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Author Topic: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM  (Read 1198003 times)

billmehess

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #345 on: December 23, 2009, 04:25:59 PM »
@MileHigh

We know that changing the battery to a capacitor would be proof of OU.
But there IS a problem!
The Steorn devices contain no control electronics, so in a real OU device, how long could the device run on a capacitor?

I think about 45 seconds would be about it. That don't sound like much of a display.
After all, what good is an over unity device that only runs 45 seconds?
This really is the heart of the debate. If the device is really OU then it would run indef. off the cap. the reason that they are using a battery instead of the cap is that the device is not OU.
Its absolutly amazing to me and (I am sure everyone else) that they are not using a cap nor do they have any instrumentation to measure and confirm power in and power out. This should be beyond obvious.
I can not understand why every post on this thread is not asking that?
This is simply another ploy to keep the investor money rolling in,
It seems to me that MileHigh and myself seem to be the only posters raising the flag here. Even a five year old could see what there up to!!!

Omnibus

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #346 on: December 23, 2009, 04:38:00 PM »
@billmehes,

They a company and they are protecting themselves. Stefan explained it already. How else are they gonna earn money. This is the unfortunate way our system functions.

What they have given away already is substantial info about what they call "their technology" (which in fact is something vell known as an idea, as far as I can see) -- violation of Lentz' law which is eqivalent to having an OU device. If that doesn't wet your appetite no amount of evidence with or without caps will be sufficient to you.


billmehess

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #347 on: December 23, 2009, 04:45:35 PM »
@billmehes,

They a company and they are protecting themselves. Stefan explained it already. How else are they gonna earn money. This is the unfortunate way our system functions.

What they have given away already is substantial info about what they call "their technology" (which in fact is something vell known as an idea, as far as I can see) -- violation of Lentz' law which is eqivalent to having an OU device. If that doesn't wet your appetite no amount of evidence with or without caps will be sufficient to you.
Come on Omni there reason for being is to prove OU. You are right this how they raise money. Its only OU if power out is more than power in. Since they are claiming OU then this is what they must prove to be happening. They are the ones making the claim.   A cap or measurement of input power to output power would put this all to rest and they would receive more money than even they could comprehend. Its Lutec all over again. They guys are masters of misdirection. They thread is so Mylow like as the most obvious questions are not being asked.

shruggedatlas

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #348 on: December 23, 2009, 04:59:01 PM »
Come on Omni there reason for being is to prove OU. You are right this how they raise money. Its only OU if power out is more than power in. Since they are claiming OU then this is what they must prove to be happening. They are the ones making the claim.   A cap or measurement of input power to output power would put this all to rest and they would receive more money than even they could comprehend. Its Lutec all over again. They guys are masters of misdirection. They thread is so Mylow like as the most obvious questions are not being asked.

I agree, it does not make any sense to hide the ball as far as proof.  If Steorn wanted to make money off the SKDB, etc., then the thing to hide is not the proof of overunity, but everything else.

Instead, what they did is explain in basic terms how their invention works, while hiding the proof that it actually works.  Hey, if you want people to sign up for the SKDB, do the opposite.  Hide as much as you can about HOW the device works, but be absolutely crystal clear on your proof that it does in fact produce overunity.  That is how you wet someone's appetite to plunk down for an SKDB subscription!

I think the answer is obvious.  They cannot demonstrate the impossible, so they demonstrate the possible and claim the impossible.

Omnibus

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #349 on: December 23, 2009, 05:01:32 PM »
It isn't at all clear that they will get even more money if they reveal everything at once. All business is shady, has secrets, manipulates and so on. That's the nature of business. Otherwise everybody will be equally wealthy and that wealth differential won't exist. If you and I are angry at this kind of manipulation we should be 100 times more angry at the even greater manipulations of corporate culture we're sunk in. I'm amazed that they even showed that much.

billmehess

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #350 on: December 23, 2009, 05:08:26 PM »
It isn't at all clear that they will get even more money if they reveal everything at once. All business is shady, has secrets, manipulates and so on. That's the nature of business. Otherwise everybody will be equally wealthy and that wealth differential won't exist. If you and I are angry at this kind of manipulation we should be 100 times more angry at the even greater manipulations of corporate culture we're sunk in. I'm amazed that they even showed that much.
 
I sure agree with you on most of this but what really have they show? Its all smoke and mirrors.

Omnibus

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #351 on: December 23, 2009, 05:17:52 PM »
I sure agree with you on most of this but what really have they show? Its all smoke and mirrors.

Why smoke and mirrors? They showed practical constancy of V and I at all conditions of the experiment where according to Lentz' law there shouldn't have been one.

mondrasek

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #352 on: December 23, 2009, 05:20:58 PM »
I too would like to see the unit run off of a capacitor.  But Steorn says they will reveal the reason for the battery in the future.  So I must assume there is a reason for it.  One that I can think of is this:

The Steorn demo devices may not be able to generate enough electrical energy to replace the electrical energy needed to "switch" the toriodal coil to saturation.  This is due to the fact that they are not re-capturing the electrical energy that is used to switch the coils.  That energy is not being looped back to the battery and is lost (mostly as heat?).  Likewise, the work of the rotor in overcoming mechanical friction and wind resistance is also expending energy that is not recycled to the battery and is lost (again as heat).

So the system may still be OU but not able to run without an input energy source.  Still, they may be getting more energy out than in, and that is still OU.  The demo units are in this example an energy amplification device, but not a self running device.

Those of us that will only except the self running device as proof of OU might ask why they did not go that route.  I would argue that you could do either and prove OU technology.  I for one am fine with an energy amplification display as proof.  And maybe that is the simplest design that they could show, ie. the design with the smallest number of parts that could be claimed to house fraud, and the easiest to instrument to show more energy out than in.

Steorn has said that their technology can be demonstrated in a purely mechanical fashion as well as this electrical demo model.  Maybe these demo units can be reconfigured to show both, and ultimately a self runner, etc.

Just thoughts.

M.

Omnibus

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #353 on: December 23, 2009, 05:29:29 PM »
@mondrasek,

I agree with all you're saying. I too would be satisfied to see this as an energy amplifier, never mind self-runner (would be good but isn't crucial for the scientific conclusion I'm seeking). Paradoxically they are excellently equipped to demonstrate energy amplifications at a blink of an eye (almost). This is one of the best endowed OU experiments I've ever seen. Too bad the corporate spirit stands in the way. So, if you're a real scientist you're poor and cannot demonstrate it properly because of lack of funding (you'll be fired if you try to do it with the equipment from your day job) but if you're funded as a corporate entity you cannot demonstrate it properly because of the company requirements. Sticky wicked.

hartiberlin

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #354 on: December 23, 2009, 05:35:15 PM »


The Steorn demo devices may not be able to generate enough electrical energy to replace the electrical energy needed to "switch" the toriodal coil to saturation.  This is due to the fact that they are not re-capturing the electrical energy that is used to switch the coils.  That energy is not being looped back to the battery and is lost (mostly as heat?).  Likewise, the work of the rotor in overcoming mechanical friction and wind resistance is also expending energy that is not recycled to the battery and is lost (again as heat).

So the system may still be OU but not able to run without an input energy source.  Still, they may be getting more energy out than in, and that is still OU.  The demo units are in this example an energy amplification device, but not a self running device.


M.

Exactly, I totally agree.
As they don´t recycle back the BackEMF from the toroidal coils yet,
their output from the generator coils is probably lower than the input,
so in this crude model they can not show selfrunning with just a cap.

But I believe them, that all the output which is finally comverted to heat is bigger than
the total electrical input, so it is a OU evice.
But to measure this total heat output is pretty complicated and could
only be done with a very special and precise calorimeter.

So it is better first to scale this effect up with bigger magnets and toroidal coils
and recycle the inputed toroidal coil energy via the BackEMF and
then it could get selfrunning, if the losses are minimized.

Omnibus

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #355 on: December 23, 2009, 05:46:25 PM »
.

Omnibus

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #356 on: December 23, 2009, 05:46:59 PM »
Stefan,

It would be interesting and pretty straightforward to see the input VI product integrated over a certain period and compare it with the output VI product integrated for the same period. This they can do as we speak with this kind of oscilloscope. As for calorimetry, they can use a Seebeck calorimeter which at their level of funding they can acquire or rent without a problem. These are mostly games they are playing and that's because of investors involved, a company that has to be run and many other factors in the corporate world. In a way I can understand them seeing all this negativity, envy and sheer animosity directed at Steorn, aside from what the corporate world requires.

PaulLowrance

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #357 on: December 23, 2009, 05:50:14 PM »
If the energy comes from ambient, then the calorimetry method might not work.

Omnibus

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #358 on: December 23, 2009, 05:59:09 PM »
If the energy comes from ambient, then the calorimetry method might not work.

Calorimeter will help to determine the energy balance. It will be equally as curious if there's a disbalance as deficiency (anti-OU) -- energy will be destroyed. Don't think that's the case, though.

gravityblock

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #359 on: December 23, 2009, 06:04:11 PM »
This is a long post and I hope it is a good read.  Permeability is the magnetic conductivity of a material.  A higher permeable core will have a greater attraction for the rotor magnets than a low permeable core (I hope I got this right).

Now let's take a look at the "Expanding Field Model".  Let's assume a new flux-line begins as an infinitesimal small loop around the primary-wire. Since loops can not overlap or cross, this new loop must physically displace pre-existing loops outward when it is created.  Therefore magnetic fields must expand from, or contract to, the source wire.  This expanding field method is the only way that a magnetic field can expand (or contract) without violating Ampere’s Circuital Law.

In classical electromagnetic theory, it is common to talk about expanding and collapsing magnetic fields; however, this phenomenon is only addressed in the following simplistic terms: When the current is large, the magnetic field is large; when the current is small, the field is small. Classical electromagnetism does not discuss the manner in which a field expands, or contracts. The mechanism of field expansion and collapse is the concept for the Expanding Field Model. This model shows that flux expands and contracts through free-space with an actual real velocity which depends upon a number of factors.

To illustrate the expanding flux method, consider Figure 1 below showing the toroidal system at steady state. In this diagram, only one turn of the primary is shown for simplicity. The primary winding is shown relatively far away from the core for the purpose of examining the behavior of the flux near the primary. Since Ampere’s Circuital Law must not be violated, there must be flux between the primary-wire and the core as represented by the violet/thick flux-loop.  Each flux-loop is shown as a different color to aid in the discussion.  “Thicker” loops indicate higher magnetic field intensity (flux-lines/area).

We begin by considering the system prior to the increase in primary current as shown in Figure 1.  At this moment, there is a constant current in the primary which is responsible for the steady state magnetic field represented by flux-loops engaged by the core (blue/thin) and flux-loops near the primary which have not touched the core (violet/thick).  "G" is the secondary.

When the primary current increases in Figure 2, new flux-loops (red/thick) are created near the primary-wire which then displace the violet flux-loops out. As the violet flux-lines displace, they expand in perimeter which causes their intensity to decrease (represented by the diminished line thickness of the violet loop). When the flux-line expands to the point where it touches the core, the “engagement” process begins. The “engagement” process continues as the remainder of the flux-loop is drawn into the core.  The black arrows in the diagram represent the flux velocity.
                                                                       
In the engagement process, the right violet loop (inside the core) simply expands across the center as shown in Figure 2. Since, the left violet loop can not pass through other loops, it must therefore swing around the primary to the left or right (like a door slamming shut). When steady state is achieved, the violet flux-loops are completely engaged by the core (we are assuming an ideal core).

This method preserves the integrity of the classical flux model and Ampere’s Circuital Law; however, it shows that the flux-lines “cut” the secondary on their journey to engage the core.

The permeability of the core affects the number of flux lines that will pass into the space contained by the secondary when the primary current increases.  It is not hard to see that with increased core permeability, more flux-lines pass into the interior of the secondary for any given increase in primary current.

I hope this is helpful in replicating a Lenz free motor or even a motionless OU Generator.


GB