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Author Topic: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM  (Read 1211986 times)

k4zep

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #420 on: December 25, 2009, 01:43:10 PM »
Quote from: interestedinou on December 25, 2009, 06:48:42 AM
It's probably the reed switches failing.

I agree.  Must be solid state for long term run.  There are so many variables here and with no circuit posted on the recovery methods, who knows.  Then too, maybe not enough excess power to run electronics package.
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interestedinou

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #421 on: December 25, 2009, 02:15:59 PM »
Quote from: k4zep on December 25, 2009, 01:43:10 PM
I agree.  Must be solid state for long term run.  There are so many variables here and with no circuit posted on the recovery methods, who knows.  Then too, maybe not enough excess power to run electronics package.

There is supposed to be a series of additional talks/experiments in January so perhaps we will learn more then.

By the way, I sincerely apologize for repeating myself about this. But could you explain to me that circuit you mentioned earlier that uses diodes/bridge rectifier to put flyback current back into the battery? I'm just really eager to learn how this can be done. I am planning on building a pulse motor and want to use the concept. I've read about the Bedini motors and how they charge a seperate battery, but that does not sound too interesting to me. I want to know how to charge the same battery I'm using (if it turns out to be OU or not).
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gravityblock

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #422 on: December 25, 2009, 02:34:59 PM »
Quote from: interestedinou on December 25, 2009, 04:12:58 AM
Can anyone please tell us if the current is flowing in the right direction in diagram in that post?

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8411.msg216551#msg216551

I really need to know.

Yes, the current appears to be flowing in the right direction.  The inductor wants to keep current flowing, this is basic circuit laws.  I don't think the simulation is lying to us.


GB
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interestedinou

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #423 on: December 25, 2009, 02:40:26 PM »
Quote from: gravityblock on December 25, 2009, 02:34:59 PM
I'm really surprised this question isn't being answered here.   :o

Yes, the current appears to be flowing in the right direction.  The inductor wants to keep current flowing, this is basic circuit laws.  I don't think the simulation is lying to us.


GB

The problem I see is that before and after the switches are opened the current is flowing in the same direction across the inductor.

My understanding of flyback from a collapsing magnetic field is that it produces a current moving in the opposite direction that created it.
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gravityblock

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #424 on: December 25, 2009, 02:49:53 PM »
Quote from: interestedinou on December 25, 2009, 02:40:26 PM
The problem I see is that before and after the switches are opened the current is flowing in the same direction across the inductor.

My understanding of flyback from a collapsing magnetic field is that it produces a current moving in the opposite direction that created it.

Like I said, the inductor wants to keep current flowing.

GB
« Last Edit: December 25, 2009, 03:15:30 PM by gravityblock »
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broli

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #425 on: December 25, 2009, 03:02:23 PM »
You shouldn't get to hung on the term fly"back". Think of it as the inductor wanting to keep the momentum of the current going. When the voltage source is removed or flipped the inductor produces a voltage to maintain current flow. In AC this results in a phase shift and 0 energy dissipation (perfect inductor). In DC this results in energy being dumped back into the source in a perfect linear fashion (again for perfect inductors).
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k4zep

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #426 on: December 25, 2009, 03:08:11 PM »
Quote from: interestedinou on December 25, 2009, 02:15:59 PM
There is supposed to be a series of additional talks/experiments in January so perhaps we will learn more then.

By the way, I sincerely apologize for repeating myself about this. But could you explain to me that circuit you mentioned earlier that uses diodes/bridge rectifier to put flyback current back into the battery? I'm just really eager to learn how this can be done. I am planning on building a pulse motor and want to use the concept. I've read about the Bedini motors and how they charge a seperate battery, but that does not sound too interesting to me. I want to know how to charge the same battery I'm using (if it turns out to be OU or not).

Hi IOU,

Hang loose on the battery charging circuit.  I want to be sure before I post anything on that.  I know how the Bedini works as have built lots of them but this is a different turkey  Just for thought, a separate coil for isolation and then a FAST high peak current FWBR offset for battery switching voltage ought to work but time will tell.  I'm not ignoring your question, just want to be sure.  Working on video of voltage and current, can only do so much so fast and I am NOT a video edit type person.......arrggghhh.

Respectfully
Ben
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k4zep

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #427 on: December 25, 2009, 03:14:27 PM »
Quote from: broli on December 25, 2009, 03:02:23 PM
You shouldn't get to hung on the term fly"back". Think of it as the inductor wanting to keep the momentum of the current going. When the voltage source is removed or flipped the inductor produces a voltage to maintain current flow. In AC this results in a phase shift and 0 energy dissipation (perfect inductor). In DC this results in energy being dumped back into the source in a perfect linear fashion (again for perfect inductors).

I agree, looking at the Inductive kickback EMF pulse, while voltage is very high under no clamp or load suitation, when loaded into a diode across coil (which adds to motor power as it is bi-directional as far as voltage/current is concerned) the area under that waveform is just a small precentage of the waveform driving the rotor, hence it is NOT the source of OU in this motor/generator!  Remember that in this motor, inductance is virtually cancled out so you do NOT have the large BEMF pulse you normally see...That is part of the genius of this motor.

Respectfully
Ben
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exnihiloest

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #428 on: December 25, 2009, 04:01:00 PM »
Quote from: k4zep on December 25, 2009, 03:14:27 PM
...
Remember that in this motor, inductance is virtually cancled out so you do NOT have the large BEMF pulse you normally see...That is part of the genius of this motor.
...

BEMF is easily recoverabe, it is done every day in conventional electronics devices. To recover BEMF is not related in any way with overunity.

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broli

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #429 on: December 25, 2009, 04:18:05 PM »
Quote from: exnihiloest on December 25, 2009, 04:01:00 PM
BEMF is easily recoverabe, it is done every day in conventional electronics devices. To recover BEMF is not related in any way with overunity.

Sure it isn't since you have tried every possible arrangement conceivable to mankind or any alien race to absolutely prove this, right? I'm sure Tesla was a blockhead using simple inductive and capacitance laws to do things 1 million EE's combined can't do today.

I don't want to touch too much on this subject since that's not what Steorn is mainly focusing on. The recovery process discussed here was solely for the purpose of recovering the inductive energy whether it's lower or higher than input is irrelevant so far. But Steorn made a small side note that it's in fact higher. This thread has some good momentum behind it with already decent experimentation beginning. I will politely ask you to either contribute to encourage positive progress or not disturb the progress with your short sighted believes. Thank you for your understanding.
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lumen

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #430 on: December 25, 2009, 04:20:13 PM »
Sorry guys, I have to disagree on the fly-back.
If you ground one end of a coil, then apply a current to the other end, when the current is removed the collapsing field will cause the current to flow the opposite direction of the applied current.

Anytime a current flows, a field is generated that opposes the current direction. When the current stops, the field that was opposing the current direction still exists, so the current flows backward until the field has fully collapsed.

Make sense?
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gravityblock

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #431 on: December 25, 2009, 04:24:02 PM »
Quote from: exnihiloest on December 25, 2009, 04:01:00 PM
BEMF is easily recoverabe, it is done every day in conventional electronics devices. To recover BEMF is not related in any way with overunity.

In this case, the mechanical gain due to no CEMF is already OU (Lenz violation).  Recovering the BEMF makes it more OU.  This really burns you naysayers to no end.  I love it.

Take care,

GB
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k4zep

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #432 on: December 25, 2009, 04:33:05 PM »
Hi Gang,

Photos of waveform on 12.4 VDC battery supply

First photo JPGxx415:

Bottom trace is voltage across coil, top trace is total system current in .1 ohm resistor.  Hence 12+ V pulse across coil and .8 amps current in coil give or take.   Average power determined by duty cycle of pulse.

Bottom voltage trace is @ 5VDC/div and top current is .5 amp div. inverted trace.  So down is current flow. Remember this is NOT precision measurement!!!!  Note short coil charge up time due to a small amount of inductance not trimmed out in coil.  Also note the integrated voltage at the trailing end of the voltage pulse @ turn off due to diode across coil.

xx416.JPG Below:

Second picture shows same but bottom traceis 20V/div now to show 50v pp giver or take, back emf pulse at turn off with diode across coil removed,  Very fast ringing pulse @ cutoff  but does not show up in current as the diode across coil keeps it in the coil.  Just the current back feeding into diode and circulating around coil.  As you can see, virtually no energy in back emf.  That is the long and short of it.  I could show the current in the coil by putting the .1 ohm resistor in series with diode but haven't bothered.

That's it.

Respectfully
Ben
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broli

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #433 on: December 25, 2009, 04:33:43 PM »
Quote from: lumen on December 25, 2009, 04:20:13 PM
Sorry guys, I have to disagree on the fly-back.
If you ground one end of a coil, then apply a current to the other end, when the current is removed the collapsing field will cause the current to flow the opposite direction of the applied current.

Anytime a current flows, a field is generated that opposes the current direction. When the current stops, the field that was opposing the current direction still exists, so the current flows backward until the field has fully collapsed.

Make sense?

Lumen I suggest you reevaluate your basic electric/electronic understanding. An inductor doesn't instantaneously reverse current and then decay, this would be quite amazing but it doesn't happen in simple circuits. I might understand that the confusion arises with voltages across things, when they reverse and current doesn't and what not. But the most simple view is to see inductor wanting to keep the same current (direction and magnitude going). This is why if you short out a perfect inductor It will maintain current flow with 0 voltage, like super conductors. When you short it out with a resistor it will decay exponentially since a resistor has a varying voltage drop which depends on current. On the other hand when shorted out with a battery it will be a linear ramp to 0 amps since the batteries voltage doesn't change with current flow.
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k4zep

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #434 on: December 25, 2009, 04:53:57 PM »
Quote from: broli on December 25, 2009, 04:33:43 PM
Lumen I suggest you reevaluate your basic electric/electronic understanding. An inductor doesn't instantaneously reverse current and then decay, this would be quite amazing but it doesn't happen in simple circuits. I might understand that the confusion arises with voltages across things, when they reverse and current doesn't and what not. But the most simple view is to see inductor wanting to keep the same current (direction and magnitude going). This is why if you short out a perfect inductor It will maintain current flow with 0 voltage, like super conductors. When you short it out with a resistor it will decay exponentially since a resistor has a varying voltage drop which depends on current. On the other hand when shorted out with a battery it will be a linear ramp to 0 amps since the batteries voltage doesn't change with current flow.

Look at scope shot above and you can see direction of current flow.

Respectfully
Ben
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