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Author Topic: Ultracaps tested for excess energy  (Read 209767 times)

MileHigh

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Re: Ultracaps tested for excess energy
« Reply #330 on: December 12, 2009, 03:03:20 AM »
Albert:

In the 1000+ pages of the JT threads, did anyone ever run a test where they compared the running frequency of the JT while changing the number of turns of wire on each of the coils?  I would not be surprised if the test has been done, but I would also not be surprised if this test was not done.

I tried to find a good link for you about this but I could not.

Don't confuse the mechanical resonating frequency of the toroid with any electrical resonance, they are two different beasts.

Since I could not find a link for you, let's discuss the transistor ON time and OF time, because that defines the running frequency of the JT.

1.  Transistor ON time

When the transistor switches on, it starts energizing the drive coil, and then it switches off after the drive coil is nearly fully energized.  The larger the inductance of the drive coil, the longer it will take to fully energize the inductor.  Therefore, larger drive coil inductance equals lower JT frequency.

2.  Transistor OFF time

When the transistor switches off, current starts to flow through the trigger coil.  Eventually enough current is flowing through the transistor base input to switch on the transistor.  The moment this happens the transistor "snaps" on fully.

The larger the inductance of the trigger coil, the longer it will take to reach the point where there is enough base current going through the transistor initiate the "snap on" of the transistor.  Therefore, larger trigger coil inductance equals lower JT frequency.

So, how do you calculate the inductance of a coil of wire wrapped around a toroidal core?

Here is the link:

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/Hbase/magnetic/indtor.html

You can see that the inductance of the coil is dependent on the size and shape of the toroid and its magnetic permeability.  Most importantly, you can see that the inductance is proportional to the square of the number of turns of wire wrapped around the toroid.

Therefore, the more turns that you wind for the trigger and the firing coils of your JT, the lower the resonant frequency of the JT.   Certainly the dimensions and permeability of the toroid itself affect the resonant frequency.

So, the most important thing to remember here is that the toroid itself does not have a natural electrical resonating frequency, but it plays a part in determining the natural electrical resonating frequency of the system as a whole.  Changing the number of turns of wire in the trigger and firing coils will change the natural electrical resonating frequency of the JT.

Notice that link is from the "hyperphysics" series, which has a great wealth of information for experimenters.  It is worth it to "drill up to the top level" from the above link to check out the site.

In my searching, I found a great technical JT link with scope shots and Spice simulations for those that are interested:

http://www.prc68.com/I/JouleThief.shtml

MileHigh

MileHigh

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Re: Ultracaps tested for excess energy
« Reply #331 on: December 12, 2009, 03:05:37 AM »
Albert:

Quote
you have never heard a toroid or led sing . As can the wires and transistor sing as well . no kidding .

I believe you.  The real question is why do they sing?

MileHigh

innovation_station

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Re: Ultracaps tested for excess energy
« Reply #332 on: December 12, 2009, 03:16:50 AM »
MH

things must apply diffrently to air core ...

anyhow i wound my w core ...

here ya go this will piss fire ...  trigger 6"  pulse 24"  collector 18' 12gage solid  good for 600vac or dc
40 amp plus!  wire rateing ...   

w

gadgetmall

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Re: Ultracaps tested for excess energy
« Reply #333 on: December 12, 2009, 04:12:27 AM »
Nice Ist . i know it will piss fire . Use a good transistor better than 2n3055 . I bet a darlington 121 will make it go above 1000



Mh . O yes we are well aware of tuning a primary to a certain toroid . Jeanna and mark have gone into full details with volts  per turn .etc.. The toroid we are working on now is 3 38 inch and tuned with two  turns on the base and 10 on the collector  and 80 turns on the secondary light a cfl bulb with a one volt battery and a tip 3055 . That one ist has i blew 5 transistors last night and 4 leds . I only have 6 turn primary 2 wires wound togetehr  and a 7 turn secondary and it light 20 leds off the secondary and one from the b c on the transistor and another off the c e junction on the transistor .. Its a powerful core ! The most powerful i ever saw and it sings loud everywhere and everything on it sings .. I have high frequency hearing loss and i hear it good .
Albert . Check outthe last 4 pages on the second stage Jt circuits section

We are well aware of resonanate inductance and how to tell if a core is anygood or not . The bad one wount work no matter how many turns you wind // Thanks for the link. Interesting i like the current checker on each transistor idea .

innovation_station

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Re: Ultracaps tested for excess energy
« Reply #334 on: December 12, 2009, 03:17:42 PM »
Nice Ist . i know it will piss fire . Use a good transistor better than 2n3055 . I bet a darlington 121 will make it go above 1000



Mh . O yes we are well aware of tuning a primary to a certain toroid . Jeanna and mark have gone into full details with volts  per turn .etc.. The toroid we are working on now is 3 38 inch and tuned with two  turns on the base and 10 on the collector  and 80 turns on the secondary light a cfl bulb with a one volt battery and a tip 3055 . That one ist has i blew 5 transistors last night and 4 leds . I only have 6 turn primary 2 wires wound togetehr  and a 7 turn secondary and it light 20 leds off the secondary and one from the b c on the transistor and another off the c e junction on the transistor .. Its a powerful core ! The most powerful i ever saw and it sings loud everywhere and everything on it sings .. I have high frequency hearing loss and i hear it good .
Albert . Check outthe last 4 pages on the second stage Jt circuits section

We are well aware of resonanate inductance and how to tell if a core is anygood or not . The bad one wount work no matter how many turns you wind // Thanks for the link. Interesting i like the current checker on each transistor idea .

thanks bro

i was thinking something else i may try : ) : )

lol

and im sure you know what i mean ...  none the less i can fire it like a jt ... like a tpu .. or a magnifing amp ...

if i use mosfets ... i loose the trigger wire an FORCE FEED AT THE FREQ OF MY CHOISE

with a 4401 npn ...  im way off myscope ...  20mhz...   i call this VHF...  it will charge caps fast ...


any how on with it ... 

i wish i only had to learn basic tesla ... and simple coils ... but this journy goes light years beond that !

EYES ON THE SKYS ...  u will see much more !

w815H

b day aint far away ......   look to the sky!  upon this day!   i have herd .. sights shall be seen far and wide in the day time sky !



PaulLowrance

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Re: Ultracaps tested for excess energy
« Reply #335 on: December 12, 2009, 03:36:59 PM »

After trying a wide range or resistance, the best is about 15.5mA in and 8mA out, which is a bit over 50% efficient since the battery & UC voltages are about the same. The highest I've seen.
 
I'm confused about what you're saying. If the bcap & battery voltage are about the same, and the input current 13mA, and output current is 5mA, then that's 38% efficiency.

Yep. Yours is better . this is a plain Jane Jt at its worst and probably cause  i use 2 cent  china transistors . :)
 


Tried tuning the pot & capacitor together. Nothing much over 50% efficiency.

WilbyInebriated

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Re: Ultracaps tested for excess energy
« Reply #336 on: December 12, 2009, 04:08:04 PM »
Albert:

In the 1000+ pages of the JT threads, did anyone ever run a test where they compared the running frequency of the JT while changing the number of turns of wire on each of the coils?  I would not be surprised if the test has been done, but I would also not be surprised if this test was not done.

I tried to find a good link for you about this but I could not.

Don't confuse the mechanical resonating frequency of the toroid with any electrical resonance, they are two different beasts.

Since I could not find a link for you, let's discuss the transistor ON time and OF time, because that defines the running frequency of the JT.

1.  Transistor ON time

When the transistor switches on, it starts energizing the drive coil, and then it switches off after the drive coil is nearly fully energized.  The larger the inductance of the drive coil, the longer it will take to fully energize the inductor.  Therefore, larger drive coil inductance equals lower JT frequency.

2.  Transistor OFF time

When the transistor switches off, current starts to flow through the trigger coil.  Eventually enough current is flowing through the transistor base input to switch on the transistor.  The moment this happens the transistor "snaps" on fully.

The larger the inductance of the trigger coil, the longer it will take to reach the point where there is enough base current going through the transistor initiate the "snap on" of the transistor.  Therefore, larger trigger coil inductance equals lower JT frequency.

So, how do you calculate the inductance of a coil of wire wrapped around a toroidal core?

Here is the link:

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/Hbase/magnetic/indtor.html

You can see that the inductance of the coil is dependent on the size and shape of the toroid and its magnetic permeability.  Most importantly, you can see that the inductance is proportional to the square of the number of turns of wire wrapped around the toroid.

Therefore, the more turns that you wind for the trigger and the firing coils of your JT, the lower the resonant frequency of the JT.   Certainly the dimensions and permeability of the toroid itself affect the resonant frequency.

So, the most important thing to remember here is that the toroid itself does not have a natural electrical resonating frequency, but it plays a part in determining the natural electrical resonating frequency of the system as a whole.  Changing the number of turns of wire in the trigger and firing coils will change the natural electrical resonating frequency of the JT.

Notice that link is from the "hyperphysics" series, which has a great wealth of information for experimenters.  It is worth it to "drill up to the top level" from the above link to check out the site.

In my searching, I found a great technical JT link with scope shots and Spice simulations for those that are interested:

http://www.prc68.com/I/JouleThief.shtml

MileHigh

if you are so interested that you feel the need to comment, why don't you have the interest to read the jt thread? all you're doing is repeating what has been said before... show a little respect instead of pompous pedantism and actually read the thread you THINK you know all about. if you actually had read the jt thread, you would find your www.prc68.com link ON PAGE 3!!!
"for those that are interested..." ::) good grief milehigh, those that are interested, have or do actually read the thread.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2009, 06:34:37 PM by WilbyInebriated »

gadgetmall

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Re: Ultracaps tested for excess energy
« Reply #337 on: December 12, 2009, 05:58:05 PM »
I knew it looked familiar . Yes he not helping because the real deal is building and experiments . That tells all and there are Still unexplained territories in the Jt field being discovered everyday .

Paul  Try Different transistors like 2n3904 2n2222 2n2222a tip3055 2n3055 mps 05 mps o6 and a whole lot more have been experimented  with Including darlingtons which can output twice the current  but takes a bit more to run them . We have also experimented   or at least i have  with two transistor npn pnp and small inductors using no toroid at all . Using Nails ,washers ,wires, iron  you name it its been done all at the JT thread !. Wish someone would Compile it into a book . I would buy it  cause its some good reading when the internet fails .
gadget 

innovation_station

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Re: Ultracaps tested for excess energy
« Reply #338 on: December 12, 2009, 06:09:55 PM »
i told T to write the book perhaps she has ...

i dont know....

w

btw gadget ..  my 6 freq 555 fired fet  mac switch can go fast ...  and handle pnp and npn in sync .. and i get recovery off the relay coils ... : )

yes i have built toooooo many things ... I CAN TUNE TO 1 FUN AND 5 HARMONICS SHOULD I CHOOSE .


no limits...

i have 3 fiber nodes now ...  i can fire  fast ... should i choose ... and 25 large 1MHZ - 1GHZ RF AMPS ...


Vortex1

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Re: Ultracaps tested for excess energy
« Reply #339 on: December 12, 2009, 06:46:02 PM »
1000 pages, 1000 monkeys, 1000 typewriters.....not a hint of real applied engineering principles.

Read some good books on switchmode power design.......graduate from electronics 101

WilbyInebriated

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Re: Ultracaps tested for excess energy
« Reply #340 on: December 12, 2009, 06:59:20 PM »
1000 pages, 1000 monkeys, 1000 typewriters.....not a hint of real applied engineering principles.

Read some good books on switchmode power design.......graduate from electronics 101
i'm not quite sure how to read your insult... are you saying that the www.prc68.com link has no hints of 'real applied engineering principles'? if so, then you are calling milehigh a monkey? if not, does that make you a monkey then? furthermore, one invective pedagogue is more than enough... ::)

regardless of whatever foot you stick in your mouth, this thread is about testing ultracaps is it not? try to at least be on topic with your pedantic vituperation...

gadgetmall

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Re: Ultracaps tested for excess energy
« Reply #341 on: December 12, 2009, 07:25:33 PM »
1000 pages, 1000 monkeys, 1000 typewriters.....not a hint of real applied engineering principles.

Read some good books on switch mode power design.......graduate from electronics 101
Another Creep who can't read and won't get his hands dirty.You need to study OU 101 Then you might learn something  besides sounding like parrots !!


Paul . Where you . SHopping ? WEll i'll get up with you later  im going to own and buy some stuff and see if i can find some  Ni/mh D cells .

Gadget
« Last Edit: December 12, 2009, 08:09:17 PM by gadgetmall »

innovation_station

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Re: Ultracaps tested for excess energy
« Reply #342 on: December 12, 2009, 07:30:35 PM »
it almost smells of richard ...

lol

no...  vortex ...  hummmm

maybe

ist!

gadgetmall

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Re: Ultracaps tested for excess energy
« Reply #343 on: December 12, 2009, 07:57:47 PM »
it almost smells of richard ...

lol

no...  vortex ...  hummmm

maybe

ist!
are you talking about Richard of Magnacoaster ? no not him . I know him .
.

Vortex1

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Re: Ultracaps tested for excess energy
« Reply #344 on: December 12, 2009, 08:01:37 PM »
Quote
invective pedagogue

Quote
pedantic vituperation

 ho hummmm.....yawn.....