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Author Topic: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power  (Read 194281 times)

Offline tim123

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #120 on: July 26, 2013, 11:19:34 AM »
Hi gyulasun - you're right, neos are according to Wikipedia >1 Tesla. I've been using the magnet calculator here: http://www.kjmagnetics.com/calculator.asp - which says an N52 has a field of 6619 Gauss - i.e. about .66T. I'm not sure how to reconcile that difference TBH so I was working on the assumption that the folks who were making the magnets were probably right - and to assume the lower field.

Electric Steel - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_steel

Assuming the neos were 1.5T - it's still no more than electric steel - and the cost of the big magnets you'd need would be high. Agreed that eddy currents are a problem in steel - and laminations are always desirable - but maybe not necessary if the design is OU enough.

I have been looking at the following arrangements for a 'Magnet Piston' type engine - where the coil is the stator - i.e. fixed, and the magnets / core moves. Input is pulsed DC.

 Case 1) A single plain steel armature - as in a typical solenoid.

 Case 2) 2 opposing magnets on a non-magnetic shaft - both situated within the core of the coil (at the extremes of stroke the opposing magnet would just appear out of the end of the 'cylinder', while the attacting magnet is pulled to the center, of course)
In this case - there's no steel at all - just the magnets. It's a good arrangement.

 Case 3) As 2, but with a fixed central steel core, perhaps 1/5th the total length of the coil - to provide a fixed central magnet for both the moving magnets to act upon. (The stroke length is reduced...). This is an excellent arrangement - as the magnets act on the B-field of the central core, and the H-field of the coil too. My design uses no permanent magnets, so is a 2-stroke.

I've calculated power at 1000RPM for each of the above. Obviously my calcs could be totally wrong, but I'd be happy to go thru them with you guys... One problem is that I don't believe how little power it takes to fully saturate steel:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturation_(magnetic)
...says 100 Amp Turns per inch is more than enough (and diameter doesnt seem to matter!). So for my 8" coil below - I should only need 800 Amp Turns, not 8,000. In which case the coil can be made much thinner... I've been trying to err on the side of caution.

Given 50w input into coil: Length 200mm, InsideDiam 100mm, OutsideDiam 300mm, 3mm copper, 2178 Turns, 3.23 Ohms (3.9A, 12.7V) -> 8500 Amp Turns, 42830 AmpTurns/meter (Total mass of coil is 85Kg!)

 Case 1: Solenoid) Output power = 1,300 Watts
 Case 2: 2 Magnets = not calculated, as i've recoded and dropped this calc... Tended to be about 2-3 x case 1 with 1.5T magnets
 Case 3: 10,800 Watts (14.6Hp)

I've been looking at using aluminium for the coil - to cut weight. The 'attacting' magnet / armature would be a steel cylinder. The 'repelling' armature would be a smaller steel cylinder wrapped with a coil. Connected via a non-magnetic shaft through a hole in the central core, and to an external crank.

So, if I could get case 3 running at 5,000 rpm it should give 70Hp approx, which is enough to run a motorbike - off a standard 12v battery...

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Offline tim123

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #121 on: July 26, 2013, 11:56:41 AM »
Actually, the design I have for Case 3 did include the possibility of having permanent magnets attached to the 2 halves of the piston, on the face outside of the coil - to provide better response at low power by pre-magnetising the steel. They wouldn't be the main source of field though - that would be the steel itself... Cost of manufacture, and availability of materials is a major concern. You can make big steel pistons almost any size, but the biggest neos I can buy are just 3" diameter - and expensive too.

Offline tim123

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #122 on: July 26, 2013, 01:39:47 PM »
I've started a new thread about my 'Case 3' magnet piston engine design. It's here:
http://www.overunity.com/13673/tims-magnet-piston-engine-design/

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #122 on: July 26, 2013, 01:39:47 PM »
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Offline tim123

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #123 on: July 26, 2013, 02:32:50 PM »
I've started another thread called 'Magnetic Field Equations Predict Overunity...' here:
http://www.overunity.com/13674/magnetic-field-equations-predict-overunity/

Which should explain the calcs a bit better...

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #124 on: July 26, 2013, 07:10:15 PM »
Hi gyulasun - you're right, neos are according to Wikipedia >1 Tesla. I've been using the magnet calculator here: http://www.kjmagnetics.com/calculator.asp - which says an N52 has a field of 6619 Gauss - i.e. about .66T. I'm not sure how to reconcile that difference TBH so I was working on the assumption that the folks who were making the magnets were probably right - and to assume the lower field.

Hi Tim,

Yes, I accept that info on Wikipedia may be questionable in some cases, albeit what I quoted was saturation magnetization which goes together with residual flux density, Br  while your example sounds like surface field strength data. If yes then surface field is magnet shape and configuration dependent. For instance in case of magnet type DX08 N52, in free space, the field in the surface center is 5237 G and  at any one of the 4 outer 90° corner edges it is 9417 G.  And I agree, even with 1.5T values it would be in pair with electric steel.  (If inserting this magnet into a closed magnetic circuit, the field can be higher inside the circuit versus that of the free space surface data but you surely know this)

Quote
Electric Steel - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_steel

I think Luc has used laminated core scavenged from microwave owen transformers and the Wiki description sounds like transformer cores are made from electrical steel, so no problem here, just the term electric steel what may have caused some confusion, not mentioning extensively for transformer cores.


Quote
I've calculated power at 1000RPM for each of the above. Obviously my calcs could be totally wrong, but I'd be happy to go thru them with you guys... One problem is that I don't believe how little power it takes to fully saturate steel:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturation_(magnetic)
...says 100 Amp Turns per inch is more than enough (and diameter doesnt seem to matter!). So for my 8" coil below - I should only need 800 Amp Turns, not 8,000. In which case the coil can be made much thinner... I've been trying to err on the side of caution.

Your Case 3 setup looks interesting indeed and later I will try to go through the calculations in your other thread.  Regarding the curves in the Figure http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Magnetization_curves.svg which suggest a low power is needed for saturating steel material: I think such data always refers to toroidal shape cores (i.e. in closed magnetic circuits) made from the different materials to compare or characterize them. In case of an open core like a piston setup I think higher power is needed for bringing the steel into saturation.

rgds, Gyula


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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #124 on: July 26, 2013, 07:10:15 PM »
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Offline tim123

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #125 on: July 27, 2013, 10:04:01 AM »
Hi Luc, I've been trying to figure out what's buildable, and I've added a spec for a prototype here:
http://www.overunity.com/13673/tims-magnet-piston-engine-design/msg366365/#msg366365

It's not too big. It's a bit of a hybrid between yours and my ideas - in that it could use 2 permanent magnets, but it has the fixed central core for added push. It should still be OU enough to prove the concept (about 50-100x ?).

I was also thinking - if the shaft in my design was magnetic - as in yours - it should contribute to the force - as it does in your design. I was thinking it would just interfere with the bearings, but PTFE sliding bearings would be ok.

:-)
Tim

Offline gotoluc

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #126 on: July 27, 2013, 02:46:32 PM »
Thank you Tim, I'll have a look

Luc

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #126 on: July 27, 2013, 02:46:32 PM »
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Offline telecom

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #127 on: September 16, 2013, 04:55:58 PM »
Hi Luc,
was very excited looking at your videos - great work!
Just want to point out that in order to generate 1 w of energy you should be able to lift weight of 10 kg by 1 centimeter at 1 second,
or 1 kg by 1 cm 10 times per second, or 250 grams at 1 cm 40 times per second!
 But generally speaking, in order to achieve this you need a) - much bigger magnets, b) - much smaller travel of the coil.
According to my calculations the magnet ( the source of the energy) should have the pull of about 400 kg, and the travel about
.5 cm. With your setup this doesn't appear to be practical since magnets will be fighting each other (IMHO).



Offline Khwartz

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #128 on: September 17, 2013, 12:46:52 AM »
Hi telecom! Nice to see I am not alone to advise for outpower measurement by weight lifting: kg/s against the gravity; it is for me most undisputable way to demonstrate any O.U. What do you think?
Cheer.

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #128 on: September 17, 2013, 12:46:52 AM »
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Offline telecom

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #129 on: September 17, 2013, 02:03:34 AM »
Yes, this appears to be the simplest way. After all, this is what Watt was using
to determine 1HP - 75kg x M/sec.
In our case, we want the mechanical work of magnet attraction (repulsion) to exceed
wattage of the solenoid. The OU can come from the pumping action by engaging
magnets at certain frequency - the higher, the bigger mechanical output per second.. But still, the magnet should be quite big - 400 kg pull +. Also, the travel should be
quite small, within 1/4 of an inch to optimize the magnetic force, which drops
parabolically with the distance.
What do you think, guys?

Offline Khwartz

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #130 on: September 17, 2013, 07:36:14 AM »
Not sure to very inderstand the principle and the calculations for this kind of device; just be about giving true ideas onhow to demonstrate O.U. so that nobody could contest it.
Good luck for the rest of the quest :)

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #130 on: September 17, 2013, 07:36:14 AM »
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Offline telecom

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #131 on: September 17, 2013, 04:52:33 PM »
This an idea of a test set up for determining if any extra power can be achieved.
The leverage between input and output stages is 1:10.
Solenoid is in blue, and PM in red.
The stroke between the PM and solenoid ~1/4", which makes travel of the output ~2.5. This is where to attach the weight to lift.
If the magnet is not strong enough, to add another one, for a start 3" dia x 2" high.

Offline gotoluc

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #132 on: September 17, 2013, 10:51:54 PM »
Hi Luc,
was very excited looking at your videos - great work!
Just want to point out that in order to generate 1 w of energy you should be able to lift weight of 10 kg by 1 centimeter at 1 second,
or 1 kg by 1 cm 10 times per second, or 250 grams at 1 cm 40 times per second!
 But generally speaking, in order to achieve this you need a) - much bigger magnets, b) - much smaller travel of the coil.
According to my calculations the magnet ( the source of the energy) should have the pull of about 400 kg, and the travel about
.5 cm. With your setup this doesn't appear to be practical since magnets will be fighting each other (IMHO).

Hi telcom,

thanks for your interest and test information.

I have a new (stronger magnet) model that I have tested. I noticed that as I drop the current the pull grams per watts is not linear.

Example:

My new model pulls 520g for 1.2 watts input.  However, if I drop the current it can pull 200g with .3 watts input.

Luc


Offline Khwartz

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #133 on: September 18, 2013, 12:01:16 AM »
Hello gotoluc, thanks for continuing your experiments  :D

Very interesting to know it is not linear :)

When you say: "pulls 520g for 1.2 watts input.  However, if I drop the current it can pull 200g with .3 watts input", it is just ratio of force against electrical power; could tel us in how many th of second it lifts them in each case?

Cheer.

Offline telecom

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Re: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Reply #134 on: September 18, 2013, 12:34:29 AM »
Hi Luc,
this is a big step in the right direction.
If it takes 1 second, than the mechanical equivalent of .3 w X sec (.3 joyles) equals
3 kG x cm, and the efficiency is still below 10 %.
Perhaps you may add few more magnets, or increase number of strokes per second or both?


 

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