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### Author Topic: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power  (Read 235167 times)

#### gotoluc

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##### Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #135 on: September 18, 2013, 12:35:45 AM »
Hello gotoluc, thanks for continuing your experiments

Very interesting to know it is not linear

When you say: "pulls 520g for 1.2 watts input.  However, if I drop the current it can pull 200g with .3 watts input", it is just ratio of force against electrical power; could tel us in how many th of second it lifts them in each case?

Cheer.

That's the problem!  I don't  have an accurate way of calculating such a fast and small amount of time for a movement.

All I can do is do that ca be accurate is a test of Joule energy (capacitive discharge) and measure how high it travels.

Luc

#### gotoluc

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##### Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #136 on: September 18, 2013, 12:51:32 AM »
Hi Luc,
this is a big step in the right direction.
If it takes 1 second, than the mechanical equivalent of .3 w X sec (.3 joyles) equals
3 kG x cm, and the efficiency is still below 10 %.
Perhaps you may add few more magnets, or increase number of strokes per second or both?

Hi telecom,

I think it would be more like 1/4 of a second to travel 1 cm in the modified version.

All I did to double the pull force (from last video) is, if you look towards the end of my video I added 2 small pieces of magnets on the ends of the center core and it helped a little, so basically I used this same model but added 1 inch N52 cube magnets on those ends and got 520g of pull instead of the 250g. So as you can see it's all about the strength of the magnets that will make a stronger pull force. I'm sure a design with more coil and core surface area will also boost things.

However, one important thing is the generator effect. The stronger the magnets the stronger the fight with the generator effect is (Lenz Law) This is what I'm more interested in finding, is a way we can use the Lenz effect to our advantage.

Luc

#### telecom

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• Posts: 559
##### Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #137 on: September 18, 2013, 01:47:37 AM »
Hi telecom,

I think it would be more like 1/4 of a second to travel 1 cm in the modified version.

All I did to double the pull force (from last video) is, if you look towards the end of my video I added 2 small pieces of magnets on the ends of the center core and it helped a little, so basically I used this same model but added 1 inch N52 cube magnets on those ends and got 520g of pull instead of the 250g. So as you can see it's all about the strength of the magnets that will make a stronger pull force. I'm sure a design with more coil and core surface area will also boost things.

However, one important thing is the generator effect. The stronger the magnets the stronger the fight with the generator effect is (Lenz Law) This is what I'm more interested in finding, is a way we can use the Lenz effect to our advantage.

Luc
Great,
in this case the equivalent is 750 G.
You are getting closer!

#### Khwartz

• Hero Member
• Posts: 601
##### Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #138 on: September 20, 2013, 12:42:53 AM »
That's the problem!  I don't  have an accurate way of calculating such a fast and small amount of time for a movement.

All I can do is do that ca be accurate is a test of Joule energy (capacitive discharge) and measure how high it travels.

Luc
What about a gearing counter or what ever kind, and you let it run for 1 minute? then you could make the ratio and have the average duration with more precision; what do you think?

#### gotoluc

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##### Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #139 on: September 20, 2013, 04:49:09 AM »
Just thought of this ... if I video tape the movement, we know NTSC video has 29.97 frames per second, so I think that should be accurate enough.

However, to get an accurate coil movement I would have to build a sliding guide system so the core doesn't loose power rubbing on the center core like it is now.

Unfortunately I'll have to put this on the back burner as the weather is great at this time for my houseboat building project: http://www.overunity.com/13496/building-a-solar-electric-houseboat/msg360011/#msg360011

Luc

#### Khwartz

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• Posts: 601
##### Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #140 on: September 20, 2013, 09:28:08 AM »
Looks good ideas, Luc and nice project, your home boat all seasons you just have made a little confusion in your initial post, but significant while been an electrician mysel: it suppose it was not "48 volts 100 amp/hours lithium ion battery" but "100 amp*hours"

Cheer..

#### gotoluc

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##### Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #141 on: September 20, 2013, 04:19:56 PM »
Looks good ideas, Luc and nice project, your home boat all seasons you just have made a little confusion in your initial post, but significant while been an electrician mysel: it suppose it was not "48 volts 100 amp/hours lithium ion battery" but "100 amp*hours"

Cheer..

I'm not sure I understand what confusion you see in my post?

The house battery needs to be 48vdc for the 5kw electric drive motor that is 48vdc. The battery bank will have maximum 100ah @ 48vdc
Where is the confusion?

Luc

#### Khwartz

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• Posts: 601
##### Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #142 on: September 21, 2013, 12:30:57 AM »
You typed: "amp/hours" while it is "amps*hours" or "amp.hours" where the former are energy.

You were dividing while it is a multiplication: the battery can sustain 1 amp during 100 hours or 10 amps during 10 hours and theoritically 100 amp during 1 hour; it is each time the current intensity multiply by the duration, not the intensity of current divided by the duration, which gives something very different (electrical power for 1V).

#### gotoluc

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##### Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #143 on: September 22, 2013, 04:39:04 AM »
Humm ... to me when I say a battery bank is 100 amp/hour it would mean it delivers 100 amps for 1 hour at the rated voltage.

I thought all battery A/H ratings are based on 1 hour?

Luc

#### Poit

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• Posts: 295
##### Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #144 on: September 22, 2013, 05:54:24 AM »
It doesn't matter if you multiple or divide. 100 amp hour is 100 amps (at the designated voltage) for 1 hour... 100 divide by 1 = 1. 100 multiplied by 1 = 1

so, to say 100amp/hour or 100amp*hour is effectively saying the same thing. 100 amps, for 1 hour. and the math can be worked out from this for other draws.. so 50 amp draw would last for 2 hours etc

all that said.. this only works when talking about the battery in a manner of fact way.. i.e you KNOW the battery is 100amp hour....

if you were trying to figure out how large a battery is with only measurements. then its multiply.. for instance.. say, you know there is 50amp draw and it lasts for two hours....... to figure out the battery size its 50 x 2 = 100 = 100amp/hour battery...

and any ways... i always thought the slash (/) wasn't a divide sign, but more so, stood for a "for" sign... in my mind I read 100amp/hour as 100amp  FOR an hour

#### gotoluc

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##### Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #145 on: September 22, 2013, 06:46:45 AM »
Oh... now I get what Khwartz was talking about!... I could not get why he was talking about dividing

I was not using / to divide but to separate amps and hours. Is it not an abbreviation for per

Thanks Poit for pointing this out

Luc

#### Khwartz

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##### Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #146 on: September 22, 2013, 09:20:55 AM »
Yeh, the correct typing would be mathematically "amps.hours" (abreged amps * hours, or amps times hours) because as you noticed yourself we obtain it by multiplying the duration by the current draw. This gives the "charge" equivalent through a ratio to coulombs. And multiply again by the voltage, we get the energy.

But in english it used to be written "amps-hours".

That why I said there was a confusion while using "/" which indeed means dividing as is maths than in physics

But, contrarely I said at my last post: A/h means nothing at all of special in physics.

Cheers.

#### gotoluc

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##### Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #147 on: September 22, 2013, 06:59:14 PM »
Okay, from now on I'll write A/h and not amps/hour to describe a battery bank Amps capacity for one hour.

Thanks for bringing this to my attention

Luc

#### Khwartz

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##### Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #148 on: September 23, 2013, 01:34:46 AM »
Well, looks for example at Wiki: it is "Ah" (or A.h if you want); for the very same reasons but you'te welcome Luc

#### hanon

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• Posts: 615
##### Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #149 on: August 12, 2014, 12:52:59 AM »
Hi Gotoluc and all,

I think that this same idea is what Clemente Figuera used in his overunity generator according to his patent http://www.alpoma.com/figuera/patente_1908.pdf .

Instead of a motor he built a generator with two lateral electromagnets. He fed them with two unphased waves (!!): when the first signal was at maximun the other was at minimun, and then  steadily he moved the fields until reaching minimun in the first and maximun intensity in the second. Figuera never stated clearly the pole orientation, but after watching your device I am quite sure that he used like poles facing each other. Figuera called the magnets as N rectangle and S rectangle, but maybe he was hidding the real pole orientation.

I hope this helps to share some ideas between both concepts