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Author Topic: Joule Thief 101  (Read 816875 times)

Offline Pirate88179

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2340 on: May 08, 2016, 03:20:18 AM »
Mags:

OK, got it now.

Bill

Offline wattsup

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2341 on: May 08, 2016, 03:36:35 AM »
Yes the game is really over and for me there are just two outstanding issues:

1.  Brad admits that he is wrong about my response to the harder question.
2.  Brad gets up the learning curve and understands the original question and then answers it correctly all by himself and clearly demonstrates that he understands what he is doing.

What's been going on for the past six years?  Even The Shadow can't answer that one.  I intentionally answered a more difficult question in order to leave the original question up for discussion among the regulars.  Again, we are talking about a very simple circuit here consisting of a power source and one single solitary component.

For both Brad and Wattsup, I am not holding out much hope for either of you but there are always the high-odd payouts for the long shot bets.  You guys would be the winners, but nothing ventured nothing gained and no pain no gain.

MileHigh

@MH

Like I said I will always have full respect for you but it does not mean I will always agree with your methods. Why don't you just cut the high on the hog "I won't spoon feed you" slogan. I am not going to backtrack on all these crazy pages to find out what your questions are and then try to decipher changes to a question and what not. I have better things to do. But since you like and can afford to spend your days on this forum not spoon feeding but more like feeding the fire, then the onus is on you to clarify things, not on me.

If the QUESTION is as I had copied on the previous page to @tinman, then I have nothing more to say. It's your business if you want to call me this or that, I don't care.  But if that was your question and you wish to re-work the question, then do it and save us all your violin playing. Yes, you are allowed to re-work a question but it's up to you. If you are more concerned of peoples perceptions then asking a proper question, then that's your character flaw not mine.

If the question you asked is not on the previous page, then you need to post it again because I ain't searching for it. Imagine I have to wade through how many damn variables about a question to even figure out what the question is and all you are worried about is not spoon feeding anyone. Who asked for spoon feeding? Start by just getting the table set properly before you invite anyone for super.

What the hell man. So what. Ideal voltage (AC or DC would help), ideal coil (core or air core would help), we know this will in any way lead to what. The coil has 5H of inductance since it's ideal it cannot have resistance. OK so what. You want to talk about what? There is not even a question mark in your question plus no real question in your question. At least if you said there was a secondary with a resistive or inductive or capacitive load, that would add some more meat on the table. You just put a high inductance coil and count seconds with voltage levels. Look man, your question was just as ambiguous as your wine glass question. That is not my fault. Why don't you just take the cue or is your method a one way street. Do you want to have our input or not.

When I say help, it's not help for us, it's help to turn your question into a real question. Start there and we will see. Yes I can play your EE game any way you want. You think not but that's because I am on another road from now on but it does not mean I cannot play the EE game. I now consider myself a bilingual OUer. I can speak EE and now SC, but you know what, SC is so much more in tune with OU then anything EE can even start to muster because EE is just a convoluted mess full of freebies. Remember the 5 simple questions I asked and no one dared answer. hahahaha You have just been trained to think otherwise because it paid the bills. But I can play the game. The only reason I ask EE questions is to have the answer come from an EEer so it "sounds" official. It's not because I do not have the answer. hahaha

But your attitude, day after day, If you can't answer this, then you are that. Who the hell are you to say such a thing. If I was the moderator I would have deleted you weeks ago and saved everyone one whole pile of junk talk. You accuse @tinman after 6 years for what. Dammit he did more in  6 years of benching then you have since you every started on this forum so what's the problem here. Who should have the say? Then you say I will be just as stupid after another 10 years. What the hell are you saying. What I am working on is levels harder then anything you have ever brought forward to help Ouers. So you think we will arrive at OU by strictly adhering to your EE doctrine. Fine you lead the way. You have one week to provide an OU solution with your EE doctrine. Good luck. Oh but you should not need luck because you have all the answers right. Wake the hell up man. The world is going to shit and we need OU right now and will give it out free or charge and you are worried about what? Wake up man.

You want something to really think about. Look at post 143.
http://overunity.com/16500/mechanical-resonance-projects/msg483154/#msg483154

Do not post there because that is not the place. I will open a new thread called "wattsup with AC" when I'm ready but look man, I am not the enemy and you should not be the EE protector. You should be looking for the truth in these questions just like any other sane person should.

wattsup


Offline tinman

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2342 on: May 08, 2016, 05:12:55 AM »
Well like usual Brad you are saying stuff that is totally whackadoo and I am sure some of your friends around here are reading it and know that you are saying stuff that is totally whackadoo but so far none of them are saying anything about it.  That is a "sickness" you see on these forums.  If nothing happens then perhaps the usual will happen, a spoon feeding session from a guru.  But why always a spoon feeding session when you are living in the information age, and you can educate yourself if your friends refuse to help you?  For you spoon feeding is clearly not working.  Like I have said many times, you would not survive half a day on a real electronics forum.  You are getting the real deal from me about the easy question and the tough one that I answered, and all that you can do is obstinately refuse to try to do some critical thinking.

Here is the big exercise in critical thinking for you:  For the sake of argument and for your own benefit, assume that I am right and then take it from there.  Come up with an action plan and do something.

There is nothing wackadoo about my answer to your question,as it is the correct answer to your question.

Your question was-->You have an ideal voltage source and an ideal coil of 5 Henrys.  At time t=0 seconds the coil connects to the ideal voltage source. For three seconds the voltage is 4 volts.  Then for the next two seconds the voltage is zero volts. Then for two seconds the voltage is negative three volts, and then for the next six seconds the voltage is 0.5 volts.  Then after that the voltage is zero volts.

The correct answer to this question !is!-at T=0 ,when the voltage connects to the coil,the current rises instantly to an infinite value.

How do we know the current rises instantly?, Because T=L/R,and as R=0,then T also =0-->instant.
How do we know the current rises to an infinite value?,because the ideal coil has no resistance to appose the rise of current,and the voltage applied across the 0 value of resistance is also ideal.

So there you go MH,you asked me to answer your question,and i have--that is my answer.

So,am i right or wrong?

Quote
I am sure some of your friends around here are reading it and know that you are saying stuff that is totally whackadoo but so far none of them are saying anything about it.

Perhaps,like your EE friends,they are not interested in getting involved in yet another argument between myself and you MH.
Perhaps the EE guys know that i am correct,but will not say anything,as that would put you in a worse position than you are in now.

If i am wrong,then i would hope that those better versed in EE than myself,would post a comment,and say that i am wrong--along with why i am wrong--as long as it refers directly with your question,and not some random !if we change this,if we change that! changes made to your original question,then this would happen,and that would happen.

Your question can be answered when compressed into a very simple question.
Can an ideal voltage exist across an ideal inductor?.
Your answers say that it can,and my answer says it cannot.

When is an inductor considered !ideal!-->when it has no capacitance,and no resistance,but only inductance.
When is a voltage considered !ideal!-->when it maintains a fixed voltage drop across it's two terminals.

So you are saying MH,that you can have a fixed voltage drop across an inductor that has !no! resistance-->an ideal resistance value of 0 ohms.

Perhaps you can find some one that is willing to stick there neck out,and back you up on this one.

Why have not the EE guy's here,not yet jumped on me,and said that i answered your question wrong?.


Brad

Offline seychelles

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2343 on: May 08, 2016, 05:59:38 AM »
The analogy of water and electricity. voltage is the pressure like water pressure ,current is amount of charge ether or amount of water. All interrelating with the size, length, resistance, contours of the pipe work..

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2344 on: May 08, 2016, 06:48:44 AM »
Brad:

Perhaps the EE guys are fed up and want to see you sink or swim on your own.  We both know that if Poynt came here and backed me up then you would stop being belligerent and shut up and listen.

Here is a good example of why they might be fed up:

<<< Because T=L/R,and as R=0,then T also =0-->instant.  >>>

Firstly, there is no bloody resistance in the example, so why in hell are you even mentioning a resistance?  Secondly, let's put that issue aside and look at your statement.  You are saying that "Tau is also equal to zero" but Tau = L/R so when R is zero then Tau is equal to infinity, not zero.  What the fuck??

Right now you are completely mixed up and apparently don't know where to start.  You looked up some stuff online and presented some links but you draw incorrect conclusions from the links.  The question is very basic.  It's an important question because if you know how to answer it then you can look at a circuit on paper and get a preliminary sense of how it works.

I think you should try to get a discussion going with your peers but leave out the gurus.  Figure it out among yourselves.  Whatever you do is up to you but I am telling you with 100% certainty that right now you are dead wrong and all of your trash talk about me is bouncing right back at you.

MileHigh

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2345 on: May 08, 2016, 07:08:44 AM »
<<< The correct answer to this question !is!-at T=0 ,when the voltage connects to the coil,the current rises instantly to an infinite value. >>>

Really, eh?  The current rises instantly to an infinite value for an ideal inductor when connected to an ideal voltage source.  That's a pretty striking fact.  So striking in fact that you would think it's something that you would have heard about before.  Christ, it's such a striking statement that you might hear about it just as often or even more often than the bloody Schumann resonance.

But in fact you never hear about it.  And the reason you never hear about it is because it's a nonsensical "fact" that you made up on the spot when we got into this discussion.  You invented it out of thin air using your own convoluted "logic."

That's something for you to think about.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2346 on: May 08, 2016, 07:24:16 AM »
Not really MH,,  your ideal parts provide for an infinite condition which is absolutely stupid to begin with,, things stop in science when you have an infinite answer,, no duh!!

Wrong.

Offline tinman

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2347 on: May 08, 2016, 08:26:39 AM »
 author=MileHigh link=topic=8341.msg483359#msg483359 date=1462682924]


MileHigh
[/quote]

Your so confused MH,your disproving your self in your own statements.

Quote
Firstly, there is no bloody resistance in the example, so why in hell are you even mentioning a resistance?

You cant be serious :o
Because MH,you have stated in your question that you have 4 volts for 3 seconds over--you guessed it,a coil that has zero resistance.

Quote
Perhaps the EE guys are fed up and want to see you sink or swim on your own.  We both know that if Poynt came here and backed me up then you would stop being belligerent and shut up and listen.

We both know Poynt will not back you up,as he knows as well as i do that you cannot have 4 volts over a coil that has no resistance.

Quote
<<< Because T=L/R,and as R=0,then T also =0-->instant.  >>>

  Secondly, let's put that issue aside and look at your statement.  You are saying that "Tau is also equal to zero" but Tau = L/R so when R is zero then Tau is equal to infinity, not zero.  What the fuck??

Well first up ,T represents Time.
The time required for the current to rise to 63.2% of the maximum value after the switch is closed is the ratio of inductance to resistance (L/R). As there is no resistance,the the value of T(time) is an instant value. As to get to the 63% mark is instant,then maximum current is also instant. As there is no resistance,then the current maximum is infinite.
I see that bad language is coming back MH ::)

Quote
Right now you are completely mixed up and apparently don't know where to start.  You looked up some stuff online and presented some links but you draw incorrect conclusions from the links.  The question is very basic.  It's an important question because if you know how to answer it then you can look at a circuit on paper and get a preliminary sense of how it works.

I have answered your question correctly.

Quote
I think you should try to get a discussion going with your peers but leave out the gurus.  Figure it out among yourselves.  Whatever you do is up to you but I am telling you with 100% certainty that right now you are dead wrong and all of your trash talk about me is bouncing right back at you.

I am telling you i am correct,and you are wrong.
Find just one(yes-just one) example of an ideal voltage being placed across an ideal inductor--you will not--well maybe in MH fairyland.

An ideal inductor/coil cannot dissipate any real power,it does not have resistance nor hysteresis loss and does not heat up,and there for cannot dissipate the power being created when you place your ideal voltage across it. And so that in it self proves your answers incorrect,and also shows why an ideal voltage cannot be placed across an ideal inductor--as i stated some time back.

As i said before,i believe the reason that no EE guy here has said anything MH,is because it will show that you are incorrect. As sad as it may be,you guys tend to stick together,whether one of you know the other is wrong or not. It would be nice if those in the know stood for accurate and correct answer's,and not swayed by the !lets stick together! motto that seems to exist here.

Are you saying MH,that you can have a DC current flowing through an ideal inductor/coil,and also have a voltage across it at the same time?.


Brad

Offline tinman

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2348 on: May 08, 2016, 08:32:58 AM »
<<< The correct answer to this question !is!-at T=0 ,when the voltage connects to the coil,the current rises instantly to an infinite value. >>>

Really, eh?  The current rises instantly to an infinite value for an ideal inductor when connected to an ideal voltage source.  That's a pretty striking fact.  So striking in fact that you would think it's something that you would have heard about before.  Christ, it's such a striking statement that you might hear about it just as often or even more often than the bloody Schumann resonance.

But in fact you never hear about it.  And the reason you never hear about it is because it's a nonsensical "fact" that you made up on the spot when we got into this discussion.  You invented it out of thin air using your own convoluted "logic."

That's something for you to think about.

Thats exactly what would happen-->if it could happen,which as i stated many times already,cannot happen. You cannot place an ideal voltage across an ideal inductor or coil.
A voltage cannot exist across an ideal coil/inductor while a DC current flows through it.
So your answer to your own question is wrong,as it cannot happen.
If by some !ideal! chance that this could be done,then it would be as i said it would be--the current would rise to an infinite amount in an instant the moment the ideal voltage is placed across that ideal coil/inductor.


Brad

Offline tinman

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2349 on: May 08, 2016, 08:40:44 AM »
Alrighty then lets start with the first simple question.

If I have 1V source with an endless supply of charge carriers and connect a 0.0 ohm wire across that source,,

How much current will flow while the circuit is connected?

How much energy is there when an almost mass-less object is instantly accelerated to any change in velocity?

So an ideal wire will pass an infinite amount current if connected to an infinite supply that is at some voltage.

Now the question becomes,, is there a relaxation time period for a wire with no resistance??

If the answer is no then the universe just blew up,, if the answer is yes then what is causing the delay which in and of itself would be providing for a resistance.

Anyway I look at it I see that an infinite source with any "ideal" conductor\coil setup will have a moment at least upon contact of an instant movement of charge carriers which are almost mass-less objects that would be accelerated instantly to some change in velocity.

So to consider the questions posed one of the parts can NOT be ideal.

MH, you posed the questions with all ideal parts,, and well you can not argue with f=ma

Quote
If the answer is no then the universe just blew up,,

Bingo Webby.
An unstoppable force,meets an unmovable object.
To quote Poynt-post 2334-->At t=0, I think the universe might blow up  :(

I have provided the correct answer to MHs question he asked EMJ,Wattsup,and anyone else that cared to take it up. MH did not answer his own question correctly,but feels he can still pass judgment on those he thinks got it wrong.


Brad

Offline Johan_1955

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2350 on: May 08, 2016, 09:33:35 AM »
Perhaps,like your EE friends,they are not interested in getting involved in yet another argument between myself and you MH. Why have not the EE guy's here,not yet jumped on me,and said that i answered your question wrong?.
Brad

Simple: Tinman is not needing help, he manage on his one perfect, because a free critical thinking connected soul, with a better karma connected queer than he is self realising, thats real beauty without a arrogant teachers ego, and free sharing!

We did see here EE-fan's pass, some also blind from: Prince: Not seeing all the frame's from a self presented movie?, his ego guitar solo?, or with his FACE on chicken?, out compensating walking to fast away?, ask if you need again the pic's!

But check what he did do, with and between: SheilaE and Candy Dulfer, PurpleRain singing loud, but not understanding, blind slave from WTC/JH, Brooklyn or like EE?

String puppets NO thanks: Real nice for mine / other kids looking here?!

Regards, Johan

Churchill: Journalist without ................ , is simple a Escaped-Prisoner, with a bigmouth so lets make him leader, has the perfect credentials for selecting him as a PrimeMinister in UK, as Thatcher & FalkLands.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2094822/Photo-Winston-Churchill-horseback-daring-Boer-War-prison-camp-escape-auction.html

Offline tinman

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2351 on: May 08, 2016, 10:07:11 AM »
The internet is a wonderful thing MH,it truly is amazing what you can find out there.

I was looking back on some old threads at OUR,and have found some very good topics related to your question.

I see you asked such a question before
Quote MH: you connect the ideal inductor across the ideal power supply that is supplying 10 volts, so the question is what happens?

Poynt replied -Quote: The current and field continue to grow larger and larger (linearly) for ever and ever, until the 10V supply is turned off.

ION replied-Quote: The current in the inductor would approach infinity.
There would be no saturation or ohmic loss because it is an ideal inductor.
The magnetic field would also go towards infinity
The ideal power supply would have no problem delivering infinite current as it also is ideal.
Anyone guess what x is after one time constant? After one second?

Now here is your outstanding reply to ION--this is a kicker :D
MHs reply-Quote: There is no time constant because it's a "trick" question! :P

Now aint that a hoot.
Here you are today,trying to post answers to your own question that you have previously claimed to be a trick question :o

And to think of all the times you have called EMJ and Wattsup out on your question,and the posts you have made stating that i dont know what im talking about,how stupid i am,how much i need to go and learn basics,when all along,you yourself have no idea what the answer to your !!trick!! question is.

I can provide the link to that thread -if you so wish MH,so as you can review it for your self.
But wait-there's more :)

So my question to you-
In your question,you state that there is an ideal voltage of 4 volts across the ideal coil for 3 second's,and being that the voltage is ideal,and has a given value of 4 volts,that means that the supplied voltage is 4 volts DC,as an ideal voltage dose not change in value.
Q1-So can there be a voltage across an ideal coil/inductor when a DC current is flowing through that ideal coil/inductor?

As it is obvious that none of the EE guys here are going to say whether your right or wrong,or im right or wrong,lets debate this question of yours together,and come to the correct answer--and try to leave the bad language and profanities out of it MH.

My answer for Q1 is-no,there cannot be a voltage across an ideal coil/inductor when there is a DC current flowing through it.
What is your answer MH?


Brad

Offline tinman

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2352 on: May 08, 2016, 10:24:45 AM »
I have a better idea MH.
I will make up a thread devoted to getting the correct answer to your question,so as not to take up space on this thread,as it is an unrelated topic.

See you there soon-MH's ideal coil and voltage question.


Brad

Offline Johan_1955

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2353 on: May 08, 2016, 10:40:28 AM »
As an American,it may be hard to see,due to loving your country--blind is love some times.
Brad

For that reason the Pic, from the UK ass with Rosa glasses, and most sad: His blind followers creating the real extended problem over Years, thousand of young kids involved! Funny, after that, I did get some private e-mail: With thanks!

Seems, Nicky/DottyDot is not so ............. !

----------------

Proven US, when they don't understand Series-Resonance-Tuning, they simply create there own invented so called true / formula:

"There’s no Substitute for Cubic Inches" ??? ???

And so World and CO2 all egaal!!!!!!!!!!!

Again, proven proud on filling a: 2-Stroke Oily mix in a 4-Stroke!?!?

Better IS, Goegle: 6-Stroke, or place a Steam-Engine direct behind a 3- or 4-stroke, that is here working and over ~62% eff., did invite 10 EE-people from here, for TD and EE but nothing, silencio, small CHICKENs!!

Now ~10 years member, see them come, and fade .................

Still waiting for the very loud announced: "Proto-Raggea", 8 years ago, so a no hands dreaming teacher, he could be a journalist, shouting: Je SUIS, but NOT for every!

Sad, they should understand, why a Serpent could not get Legs in al those years of there own promoted: Adjusting Evolution!?

Regards, Johan

Offline Johan_1955

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2354 on: May 08, 2016, 12:04:07 PM »
The internet is a wonderful thing MH,it truly is amazing what you can find out there.

I was looking back on some old threads at OUR,and have found some very good topics related to your question.

I see you asked such a question before
Quote MH: you connect the ideal inductor across the ideal power supply that is supplying 10 volts, so the question is what happens?

Poynt replied -Quote: The current and field continue to grow larger and larger (linearly) for ever and ever, until the 10V supply is turned off.

ION replied-Quote: The current in the inductor would approach infinity.
There would be no saturation or ohmic loss because it is an ideal inductor.
The magnetic field would also go towards infinity
The ideal power supply would have no problem delivering infinite current as it also is ideal.
Anyone guess what x is after one time constant? After one second?

Now here is your outstanding reply to ION--this is a kicker :D
MHs reply-Quote: There is no time constant because it's a "trick" question! :P

Brad

Elizabeth, I'm coming, my hart ;-))

You Aussie :-)), you should warn the more sensible people here, before you post rock solid PROOF like this, there are people here without a programmed Alu-Cap!

Slowly we understand: The Royals of UnitedKingdom, did deport the best and most creative artists to ............. , 6-stroke! ;-))

Regards, Johan