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Author Topic: Where's Van De Graff On This Board?  (Read 17232 times)

Offline Clara Listensprechen

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Where's Van De Graff On This Board?
« on: March 13, 2006, 05:23:56 AM »
Where can I find on this board any discussion of Van De Graff?  Danged if I don't zap myself with kilovolts everytime my shoes shuffle across the rug.  Not to mention that static has enough oomph to cause fires at gasoline stations given a truck's poly bed liner and a boneheaded driver not wise enough to ground nozzle and truck together properly before fueling up.

There's so much natural energy in static that it makes my hair stand on end.  YES I am aware that this animal is high-voltage-low-current, but somewhere else on this board was discussed the photovoltaic properties of the 2N3055, which turns out to be high-current-low-voltage.

Anybody else besides me think that the Van De Graff and the 2N3055 oughta get married?

 Discuss.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline raburgeson

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Re: Where's Van De Graff On This Board?
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2006, 07:16:53 AM »
Yes useful, the Van De Graff. The government has used them for years. The size is a problem. Winhurst generators can be made smaller. Several rotors can be set in series in a smaller area. They have a few problems that exist, and can be over come, it needs to be in a sealed case. Humidity lowers its ability to produce. Also it has the inherent problem of arcing and reversing polarity. I was trying seal a thin aluminium disk inside the rotor to create a capacitance hoping to overcome the reversal. I haven't given it enough of my time, I think capacitance will fix the problem, I keep getting dragged off on other projects. Also an improved design of the Van De Graff uses pellets instead of a belt, gives a bit more amperage. Make your own brushes, comercial ones are easy to beat, by all means buy some to get you up and running quickly. Experiment though it's worth it. Choice of materials, there are accurate charts are on the net, try to choose materials from opposite ends of the chart. Just a tip you may want to apply a different surface to the belt. The reason most people aren't looking in this direction is the static motor has very little developement time and is not all that efficient. A little time and improvement is needed in this area. A.C. motors have almost 70 years of developement and the efficiency is drawing most people into other areas of research. The best I can tell you is go for it, and good luck, even though it's not in a readily usable voltage these devices do generate a great deal of energy, and I think that's the point of being here, we are all trying to generate power.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Where's Van De Graff On This Board?
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2009, 07:21:49 AM »
It seems that the VDG machine is somewhat misunderstood. Careful construction and a little perseverance can give you a tabletop source of very high voltage, without the dangers inherent in more powerful power supplies. Yet the energy can be accumulated in capacitors for down-conversion and use.
Here are a couple of videos showing simple (and crude!) VDG machines that I built over the last couple of days. The second one can reach 115 kilovolts without difficulty, and cost about 12 dollars to build.
These machines can be driven with any source of rotational power, like a windmill, water wheel, hand crank, hamster, exercise bike, you name it. With a little care and cleverness you can accumulate a LOT of power, even from a tiny demonstration device like this one.

The most coherent theories of extracting the real "zero point" energy have to do with polarizing the vacuum, to change its index of refraction. The way to do this is by using extremely high electric field densities and gradients. I'm afraid the 2n3055 wouldn't survive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cj5T0zRALKc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLkgGkEzk0c

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Where's Van De Graff On This Board?
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2009, 07:21:49 AM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Where's Van De Graff On This Board?
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2009, 04:18:59 PM »
Here are a few still shots of my small VDG. I've made some improvements, and now it regularly gives 55 mm sparks, for an estimated 140 kV or so, every 5 or 6 seconds. The stress from the E-field is palpable for several feet in all directions. As a simple and cheap high-voltage source, that is also relatively safe, it can't be beat.

Offline DreamThinkBuild

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Re: Where's Van De Graff On This Board?
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2009, 08:04:32 PM »
@TinselKoala, great job on the setup.

Here is the simplest Van De Graff I could find. :)

http://scitoys.com/cgi-bin/board/show.cgi?tpc=1&post=22366#POST22366

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Re: Where's Van De Graff On This Board?
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2009, 08:04:32 PM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Where's Van De Graff On This Board?
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2009, 08:21:25 PM »
Ha!
 ;D
That's pretty good. A LEGO VDG. I wonder if the LEGO includes instructions for the machine.

But actually I know how to make an even simpler one. Just take a little dc motor, make a loop of silk thread, and dangle a small yo-yo shaped bit of metal from the loop, suspended from the motor shaft, over the edge of the table. Turn on the motor, so the "yo-yo" is spinning, hanging from the loop. Now you should be able to draw off a tiny little spark from the yo-yo.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Where's Van De Graff On This Board?
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2009, 08:55:11 PM »
I made this demo a few minutes ago, showing electrostatic oil jet ejection, which illustrates the power of the E-field to accelerate objects along the gradient. If anyone can give me advice as to how to make a better video of this phenomenon, I would be glad to hear it--lighting, background, etc.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxy4mPHIWFM

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Where's Van De Graff On This Board?
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2009, 08:55:11 PM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Where's Van De Graff On This Board?
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2009, 04:17:59 AM »
I put a bigger capacity on the top of the positive machine, and here is a video of it making some sparks.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLeRgo2dQn0

Offline the_big_m_in_ok

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Re: Where's Van De Graff On This Board?
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2009, 06:01:14 AM »
Clara Listensprechen said:
Quote
Where can I find on this board any discussion of Van De Graff? 
You can't.  This is the only thread; I checked.
But in order to make a Van De Graff generator work, there's a usually mechanical(read: motorized) means of generating static electricity in there somewhere.  That could take enough power from any other storage means to eliminate any OU.
There's always the Water Wheel, though.  Fill an airtight container with butane that's connected on the other side of an axle to an empty one, same size.  Immerse the butane-containinig one in hot water until the butane boils and then condenses in the opposite empty one.  Several on the axle will turn the axle by the off-centered weight and gravity's settling of the unbalance.  Efficiency is at least 90%, by one estimate 30 years ago in Popular Mechanics magazine.  Increase the wheel speed by a step-up set of gears and use that to power the Van De Graff motor.

Quote
Anybody else besides me think that the Van De Graff and the 2N3055 oughta get married?
50,000-100,000 VDC? would need to be stepped down to about 12 V to keep most transistors from frying.  Or wire several hundred in series to allow for more current-carrying capacity---if needed.

Van De Graff's are okay for collecting a charge using a capacitor.
Maybe the lightning power plant could be combined with the Van De Graff?
Lots of current in lightning, though.

--Lee

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Where's Van De Graff On This Board?
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2009, 06:01:14 AM »
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Offline onthecuttingedge2005

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Re: Where's Van De Graff On This Board?
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2009, 05:40:30 PM »
why not use a Carbon mesh belt on a Van De Graaf, the Carbon Mesh has more surface area to carry a greater charge. it should give it a higher density of charge delivery to the top load.

for instance, you can use several layers of Carbon mesh to form a thicker belt for even better charge density.

I think it would be even better than a pelletron if the belt was made right.

Jerry ;)

Offline the_big_m_in_ok

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Re: Where's Van De Graff On This Board?
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2009, 11:29:55 PM »
onthecuttingedge2005
Quote
why not use a Carbon mesh belt on a Van De Graaf, the Carbon Mesh has more surface area to carry a greater charge.
Sounds like a good idea to me.  But is it strong enough?  Is it prone to cracking; any kind of delamination?  Will it actually carry enough charge to be worthwhile?

@Clara  +  all others
Here's your Van De Graff discussion.
Why don't we "discuss?"  I don't know a lot about the system but there are patents.  Want to see some?  I always liked high voltage systems in general.

--Lee

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Where's Van De Graff On This Board?
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2009, 11:29:55 PM »
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Offline onthecuttingedge2005

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Re: Where's Van De Graff On This Board?
« Reply #11 on: August 17, 2009, 12:30:14 AM »
onthecuttingedge2005 Sounds like a good idea to me.  But is it strong enough?  Is it prone to cracking; any kind of delamination?  Will it actually carry enough charge to be worthwhile?

@Clara  +  all others
Here's your Van De Graff discussion.
Why don't we "discuss?"  I don't know a lot about the system but there are patents.  Want to see some?  I always liked high voltage systems in general.

--Lee

Hi Big M.

I have tons of Carbon mesh samples including Kevlar and Kevlar/Carbon fiber mixes, so long as you seal the edges of the Carbon Mesh you might not have any problems about fraying.

100% Carbon mesh is a semi conductor so it will hold a charge, I have used it in some minor Hydrogen Generator experiments.

you could buy a length of Carbon fiber and then fold it into a belt then have somebody sow the edges up real nice for you with some black thread. possibly make it with as many layers as possible.

some Carbon - Toray T300 3k is a sturdy weave, you can get tighter grade weaves than this though.

you may also want to try out some Kevlar/Carbon cross weave fiber mixes, Kevlar is a very sturdy fabric but is non conductive. you would still have to have the edges sown though.

since Carbon Fiber is used in some High Density Capacitors I think it would do very well as a Van De Graaf belt.

the Carbon mesh is flexible like cloth so it wont crack on you. it looks and feels just like jet black fiber glass cloth but its Carbon.

You would want to get thee tightest weave they have, it would be the best.

I think it would put any standard Van De Graaf and or a Pelletron to shame but it would have to be proven first.

I think cranking it up to 50k RPM's would be very exciting. I thought about using a small Fly back transformer to spray Electrons onto the belt at a faster rate but I have never done that before.

I think a Plasma fed Van De Graaf would probably be thee best you could make or get, if they even sell them that is.

Jerry ;)
« Last Edit: August 17, 2009, 01:17:00 AM by onthecuttingedge2005 »

Offline the_big_m_in_ok

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Re: Where's Van De Graff On This Board?
« Reply #12 on: August 17, 2009, 06:38:15 AM »
onthecuttingedge2005 said:
Quote
Hey Jerry,
100% Carbon mesh is a semi conductor so it will hold a charge, ...  since Carbon Fiber is used in some High Density Capacitors I think it would do very well as a Van De Graaf belt. ... the Carbon mesh is flexible like cloth so it wont crack on you. it looks and feels just like jet black fiber glass cloth but its Carbon. ...
Okay, I see your points.
We used woven cloth belts for a commercial-sized lumber saw at a carpentry shop I worked at once.  To keep the belt from drying out and splitting(cotton-based material, you know), we had to smear a special grease on it to moisten it.
Your material wouldn't suffer that fate, would they?

Quote
I think it would put any standard Van De Graaf and or a Pelletron to shame but it would have to be proven first.
I think cranking it up to 50k RPM's would be very exciting.
Pretty fast.  Do regular Van De Graff's spin internally that fast?  Is there a limit?

Quote
I thought about using a small Fly back transformer to spray Electrons onto the belt at a faster rate but I have never done that before.
Wouldn't that take up so much power, the efficiency would fall?

Quote
I think a Plasma fed Van De Graaf would probably be thee best you could make or get, if they even sell them that is.
How is that different or better than a regular Van De Graff?

--Lee

Offline onthecuttingedge2005

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Re: Where's Van De Graff On This Board?
« Reply #13 on: August 17, 2009, 07:28:48 AM »
onthecuttingedge2005 said:Okay, I see your points.
We used woven cloth belts for a commercial-sized lumber saw at a carpentry shop I worked at once.  To keep the belt from drying out and splitting(cotton-based material, you know), we had to smear a special grease on it to moisten it.
Your material wouldn't suffer that fate, would they?

Carbon fiber mesh is pretty tough stuff especially if it is multi-layered and tightly woven. but then again it may wear out if the brushes or combs are not shaped right, I think I would use a Carbon roller wheel as a brush that has a light tensioner spring on it to keep it against the belt, the Carbon contact wheel might not wear the belt out so quickly.

Quote
Pretty fast.  Do regular Van De Graff's spin internally that fast?  Is there a limit?

not all spin that fast but some people do because it's all about fast charging delivery, the faster the delivery the greater charge density per second if you have an efficient way of charging the belt fast enough, Pelletrons are really fast because they are chain driven and can handle higher RPM's than standard belts.

Quote
Wouldn't that take up so much power, the efficiency would fall?

some people use the fly backs to charge the belt because it eliminates the extra comb or brush in direct contact with the belt and increases the rate of charge density on the belt faster especially if the belt is at very high RPM's.

Quote
How is that different or better than a regular Van De Graff?

Highly ionized Plasma is pumped into a circulation system that comes in contact with the top load, it offers higher density charges per second and eliminates the combs or brushes and belts all together. This kind of Plasma Van De Graaf might be a little dangerous to play with, some physics labs have them and some can be quite complex. I think the proper term would be a Plasmatron of a sort rather than an actual Van De Graaf.

it's all about partical density & acceleration per sec per second. it would be kind of cool working in a cling wrap spooling room, hair raising experience!

Jerry ;)

Offline mscoffman

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Re: Where's Van De Graff On This Board?
« Reply #14 on: August 17, 2009, 09:42:57 PM »

A Van De Graf generator is just like a Wimhurst machine except that
a high voltage power supply injects an initial charge onto a belt.
Sometimes the high voltage supply is a Marx generator which is
multistage AC capacitors + diodes called a voltage multiplier.

Both machines then rotate the isolated charge around in the
environment and collect additional free electrons boosting the voltage
higher and higher. My feeling is that electrons should zap each other
away into freespace and if they don't, then a virtual force must be
present that allows them to collect like they do. So my feeling
is that these machines are inherently overunity in operation.

Scientific VDG machines are used to accelerate heavy ions for
studies such as formation of transuranium elements, while the the
magnetic form of accelerators is used to study details of
subatomic particles. 

My feeling is that carbon-fiber belts would not work if they are
overall conductive, since you want the charge points isolated to
build up voltage. Testatika machine used a black (probably
isolated carbon) ground plane disk because of the way charge
energy was removed by metal plates as AC rather then wear
prone brushes removing DC charge.

A Wimhurst Machine is probably better for direct energy generation
purposes because the Van De Graf generator produces extrememely
high voltages that then needs to be efficiently downconverted
to low voltage and high current for energy use.

:S:MarkSCoffman


 

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