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Author Topic: Joule Thief 101  (Read 926811 times)

MileHigh

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #360 on: February 20, 2016, 02:55:57 AM »
Brad:

Quote
Let me guess--you are full bottles on it,even though you probably have never looked into it's operation?-->do tell.

The real problem is that it's a circuit that you stumbled upon and you yourself have never looked into its operation beyond merely observing it.

I looked into something similar 30 years ago.  Stop BSing yourself with two-word "explanations" for the way a circuit works when in reality your "explanation" is nothing more than a property of a transistor.

For example:  You don't have the slightest clue what actually determines the frequency of your "Cool Joule" circuit.

MileHigh

MileHigh

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #361 on: February 20, 2016, 03:05:30 AM »
Brad:

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It would seem to me,it's more of an argument as to the JT is suppose to do,and what we want it to do. You want it to be used at voltages where you have a standard blocking oscillator operation,were as!i believe! the rest of us wish to use it to drain nearly dead batteries all the way down.  This is what the JT is used for mostly MH,so why should we be looking at how it operates at higher voltage supplies?.

Now you are playing straw man and trying to put words in my mouth.  It was an argument about how it operates and two weeks ago the statements about how it operates were nonsensical bunk.  As a blocking oscillator it will still manage to pull the battery voltage low.  Below a certain threshold something different happens.  I saw that in Joule Thief clips years ago.

Stop the baiting and the switching and stand up for what you say with conviction and backbone, even if you are wrong.  Go ahead and do what will probably be a more complex analysis of a Joule Thief when the normal mode of operation breaks down at very low voltages if you want to do that.

MileHigh

Pirate88179

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #362 on: February 20, 2016, 03:14:31 AM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Co4WsKOcJk0

200 leds lit from a single "dead" AA battery.  To me, this is what the JT circuit is for.  I have also done 300 and then 400 but, they are not as bright as these 200 leds.  The battery was well below 1 volt at this time.  I am still impressed by this...call me simple but, it is still pretty cool.

Bill

tinman

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #363 on: February 20, 2016, 03:17:57 AM »
Brad:

Now you are playing straw man and trying to put words in my mouth.  It was an argument about how it operates and two weeks ago the statements about how it operates were nonsensical bunk.  As a blocking oscillator it will still manage to pull the battery voltage low.  Below a certain threshold something different happens.  I saw that in Joule Thief clips years ago.

Stop the baiting and the switching and stand up for what you say with conviction and backbone, even if you are wrong.  Go ahead and do what will probably be a more complex analysis of a Joule Thief when the normal mode of operation breaks down at very low voltages if you want to do that.

MileHigh

Already done that.
The only reason you are not happy with that,is because it go;s against what you believe.

So--how about that little competition MH ?. You up for it ?.
It's quite simple really MH. All you have to do is use your understanding of how thing's work,and i will use mine :D


Brad

tinman

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #364 on: February 20, 2016, 03:20:05 AM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Co4WsKOcJk0

200 leds lit from a single "dead" AA battery.  To me, this is what the JT circuit is for.  I have also done 300 and then 400 but, they are not as bright as these 200 leds.  The battery was well below 1 volt at this time.  I am still impressed by this...call me simple but, it is still pretty cool.

Bill

Great job Bill.
It is good to see some one that knows what a JT was designed to do.


Brad

Pirate88179

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #365 on: February 20, 2016, 03:22:55 AM »
Great job Bill.
It is good to see some one that knows what a JT was designed to do.


Brad

Thanks Brad.  I really do appreciate that.

Bill

MileHigh

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #366 on: February 20, 2016, 03:24:04 AM »
Brad:

Quote
Already done that.

Are you trying to suggest that you have done an analysis of how a Joule Thief works at extra low voltage when the normal switching cycle breaks down?

If yes, where is it?

MileHigh

Magluvin

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #367 on: February 20, 2016, 03:28:43 AM »
Magluvin:

We will take a reality check on this one.  You will not find a single statement by me saying that I am against improving the efficiency of a Joule Thief.  So why are you agreeing with him?  Of course between the lines in Smoky1's statement is that "Smoky1 is attempting to bring increased efficiency to the Joule Thief by preaching that "resonance" will make a Joule Thief more efficient so if you challenge Smoky1 then you are 'against such attempts to improve efficiency.'"  But Smoky1 has only talk to offer that you have seen many times before so why would you agree with him before he has shown any evidence that his pitch is real?

Don't do the "degrading insults" play.  If you read me carefully I never take a first step in that direction, never.  Tinman and I are "fighting" over how a Joule Thief works.  If he says something nasty I might respond, but I am never the initial aggressor.  If his behaviour shows some attributes that are not conducive to an orderly understanding of how a circuit works and he is all over the map and it gets frustrating, I will call him out.  Your own record on "degrading insults" is one of the worst on this forum and I assume that you have thought long and hard about that as well as thinking about the whole raison d'être for this forum which had you doing some soul searching about how much time to invest in "the search."  I commend you for that.  Your one-time tag-team "partner in crime" is getting serious push-back on EF for his horrible behaviour and people are openly expressing how unacceptable it is.  I only wish other people on this forum challenged you and your tag-team partner when it was absolutely horrible around here.  It's the one time that the people on EF have outshone the people on OU and demonstrated some backbone and character.  Again, don't put the "degrading insults" label on me because it is not true.  It's just another cynical card to play.

The gist of it is this:  People have to get past the back-slapping and mutual stroking when discussing simple circuits in fake imaginary terms that actually don't make sense in real life.  That's is what was happening about the Joule Thief.  I made my case and got push-back, and then I pushed-back.  There is nothing wrong with that.

So you got a nearly 1 MHz sine wave on your scope display.  What next?  That's the hard part and I wish you luck.  What you want and need to do is figure it out just like I annotated your scope shot for the regular Joule Thief.  You have to do that to see where it is going to lead you.  Will it be a dead end or "improved efficiency through resonance?"

MileHigh

Well lets just see what happens. If Smoky for what ever reasons doesnt want to fully demonstrate a device then it is what it is. If he is willing to spend some time here and help out toward a more efficient goal, then im fine with doing what he suggests. Its a JT. Not much to do but tinker some mod ideas. So on that end, lets not beat the horse before race.

If you want to argue with Brad about what a JT is, then thats what is going to happen.  I dont care if what I end up with is even remotely close to being a JT, as long as I can possibly get some 'better' performance. If I happen to end up with a circuit that runs best at 3v, then I suppose its not under the jt rules any longer. Or in the end, this can be called a modified jt, as long as it can run an led with a AA as low as .3v at very low amperage.   Like scooping ice cream with a spoon in the bowl. Using an ice cream scoop, which is simply a modified spoon, will get the ice cream out much easier. ;)


What next?  I think I just put some thoughts on that in my last post. Also, I have reached the goal that Smoky asked me to get to. Soo, lets calm down and see what happens next.

Mags

MileHigh

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #368 on: February 20, 2016, 03:53:14 AM »
Magluvin:

I actually alluded to another interesting "what's next."

Supposing there is a very common super-bright white LED that most Joule Thief experimenters use and it turns out that the decaying voltage/current waveform from the discharging coil does indeed show that the inductor's energy output is not being used very efficiently.

So that begs the question:  Can you do an improved Joule Thief design where the extra power required to support the presumably increased circuit complexity to improve the efficiency of the inductor's energy output still manages to give you better overall performance?  Heck, even if the performance is not significantly improved it's a new challenge to get your minds out of the same-old-same-old Joule Thief rut and get some juices flowing.

It means that you actually have to apply your knowledge and try to design something new instead of painting by numbers all the time.  That would inject some life into a static subject that has not really changed in years.

MileHigh

Nink

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #369 on: February 20, 2016, 04:22:12 AM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Co4WsKOcJk0

200 leds lit from a single "dead" AA battery.  To me, this is what the JT circuit is for.  I have also done 300 and then 400 but, they are not as bright as these 200 leds.  The battery was well below 1 volt at this time.  I am still impressed by this...call me simple but, it is still pretty cool.

Bill

Where were you at Christmas

tinman

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #370 on: February 20, 2016, 04:33:24 AM »
Magluvin:

I actually alluded to another interesting "what's next."

Supposing there is a very common super-bright white LED that most Joule Thief experimenters use and it turns out that the decaying voltage/current waveform from the discharging coil does indeed show that the inductor's energy output is not being used very efficiently.





MileHigh

Quote
So that begs the question:  Can you do an improved Joule Thief design where the extra power required to support the presumably increased circuit complexity to improve the efficiency of the inductor's energy output still manages to give you better overall performance?  Heck, even if the performance is not significantly improved it's a new challenge to get your minds out of the same-old-same-old Joule Thief rut and get some juices flowing.It means that you actually have to apply your knowledge and try to design something new instead of painting by numbers all the time.  That would inject some life into a static subject that has not really changed in years.

Im beginning to think that you do not read all of what is posted in threads MH.
I have told you ,and explained to you why and how !your! JT circuit is an inefficient circuit. I also posted a circuit,shot a video of the circuit running,and also the fact that replications have been made and posted here on that very simple circuit--the one below. Results are far more light output(measured with Lux meter)for less input energy. The ability to drain a battery down far more than !your! standard JT circuit. Due to the fact that it was just a quick throw together circuit,it could be made far more efficient than what i presented.


Brad.

Pirate88179

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #371 on: February 20, 2016, 04:36:12 AM »
Where were you at Christmas




Well, back a few years ago, (2008) I lit my tree using 300 leds and a JT circuit and a single AA battery.  This past Christmas, I did not even bother to put up a tree.

Bill

Magluvin

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #372 on: February 20, 2016, 04:41:58 AM »
Magluvin:

I actually alluded to another interesting "what's next."

Supposing there is a very common super-bright white LED that most Joule Thief experimenters use and it turns out that the decaying voltage/current waveform from the discharging coil does indeed show that the inductor's energy output is not being used very efficiently.

So that begs the question:  Can you do an improved Joule Thief design where the extra power required to support the presumably increased circuit complexity to improve the efficiency of the inductor's energy output still manages to give you better overall performance?  Heck, even if the performance is not significantly improved it's a new challenge to get your minds out of the same-old-same-old Joule Thief rut and get some juices flowing.

It means that you actually have to apply your knowledge and try to design something new instead of painting by numbers all the time.  That would inject some life into a static subject that has not really changed in years.

MileHigh

Can I? Im Hoping I can. No time machine available in my area. ;D   Like I said. Lets see where it goes here and skip the supposing and assumptions, because thats all they are, assumptions. Lets just 'do' and 'try' before any guessing.   It would be nice to just do some peaceful experimenting. If it doesnt pan out, then it doesnt. Then thats on me. And Im willing to put the time in. So lets let it happen. ;) If anything it will be a learning experience.

Where Im at here is a little sloppy. I want to shorten leads and solidify a circuit to a nice soldered board, etc.  This was my first JT and just getting used to it and what variances affect the circuit like changing the resistor values, different input voltages, and which value changes affect the freq and so on. Whether I read it some where or someone tells me those things, its always better to experience it. Like martial arts. I could have 205 books on all the arts and practice in my room for years. But going out and using it in a real fight turns out to almost as difficult as not knowing any of the arts at all.  lol, been there done 'that'. ;) When I started boxing at the gym I learned that fact. Then I continued to go to the gym for 6 yrs. Now I can fight. ;) 9 amateur fights won 7.

Mags

TinselKoala

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #373 on: February 20, 2016, 04:56:32 AM »
Is it a JT if it doesn't use LEDs? Or can work wirelessly with no battery at all? And drives a pulse motor?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPt7xbmHXfY




Pirate88179

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #374 on: February 20, 2016, 05:16:15 AM »
Is it a JT if it doesn't use LEDs? Or can work wirelessly with no battery at all? And drives a pulse motor?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPt7xbmHXfY

I am not sure...is there any cheese involved in the circuit?

Ha ha...I have always liked that circuit of yours.  It would probably fry leds unless you used a lot of them.

Bill