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Author Topic: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM  (Read 1042847 times)

Offline X00013

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #3915 on: August 05, 2010, 01:59:48 AM »

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Offline Omnibus

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #3916 on: August 05, 2010, 02:06:19 AM »
@omni, try a watt meter :)
              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eLa2BiiOa0&playnext=1&videos=NhIkX24TzkM

Thanks, buddy. In this case, however, a very detailed measurement is needed whereby multiplication of the momentary I and V values is to be carried out at time intervals as short as possible. The wattmeter only gives average values based on rms.

The song is kewl. The vid reminds me of when I have to go to Mass through CT.

Offline gyulasun

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #3917 on: August 05, 2010, 11:52:00 AM »

The C value in my RC circuit was 115pF. The 1:1 probe, like I said, was 110pF. So, you consider these two capacitances to be connected in parallel, correct?

Yes.

Quote
And, so what I measure isn't the phase shift caused by the 115pF of the capacitance in the measured circuit but is the phase shift caused by 110 + 115 = 225pF capacitance, right? Now, if I use an active probe I'll measure 115 + 5 = 120pF?

Yes.

Quote
Isn't there a way to eliminate the capacitance of the voltage probe altogether?

In your particular case the cap values are known, this involves an embedding possibility whereby you could use a 5pF cap instead of the 115pF and the 1:1 probe’s 110pF will add to the C value in the RC circuit. This way the phase shift effectively will be caused by 115pF what you wish to use.

Quote
Also, I see these low capacitance probes have even lower impedance than 1MOhm and that will cause even higher current flowing through the circuit of the probe. Somehow, a sticky wicked situation. Wish there could be probes working like electrometers, with practically infinite input impedance, having no capacitance. Do you think such probes exist? 

Yes, there are active probes with 1 MegaOhm input impedance @ 2pF self capacitance only, like Tektronix P6205 (list price is about EU1000)
Unfortunately they are designed for certain scope families to plug in like TDS1000 series but then these are also 8-bit scopes…

Quote
Another question -- suppose one finds the right probe, do you think an 8-bit scope (having somewhere around +-100mV accuracy) has enough accuracy for these studies or I should look for a higher end?

I am afraid you should.  For instance the TDS3000 series are with 9-bit resolution, though this may still not give you the needed precision. I have not searched further Tektronix digital scope families for their possible 10-bit feature, you may wish to inquire, keeping an eye for an active probe connection possibility too.

Gyula

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #3917 on: August 05, 2010, 11:52:00 AM »
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Offline Omnibus

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #3918 on: August 05, 2010, 12:43:09 PM »
@gyulasun,

Quote
In your particular case the cap values are known, this involves an embedding possibility whereby you could use a 5pF cap instead of the 115pF and the 1:1 probe’s 110pF will add to the C value in the RC circuit. This way the phase shift effectively will be caused by 115pF what you wish to use.

The RC circuit is with C = 115pF and R = 10Ohm. This is what I have in the circuit under study (say, these RadioShack components I used in some of the measurements). Suppose I do the measurements with the 1:1 voltage probe having 110pF input capacitance and I'm measuring the voltage before the current probe. In this way the current through the probe is not included. In such a case I should have I and V corresponding to the RadioShack components (115pF and 10Ohm) but the I-V phase shift will correspond to the 110 + 115 = 225pF, if I understand you correctly. But then wouldn't it be better to measure current after the voltage probe? In this way I will have all the current (through the circuit and through the probe), the correct voltage across the studied circuit but the I-V phase shift will be correctly attributed to the true current corresponding to the 225pF? In such a case, if I now know for sure that what I measure as I and as V does correspond to the known capacitance 225pF then my only issue would be the accuracy of the scope. Does that make sense?

Of course, I may use the 1:10 probe which has lower input capacitance (don't remember how much it was but probably around 50pF would be somewhat close) and then the known capacitance will be lower -- 115 + 50 = 165pF. I would prefer the 1:1 probe though because the 1:10 probe adds to the inaccuracy of the scope.

Now, if the above is correct I should really focus on upgrading the scope. What do you think about the 14-bit scope cards, instead of using Tektronix scopes (unfortunately, however, my current probe only works with Tektronix and that's another issue I have to take into account).

Offline gyulasun

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #3919 on: August 05, 2010, 01:16:40 PM »
Somewhere you surely uploaded a schematic on your circuit with the probes included, or an arrangement of your setup.

Would you refer to it with a link please? It would be easier to speak of it.

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #3919 on: August 05, 2010, 01:16:40 PM »
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Offline Omnibus

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #3920 on: August 05, 2010, 02:14:55 PM »
Here are the two ways of measuring current, posted by @teslaalset: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8411.msg247902#msg247902

Offline gyulasun

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #3921 on: August 05, 2010, 03:20:49 PM »
Thank you. 

Now it is clear that I misunderstood you, I had thought you were speaking of measuring the voltage across the 115pF capacitor with the 1:1 probe...  sorry.  (So in the schematic there should have been a second voltage probe on the right hand side, across the capacitor. The voltage probe on the left measures the input voltage and the other on the right measures the capacitor voltage...  that is how I thought. Earlier you had had such setup with at least 3 voltage probes.)

Now it is clear that my suggestion of using a 5pF cap instead of the 115pF is not good, unless the voltage across the C member is to be measured with the 1:1 probe, which is not case now.

Regarding the two measurement setups drawn by teslaalset, I agree his notices, and I think in the bottom case where the 1:1 probe is connected directly across the FG output, a remedy to avoid the phase shift of the probe's 110pF capacitance, you may wish to connect an inductance of the same reactance value to compensate for the 110pF.  Putting it otherwise, you neutralize the reactive effect of the cap with an equal but opposite reactance, constituting a parallel LC circuit at the FG output.
If your output freq is say, 800kHz, then Xc=1.8kOhm and the compensating inductance from XL=1.8kOhm give about 360uH.
The output impedance of the FG will remain at 50 Ohm resistive as before because the reactances would cancel at the chosen frequency. The bonus is the 1:1 probe will not cause unwanted phase shift anywhere in the circuit.

rgds,  Gyula
 

« Last Edit: August 05, 2010, 11:59:28 PM by gyulasun »

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #3921 on: August 05, 2010, 03:20:49 PM »
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Offline Omnibus

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #3922 on: August 06, 2010, 02:40:16 AM »
@gyulasun,

That's a good idea. I'd appreciate it if you could sketch it to avoid any misunderstanding. Makes you wonder why this isn't a general practice with these passive probes -- it would avoid spending so much money for the active and many times of the differential probes. I guess, this techniques has to be applied with those probes too. Also, another thing -- this technique can be applied both to the 1:1 and to the 1:10 probe but then why use the 1:10 probe at all? Shouldn't I always stay with the 1:1 probe once that parasitic capacitance of the probe is taken care of. What do you think?

Do you think this method will be applicable n the measurements of transformers and various coils as well?

So, now, once I do that (add that compensating inductance), the only thing I have to worry about is the accuracy of the scope. Here is an example of a 14-bit scope: http://www.gage-products.com/14-bit-digitizers/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=updated-north-america&gclid=CKP-2LfNo6MCFYdb2godLHIw5w. Do you think it would be better to carry out the measurements with this kind of scope rather than with a high end Tektronix scope which I don't even think has accuracy greater than 11-bit?

Offline gyulasun

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #3923 on: August 06, 2010, 09:49:49 AM »
....
 Makes you wonder why this isn't a general practice with these passive probes -- it would avoid spending so much money for the active and many times of the differential probes. I guess, this techniques has to be applied with those probes too. 

NO.  This compensation is frequency dependent, it is impossible to make it wideband for the full range of probes, valid only for one frequency for which you actually need compensation i.e. where you measure at.

Quote
Also, another thing -- this technique can be applied both to the 1:1 and to the 1:10 probe but then why use the 1:10 probe at all? Shouldn't I always stay with the 1:1 probe once that parasitic capacitance of the probe is taken care of. What do you think?

1:10 probes have 10MegaOhm input impedance @ 14-20pF parallel capacitance, this is much better than 1:1 probes 1MOhm @ 100-120pF parallel capacitances, this is why 1:10 probes are used, then come the active probes.  Parasitic capacitance can be taken care of at always one particular frequency only, in your case at 800-900kHz and you have to decide on frequency, then calculate inductance.

Quote
Do you think this method will be applicable n the measurements of transformers and various coils as well? 

ONLY in case you are fully aware of the effect of parallel resonance at a certain frequency, and also consider the terminating impedances of the transformers. For instance, capacitance compansation is a well known method in case of wide band transmission line transformers used for impedance transformations over some hundred MHz. In most cases the impedances are low (from some Ohms to some hundred Ohms), this means the parallel resonance effect cannot create unwanted amplitude increase at the resonance frequency, the loaded Q is low and controlled.

NOTICE that I added a capacitor in series with the compensating coil: this is needed when you switch on the DC offset of the FG for your further measurements, the cap prevents the coil's direct short circuit effect on the output DC voltage. The capacitor's value can be a 220-470nF, not critical in this high range with respect to the 110pF small value. (say you choose 220nF, this does create a series resonant frequency at 17-18kHz with the  360uH , well away from your 800-900kHz test frequency.)


Quote
So, now, once I do that (add that compensating inductance), the only thing I have to worry about is the accuracy of the scope. Here is an example of a 14-bit scope: http://www.gage-products.com/14-bit-digitizers/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=updated-north-america&gclid=CKP-2LfNo6MCFYdb2godLHIw5w. Do you think it would be better to carry out the measurements with this kind of scope rather than with a high end Tektronix scope which I don't even think has accuracy greater than 11-bit?

I am not much familiar with those cards, a quick glimpse on their input impedance shows 1MOhm @ 40pF or 50 Ohm, selectable inputs. So there you would have input capacitance too at the 1MOhm input...  Otherwise the resolution and accuracy sounds very good. Maybe other members here can comment this too.

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #3923 on: August 06, 2010, 09:49:49 AM »
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Offline Omnibus

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #3924 on: August 06, 2010, 02:28:09 PM »
Thanks @gyulasun. I guess we should also take into account the parasitic capacitance of L. All in all probably it would be better to seek more advanced probes such as http://www.tek.com/products/accessories/differential.html although even then there may be questions in view of the extreme sensitivity of the OU effect especially regarding the I-V phase shift. It appears this is a major issue for all such measurements, in addition to errors from calculations based on thousands let alone hundreds of thousands of points.

Because the question for the reality of OU is a 'yes' or 'no' question there are then only two ways to prove OU indisputably -- through demonstrating a self-sustaining device or through proving  theoretically that OU is inherent in electric devices under certain conditions. I have shown that that's the case for certain voltage offsets. That's definitive. It can also be speculated that the core or other construction details (the mode of wire winding, for instance) would cause the I-V phase shift to be different from what's expected based on the components of the circuit and that would cause OU. This can be shown theoretically. Too bad that speculation cannot be checked experimentally. Like I said, no matter what you do to show it in an experiment, short of presenting a self-sustaining device, there will always be questions regarding the accuracy and precision of the measurements such as the ones we're discussing here.

Having seen no self-sustaining device in any of the attempts to demonstrate OU in electrical systems, the analysis involving the voltage offset is the only reason so far that gives categorical assurance that OU in electrical systems is real.

Offline Omnibus

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #3925 on: August 09, 2010, 03:49:32 AM »
@All,

I'm continuing here the discussion of the experimental side of these OU projects connected with electrical measurements. All of them (I'm talking about the legitimate experiments made competently) suffer from the same sick approach by the mainstream science and that has to be fought.

A rigorous researcher puts more and more requirements before the methodology of the measurement. That requires investments beyond the reach not only of individuals but even of the better endowed labs. I see, for instance, @broli is preparing to get an LC meter but the price ranges there are horrendous -- from 50 or so dollars to close to 17 grand: http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/product.jspx?cc=US&lc=eng&ckey=715495&nid=-34124.536908436.00&id=715495 . That only for the LC meter. Altogether, considering the high-end scopes, appropriate probes etc. this easily amounts to 50 grand if not even 100 grand and more. However, even if one manages to get that precise equipment there still are major problems with the data processing. As I've shown, for instance, Riemann integration doesn't guarantee the most accurate outcome. I won't be amazed if it turns out that the numerical solutions of the Navier-Stokes equations which @P-Motion mentions in his thread suffer from this weakness which may be the real cause for those instabilities in the methods for solving the difference equations. These problems may be found across the board where there are numerical solutions.

Getting back to the electrical measurements -- show me one paper in the mainstream scientific literature, in any of the prestigious peer-reviewed journals, with exemplary experimental results of power balances especially of complex form signals. I can challenge it on the same grounds the experiments of Steorn or any of the quality work in the OU community is challenged. Even more -- based on what I've already shown you, I'll challenge it regarding the inevitable numerical part that any such study contains. So, where in the mainstream literature are those data proving the validity of CoE in electrical systems? I guarantee you, such can't be found. Again, anything that would be presented can be challenged on exactly the same basis the quality experimental work in OU is being challenged. In this respect the mainstream isn't less of a voodoo science than the OU research many of the zealous activists claim it is. This is a dead-end on both sides of the barricade -- both for those who maintain that electrical systems obey CoE and for those who deny it. Don't tell me those who deny CoE are first to prove it. I maintain, and I've proved it definitively, that those who claim that CoE is always obeyed in electrical systems not only can't prove that but, as I've already shown, that truth is exactly the opposite -- under certain circumstances CoE can be violated in electrical systems beyond a shadow of a doubt. I've shown that under certain circumstances that's the case in mechanical systems as well. So, what are we, those that have proved that CoE can be violated, supposed to do to get that fact across to the mainstream? As I said above, no level of investment in more and more accurate apparatus will suffice. Also, to require engineering development leading to a self-sustaining device and to think that that's gonna be the solution, means to reject the role of the scientific argumentation -- no such rejection of the scientific argumentation and method is observed anywhere in the mainstream. So, that double standard is also tacky and unacceptable. This is really the heart of the matter and we shouldn't continue to bump our heads against the wall but should find ways to get out of this situation and require that the mainstream recognize the validity of the OU claims. But how? What shall we do? Any thoughts?

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #3925 on: August 09, 2010, 03:49:32 AM »
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Offline Omnibus

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #3926 on: August 17, 2010, 12:01:54 AM »
@Groundloop,

Are you still up to eventually figuring out how to close the loop in this latest example. Probably we should discuss it a little bit. I'd like to hear your opinion about designing a converter. Would it be viable at all?

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #3927 on: August 18, 2010, 06:07:07 AM »
I know it's mid August and everybody is on vacation but still there may be someone reading who is in the know of designing electronic circuits besides @Groundloop and @poynt99. Wonder if @gyulasun would be one? The word is about closing the loop in those electric circuits I've been studying recently. Give a buss. I'll be coming back periodically.

Offline X00013

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #3928 on: August 19, 2010, 04:00:08 AM »

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Re: STEORN DEMO LIVE & STREAM in Dublin, December 15th, 10 AM
« Reply #3929 on: August 20, 2010, 04:20:17 PM »
@All,

I was thinking I have to get to the next level, that is, replace the pulse generator by a capacitor and a schematic to form the sine waves and the offset I was using in the experiments. Any thoughts?

 

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