I attached the pdf in case someone wants to look over the MOSFET specs.

Luc

Online hartiberlin

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #41 on: April 15, 2012, 03:16:54 AM »
Hi Stefan

As per your request I have made a video demo to prove Overunity. Does this mean I can apply for the OU prize ;D

Link to video: http://youtu.be/OxuotFUWVGQ

Let me know what you think

Luc


Hi Luc,
unfortunately not as you have to calculate the numbers:

lift-Energy= m x g x h= 0.3 Kg x 9.81 x 0.02 Meter= 0.05886 Wattseconds

Energy stored in the cap= 0.5 x 0.0047 Farads x (25.9 Volts)^2= 1.5764035 Wattseconds

So the efficiency is only

3.7 % only, if I did not miscalculate anything...
It is already very late over here in Berlin. time to go to bed...

Regards, Stefan.

Online hartiberlin

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #42 on: April 15, 2012, 03:25:47 AM »
P.S. But the lift height could be scaled up by using a higher turn coil
with many more fine windings and higher weight.
Also it is better then to to use higher voltages on the cap.

Also with more and powerful magnets you can scale this up.
Also you have to measure if you discharged the cap completely or
not, that goes also into the calculation.

If you do it like in the AVISO repelleing coil demo, you might benefit from
chopping and shortcircuiting the coil during the launch, so the coil gets and produces its own BackEMF during
the chopped and shorted out energizing, so it will generate more repelling energy to propell
the coil much higher...

Regards, Stefan.

Offline gotoluc

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #43 on: April 15, 2012, 03:27:47 AM »
Okay Stefan, I knew it was not as easy as you said :P

It's also late here 3:25am in Johannesburg

You do the math then let me know in writing what is needed to do the demo right.

Luc

Offline SkyWatcher123

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #44 on: April 15, 2012, 03:36:04 AM »
Hi folks, awesome work luc, thanks for sharing again the idea.
Hi harti, 3.7% efficiency does not sound right, his coil was hanging there for a moment also.
Math aside, lucs design is somewhat like garry stanleys dual rotor air core pulse motor, in that you can use many more magnets and get ever greater shaft work for the same input, I think it's possible that the math is not correlating between units properly to account for this.
Prony brake would be a better method, no cross unit errors.
Though in lucs design, to add more magnets and keep it from becoming an air core essentially, we'd have to prevent saturation, more ferro material in center core.
peace love light
tyson

 

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