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Author Topic: Joule Thief  (Read 16901 times)

Offline poynt99

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Joule Thief
« on: November 28, 2009, 04:36:12 AM »
Measurements and claims discussion on all forms of the JT.

This is a rebuild of the JT topic after Stefan messed up and merged this original thread and one that was started afterward because I did not allow the whining and BS for which Wilby is famous and evidently has a real knack for.

.99
« Last Edit: November 28, 2009, 05:01:39 AM by poynt99 »

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Joule Thief
« on: November 28, 2009, 04:36:12 AM »

Offline poynt99

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Re: Joule Thief
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2009, 04:43:43 AM »
Stefan,

How will you measure this GJT to ensure at least 1W of power is being supplied by its output?

I would not rely on the specification of an LED. LED's can run on a wide range of voltage and current inputs, above its minimum. You can run a LED off 20mW or so (i.e. 10mA @ 2V).

I would suggest dispensing with LED's as an output power indication in favor of a 0.5W or 1W suitable value* carbon resistor. Do a control test with a DC supply and see what temperature the resistor is at with 1W input power. Then monitor the resistor's temperature for the DUT test to ensure it remains at that temperature, or higher. *A value that results in a temperature rise of say 20 to 40ºC above ambient.

As a side note, the applicant would be wise to tweak the submitted device to put out the amount of power he thinks will make the device last the 3 months and still maintain the minimum 1W output.

An AA battery should be able to source 1W of power for about 3.75 hours (assumed 1.5V output). This control test being with a standard Ohmic load, for example a 1.5 Ohm resistor. At this point, the battery would have fallen to a certain percentage of its full charge voltage. The battery however is not fully depleted of its energy.

It should be noted that using this same battery in a step-up circuit such as the JT, the time duration of this 1W output power can be extended quite a lot for two reasons:

1) The average load current on the battery is lower than with the control test, and

2) The JT facilitates access to more of the battery's stored energy, depleting it far beyond what the control test will while still being able to maintain the 1W power output.

I estimate therefore, that the AA battery would be able to charge the 650F cap from 0V to 2.6V about 8 to 10 times using the JT to charge it.

So I would suggest the temperature monitored resistor as the output power indicator (use a thermistor attached to the resistor), and see how long the GJT can keep the heat on. This will require some tweaking of the switching circuit which dumps some of the cap's energy back into the battery, such that it does so before the resistor's temperature drops below the required minimum.

For a 1W constant load, I will be surprised if this circuit (powered by a 2500mA AA battery) lasts more than 10 hours, which is a little shy of 3 months.

.99

Offline poynt99

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Re: Joule Thief
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2009, 04:45:17 AM »
Poynt:

The issue about "recharging" the AA battery from the charged ultracapacitor.

The poor AA battery gets fried for a few seconds, I don't remember how many.  The ultracap forces 2.6 volts across the battery and discharges through it at quite a high amperage.  The amperage could be checked with a variable power supply.

I have to assume that at least 4/5 of that energy becomes heat and less than 1/5 charges the battery.  I also assume that the battery will manifest a higher voltage for a few minutes after that extremely stressful event.  If you do this for too long something in the poor battery would start to boil.

Therefore when the battery voltage is measured after this event, the voltage is a bit higher from when you started charging the ultracapacitor due to the "shock treatment."  Hence there is a "victory" claim - but in reality what you just did was dissipate some stored battery energy as heat energy - back through the initial source battery.

I am not going to crunch the numbers but if you assume 10 amps for 10 seconds you probably only get a tiny voltage drop across the incredibly humongous 360 farad cap.  For all practical intents and purposes, the battery becomes a resistor dissipating 20+ watts of power for 10 seconds.  That should make it toasty warm.

These are my opinions and I approved this posting.  lol

On the capacitor front, I tried to explain how a "regular" capacitor, a supercapacitor, and ultracapacitors are all fundamentally the same thing - capacitors.  This was fiercely objected to by Pirate88179 and I got vaporized in seconds like steel wool hugging an ultracapacitor.  I even extended a polite invitation to discuss it here.  Apparently the truth about the differences between different types of capacitors is to be found in the Joule Thief ten-thousand posting archive.  The invite is still open Bill.

MileHigh

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Joule Thief
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2009, 04:45:17 AM »
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Offline poynt99

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Re: Joule Thief
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2009, 04:45:54 AM »
MH,

I agree with most of what you're saying.

Back to the cap. Yes, the now infamous Mr. Gadget doesn't quite understand the implications of what he is doing by discharging that huge cap into that poor AA battery. Not only is he stressing Mr. AA to pieces, but he's wasting a great deal of energy by doing so. But alas, it will only end speculation that much sooner, and as I said before, I give the GJT device less than 10 hours of operation at 1W. But then again, the entry for the OU prize won't be official until Stefan receives one to test. Will it make it to that stage? I am doubtful.

.99

Offline poynt99

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Re: Joule Thief
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2009, 04:47:34 AM »
Experiment, observation and measurement. Now that is where the wheat must really be separated from the chaff. Indeed I'll be pleased when I see some appropriate and well-executed measurements taking place in some of the threads at this forum.

.99

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Re: Joule Thief
« Reply #4 on: November 28, 2009, 04:47:34 AM »
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Offline poynt99

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Re: Joule Thief
« Reply #5 on: November 28, 2009, 04:48:55 AM »
Referring to the capacitor "phenomenon", the burden of proof is on those claiming they are fundamentally different, or different in such a way as to facilitate OU when in combination with and ordinary circuit.

.99

Offline poynt99

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Re: Joule Thief
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2009, 04:49:45 AM »
I am simply being conservative and just doing a mundane estimate of the energy audit when you over-voltage a chemical battery.  Hence I am making reasonable assumptions.  That's actually Occam's Razor in action, don't you think?

You could also do a rough energy audit trail for the posted circuit just by eyeballing it.  Poynt crunched the real numbers a few postings back for the the proposed test.  The JT enthusiasts might be curious to do the same thing for their own setups.  When they make a LED flash, has anybody ever thought about measuring how many millijoules of energy are expended per flash, and then relate that back to the available energy in the battery setups that they are using.  Taking it one step further, it would be interesting to know how mush energy is really available in the battery you are using by measuring it first, and not just using the published spec for the ampere-hours.  It would be an interesting investigation.

MileHigh

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Joule Thief
« Reply #6 on: November 28, 2009, 04:49:45 AM »
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Offline poynt99

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Re: Joule Thief
« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2009, 04:51:59 AM »
Gadget:

The short version is that the battery will charge the capacitor multiple times until it is discharged.  When you "recharge" the battery by connecting it to the charged capacitor most of the energy transferred into the battery in preparation for the next cycle is in fact lost as heat.  The battery only gets a tiny recharge when you do this.  The sum total of the energy that you put into the capacitor and try to recirculate ultimately adds up to less than the total energy in the battery at the start of the test.  The reason for this is that you loose some of the battery energy as heat to operate the circuit itself, and you loose some of the energy as heat when you go to recharge the battery.  That's your inescapable "overhead."

Another thing to ponder is the measured battery voltage.  If a battery only looses 0.02 volts when you run a test - this is not an indication of how much energy there is left in the battery or how much energy the battery just expended to run the test.  The battery could loose 5%, 10%, or 70% of it's energy.  You simply don't know how much by just measuring the battery voltage.  The battery voltage can even increase even though the battery has less energy in it at the end of the test.  So battery voltage is an invalid way of measuring the amount of energy remaining in a battery, or how much energy was expended by a battery.  Hence the need for proper testing to prove the claim.  This would apply to any device based on a battery.

MileHigh

Offline poynt99

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Re: Joule Thief
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2009, 04:52:51 AM »
Gadget:

It doesn't boggle my mind.  For example, it is no surprise that a battery charger will get burned when trying to charge an ultracapacitor.  I could have told you that 30 years ago before ultracapacitors even existed and I could explain it all upside-down and inside-out.  I am not trying to sound smart, in different circles "anybody" would think the same thing as me and pay no attention to it.  Nothing miraculous is happening, although you perceive it to be miraculous.

The key is to understand how the energy is moving around in the circuit, and to then make measurements to confirm your understanding.  If the measurements are in accord with what you expect to happen, then it would be good for two others to confirm the same thing.  If the measurements show something out of the ordinary, then you retest and remeasure until you are truly satisfied that you got it right.  Then if at least two others can replicate the effect, then you have the start of something - just the start.

If this actually were to be done, and you measure the proper energy trail, then you are going to see how ultimately all of the chemical energy in the battery becomes heat energy and light energy.  It will be a process of confirming that our current understanding of how chemical, electrical, heat, and light energy really work.

The ultracapacitor is simply an energy storage element in this system.  Chemical energy becomes electrical energy and it then gets stored in the ultracapacitor.  The electrical energy stored in the ultracapacitor typically becomes heat by the end of the experiment.  It is really as straightforward as that - and it can be confirmed again by making the proper measurements.

One of the things that you do in your circuit is play with the power levels with respect to time.  You fill the ultracapacitor with electrical energy at a very low power level.  Then at some later point in time you discharge the energy stored in the ultracapacitor at a very high power level for a short time.  So, (low power x long time) = (high power x short time).  This is all normal, and should not be confused with over unity or extra energy.

That's the real deal, and if people on your team are sincere and willing to investigate your circuit, the above description gives you a broad outline of what is really going on, not to be confused with your impression of what's going on in the circuit.  It's all about learning to "see."

MileHigh

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Joule Thief
« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2009, 04:52:51 AM »
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Offline poynt99

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Re: Joule Thief
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2009, 04:55:42 AM »
An excerpt of Stefan's post, after he meddled with the two threads and merged them:

Quote
Let us discuss here, how to measure the JT in a right way and to see,
how the measurements are done the right way.

Regards, Stefan (admin).

Offline poynt99

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Re: Joule Thief
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2009, 05:06:14 AM »
This is a rebuild of the JT topic after Stefan messed up and merged this original thread and one that was started afterward because I did not allow the whining and BS for which Wilby is famous and evidently has a real knack for.

(In case anyone missed this in my edit of the first post)

.99

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Joule Thief
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2009, 05:06:14 AM »
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Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Joule Thief
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2009, 11:43:06 PM »
So, poynt99,
where are the tips how to measure the Joule Thief ?

turbo

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Re: Joule Thief
« Reply #12 on: November 29, 2009, 10:47:00 AM »
MH,

I agree with most of what you're saying.

Back to the cap. Yes, the now infamous Mr. Gadget doesn't quite understand the implications of what he is doing by discharging that huge cap into that poor AA battery. Not only is he stressing Mr. AA to pieces, but he's wasting a great deal of energy by doing so. But alas, it will only end speculation that much sooner, and as I said before, I give the GJT device less than 10 hours of operation at 1W. But then again, the entry for the OU prize won't be official until Stefan receives one to test. Will it make it to that stage? I am doubtful.

.99

Maybe it's possible to discharge the Ultracap through a suitable transformer and dump the charge into a lead acid battery at the correct voltage...And then power the load from the battery.
Lead acid battery's are quite good at regulating and if the transformer steps up the voltage, current will automatically drop.

This way there are no small battery's to fry, and it'sa good way to see how long things last...

Marco.

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Joule Thief
« Reply #13 on: November 29, 2009, 10:52:53 AM »
User poynt99
was banned, cause he abused his moderator rights.

Regards, Stefan.(admin)

Offline neptune

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Re: Joule Thief
« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2011, 07:42:29 PM »
I hope I posted this in the right thread . I f not could the moderator please move it . HOT NEWS . On Peswiki news today . Joule thief 8 TIMES OVERUNITY.

 

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