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Author Topic: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM  (Read 1211143 times)

k4zep

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #525 on: December 26, 2009, 08:35:33 PM »
Where's everyone. Maybe everyone's building one of these now, including myself.  :)   The only difference is that I'll include a measurement to see if there's bemf >when there is current in the toroid coil!<  To say there's no bemf when there's no current is meaningless, which is what I've been trying to tell everyone far before MH even said anything. Someone in another Steorn thread said that MH is getting the credit, lol.

So IMO the excess energy would be due to magnetic viscosity, so don't think this task will be easy. Congrats to Steorn on an awesome achievement!!! And congrats to Ben & J.L.Naudin on a great first build.

Hi Paul,

Still kicking around here.  Helping wife, and learning a lot from JLN's motor......Wow.  I understand what you are saying about current in the coil or no bemf.  Both in a motor and generator but remember again the old adage about the chicken and the egg.  Remember the old E before I and I before E in an inductor and Cap?  We are all looking at the same motor through our eyes of experience and the final result is the same.  Your right in there paddling with the rest of us.  I apologize that I haven't been over to the other site yet.....Can only keyboard so much.......and I have to build a new motor too.  Got all the info I can out of my tin can motor.

Respectfully
Ben

hartiberlin

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #526 on: December 26, 2009, 09:05:46 PM »
Hi All,

I must apologize...

I am getting old, it seems:
After 2 hours of calculations and trying to drive my brain mad,
I came to the conclusion, that I was posting something wrong earlier,
when I said, one could extract about 90 % of the inputed coil energy.

Now after recalculation I came to the conclusion that I was wrong and
mixed something up.

The numbers are a bit lower.

If you have a RL series circuit and put an constant voltage pulse in it
with a varying time:

Vsupply x i(t) x t = Input Energy
where
Vsuppy is the constant voltage
i(t) is the current through the RL series circuit
and
t= switch-On time interval
tau= L/R timeconstant

you can calculate the input energy for the time t.

Now input energy for this time interval is defined as:
Vsupply^2 / Rcoil x ( 1 - (e ^-(t/tau)) ) x t

This is the total energy drawn during t from the constant voltage
power suppy.

Now we can compare this with the energy stored inside the coil
which is Wcoil=0.5 x L x i^2

We will find the coil current after the time interval t with the formular:

i(t)= Vsupply / R coil x ( 1 - (e^-(t/tau)) )

So if you calculate i(t) after the time interval and put it into
Wcoil=0.5 x L x i^2

you will know the stored energy inside the coil and then
you can divide this value through the input energy
value:
Vsupply^2 / Rcoil x ( 1 - (e ^-(t/tau)) ) x t

As the results you get:
if you choose:
at
t= 1/10 tau you store 47 % of the energy input into the coil
t= 1/5 tau you store 45 % of the energy input into the coil
t= tau you store 31 % of the energy input into the coil
t= 5 tau you store 15 % of the energy input into the coil


So you see, at 1/10 tau Ontime you can only recover less than
47 % of the input energy back into a capacitor.

So it was not 90 % but only less than 47 %.

But still this is a way to avoid too many losses
to just switch on only  way less than tau and
use a high supply voltage so the saturation current level
is already reached during this short ontime interval.

Regards, Stefan.

k4zep

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #527 on: December 26, 2009, 09:27:19 PM »
Hi All,

I must apologize...

I am getting old, it seems:
After 2 hours of calculations and trying to drive my brain mad,
I came to the conclusion, that I was posting something wrong earlier,
when I said, one could extract about 90 % of the inputed coil energy.

Now after recalculation I came to the conclusion that I was wrong and
mixed something up.

The numbers are a bit lower.

If you have a RL series circuit and put an constant voltage pulse in it
with a varying time:

Vsupply x i(t) x t = Input Energy
where
Vsuppy is the constant voltage
i(t) is the current through the RL series circuit
and
t= switch-On time interval
tau= L/R timeconstant

you can calculate the input energy for the time t.

Now input energy for this time interval is defined as:
Vsupply^2 / Rcoil x ( 1 - (e ^-(t/tau)) ) x t

This is the total energy drawn during t from the constant voltage
power suppy.

Now we can compare this with the energy stored inside the coil
which is Wcoil=0.5 x L x i^2

We will find the coil current after the time interval t with the formular:

i(t)= Vsupply / R coil x ( 1 - (e^-(t/tau)) )

So if you calculate i(t) after the time interval and put it into
Wcoil=0.5 x L x i^2

you will know the stored energy inside the coil and then
you can divide this value through the input energy
value:
Vsupply^2 / Rcoil x ( 1 - (e ^-(t/tau)) ) x t

As the results you get:
if you choose:
at
t= 1/10 tau you store 47 % of the energy input into the coil
t= 1/5 tau you store 45 % of the energy input into the coil
t= tau you store 31 % of the energy input into the coil
t= 5 tau you store 15 % of the energy input into the coil


So you see, at 1/10 tau Ontime you can only recover less than
47 % of the input energy back into a capacitor.

So it was not 90 % but only less than 47 %.

But still this is a way to avoid too many losses
to just switch on only  way less than tau and
use a high supply voltage so the saturation current level
is already reached during this short ontime interval.

Regards, Stefan.

Nah, when you really want to believe, numbers are always high.  The 47% sounds very good and in the box!  So we need a COP at least 2 to break even and probably 3+++ to overcome charging efficiency.  Damn good work!!!!  Keep an eye on JLN.  When he gets going, he gets going!!!!!

Ben

PaulLowrance

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #528 on: December 26, 2009, 10:55:06 PM »
Hi Ben & all,

I just built a test unit, nothing as complete as yours Ben coz I don't have the parts here, but so far I can't get the darn FEMM results, lol! When current is applied to the toroid, the secondary AC voltage goes down.

Even stranger yet, I could swear the darn thing is getting cold. Within about 15 minutes I'll post some photos. This setup is only to analyze the effect, not to get it self-running. So the magnets are on a dremel rotary motor. The entire dremel gets warm, which conducts to the magnets, but if I center the magnets it sure seems like they cool down. To give an idea, the ambient temperature from the thermal gun at the time during these measurements was ~ 67.2F, and if the magnets are not centered (or at least they didn't seem centered to me) then I recall them being ~ 71.2F, but after trying to center the magnets I've seen them get as low as 66.6F. It's not always easy to get a good thermal gun reading while one hand is trying to balance a dremel drill and other hand is trying to take a temperature reading, so who knows if there's something to this. Probably not, but conventional physics says the magnets cannot get colder than ambient temperature. Thermal gun measurements need to be consistent since it depends on the material you're pointing at, as some materials have lower thermal emissivity than others.

Has anyone noticed this cooling effect?
 

PaulLowrance

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #529 on: December 26, 2009, 11:10:09 PM »
Here's a few snap shots. Now I'll go mount the dremel so I can focus on taking temperature measurements. To be honest, temperature was the last thing on my mind, but I kept noticing how cold the was, so I ran to get my thermal gun.


Groundloop

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #530 on: December 26, 2009, 11:15:55 PM »
@k4zep,

I saw in your video that you have the toroid facing flat to the magnets. In the Steorn
motor the toroid was facing the magnets with the hole. In your setup the magnets
can induce current in the coil because some part of the coil is being crossed by
the magnets at 90 degrees angle. In the Steorn motor the magnets can not induce
current in the coils because the magnets did not cross the wires at 90 degrees angle.
Naduin got it right and put the toroid as in Steorns motor. Any comments to this?

Groundloop.

PaulLowrance

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #531 on: December 26, 2009, 11:17:14 PM »
Here's a photo of the toroid.

As far as the magnets, there are 4 NdFeB. There are two on each side, one facing north and the other facing south.

broli

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #532 on: December 26, 2009, 11:39:04 PM »
@k4zep,

I saw in your video that you have the toroid facing flat to the magnets. In the Steorn
motor the toroid was facing the magnets with the hole. In your setup the magnets
can induce current in the coil because some part of the coil is being crossed by
the magnets at 90 degrees angle. In the Steorn motor the magnets can not induce
current in the coils because the magnets did not cross the wires at 90 degrees angle.
Naduin got it right and put the toroid as in Steorns motor. Any comments to this?

Groundloop.

I think Steorn is making it look like that orientation can vary. Because indeed it would seem like the demo floor units have "standing" toroids:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/79138147@N00/4207191067/sizes/l/in/set-72157622929469887/

while the video demo unit has "laying" toroids:

http://www.youtube.com/user/SteornOfficial#p/u/0/S5nae_I_Mus

One may or may not have an advantage over the other.

PaulLowrance

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #533 on: December 26, 2009, 11:43:46 PM »
Holy cr-ap! I have to somehow get my video camera footage up to youtube. This is still inconclusive, but the entire setup had been sitting unused for ~ 1/2 hour, I mounted the dremel mouter and the non-contact thermal gun, then turned on the dremel motor and the temperature began dropping right before my eyes.

Wait till you see the video.

Groundloop

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #534 on: December 26, 2009, 11:44:15 PM »
@broli,

Yes, you are right, thank you.

I will try "standing" toroid because then no magnetic field can cross my wires.

Groundloop.


PaulLowrance

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #536 on: December 27, 2009, 12:24:14 AM »
Here's the video footage of the temperature dropping. It goes far below ambient temperature. Please read the youtube video description for further details,
 
 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e47jMCRecMY
 
 

Groundloop

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #537 on: December 27, 2009, 12:40:36 AM »
All,

Anybody know if the magnets are all the same polarity facing out?

Groundloop.

PaulLowrance

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #538 on: December 27, 2009, 12:44:14 AM »
The attached image is how I have the magnets connected.

PaulLowrance

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #539 on: December 27, 2009, 12:48:10 AM »
The youtube video description was just updated -->

Quote
The setup consist of a toroid with coil winding and a dremel motor. On the end of the dremel is a round piece that allowed me to attached 4 NdFeB magnets, two on each side (180 degrees apart). If we look at one side (two magnets) we'll see one magnet that is facing us is south and the other magnet is north. The toroid coil is not loaded and there's no current flowing through the coil.

A bunch of people at overunity dot com have been discussing how the Steorn eOrbo might be working, and I've been doing similar magnetic simulations in FEMM for years. So I decided to slap together a quick experiment to see if I saw a particular effect. While running the machine, I kept noticing how cold it appeared, but thought that was due to air circulation. So I grabbed the non-contact IR gun and to my surprise the machine was colder than ambient temperature. So I mounted everything, the dremel motor, the IR gun, and took this footage.

The ambient temperature is over 67F. The dremel had been running for while earlier, but the dremel and everything was resting unused for ~ 1/2 hour prior to taking this video. So IMO the temperature of the dremel was not that high during this footage.

The wires connected to the toroid are connect to a volt meter, the oscilloscope, and a power supply, all of which were off during this footage.

One thing that seems odd is that the dremel rpm will suddenly change by a lot. I've used this dremel a lot, and it never varies like by itself. It seems the load or magnetic viscosity in the toroid is greatly varying.

This is inconclusive, as I need to be certain. It's just too good to be true. If I find out anything new I'll post another video. Thanks for any positive feedback.