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Author Topic: Window Motor Doubles Voltage At The Power Supply [Overunity ?]  (Read 14693 times)

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Window Motor Doubles Voltage At The Power Supply [Overunity ?]
« Reply #30 on: November 23, 2009, 11:57:28 PM »
Hi John,

I have had a look at the PS schematics. It is a decent linear PS with pass transistors and control + reference circuits as such linear PSs have been designed for long, before the switched mode PS era. It has a separate board for the 3 digit digital panel meter and this senses the output voltage directly between the + and - ports, current is sensed by watching the voltage drop across a series shunt resistor.  This digital meter works like a DMM (digital multimeter) except it has a maximum input voltage range of 50-60V or so.
So this built in digital meter is able to measure the voltage level whatever is either set by the front panel control or as in your case the PS output + your motor combination makes the output voltage level increase up to 41-42V and the meter also shows that.

I do not recommend any tests which would connect series batteries onto the output of this PS, even if the PS were unplugged. This is true for any such PSs, damage can easily occur in the inside circuits, especially when an inductive load like your motor can 'bang' the output ports with inductive spikes due to the switching.

Would like to ask if your motor circuit is a normal H bridge made with MOSFET or bipolar transistor switches? and where the diode bridge is exactly connected, together with your feedback switch, if you happen to have a rough schematic drawing, it could be of further help.

rgds, Gyula

EDIT: Just read what Magluvin wrote and I fully agree with him.

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Offline DadHav

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Re: Window Motor Doubles Voltage At The Power Supply [Overunity ?]
« Reply #31 on: November 28, 2009, 06:06:20 AM »
Gyula. I would like to thank you and everyone else who has commented on the video. I have had time to try some of the suggestions and have to agree that the power supply is causing the voltage increase due to the unusual characteristics of the motor and circuit. After installing capacitors and the diode the motor acted normal as everyone was expecting. I'm sorry for taking up so much of everyones time, but am happy to have met some helpful interested people here. I probably should get the video off of the Tube. Maybe I'll hang around a little bit to see what I might learn.
Oh sorry, You asked about the circuit. This is the typical Bedini Full Wave Sequential Bipolar Circuit that is published most everywhere.
DadHav/John H

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Window Motor Doubles Voltage At The Power Supply [Overunity ?]
« Reply #32 on: November 28, 2009, 02:47:58 PM »
Dear John,

thanks for reporting back.

Would you mind confirming whether the DC voltage across the second capacitor after the diode (lumen indicated it as an optional cap in his drawing) increases with your switch on?
This would make your test the most informative and complete.

Thanks, Gyula

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Re: Window Motor Doubles Voltage At The Power Supply [Overunity ?]
« Reply #32 on: November 28, 2009, 02:47:58 PM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: Window Motor Doubles Voltage At The Power Supply [Overunity ?]
« Reply #33 on: November 28, 2009, 04:17:01 PM »
hey Dadhav
Actually maybe keep the vid up and make a vid of the correction for others to learn from.  It would be interesting to see the measurement of the capacitor with the turbo switch on/off. The pulses that were getting back to the PS would show up in the cap.
What were the values of the caps you used?
Also, was the window motor a bifilar with the pickup coil? Still like that motor. =]
Mags

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Window Motor Doubles Voltage At The Power Supply [Overunity ?]
« Reply #34 on: November 28, 2009, 04:23:29 PM »
Also to show if there is a difference in current output from the PS with the switch on and off.

Mags

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Re: Window Motor Doubles Voltage At The Power Supply [Overunity ?]
« Reply #34 on: November 28, 2009, 04:23:29 PM »
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Offline DadHav

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Re: Window Motor Doubles Voltage At The Power Supply [Overunity ?]
« Reply #35 on: November 28, 2009, 10:53:01 PM »
OK Guys. Let me fill you in on what tests I made. I have a few days to experiment before leaving again. I put a 37,000 mfd cap across the power supply terminals. I have a 1 amp diode between the supply and the motor circuit on the plus side. I have a 37,000 mfd 40 volt cap across the inputs of the circuit boare after the diode.
The circuit is the standard full wave sequential bipolar. only one trigger is being used the other is not connected. There is a switch on the board to return the voltage from the bridge back to the input or switch it to an external plug. the motor is 400 ft 400 turns trifiler; two triggers with #32 and one power coil #23, six magnets; two pound steel rotor.

OK with the diode in the circuit the motor runs more like it was on a battery. Under normal running conditions the the motor likes 20 -40 ma while at the 20 volt range. If I tune the circuit to run at 100 - 200 ma the motor has surprising torque.
First test: Power supply voltage 20 v @ 20 ma; Motor RPM=1750; Voltage on PS cap=20 volts; Voltage on circuit input cap=19.75 (normal IMO) Note the return switch is in the external position. A 37,000 mfd cap on the external output charges to 50 volts with some authority considering only drawing 20 ma; a 1.0 mfd 200 volt cap will charge to 75 volts instantly.
Second test: I disconnected the capacitor on the input of the circuit board after the diode; The RPM increased to 2112 RPM; The voltage on the power supply cap was 20 volts; the current draw went to 30 ma; The voltage measurement after the diode was 35.7 volts.
Third test: I placed the 1.0 mfd cap after the diode across the circuit board input; The motor increased in speed to 2670 RPM; the capacitor on the power supply was 20 volts; the current went to 40 ma on the power supply.
The motor in this combination ran smoother than ever before. It also ran from the capacitor on the power supply for a few minutes before stopping when the supply was turned off. I tried the same tests on a different make supply and they came out the same, although I didn't check the ma draw yet while on another sorce.
Maybe a few scope shots will be helpful. I haven't tried a picture yet. Let's see what happens. In case they don't work, what I saw was 20 volts dead solid before the diode, but after the diode there was quite a nice signal going an additional 30 to 40 volts above the 20 volt base line. This must have been what was getting back into the power supply to cause the anomaly. The pattern changed considerably with the small capacitor on it.

Offline dankie

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Re: Window Motor Doubles Voltage At The Power Supply [Overunity ?]
« Reply #36 on: November 28, 2009, 11:30:58 PM »
Very unusual scopeshots .

The drop time seems to be going backwards . And what is that double bump ?

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Re: Window Motor Doubles Voltage At The Power Supply [Overunity ?]
« Reply #36 on: November 28, 2009, 11:30:58 PM »
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Offline DadHav

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Re: Window Motor Doubles Voltage At The Power Supply [Overunity ?]
« Reply #37 on: November 29, 2009, 01:46:19 AM »
Keep in mind the scope is on the input side of the full wave circuit. Are you thinking about an h wave like the SSG circuit?
John

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Window Motor Doubles Voltage At The Power Supply [Overunity ?]
« Reply #38 on: November 29, 2009, 03:23:56 PM »
Hi John,

Many thanks for performing and sharing these tests. I do think now that the PS you use was malfunctioning whenever the output pulses or the rest of them via the diode bridge managed to foul the control circuits of the PS (when your turbo switch was on) and this manifested in an increased output voltage.
And Magluvin was right in saying the back emf (and if I may add the induced voltages at the switch off instants) were the main cause of the output pulses and these went back into the PS unavoidably via the switch.  The series diode (a one way switch) blocks the return of the pulses to the PS or any other source.  In case of operating the motor from a battery, there is no control circuit in it, so no problem from the created pulses, they dissipate in the battery.

I would ask and suggest two things.  In your test #1 with either the 37000uF or 1uF capacitor on the external output (turbo switch is off), what happens to the motor 20mA running current when you place a few kiloOhm resistor across the external output as a load? Will the overall 20mA motor current change and in what direction? 
My suggestion would be to your test #3 when you found that with only a 1uF capacitor after the diode you got the biggest rpm and smooth operation.  I think you could experiment here with a capacitor bank to find the "sweet" point i.e. the best cap value for the whole setup. This would involve a certain resonance case and a match between the rpm and your coil + best capacitor parallel resonant circuit combination.  This sounds like Hector's rotoverter circuit and I think it would be like that. The only drawback is when you load the motor shaft the resonant condition detunes and it ought to be retuned to the load's need again.

Thanks, Gyula

OK Guys. Let me fill you in on what tests I made. I have a few days to experiment before leaving again. I put a 37,000 mfd cap across the power supply terminals. I have a 1 amp diode between the supply and the motor circuit on the plus side. I have a 37,000 mfd 40 volt cap across the inputs of the circuit boare after the diode.
The circuit is the standard full wave sequential bipolar. only one trigger is being used the other is not connected. There is a switch on the board to return the voltage from the bridge back to the input or switch it to an external plug. the motor is 400 ft 400 turns trifiler; two triggers with #32 and one power coil #23, six magnets; two pound steel rotor.

OK with the diode in the circuit the motor runs more like it was on a battery. Under normal running conditions the the motor likes 20 -40 ma while at the 20 volt range. If I tune the circuit to run at 100 - 200 ma the motor has surprising torque.
First test: Power supply voltage 20 v @ 20 ma; Motor RPM=1750; Voltage on PS cap=20 volts; Voltage on circuit input cap=19.75 (normal IMO) Note the return switch is in the external position. A 37,000 mfd cap on the external output charges to 50 volts with some authority considering only drawing 20 ma; a 1.0 mfd 200 volt cap will charge to 75 volts instantly.
Second test: I disconnected the capacitor on the input of the circuit board after the diode; The RPM increased to 2112 RPM; The voltage on the power supply cap was 20 volts; the current draw went to 30 ma; The voltage measurement after the diode was 35.7 volts.
Third test: I placed the 1.0 mfd cap after the diode across the circuit board input; The motor increased in speed to 2670 RPM; the capacitor on the power supply was 20 volts; the current went to 40 ma on the power supply.
The motor in this combination ran smoother than ever before. It also ran from the capacitor on the power supply for a few minutes before stopping when the supply was turned off. I tried the same tests on a different make supply and they came out the same, although I didn't check the ma draw yet while on another sorce.
Maybe a few scope shots will be helpful. I haven't tried a picture yet. Let's see what happens. In case they don't work, what I saw was 20 volts dead solid before the diode, but after the diode there was quite a nice signal going an additional 30 to 40 volts above the 20 volt base line. This must have been what was getting back into the power supply to cause the anomaly. The pattern changed considerably with the small capacitor on it.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Window Motor Doubles Voltage At The Power Supply [Overunity ?]
« Reply #38 on: November 29, 2009, 03:23:56 PM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: Window Motor Doubles Voltage At The Power Supply [Overunity ?]
« Reply #39 on: November 30, 2009, 03:54:26 AM »
Ok guys, Just uploaded a vid with a funtional 2nd stage running off of the 1st stage bemf, and charging an old 12v 7ah bat off of the 2nd stage bemf.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nXxvAQ_mdUk

I am letting the battery charge to see where it comes up to.
I am very happy with this setup. =]

Magluvin

 

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