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Author Topic: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM  (Read 1197684 times)

Omnibus

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #750 on: December 29, 2009, 04:40:21 PM »
@mondrasek,

I understand what you're saying and that's important but for the later stages. We're still at the point of proving that the coupling betwieen the rotor and the toroids is exclusively magnetic. That is, that the rotor doesn't use any of the input energy. That's a crucial point which needs utmost attention.

Omega_0

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #751 on: December 29, 2009, 04:47:50 PM »
Did some research on core materials:

Relative Permeability chart:
Mild Steel (0.2 C)  2,000
Iron (0.2 impurity)  5,000
Silicon Iron           7,000
Mumetal               100,000
Purified iron (0.05 impurity) 200,000
Supermalloy           1,000,000
MetGlas                1,000,000

It seems, stuff like Metglas should be ideal for this kind of motor. It should need just microamps to saturate, which means one can have bigger cores , bigger magnets (=more output power) and only a few milliamps of input current.

Check the BH curve of Metglas here, its awesome
http://www.metglas.com/products/page5_1_2_6.htm

Here is a useful graph from which one can directly calculate the number of turns needed to saturate a particular core for some value of current:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Magnetization_curves.svg

So, say for steel core, you need 200 turns/inch to saturate it with a current of 0.1 Amp. If you are sending any more current than that, in this case, its not doing anything, just getting wasted as heat.

So the golden rule for input side is - highest permeability , correct number of turns (of as thick wire as possible) and optimal current.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2009, 05:24:43 PM by Omega_0 »

futuristic

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #752 on: December 29, 2009, 05:06:02 PM »
Wiki has also great info on "Magnetic susceptibility and permeability data for selected materials" :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permeability_%28electromagnetism%29#Values_for_some_common_materials

lumen

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #753 on: December 29, 2009, 05:18:36 PM »
Probably need the BH curve of the core material to determine what may work well.
Here is a nice pdf that explains some of the factors and how they could be used.

http://www.walkerscientific.com/Products/Product_Lines/Magnetic_Analysis/Hysteresisgraphs/Initial-4-Quadrant.pdf

I would recommend everyone read this if you don't already know this!

futuristic

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #754 on: December 29, 2009, 05:23:45 PM »
I was thinking... could we use metal housing from an old hard drive to make toroids core.
It shoud have very high permeability to shield drive from outer magnetic fields.

PaulLowrance

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #755 on: December 29, 2009, 05:29:06 PM »
Vid and quote from Larskro
Min. power use 2,9 volts x 50 mAmps = 0,145 watt. Speed 600rpm
I will try to reach zero power or overunity ?? free energy.
The toroid coil have about 300 turns. I have back EMF.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aGPRoHgz8Rw

cat

Nice video and great job!!  I'm jealous that you have the parts to make a Steorn replication.  :)

PaulLowrance

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #756 on: December 29, 2009, 05:31:27 PM »
Did some research on core materials:
[snip]
MetGlas                1,000,000

Ha ha, I already have that MetGlas core. Those cores are amazing! They're noncrystalline and amorphous cores. Just wish I had some ball bearings, rod, and all else that's needed to replicate an eOrbo version.

lumen

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #757 on: December 29, 2009, 06:07:52 PM »
If the key factor of operation is core saturation, then just selecting a material with a very high permeability would also require a strong field to saturate the core.
Would it be better to use a material that saturates just above what the magnets would be applying so that there would not be any loss in attraction but the coil could easily saturate the core?


Groundloop

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #758 on: December 29, 2009, 06:19:17 PM »
@PaulLowrance,

Do you have a used computer fan? Some super glue? Some magnets?

Then you can make a super low friction rotor in no time. Just carefully take
apart the fan, remove the fan blades, glue magnets onto rotor hub, remove
the fan electronic. Now you have a low friction rotor with magnets on.

Groundloop.

Omega_0

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #759 on: December 29, 2009, 06:42:57 PM »
As there are a garden variety of materials, best way to know the saturation point (Hmax) for a material is through manufacturer specs. Here is a good trick to calculate the amp-turns required to saturate a ferrite core.

http://lists.contesting.com/_topband/2004-01/msg00104.html
(So Amp-turns = 0.8 x Hmax x length(cm))

Calculator for converting Oe to Amp/m :
http://www.translatorscafe.com/cafe/units-converter/magnetic-field-strength/calculator/oersted-%5BOe%5D-to-ampere-turn-per-meter-%5BAt/m%5D/


Omega_0

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #760 on: December 29, 2009, 07:02:02 PM »
If the key factor of operation is core saturation, then just selecting a material with a very high permeability would also require a strong field to saturate the core.
Would it be better to use a material that saturates just above what the magnets would be applying so that there would not be any loss in attraction but the coil could easily saturate the core?

lumen, can you explain this more please. Why its better to have less permeability from output point of view ?

I was thinking that the force of attraction is proportional to the pole strengths and area of both pieces. So simply using a stronger and bigger magnet should increase the force. Or am I wrong here ?

Not very close, but should give an idea:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnet#Force_between_two_bar_magnets

mondrasek

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #761 on: December 29, 2009, 07:07:29 PM »
@Omnibus, I agree completely.  I would just like to help those who are struggling to select materials and construction techniques for their set ups to have a concise list of the tradeoffs of each variable so they can choose wisely.  It takes so long to wind the toroid coils.  Choosing the wrong size wire, core material, number of turns, etc. can cause one to be quite far outside of the basic parameters already being learned.  And the recovery time after learning that mistake is long.  Especially if people are ordering the toroid core materials, wire, etc.  It would be best if they had all the information to choose a construction set that is the closest to optimum available with the knowledge gained to date.

Ultimately I believe most builders want to create a self runner.  That might not be what is needed to prove OU, but without it, many will not be satisfied.  Plus, nothing else has the same "wow" factor imho.  So I offer the idea that maximizing rotor torque must be a primary focus, and possibly secondary to minimizing the electrical input.

So much great information has surfaced on how to optimize the electrical control side.  Any more information on how to optimize the "free" energy torque output should be collected too.

Again, optimizing the electrical controll circuit for the wrong goal (such as RPM) can be wasted efforts.  The optimum electrical control circuit must create the maximum rotor torque in order to reach the ultimate goal.  Ignoring rotor torque for the sake of minimizing electrical input alone can be counterproductive.  I just want the electrical motor builders here to keep that in mind.

lumen

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #762 on: December 29, 2009, 07:12:20 PM »
lumen, can you explain this more please. Why its better to have less permeability from output point of view ?

I was thinking that the force of attraction is proportional to the pole strengths and area of both pieces. So simply using a stronger and bigger magnet should increase the force. Or am I wrong here ?

Not very close, but should give an idea:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnet#Force_between_two_bar_magnets

No, you are correct, I was saying that some materials that are rated low permeability, actually have very high initial permability but for a short range on the BH curve.
This may work out better in this case as long as the magnets used do not exceed the materials saturation point and lose some potential attraction.
The advantage is, it will require a smaller electrical input to the coil to saturate the core.

neptune

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #763 on: December 29, 2009, 08:34:59 PM »
Just a few practical hints for winding toroids. Assuming you know how many turns you need . First take a short piece of wire , and wind 10 turns. Unwind it , and measure its length. You now can calculate total wire length needed . Add say 10% to be safe , more if the winding is to be multi layered. Find the middle of the wire . Wind the coil in 2 halves , start at say 6 o'clock and wind through 9 o'clock to 12 o'clock. Start again at 6 , wind through 3 to twelve o'clock . You may find that if the wire is long , a shuttle is useful . Take piece of 10 mm dowel about60 cms long , and cut a slot about 2 cms deep into each end [ like the slot in an arrow. Bind the dowel with thread to stop the slots splitting . wind wire end over end onto the shuttle , and keep threading it thru the toroid like a needle . Unwind wire from shuttle as and when necessary . Hope this helps someone.

captainpecan

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #764 on: December 29, 2009, 08:40:28 PM »
Again, optimizing the electrical controll circuit for the wrong goal (such as RPM) can be wasted efforts.  The optimum electrical control circuit must create the maximum rotor torque in order to reach the ultimate goal.  Ignoring rotor torque for the sake of minimizing electrical input alone can be counterproductive.  I just want the electrical motor builders here to keep that in mind.

I agree totally, it should be kept in mind.  There are a lot of us however that aren't that far yet with our builds.  Me for instance, I just want a rotor that turns without my coils MELTING... lol..  I'm moving forward nicely though.

As for using steel for the core.  Sure the numbers sound good, and my simple tests show it works pretty well, but there may still be some problems not seen yet.  For instance, the whole point of this motor design is to eliminate Lenz Law.  Is the permeability going to be high enough to do this?  We will see.  As far as saturation, yes steel should saturate much easier than ferrite, but to be honest, I'm not so sure we need complete saturation to begin with.  Following everyones results, it seems that all that is required is to disrupt the domains in the core, to break the magnetic attraction.  So we should keep in mind that complete saturation may not truly be the goal here anyway.  I do not think Ossies setup is fully saturating those cores. I could be wrong of course, but I believe he is hitting it with just enough to jumble those domains.  BUT, saturation may be needed if the magnets are strong enough.  Then it would make it possible to keep increasing the free energy attraction, while still using the same input to break the attraction.  It seems the number of turns is by far the most important aspect to cut current so far.  Torque is another story, we will see what happens.