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Author Topic: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM  (Read 1197903 times)

hartiberlin

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #495 on: December 26, 2009, 02:51:02 PM »
Hi Ben,
could you please post the value of the ohmical resistance of your coil
(just measure via a multimeter with the OHM settings)
and a zoomed in scope shot of the input current into your coil,
where one can see the rising current waveform from zero amps to just the
maximum input current over maybe 8 divs in the horizontal direction
and please state milliseconds/div.


Then we can calculate the L of your coil
and also the tau timeconstant and can optimize the supply voltage and Ontime
for maximum BackEMF power recovery.

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.


hartiberlin

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #496 on: December 26, 2009, 03:00:13 PM »
Hi Ben,
was the first picture DSC04415.JPG of your
posting in:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8411.msg217358#msg217358
the timebase set to 5 millisec/div or was it set to 5 microseconds/div ?

If it was set to
5 millisec/div
the tau=L/R is about 0.5 millisec,
so if we would know the ohmical resistance of the coil,
we could calculate L= tau/R

Then you need to use a much higher DC supply voltage to only
switch on for about 0.1 Milliseconds( 1/5th tau) to  reach the same input current
level as you used now after about 2 Milliseconds.

hartiberlin

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #497 on: December 26, 2009, 03:32:24 PM »
Okay Ben,
let´s calculate some more:

From:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8411.msg217358#msg217358

I can see, that you used a 10:1 divider scope head, as the
voltage in the upper trace is about 8.5 milliVolts at a 0.1 Ohm shunt
maximal input current amplitude pulse.

So it was 12.4 Volts DC input at maximum 0.85 amps then,
that gives a DC resistance of about 14.5 Ohms for the coil.

Could you please verify this with a multimeter ?
Many thanks.

As tau=L/R is the time the waveform reaches about 63 % of the maximum amplitude
it is about 0.5 Milliseconds in your scope shot. ( a higher horizontal res scope shot would help)

So we can calculate now L of your toroidal coil:

L= tau/R= 0.0005 sec / 14.5 Ohms = about 34 microHenries

So now we can calculate what amount the coil L can store maximum
of magnetic field energy when it is energized by
0.85 amps in your example:

W= 0.5 x L x I^2

So we have 0.5 x 0.000034 H x (0.85 amps)^2= 12.3 microWattsseconds

So you see the coil has much too low Henries to store enough energy
for better BackEMF recovery.

Would be good, if the coil would at least have a few hundred MilliHenries.

Regards, Stefan.

hartiberlin

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #498 on: December 26, 2009, 04:09:35 PM »
Okay, now we can calculate, what the supply voltage would need
to be, if we want to have the current level of 0.85 amps already
at 0.1 milliseconds.

As the current waveform function i(t) is:

i(t)= Vsupply / Rcoil x ( 1 - (e ^t/tau) )

we can solve this for Vsupply( supply voltage)

so we can rewrite this as:

with i(t)= 0.85 amps
with    t= 0.1 millisec
with tau= 0.5 millisec

Vsupply= 0.85 amps x 14.5 ohms / 0.18127 = about 68 Volts

So Ben,
if you would raise your Supply Voltage to 68 Volts and switch on your toroidal coil
just for 0.1 Milliseconds ,
you could extract about 90 % of your inputed power back
into your cap.

Regards, Stefan.

k4zep

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #499 on: December 26, 2009, 04:22:45 PM »
Hi Ben,
could you please post the value of the ohmical resistance of your coil
(just measure via a multimeter with the OHM settings)
and a zoomed in scope shot of the input current into your coil,
where one can see the rising current waveform from zero amps to just the
maximum input current over maybe 8 divs in the horizontal direction
and please state milliseconds/div.


Then we can calculate the L of your coil
and also the tau timeconstant and can optimize the supply voltage and Ontime
for maximum BackEMF power recovery.

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.
Hi Stefan,

From orginal measurements when building coil, each segment is 3.15 ohms for a total of 12.6 ohms series resistance , Each coil is 567 uH as wound and when is wired as shown has a residue of 16 uH inductance.  I did not try to balance coils by trimming windings.

Have found by experimentation that coil can run very close to magnets and while it cogs like heck, with power it runs like heck.  Also I put Hall Effect directly between coil and passing magnet for precise trigger on that individual magnet/core interface.  Runs about 800 rpm now @ 3.15 watts @ 12.6 VDC.  Mechanical limitations of my simple rotor are starting to be a problem.  Need to build a new motor. I need to add a pulse modulator where I get the same width pulse for each magnet and have the ability to narrow the width down for optimization but that is further down the track. Possibly an optical pulse interface would be more advantageous later on down the road.   It is obvious with correct number of coils, interfaced on the face of the toroid and not the side that a much more powerful motor could be built and at much lower power input.

Respectfully,
Ben
 

k4zep

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #500 on: December 26, 2009, 04:24:05 PM »
Hi Ben,
was the first picture DSC04415.JPG of your
posting in:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8411.msg217358#msg217358
the timebase set to 5 millisec/div or was it set to 5 microseconds/div ?

If it was set to
5 millisec/div
the tau=L/R is about 0.5 millisec,
so if we would know the ohmical resistance of the coil,
we could calculate L= tau/R

Then you need to use a much higher DC supply voltage to only
switch on for about 0.1 Milliseconds( 1/5th tau) to  reach the same input current
level as you used now after about 2 Milliseconds.
I simply don't remember, if VERY important, could do it again.  I didn't take notes.

k4zep

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #501 on: December 26, 2009, 04:37:02 PM »
Okay Ben,
let´s calculate some more:

From:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8411.msg217358#msg217358

I can see, that you used a 10:1 divider scope head, as the
voltage in the upper trace is about 8.5 milliVolts at a 0.1 Ohm shunt
maximal input current amplitude pulse.

So it was 12.4 Volts DC input at maximum 0.85 amps then,
that gives a DC resistance of about 14.5 Ohms for the coil.

Could you please verify this with a multimeter ?Current resistor not percision but marked .1 ohm,  Coil is 12.6 ohms  on my good FLUKE.
Many thanks.

As tau=L/R is the time the waveform reaches about 63 % of the maximum amplitude
it is about 0.5 Milliseconds in your scope shot. ( a higher horizontal res scope shot would help)

Actual measured rist time @ 100% is 62.5 uS, very darn fast as HXFET is VERY FAST and inductance very low.

So we can calculate now L of your toroidal coil:

L= tau/R= 0.0005 sec / 14.5 Ohms = about 34 microHenries

So now we can calculate what amount the coil L can store maximum
of magnetic field energy when it is energized by
0.85 amps in your example:

W= 0.5 x L x I^2

So we have 0.5 x 0.000034 H x (0.85 amps)^2= 12.3 microWattsseconds

So you see the coil has much too low Henries to store enough energy
for better BackEMF recovery.

Would be good, if the coil would at least have a few hundred MilliHenries.  You have changed gears here and back to regenerator stuff.  We do not want any apparent inductance to get ideal suupressiosn of back emf or inductive kickback.  Funny thing in a bifilar coil there is a kickback from that strange windings .

Regards, Stefan.
[/quote/


PaulLowrance

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #502 on: December 26, 2009, 05:01:16 PM »
I'm very open minded about Steorn having the smoking gun, but the people who keep saying there's not bemf are wrong, and I've already explained it. Again, you cannot do the bemf tests without any current in toroid coil. The toroid coil *must* have current going through it if you want to see the bemf. Many pages back in this thread I told Ben how to measure this, and how it's working, but it seems this was ignored.

IMO the excess energy effect, if any, is in the magnetic viscosity.

Enjoy

broli

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #503 on: December 26, 2009, 05:10:50 PM »
I'm very open minded about Steorn having the smoking gun, but the people who keep saying there's not bemf are wrong, and I've already explained it. Again, you cannot do the bemf tests without any current in toroid coil. The toroid coil *must* have current going through it if you want to see the bemf. Many pages back in this thread I told Ben how to measure this, and how it's working, but it seems this was ignored.

IMO the excess energy effect, if any, is in the magnetic viscosity.

Enjoy

I hope you accept the superposition principle. Basically in this case it means the induced voltage will just add up with any other wave regardless of it's nature. If it was a constant value it would add up and show the sum of the two, but it would act the same if the initial wave was at 0 volts. So whether current is applied or not during the induced moment the result should be the same.

People have been overlooking something else with the Orbo though, I'm sure MH will notice it since he's so smart. I have some very good reasons to believe this motor is mechanical overunity not electrical. But not wasting the electrical energy by recovering it is a bonus and should defently not be ignored.

k4zep

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #504 on: December 26, 2009, 05:16:57 PM »
I'm very open minded about Steorn having the smoking gun, but the people who keep saying there's not bemf are wrong, and I've already explained it. Again, you cannot do the bemf tests without any current in toroid coil. The toroid coil *must* have current going through it if you want to see the bemf. Many pages back in this thread I told Ben how to measure this, and how it's working, but it seems this was ignored.

IMO the excess energy effect, if any, is in the magnetic viscosity.

Enjoy
Hi Paul,

I remember the post and accepted it as a theory.  Also the theory of magnetic viscosity is not mentioned in nominal magnetic writings.
Would you like to elaborate on the magnetic viscosity theory?  All ideas at this point are considered and appreciated.

Respectfully.
Ben

k4zep

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #505 on: December 26, 2009, 05:29:18 PM »
To All,

Once a theory is expressed.  Talking about it is useless unless you  build a device to demonstrate it.  I have thousands of "theories" but 90% of the theories I have tried never worked (usually because my knowledge base is incomplete or mis-understood by myself as I have eaten crow so often that I have acquired a taste for it!), ever so often when you build something you have that eureka moment and that makes it worth while.  So.......all good ideas and theories accepted on face value but based on my and I'm sure each person on the list personal set of filters mentally we will accept it or reject it.  That does NOT mean it is good or bad, just how each individual see's it.  Example....THEORY.......

It is purposed that the Steorm motor is where the OU is developed.  I feel that theory is probably correct.  Others may not feel the same but until we build a device that conclusively proves either/or, it is just a theory and not a working fact. Please don't get upset if I don't jump up and down, say hooray, what a great theory, just give your theory, then build a working model of theory and we can all jump on the bandwagen at the same time!!!!!   I will become very cross and irritated if the a theory is repeated again and again....That won't make it work.  A working model is where the rubber meets the road.

I remain.....
Respectfully,
Ben


Omnibus

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #506 on: December 26, 2009, 05:30:33 PM »
I'm very open minded about Steorn having the smoking gun, but the people who keep saying there's not bemf are wrong, and I've already explained it. Again, you cannot do the bemf tests without any current in toroid coil. The toroid coil *must* have current going through it if you want to see the bemf. Many pages back in this thread I told Ben how to measure this, and how it's working, but it seems this was ignored.

That's correct. I've emphasized it too here and in another forum.

PaulLowrance

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #507 on: December 26, 2009, 05:31:35 PM »
It might be mechanical if you consider magnetic viscosity part of the mechanical aspect. I believe Steorn's first demo long ago was purely mechanical (no coils & batteries), but Steorn claims that motor was self-running even though they had problems with the bearings supposedly because of sharp sudden jolting movements.

This new design of Steorn is also probably driven by magnetic viscosity in terms of excess energy.

How the permeability motor works:
The magnet approaches the toroid, and magnetizes it. The effective permeability at this point is low. The toroid turns on during this low permeability stage. The magnets then move away thus increasing the effective permeability, and the toroid coil then turns off, but the effective permeability is higher than when they turned on. That is how the electrical energy is converted into mechanical energy, because of the change in permeability. That's why long ago in this thread I called it a permeability motor and requested Ben to do the experiment so you people could how it's working.

That's not to say Steorn's motor is not producing excess energy. We'll have to see, and I'm hopeful, but it's far far far more complex than what's being said here. The bemf is there when the current is on, and it requires current to make the motor spin. This motor does have bemf.

lumen

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #508 on: December 26, 2009, 05:33:04 PM »
I'm very open minded about Steorn having the smoking gun, but the people who keep saying there's not bemf are wrong, and I've already explained it. Again, you cannot do the bemf tests without any current in toroid coil. The toroid coil *must* have current going through it if you want to see the bemf. Many pages back in this thread I told Ben how to measure this, and how it's working, but it seems this was ignored.

IMO the excess energy effect, if any, is in the magnetic viscosity.

Enjoy

But isn't this the exact time the current is flowing, when the rotor magnets are leaving the coil?

I think the OU does not occur in the Steorn demonstration, only the effect of no BEMF.

The real OU has to do with the orientation of the toroid coil and the rotor magnets setup like in the operating display.
The core material is also very important!

If this effect is indeed real, the most power would then be produced in a MEG device where everything could be controlled more efficiently.


 

PaulLowrance

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #509 on: December 26, 2009, 05:33:37 PM »
Hi Paul,

I remember the post and accepted it as a theory.  Also the theory of magnetic viscosity is not mentioned in nominal magnetic writings.
Would you like to elaborate on the magnetic viscosity theory?  All ideas at this point are considered and appreciated.

Respectfully.
Ben

How I explained this permeability motor is not my theory. It's conventional physics and is easily seen in FEMM. As far as magnetic viscosity, I already gave you link to my wikipedia user page. You probably forgot because I mentioned that it's my old magnetic research and would probably bore you.

Again, for anyone only reading this post without reading my other posts, I *am* saying there's a good chance the eOrbo obtains excess energy, but it's more complex than what's being said in this thread.