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Author Topic: Ultracaps tested for excess energy  (Read 209753 times)

PaulLowrance

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Re: Ultracaps tested for excess energy
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2009, 01:10:09 AM »
Yucca,

I don't have substantial proof yet, but the present data does suggest > cop 1. It's possible there's something very odd going on with the ultracap, which could explain the data, and thus show no excess energy, but this effect is unknown as far as I'm aware. So in the least, we'll learn something interesting about these caps.

Paul

Yucca

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Re: Ultracaps tested for excess energy
« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2009, 01:14:48 AM »
Yucca,

I don't have proof yet, but the present data does suggest > cop 1.

Paul

Well I hope the apparent capacitance variances are indicative of excess charge and not just some peculiarity of the cap. I´m pleased it´s you paul because one thing I´m certain of is that you will be honest and truthful in your findings unlike some other charlatan carpet baggers I could mention.

p.s.
maybe you havent read my above post because I think I edited it while you were reading unedited?

broli

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Re: Ultracaps tested for excess energy
« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2009, 01:20:36 AM »
PL is there a reason you avoided my post?

Yucca

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Re: Ultracaps tested for excess energy
« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2009, 01:25:14 AM »
So in the least, we'll learn something interesting about these caps.

Paul

Yes, with your good measurements and objective reporting we will learn about the behaviour of these interesting caps. They have TREMENDOUS plate area thanks to the microstructure of the carbon, no doubt casimir forces are quite strong in some nooks and crannies.

P.S.
I´m a little disheartened that Poynt99 was banned, and so the subject holds some emotional charge.

PaulLowrance

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Re: Ultracaps tested for excess energy
« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2009, 02:04:33 AM »
Hi Broli,

Sorry, I didn't see a question in your post. I agree with what you said. The data logger should be able to log far faster than 100Hz. Probably several KHz, but I may not go that high. That's, what, nearly a gigabyte @ 20 bytes per log in 5 hours! So far the data logger is not working. My ADC0809 might be bad.
 
Paul
 

MileHigh

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Re: Ultracaps tested for excess energy
« Reply #20 on: December 01, 2009, 02:49:40 AM »
Paul:

I looked at the ADC0809.  Is it set up to convert from 0 to 5 volts or did you change the Vref+ and possibly the Vref-?  For the sake of argument let's assume assume that the A/D converter sweeps from 0 to 5 volts.  5/256 = 19.5 millivolts per digital step.  In addition, the A/D error is +/- one least-significant bit.

The numbers above don't add up so did you change the A/D sweep range?

Here is my main point:  The accuracy of the A/D conversion depends on the programmable A/D sweep range and the fact that the built-in ADC error is +/- one least-significant bit.  Then this has to be related back to your very small delta-V which is typically 10 millivolts.

It is possible that your ability to measure a 10 milivolt change with the ADC0809 is +/-3% or +/-40%, it all depends on the ADC sweep range and the size of the delta-V you are trying to measure.  Can you clarify this issue?

Just the inherent inaccuracy in your ability to measure a 10 millivolt change in voltage ADC0809 can explain your fluctuations in capacitor value calculations.

What about your current source?  Are you using a bench power supply in current source mode and running that through a multimeter on current measurement?  What is your error margin here?

I am just trying to understand your measurement setup.

MileHigh

Pirate88179

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Re: Ultracaps tested for excess energy
« Reply #21 on: December 01, 2009, 03:03:18 AM »
Paul:

Just do you tests and ignore the peanut gallery.  If it is so, then we will know, if not, we will know that too.  I have faith in you.

As I have always said for the past year, these caps are different but, I kept getting comments on how much I don't know about caps, etc.  Well they are different and, I think you have seen that, at least as a possibility, as well.

I like interacting with folks that have open minds.  poynt was banned because he posted nothing but negative comments and also, many private pm's to Stefan from members here and abused his moderator privileges.

Carry on and we will see what is what.  If your tests should still indicate OU then, I am sure it can be evaluated by others and confirmed, or not.

Like I have said, these caps are "different", and we shall see.

Bill

MileHigh

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Re: Ultracaps tested for excess energy
« Reply #22 on: December 01, 2009, 03:03:43 AM »
Paul:

Quote
Using the example, the energy required to charge to capacitor to say 1V is 0.5 * 550F * 1V^2 = 275 joules. The energy gained is 0.5 * 5500F * 1V^2 = 2750 joules. Ten times the energy gain.

The above example is a hypothetical example and not from your data.

You are wrong here.  If the capacitance of the capacitor is dynamic and can somehow change with respect to time (to be determined what the speculated change mechanism is) then this will not be indicative of an increase in stored energy.

Yucca made the following statement wherein lies the answer:

Quote
Well I hope the apparent capacitance variances are indicative of excess charge and not just some peculiarity of the cap.

There is no mechanism in the experiment for there to be any excess charge.  You have complete control over the amount of charge stored in the capacitor with your timed current source.

If the capacitance of the setup is indeed dynamic with respect to time and increases, then this increasing capacitance will cause a decrease in the voltage across the capacitor.  Your example above is incorrect, the voltage will NOT remain at 1 volts if somehow the capacitance increases tenfold.  The voltage will simply decrease so that the amount of energy in the capacitor remains the same.  This test looks like a dead-end to me.

I will repeat my challenge to everyone again:  Try to suggest an alternative method for the apparent increase in measured capacitance in Paul's data.

MileHigh

MileHigh

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Re: Ultracaps tested for excess energy
« Reply #23 on: December 01, 2009, 03:10:15 AM »
Bill:

With respect, don't call me the "peanut gallery."  You seem to have a strong desire to stifle opinion, which is the antithesis of what this place is all about.  I am trying to HELP Paul understand what is going on and your comments are not appropriate.  This is not a Joule Thief thread and discussing the accuracy of his measurements is absolutely relevant to what is going on here.  Dismissing this as a "peanut gallery" comment is just another form of book burning.

There is nothing special about supercaps and Paul's testing can help confirm this.

MileHigh

Pirate88179

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Re: Ultracaps tested for excess energy
« Reply #24 on: December 01, 2009, 03:20:43 AM »
MH:

"There is nothing special about supercaps"  Again, this is quoted from your post.  You say it like it is law.  Talk about book burning.  This fellow Paul is trying to determine what is what and was big enough to say that he sees something unusual.  He does not have an agenda, and neither do I.  We just want to find out the truth but yet, you again post your posit as if it were proven, which it has not been.

Also, I did not refer to anyone in particular with my peanut gallery comment but, evidently you thought I meant you.  That is another one of your assumptions.

What I meant by that was....just let this guy do his work, which he is doing for free, on his own time, for his own reasons, and then we will see what he comes up with.  If the results do not match what you THINK you know about supercaps, then we can discuss other ways to verify or reverse his findings.  This is the way of science.

Gadget, and I have postulated that these caps are different, you say no.  Fine.  You still might be right.  We will see.  I have an open mind and I suggest you consider that option as well.  In other words, let the man do his tests and if you don't think he did them right, do your own and post your results.

Bill

MileHigh

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Re: Ultracaps tested for excess energy
« Reply #25 on: December 01, 2009, 03:25:52 AM »
Bill:

Forget the verbal ping-pong.  You did not want me to express my ideas to Paul and I am telling you to stop this.

Also, if the proposition is that there is something special about supercaps then the burden of proof rests with those that claim this.  Plus they have to define what "something special" is, and back it up with measurements, and ideally suggest a model that can explain the alleged observed phenomena.  There is no burden of proof required when saying that supercaps are just another form of capacitor.

MileHigh
« Last Edit: December 01, 2009, 03:48:02 AM by MileHigh »

Pirate88179

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Re: Ultracaps tested for excess energy
« Reply #26 on: December 01, 2009, 03:32:58 AM »
Bill:

Forget the verbal ping-pong.  You did not want me to express my ideas to Paul and I am telling you to stop this.

MileHigh

What is verbal ping-pong about me saying let the man do the tests his way?  Again, if you don't agree with his methods, do your own tests.  What is so difficult about that?  I would love to see your evaluation of these caps.  Then your results could be compared to Paul's.  If there is a difference, we can then explore why.  I have seen this difference with my experiments so I suspect it is there.  But, if hard science and good testing says no, that's fine.  Then I must look for another way to explain my results, which I will then do.

I suggest you wait and see what the result are.  If Paul needs your help, I am sure he will ask for it.

Bill

WilbyInebriated

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Re: Ultracaps tested for excess energy
« Reply #27 on: December 01, 2009, 03:35:04 AM »
Bill:

With respect, don't call me the "peanut gallery."  You seem to have a strong desire to stifle opinion, which is the antithesis of what this place is all about.  I am trying to HELP Paul understand what is going on and your comments are not appropriate.  This is not a Joule Thief thread and discussing the accuracy of his measurements is absolutely relevant to what is going on here.  Dismissing this as a "peanut gallery" comment is just another form of book burning.

There is nothing special about supercaps and Paul's testing can help confirm this.

MileHigh
your opinion, milehigh, is just that, an opinion... and just what is this place all about? opinions? i think you are mistaken...
where is your experiment? where are your measurements? all you have is assumption and conjecture and opinion. which by the way we have heard again and again. we know what your opinion is, what we would like to know is where your experiment is and what your measurements are.

paul has enough knowledge to test it properly, why don't you put your money where your mouth is and help out by doing your own experiment, which as bill so astutely noted, can then be compared...

MileHigh

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Re: Ultracaps tested for excess energy
« Reply #28 on: December 01, 2009, 03:42:18 AM »
Paul is posting his results to discuss them with others and exchange ideas, which is what this place is all about.

Do you have something to say about Paul's test Bill and Wilby?  If yes please post and we can discuss it.

Note that Paul has already posted some results.

MileHigh

Pirate88179

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Re: Ultracaps tested for excess energy
« Reply #29 on: December 01, 2009, 03:46:49 AM »
MH:

I already did.  I said let him do his tests and we will see.  Look, this is Paul's topic and I don't want you to try to turn it into a shooting match, OK?  Wait for his results, or do your own tests with what you call "The right way", and then we will all know.  As I said, if Paul needs your help, I am sure he will ask for your opinions.  Until then, please, let's just see what he comes up with.  This is simple.

Bill