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Mechanical free energy devices => mechanic => Topic started by: Low-Q on December 04, 2009, 12:11:06 AM

Title: The airbubble in the magnetic fluid - what if?
Post by: Low-Q on December 04, 2009, 12:11:06 AM
Hi,

I have no drawing here, but imagine this:

I have a container half full of magnetic fluid. It just floats in there like water. If I put a straw into the fluid, and make bubbles, the bubbles will rise straight upwards.

What if I put a strong magnet on the side of the container, and the magnetic fluid will float towards the magnet so the fluid level is higher close to the magnet than the opposite side.

Then I again put my straw in the fluid and make bubbles. Will the bubbles go stright upwards, or will the bubble rise upwards in an angle away from the magnetic field?

That is my $1000 question for today :)

Br.

Vidar
Title: Re: The airbubble in the magnetic fluid - what if?
Post by: shruggedatlas on December 04, 2009, 12:32:52 AM
Hi,

I have no drawing here, but imagine this:

I have a container half full of magnetic fluid. It just floats in there like water. If I put a straw into the fluid, and make bubbles, the bubbles will rise straight upwards.

What if I put a strong magnet on the side of the container, and the magnetic fluid will float towards the magnet so the fluid level is higher close to the magnet than the opposite side.

Then I again put my straw in the fluid and make bubbles. Will the bubbles go stright upwards, or will the bubble rise upwards in an angle away from the magnetic field?

That is my $1000 question for today :)

Br.

Vidar

My guess is the air bubble will angle away from the magnet.  The air bubble will take the path of least resistance, and since the water pressure is heavier toward the magnet, the bubble should in theory want to get away from the magnet, while still traveling upward.

If this was a gravity free environment, the bubble would travel directly away from the magnet, but since there are two forces still in play, it would choose a diagonal that minimizes the fluid pressure.
Title: Re: The airbubble in the magnetic fluid - what if?
Post by: gravityblock on December 04, 2009, 06:45:58 AM
Vidar,

A magnetic fluid hardens in the presence of a magnetic field.  I don't think you would be able to blow bubbles in a solid like fluid.  A magnetic fluid attracts to a magnet with either pole, similar to a metal piece. 

If you was blowing bubbles far enough away from the magnetic field where the fluid was still in liquid form, then the bubbles would be outside the influence of the magnetic field and would behave as if the magnet wasn't there.

Here's a video of a magnet confining a ferromagnetic fluid while without the magnet it will pour.  http://www.freesciencelectures.com/video/ferromagnetic-liquid/


GB
Title: Re: The airbubble in the magnetic fluid - what if?
Post by: Low-Q on December 04, 2009, 08:34:36 AM
I have heard that ferromagntetic fluid still feel liquid when you put your finger on it, even though it seems to be solid in a precense of a magnet. Have you guys experimented with ferrofluids, so you know it hardens in the precense of a magnet? According to experiments I have read about, it does not feel solid with a magnet in precense. Something like this: "Even though the spikes look solid, you can still let your finger go straight through it as in a liquid". Sounds promising, but I also think the bubble will try to escape the magnetic field. I was hoping not, because then it would be possible to make a real unbalanced buoyancy wheel :)

Yesterday I bought 120g on ebay (Those fluids are quite expencive - 60 dollars for 120g :o). So when it arrives I will play a little with it and see what I find out - you know, too curious to let go ;D
Title: Re: The airbubble in the magnetic fluid - what if?
Post by: FatChance!!! on December 04, 2009, 03:34:55 PM
How will this translate into an overunity device?
Title: Re: The airbubble in the magnetic fluid - what if?
Post by: Low-Q on December 04, 2009, 05:00:56 PM
How will this translate into an overunity device?
If the bubble goes stright up, I can replace the bubble, and put a buoyancy wheel in it and let the magnetic fluid cover 1/2 the left or right side of the wheel.... that was the idea anyway - a magnetic driven buoyancy wheel so to speak. In that way it makes one of the sides of the wheel heavier, and the other lighter due to the buoyancy and rise upwards. The floats are not affected by magnetism and will not stick to the magnetic field.

However, if the bubble moves angular to the magnetic field (Actually angular to the vector between gravity and the magnetic field), to left or right, then the buoyancy wheel will not work. That's what I think. I really don't know how the bubble will act, so I bought some liquid to check it out.

 :)
Title: Re: The airbubble in the magnetic fluid - what if?
Post by: FatChance!!! on December 07, 2009, 11:34:30 PM
Interesting, please tell us your findings.  ;D
Title: Re: The airbubble in the magnetic fluid - what if?
Post by: Low-Q on December 09, 2009, 05:10:21 PM
I will tell everything about my findings...I hope I'm wrong - else someone in black suits will probably kill me... ;D
Title: Re: The airbubble in the magnetic fluid - what if?
Post by: mr_bojangles on December 10, 2009, 07:45:33 AM
i would assume it would be denser than water, in which case it would sink to the bottom as opposed to mixing

nevertheless my money is on the bubbles "rolling" over the ferro liquid, maybe agitating it a little bit

i think a more interesting question would be what happens if you stuck the straw in the middle of the magnetic fluid and blew bubbles

what if you put it in a hose and rolled it up and then exposed it to a magnetic field, would it straighten up or freeze in place? the video by made it appear as if it takes the shape of the magnet as opposed to the field itself


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zCDyg8GIWc&feature=related
another vid^
Title: Re: The airbubble in the magnetic fluid - what if?
Post by: Low-Q on December 11, 2009, 03:22:45 PM
So I got my magnetic fluid. So now it's time for som testing. I will report back when I'm done.

...the fluid is quite black, so it might be hard to see where the bubble is going. I will post pictures of the experiment. Maybe a youtube video, but cannot promise that.

Cheers
Title: Re: The airbubble in the magnetic fluid - what if?
Post by: Low-Q on December 13, 2009, 12:24:36 AM
OK. I had some ferrofluid in a box, and put a magnet on one side, so most of the fluid was "falling" sideways towards the magnet. I used a straw and stucked it in the middle of the fluid and blew bubbles. It was harder to blow the bubbles with the magnet present, because the magnetic force (I use a strong neodym magnet) made the "gravity" in the fluid very strong. So it took some force to push away the fluid with air.

Anyway, the bubble came out sideways away from the magnetic field. The ferrofluid wanted to occupy the airspace in the bubble in the direction of the magnetic force. I thought: "Ofcourse stupid, I should foreseen that!"

After my findings about the bubble direction, that it was hard to blow bubbles because the ferrofluid is very "heavy" in the precense of a strong magnetic field (Like blowing bubbles in mercury), I have a few questions left:

What happens if I fill a box partially with water, and then place a magnet on the side, then fill some ferrofluid (It is oil) in it. Then I put a buoyancy wheel in it. Will the weight of the ferro fluid be greater in the direction of the magnetic force, and normal in the direction of gravity? Will the density of the ferrofluid stay the same, but still different from the water - so a buoyancy wheel would feel different gravity on each respective sides? Would a gravity wheel with weights be lighter inside the ferrofluid than in air?

Those questions, or at least a one of them will be answered when I start to experiment further - with a gravity wheel partially covered by ferro fluid on one of the sides.

Stay put, but do not hold your breath :)

Vidar
Title: Re: The airbubble in the magnetic fluid - what if?
Post by: Low-Q on December 13, 2009, 11:41:23 PM
Hi,

Finally I got a drawing to show you. No pictures of experiments yet though :-[

Here is what I want to test:

The olive colored wheel is made of a non magnetic material. Some of the spokes are inside the ferrofluid. The spokes will displace some volume of ferro fluid. The displaced volume of ferrofluid represent a given weight. This weight is making a difference in weight on the left and right side of the wheel. In this case, the wheel will rotate counter clockwise because gravity is still affecting the ferrofluid - even if it's floating allmost vertically. At least that is the idea.
Title: Re: The airbubble in the magnetic fluid - what if?
Post by: Low-Q on December 18, 2009, 04:17:23 PM
I have done the experiment. It seems like the ferrofluid is virtually weightless when trapped between two magnets or into a magnet some how. I had a lot of ferrofluid between two magnets and cut out a part of a straw to put inside the ferrofluid. The straw represent a volume of air in the middle of the fluid, but it do not raise according to the buoyancy effect even if the straw itself is pretty easy to move up and down. Here is the pictures of the experiment. As you can see there is a hole right through the ferrofluid which is trapped between two neo-magnets. I thought that gravity was still acting on the ferrofluid in the same way as when it would be inside a enclosed container - without magnets present. But no. Vertical buoyancy is not possible for ferofluids in a magnetic field strong enough to keep the fluid from droping down.

Vidar
Title: Re: The airbubble in the magnetic fluid - what if?
Post by: ResinRat2 on December 18, 2009, 04:47:16 PM
Nice try, Vidar. Too bad it didn't work but thanks very much for doing the experiment and posting your results.

RR2
Title: Re: The airbubble in the magnetic fluid - what if?
Post by: Blainiac on March 21, 2010, 07:04:49 AM
Could you try displacing more ferrofluid?  I don't think that would work but maybe Vidar?
Title: Re: The airbubble in the magnetic fluid - what if?
Post by: mscoffman on March 21, 2010, 06:53:36 PM
@Vidar

Actually I believe there are various different viscosities of ferrofluids.

The ones used in magnet clutches- magnetic rheological fluid -
completely hardens to lock the two clutch disks together when
the magnet is fully asserted. There are a number of fascinating
you-tube videos having to do with ferro fluid control and
sculptures that seem nearly alive. It may be possible to dilute
some fluids down using the right solvent vehicle.

---

Here one proposed experiment I remember, that you might try;

Water floats above the ferrofluid that has been enabled by a magnet.
So you have effectively a fluidic trap door below the water. It will expel
the water.

You have a chain of ping pong balls that float up through the fluid
and then up through the water. The water can be made arbitrarily
deep so as to put arbitrarily large force on the next (lowest) ball
of the chain entering the device from underneath. If one then
connects the ends of the chain you will have a self running device.  ???

:S:MarkSCoffman