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Author Topic: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM  (Read 1198022 times)

callanan

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #405 on: December 25, 2009, 12:45:07 AM »
Hi All,

Merry Xmas,  Stoern MOTOR ONLY replication is here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HT6KdUECEqE

It is the most basic drive I could build but it does work, it accelerates and there is NO measurable field around the toroid.

Ben

Hi Ben,

Congratulations old friend! It looks like you are the first independant person to replicate and confirm the validity of Steorn's pulse motor drive system/technology. Excellent work and well done! I am sure there will be much more to come. The mind boggles with the possibilities but one does wonder, since it has been a long time coming indeed, if the proverbial cat has been let out of the proverbial bag...

Merry Christmas to all.

Regards,

Ossie

Omnibus

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #406 on: December 25, 2009, 01:02:04 AM »
@k4zep,

Thanks Ben for the vid. Great job. Is it possible to show the voltage trace at higher resolution (the higher the better) and put weight on the rotor to see if there would be even a slightest back emf? Thanks.

k4zep

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #407 on: December 25, 2009, 01:23:16 AM »
@k4zep,

Thanks Ben for the vid. Great job. Is it possible to show the voltage trace at higher resolution (the higher the better) and put weight on the rotor to see if there would be even a slightest back emf? Thanks.

Hi OB,

Been working on this since 6:00 a.m., worn out.  But yes, I can show higher resolution but there is just no coupling between the coil and the magnets (well 1 mv generated CEMF) which is zilch.  I'll try to show voltage across coil and current in coil tomorrow.  Just too worn out tonight.  Funny with virtually all the inductance in the coil canceled with the filar design, there is still a hell of a INDUCTIVE kick back like a normal coil but nothing from the external magnets....It would appear that the coil as far as rest of the motor is concerned is just sitting out there doing nothing.  There is virtually no back or CEMF.   As a generator, it only induces 1-2 mv in the coil due to the core being covered/immersed in the coil. Now when the field collapses in the filar coil, it will zap you with inductive kickback!!!!.  It needs a diode across the coil to shunt it back into the coil and add efficiency to the motor.

Thats all for now.
Ben

PaulLowrance

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #408 on: December 25, 2009, 01:41:06 AM »
Ben,

Once again, nice job! When you get a chance, could you place a DC battery along with an inductor in series with your large toroid while the magnets are spinning and show the a scope trace off voltage across the toroid? The reason for adding the inductor is to help block as much AC going into the battery so you can see the AC voltage produced by the magnets due to the toroid effective permeability changing from the magnets.

This might be revealing what I've seen in FEMM for a long time. I believe Steorn claim is legit, but I don't think it's a simple as it appears here. Indeed there would be no bemf on a perfectly uniform toroid, but this design is an entirely different animal, where the issue is a change in effective permeability.

So once again I think the excess energy would come from magnetic viscosity.

Anyhow, I think you guys will be surprised when you see how the magnets induce AC voltage on the toroid when there's current flowing through the toroid.


interestedinou

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #409 on: December 25, 2009, 01:42:41 AM »
Hi OB,

Been working on this since 6:00 a.m., worn out.  But yes, I can show higher resolution but there is just no coupling between the coil and the magnets (well 1 mv generated CEMF) which is zilch.  I'll try to show voltage across coil and current in coil tomorrow.  Just too worn out tonight.  Funny with virtually all the inductance in the coil canceled with the filar design, there is still a hell of a INDUCTIVE kick back like a normal coil but nothing from the external magnets....It would appear that the coil as far as rest of the motor is concerned is just sitting out there doing nothing.  There is virtually no back or CEMF.   As a generator, it only induces 1-2 mv in the coil due to the core being covered/immersed in the coil. Now when the field collapses in the filar coil, it will zap you with inductive kickback!!!!.  It needs a diode across the coil to shunt it back into the coil and add efficiency to the motor.

Thats all for now.
Ben

Hello Ben,

I responded to the private message you sent me.

I appreciate you responding.

If you get an opportunity please respond back.

Thanks.

k4zep

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #410 on: December 25, 2009, 02:33:32 AM »
Ben,

Once again, nice job! When you get a chance, could you place a DC battery along with an inductor in series with your large toroid while the magnets are spinning and show the a scope trace off voltage across the toroid? The reason for adding the inductor is to help block as much AC going into the battery so you can see the AC voltage produced by the magnets due to the toroid effective permeability changing from the magnets.

This might be revealing what I've seen in FEMM for a long time. I believe Steorn claim is legit, but I don't think it's a simple as it appears here. Indeed there would be no bemf on a perfectly uniform toroid, but this design is an entirely different animal, where the issue is a change in effective permeability.

So once again I think the excess energy would come from magnetic viscosity.

Anyhow, I think you guys will be surprised when you see how the magnets induce AC voltage on the toroid when there's current flowing through the toroid.

Hi Paul,

One of many things to try.  I believe you are wanting me to bias the coils through an inductor with a separate isolated supply and then look at the resultant AC that develops across that inductor.  Probably easier to energize the main coil and then AC couple to the coil and spin the magnets and see if there is external field excitation of the core when energized at various levels of current in the coil.  Mechanically, due to the angular mechanics of core/magnet interface, you might see something if the orientation is there.  The real question then is if there is modulation of the inductance, does it have any net effect on the motor or is just an ac anomaly internal to the coil if it does not saturate the coil but remains in a somewhat linear portion of the cores permeability window.  Just a thought, perhaps electromagnetic or magnetic bias of coil to shift it into optimum switching window for optimum operation.  Sheesss, hope that makes sense.

As for magnetic viscosity, one of many possibly good theories out there.  Perhaps you would like elaborate on that theory so I can understand what I am looking for.

Ben

interestedinou

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #411 on: December 25, 2009, 03:40:33 AM »
Does the following show the back EMF going in the correct direction? I am considering building this setup. I really need to know.

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=8411.0;attach=40150;image

Here's the code to import the circuit in the java applet:

$ 1 5.0E-6 12.050203812241895 50 5.0 50
v 432 320 432 144 0 0 40.0 5.0 0.0 0.0 0.5
l 240 144 240 320 0 1.0 0.0786318065125002
159 432 320 304 320 0 20.0 1.0E10
159 304 144 432 144 0 20.0 1.0E10
w 240 144 304 144 0
w 240 320 304 320 0
R 368 224 304 224 0 2 20.0 10.0 0.0 0.0 0.5
w 368 160 368 224 0
w 368 224 368 304 0
w 240 320 240 432 0
w 240 432 528 432 0
w 528 432 528 144 0
d 528 144 432 144 1 0.805904783
d 432 320 560 320 1 0.805904783
w 560 320 560 96 0
w 560 96 240 96 0
w 240 96 240 144 0
o 1 64 0 35 10.0 0.1 0 -1

applet link: http://www.falstad.com/circuit/

This will dump all the energy directly back into the battery. I also attached an illustration of it. The signal generator is meant for switching the switches, in orbo's case this is the optical signal.

PaulLowrance

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #412 on: December 25, 2009, 03:47:50 AM »
Probably easier to energize the main coil and then AC couple to the coil and spin the magnets and see if there is external field excitation of the core when energized at various levels of current in the coil.

That would a lot better if you don't mind adding a secondary coil. I have no idea how many turns it would have to be in order for your scope to pick up the AC over noise.
 
 
 

As for magnetic viscosity, one of many possibly good theories out there.  Perhaps you would like elaborate on that theory so I can understand what I am looking for.

Oh, I don't want to bore you with this stuff. It's the same old stuff I've worked on for years,
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:PaulLowrance
 
It's interesting that Steorn has also mentioned magnetic viscosity as being a key ingredient to Orbo. IMO there's definitely something very sensitive going on with their design, far far more than a permeability motor. Have you seen how much the eOrbo rpm varies. It's crazy. Something that seems very difficult and sensitive to capture, and IMO Steorn's got it.
 
 
 

interestedinou

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #413 on: December 25, 2009, 04:04:00 AM »
Does the following show the back EMF going in the correct direction? I am considering building this setup. I really need to know.

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=8411.0;attach=40150;image

Could someone look at the image attached and tell me if the flyback is flowing in the right direction?

interestedinou

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #414 on: December 25, 2009, 04:12:58 AM »
@Broli,
I like the circuit, but is it showing the back EMF flowing in the correct direction?

Can anyone please tell us if the current is flowing in the right direction in diagram in that post?

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8411.msg216551#msg216551

I really need to know.

Mr.Entropy

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #415 on: December 25, 2009, 05:05:19 AM »
I have 6 different toroids and all in the 40 to 200u + range,  Need to get some with a u in the 1-10 range, will take about a week or so to get.  its a delicate balancing act.  We don't have to totally shield the core but the better, the more output.
Hey k4zep,

That's backwards.  You need a core with much higher permeability so that you can saturate it with less current.  J or W ferrite (U = 5000 or 10000) would be nice.

Congrats on getting that motor up so fast.

lumen

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #416 on: December 25, 2009, 05:53:46 AM »
Paul,
Quote
Have you seen how much the eOrbo rpm varies.

Do you think it's something special, or just the reed switches welding or corroding from the current.
Seems like they could build metal bridges that could change the timing and then burn away again after another few hundred thousand connections.

I think the toroid coils on edge to the twin magnets is important to the OU operation.

The single row design that k4zep is using will show some voltage waveform on the coils by spinning the rotor. If there was a balanced pair of magnets with opposite polarity on the rotor, there could be no waveform generated.


interestedinou

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #417 on: December 25, 2009, 06:16:25 AM »
Can anyone please tell us if the current is flowing in the right direction in diagram in that post?

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8411.msg216551#msg216551

I really need to know.

Lumen,

Can you please tell me if the flyback current is flowing in the right direction in that diagram?

PaulLowrance

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #418 on: December 25, 2009, 06:19:54 AM »
Paul,
Do you think it's something special, or just the reed switches welding or corroding from the current.

Not sure, but the Steorn tachoman in that awesome video recently posted in this thread basically said he's puzzled why the rpms are varying so much. That has me thinking.

interestedinou

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #419 on: December 25, 2009, 06:48:42 AM »
Not sure, but the Steorn tachoman in that awesome video recently posted in this thread basically said he's puzzled why the rpms are varying so much. That has me thinking.

It's probably the reed switches failing.