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Author Topic: Ultracaps tested for excess energy  (Read 178851 times)

Offline PaulLowrance

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Ultracaps tested for excess energy
« on: November 30, 2009, 06:47:01 PM »
Hi,

A few users indicated that ultracapacitors, particularly the Maxwell boostcaps (BCAP0650) might produce excess energy. Hence the purpose of this thread.

This thread is a continuation from,

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3457.msg211465#msg211465


The ultracap measurements are found at,

http://globalfreeenergy.info/tag/ultracap/

I've posted on the measurements for charging the ultracap. Days ago I took measurements on discharging the ultracap, and the results were so out of this world, if you will, that I'm going to hold back on posting the data until further experiments. IOW, I don't want to be caught saying these ultracaps produce excess energy, if they don't.  :)

So hopefully today the final ultracap testing will begin. For the moment, my old DIY data logger is broken, so I'm trying to fix it. Everything else is ready, which will consist of *slowly* charging the bcap0650 at ~ 22mA for about 4 hours, then it will be discharged up to 1A. All of the current & voltage will be data logged, which will be used to calculate COP.

Regards,
Paul

Offline Pirate88179

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Re: Ultracaps tested for excess energy
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2009, 07:27:39 PM »
Paul:

I am very glad you are doing these tests.  No matter what the results, we will all benefit from what is learned here.

Thanks,

Bill

Offline powercat

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Re: Ultracaps tested for excess energy
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2009, 07:48:07 PM »
Hi Paul
The measurements on your website are looking promising,it is looking like you are going to confirm there is excess energy.
Great work
cat

Offline PaulLowrance

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Re: Ultracaps tested for excess energy
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2009, 08:24:27 PM »
Thanks. If it does not show excess E, then some people may not believe me. So I'll welcome others to do the tests, which are easy to do. You only need a data logger, which can be built from a cheap ADC (few $), a 555 timer, a parallel port cable (the old printer cables) that will goes to your Windows PC.

I'll provide the Windows source code (MSVC++), and the .exe if people want it. And there you go, a data logger.  :)

What if it is > cop 1?  This forum is scary! Who knows who's lurking here, just waiting for the first detailed data on the smoking gun. Seriously, it would take someone a few minutes to find my home address!

Regards,
Paul

Offline powercat

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Re: Ultracaps tested for excess energy
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2009, 08:34:21 PM »
Paul
I know you worry about your security, but all you are doing is testing someone else's idea you have not invented anything, in this case.

If you really are that worried Then send the information to Stefan.

cat

Offline PaulLowrance

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Re: Ultracaps tested for excess energy
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2009, 09:07:42 PM »
Actually for now all I'm testing is an ultracapacitor, not someones circuit. Gadgets & other people have said these caps are OU.

Paul

Offline Kator01

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Re: Ultracaps tested for excess energy
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2009, 09:44:04 PM »
Hi,

some member in this thread :http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=7987.480

 posted a document on low-loss-charging of capacitors.

In the file attached one should read first the reference-document of Heinrich which was the first report on this phaenomenon.8 See first reference at the end of this file

Regards

Kator01

Offline powercat

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Re: Ultracaps tested for excess energy
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2009, 10:08:30 PM »
Paul,from the testing so far
you are saying that you get better results when the capacitor is warm  :o
how many times have we seen circuits that gives off heat, which normally has no use at all

I wonder how much heat the capacitor can take before it loses its maximum benefit

cat

Offline gadgetmall

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Re: Ultracaps tested for excess energy
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2009, 10:09:11 PM »
Actually for now all I'm testing is an ultracapacitor, not someones circuit. Gadgets & other people have said these caps are OU.

Paul
You are Not alone . Go ahead and Say what your numbers represent . I will take the Rap. It was just a matter of time until someone actually used these bcaps for other than tank cranking and regenerative braking . So what if this opens the door to a home generator that powers it self . Your numbers indicate i was right >1  is an understatement : I respect you Analysis  and now welcome you to Join our team . Thank you for taking your time to explain these fascinating energy storage devices . They also work on Bedinis as both the run and the charge . Just swap and it tells all . If you made the Proper capture circuit . We are busy making a new coil to increase  or decrease charging time on a simple Jt . the effect can be increased by using a tip3055 transistor and a darlington . Also keep in mind that the Bcaps can be charged any number of ways ,solar ,jt ,bedeni , newman , what ever . I was already approached By unknowns who offered me a great amount of money to stop My e-light research . I refused . They know My address already . Black Helicopters regularly hover and buzz over My house .. Very loud and uncomfortable . this is why I went open source on this information so you guys can at least know how its possible and scalable .

Gadget 

Offline PaulLowrance

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Re: Ultracaps tested for excess energy
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2009, 10:51:21 PM »
Hi cat,
 
 Yes, the capacitance has so far increases at what I'd call an alarming rate with respect to even a slight temperature increase. What if you had a capacitor that was say 550F when you charged it, but was say 5500F when you discharged it?  ;) ;)   I'd call that excess energy.

Hi gadget,

Good to see you around. I agree there are probably a lot of ways to use these bcaps. It will be interesting to see how things go over the next month.


Paul
 

Offline Mannix

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Re: Ultracaps tested for excess energy
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2009, 11:09:47 PM »
The proof of excess can only be proven beyond doubt to be useful  by using one charged cap and transfer charge to others ..then back to the origional
It sounds simple but we have to remove thermal loss.

The measurements look fantastic but they must be of practical use.
We know so little about the limits of our theory

What ever you do, start with one charged cap

Nice to see you have opened up Paul
 

Great work



Offline MileHigh

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Re: Ultracaps tested for excess energy
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2009, 11:59:23 PM »
Paul:

May I ask what were you using to measure the voltage and the current for your setup?  Is it some sort of microcontroller-based setup and you are using the A/D in the microcontroller?

Also, how are you measuring the capacitance?  It's a serious question, you are not indicating how you are doing it.

I can see a possible alternative explanation for your observations.  I ask you, and everyone reading this thread to look again at Paul's data again and try to come up with an alternative explanation.  It's a challenge.

Quote
If confirmed, then it appears the bcap behaves as if it has less capacitance when high current is used. When the bcap was charged at 199mA, the capacitance was 535F. So if we place a load across the bcap and drain it at 42.1mA, would it have 632F? If true, then it indicates excess energy.

You have me puzzled here Paul.  Why would this indicate excess energy?  Again, this is a serious question, how do you arrive at this conclusion?

MileHigh

Offline broli

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Re: Ultracaps tested for excess energy
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2009, 12:09:17 AM »
PL it seems you have the means to go all out. I think you should do a few high resolution tests. Meaning sampling voltage and current every hundreds of a second and plotting it. So you take C=I*t/V and make dC=I*dt/V out of it. This way you can get a very accurate graph of the behaviour of the capacitance during the charging period and maybe learn the exact behavior even better and exploit that.

Offline PaulLowrance

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Re: Ultracaps tested for excess energy
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2009, 12:52:02 AM »
Paul:

May I ask what were you using to measure the voltage and the current for your setup?  Is it some sort of microcontroller-based setup and you are using the A/D in the microcontroller?

Also, how are you measuring the capacitance?  It's a serious question, you are not indicating how you are doing it.

I can see a possible alternative explanation for your observations.  I ask you, and everyone reading this thread to look again at Paul's data again and try to come up with an alternative explanation.  It's a challenge.

Measurements taken from last week were simple. A current source was placed on the ultracap, and it was timed how long it took for the ultracap voltage to change by a certain amount. The equation is,

F = I * t / dV

where F is the capacitance in farads, I is DC current, t is time, and dV is the change in voltage.

These experiments were done at a slow rate. The ultracap voltage changed less than 0.1mV after removing the current, except a few cases where it changed by ~ 0.1mV, which is negligible relative to dV.

The recent measurements, days ago, on discharging the ultracap is a different story. I'll talk about this after the data logging.

The data logger I'll be using for now is a DIY circuit. It consists of a simple 8 channel ADC0809 with appropriate circuit connected to a PC parallel port. PC software will log the data on hard drive.




You have me puzzled here Paul.  Why would this indicate excess energy?  Again, this is a serious question, how do you arrive at this conclusion?

It's conventional physics,

E = 0.5 * C * V^2

Using the example, the energy required to charge to capacitor to say 1V is 0.5 * 550F * 1V^2 = 275 joules. The energy gained is 0.5 * 5500F * 1V^2 = 2750 joules. Ten times the energy gain.



Paul

Offline Yucca

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Re: Ultracaps tested for excess energy
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2009, 12:56:20 AM »
Yo Paul,

I don´t see any solid data to support OU claims in this area yet, do you?

Maybe the whole boost cap thing is just an advertisement to sell caps.

I have vouched $500 toward the OU prize money, at the moment I think my money is safe lol. Of course nothing would please me more than to see Stefan validate GMs bodacious claim.

With regard to your RC timings indicating varying capacitance, I agree you need to use higher constant charging currents and also over a wider voltage range from say 0.5V to 2V. Also use a stout 10 ohm resistor to time the discharge over a data logger or slowtimebase DSO to audit the caps energy.

If, (and thats a big if), any magic is happening then I suspect short sharp pulse charging might encourage it.