Brad:


Quote from BigClive: "There are a few variants on the design which add extra components to improve efficiency, but a true Joule Thief uses a single transistor, 1K resistor, hand wound ferrite bead transformer and the LED you want to light."


You forgot to use BigClive's definitions of the JT circuit.  He is the one that came up with that name in the first place so, I think he gets to decide what it is, and is not. 


Of course, according to BigClive's definitions, a lot of my circuits are not JT's.  Maybe we here should come up with our own name to describe a blocking oscillator/feedback type circuit that boosts voltage and runs down batteries? 


I used the name "Joule Pirate"  on several of my circuits as Pirates have been known to steal stuff, ha ha.  I am not saying we need to use that but, all of my Fuji type circuits are not really JT's using Clive's definition.  They need to be called something.


Bill

If i remove the pot,and replace that pot with a resistor,i then have what big Clive states
A resistor,transistor,ferrite bead/toroid,and an LED-see circuit above in my last post.

Brad

Brad:

 
Get it through your head that circuits have different architectures and we often will refer to a certain architectural class of circuits with a common name and other circuits in a different architectural class with another different common name.  Undertake to learn something new instead of being so stubborn and holding your breath until you turn blue.

Bullshit, the minimum experimenters should expect is to at least get a schematic.  Go look at some of your clips that are three years old so you can't remember the circuit anymore and watch yourself do a three minute rundown of where all the alligator clips are connected and see how it feels.



MileHigh

You were basically showing a variation on a Joule Thief/blocking oscilator and not really a different type of circuit architecture like you were alluding to so you get the facepalm.

Oh really.

I am pleasantly shocked that you provided a schematic after the fact.  Why don't you do that for all future clips in the actual clip where you demonstrate the circuit?

Because it is painfully clear even when i do,you still pay no attention to it.
Here is your description on how the !your! JT circuit works.

How a Joule Thief works:

 This circuit used in this project is a modified "Joule Thief." A Joule Thief is a self-oscillating voltage booster. It takes a steady low voltage signal and converts it into a series of high frequency pulses at a higher voltage. Here is how a basic Joule Thief works, step by step:
    1. Initially the transistor is off.
    2. A small amount of electricity goes through the resistor and the first coil to the base of the transistor. This partially opens up the collector-emitter channel. Electricity is now able to travel through the second coil and through the collector-emitter channel of the transistor.
    3. The increasing amount of electricity through the second coil generates a magnetic field that induces a greater amount of electricity in the first coil.
    4. The induced electricity in the first coil goes into the base of the transistor and opens up the collector-emitter channel even more. This lets even more electricity travel through the second coil and through the collector-emitter channel of the transistor.
    5. Steps 3 and 4 repeat in a feedback loop until the base of the transistor is saturated and the collector-emitter channel is fully open. The electricity traveling through the second coil and through the transistor are now at a maximum. There is a lot of energy built up in the magnetic field of the second coil.
    6. Since the electricity in the second coil is no longer increasing, it stops inducing electricity in the first coil. This causes less electricity to go into the base of the transistor.
    7. With less electricity going into the base of the transistor, the collector-emitter channel begins to close. This allows less electricity to travel through the second coil.
    8. A drop in the amount of electricity in the second coil induces a negative amount of electricity in the first coil. This causes even less electricity to go into the base of the transistor.
    9. Steps 7 and 8 repeat in a feedback loop until there is almost no electricity going through the transistor.
    10. Part of the energy that was stored in the magnetic field of the second coil has drained out. However there is still a lot of energy stored up. This energy needs to go somewhere. This causes the voltage at the output of the coil to spike.
    11. The built up electricity can't go through the transistor, so it has to go through the load (usually an LED). The voltage at the output of the coil builds up until it reaches a voltage where is can go through the load and be dissipated.
    12. The built up energy goes through the load in a big spike. Once the energy is dissipated, the circuit is effectively reset and starts the whole process all over again. In a typical Joule Thief circuit this process happens 50,000 times per second.

So now i ask you once again MH--how dose the circuit i posted work?

Hey George Orwell, what happened to the Joule Thief as an RLC circuit?

Hey Wile E Coyote,looking at your description of the workings of your JT circuit,  12-The built up energy goes through the load in a big spike. Once the energy is dissipated, the circuit is effectively reset and starts the whole process all over again,how exactly dose the transistor switch on once the battery voltage go's below the switch on threshold voltage of the transistor ?. I mean ,it wouldnt have anything to do with junction capacitance within the transistor it self--would it MH,as that would mean that the!your! JT circuit would be an RLC circuit-->and we cant have that.

Your description is flawed,and as described,your JT circuit would stop operating once the battery voltage dropped below the threshold voltage required to switch on the transistor. In my circuit(provided),i use a 2n3055 transistor,and that requires 700mV at the base to switch on the transistor,and yet (as seen on the video)my circuit is quite happy to run on only 250mV.
So following your description of the workings of your JT MH,how exactly would it continue to run once the battery voltage is below the required voltage to switch on the transistor ?.
Facepalm ?

Below is your JT circuit,along with the circuit i used. Now have a good look MH,and tell me the difference in operation between the two.


Brad

Brad:

We started off this thread with Smoky2 making the "resonance/they don't want you to know" pitch, and you making your pitch by just casually saying, "Oh, it's an RLC circuit, that should be obvious and everybody knows that."

And those two points are completely wrong and it's almost surprising that these things would be said after six years worth of playing with Joule Thieves.  So I set out to set the record straight for the benefit of all people that are truly interested in building and experimenting with Joule Thieves.

So I made the correct points so you guys and the readers would get it right.  Then I got a lot of push-back from both of you, a hell of a lot of it.  So I pushed back myself.  So now there is a lot of drama associated with this thread and the old Joule Thief regulars are watching it.

You have been making mistakes and that upsets you and you would almost die if you would admit that.  You should resolve that problem within yourself.  So you are taking a counter-measure strategy where you are doing a "play."  The "play" is to try to feign that I am the one that doesn't understand what is going on, so you are asking me questions.  The backdrop to all of this is that I have been around long enough so that you, and nearly everybody else watching, already has a very decent idea what my knowledge level is.

So I am not going to answer your silly basic questions that you know I know the answer to and presumably most of the readers know that I know the answer to.  We are going to get this right for your benefit and for others' benefit without the  needless BS and fake psychodrama.

MileHigh

 author=MileHigh link=topic=8341.msg474397#msg474397 date=1455680774
Brad:

We started off this thread with Smoky2 making the "resonance/they don't want you to know" pitch, and you making your pitch by just casually saying, "Oh, it's an RLC circuit, that should be obvious and everybody knows that."

I was not the first to claim it was an RLC circuit MH-->hint,reply 104
Quote: Several heated discussions, have led to the understanding of SRF with respect to the LRC portion of the circuit.However, the transistor function seems to cause problems for many.
Now MH-weather you like it or not,this is where the C is in the LRC-->in the junction capacitance of the transistor,where the miller effect is created.

And those two points are completely wrong and it's almost surprising that these things would be said after six years worth of playing with Joule Thieves.  So I set out to set the record straight for the benefit of all people that are truly interested in building and experimenting with Joule Thieves.

The fact is MH,you are doing the opposite. You are plastering incorrect/incomplete information all over this thread,and as you can see,the thread has died,and Smokey has left<--got sick of arguing with the arm chair guru i would expect.

So I made the correct points so you guys and the readers would get it right.  Then I got a lot of push-back from both of you, a hell of a lot of it.  So I pushed back myself.  So now there is a lot of drama associated with this thread and the old Joule Thief regulars are watching it.

No MH,your points are incorrect,and 1 example is that you think that the JT is a circuit. It is not 1 single circuit,it is any circuit that can perform or create a similar outcome-->that being able to almost fully deplete a battery of it's stored energy while driving an LED(or other loads)
The reason you get pushback MH,is because you are trying to tell people like Smokey and myself that we are wrong,even though i(and a few others) have shown you that the C value in these types of circuit's can alone keep the circuit functioning-->the miller effect. As soon as you add a transistor MH,you have a capacitance value that plays a part in the overall circuit operation-->these are fact's,and anyone reading this thread can look for them self what the junction capacitance value is for the transistor they are using. It's there MH,and you cant make it go away.

You have been making mistakes and that upsets you and you would almost die if you would admit that.  You should resolve that problem within yourself.

I have made no mistakes MH in my claims here on this thread. In fact,i have shown you people that have replicated JT circuit's that rely on the C of the RLC circuit to operate. This is fact MH,and as much as you would like to try and push your rubbish through,i have presented evidence against your claims by way of working devices.

 

So you are taking a counter-measure strategy where you are doing a "play."  The "play" is to try to feign that I am the one that doesn't understand what is going on, so you are asking me questions.  The backdrop to all of this is that I have been around long enough so that you, and nearly everybody else watching, already has a very decent idea what my knowledge level is.

Unfortunately MH,your knowledge is from yesty year,and there are those that have gained more knowledge through bench time,and results achieved,and then being able to interpret those result's.
As i said,the operation description you gave for the JT is incomplete,and incorrect.

So I am not going to answer your silly basic questions that you know I know the answer to and presumably most of the readers know that I know the answer to.

Big copout MH,and clearly show's you cannot answer my questions,as you know that your explanation of how the JT circuit will be shown to be incorrect if you do answer my two questions.

So i will ask once again MH,how dose the transistor switch on once the batteries voltage drops below the threshold voltage required to turn the transistor on?. Answer this by using your quoted operation of a JT
Lets have a close look at your operation description.
    1. Initially the transistor is off.
    2. A small amount of electricity goes through the resistor and the first coil to the base of the transistor. This partially opens up the collector-emitter channel. Electricity is now able to travel through the second coil and through the collector-emitter channel of the transistor.
    3. The increasing amount of electricity through the second coil generates a magnetic field that induces a greater amount of electricity in the first coil.

Ok,so right from the start,the battery voltage must be slightly more than the voltage required to start to open the C/E junction of the transistor(the required base voltage). With a 2n3055 this voltage is 700mV as per spec's.
Now lets look at the last part of your operating description.
Quote: 12. The built up energy goes through the load in a big spike. Once the energy is dissipated, the circuit is effectively reset and starts the whole process all over again.

So MH,dont take the copout route--explain to everyone here,how the circuit continues to operate once the battery voltage falls below the switch on threshold voltage of the transistor?.
For example(which i have provided proof of operation),my last circuit(that you claim to be a different variation of your JT circuit)uses a 2n3055 transistor,and the base voltage required to switch that transistor on is around 700mV(this you can check for your self). So if we use your operating description,then my circuit should stop working once the battery voltage is close to that 700mV needed to switch on the transistor. But as everyone can see here,it is happy to keep running on a supply voltage less than 250mV .

So like i said MH,your operation description of how the JT works is incorrect,and the evidence speaks for it self.

 

We are going to get this right for your benefit and for others' benefit without the  needless BS and fake psychodrama.

Your darn right we are,and as can be clearly seen MH--you are posting incorrect operations of how the circuit work's. The only one leading people astray here MH,is you,and your incorrect operation explanations of how the JT work's.

12. The built up energy goes through the load in a big spike. Once the energy is dissipated, the circuit is effectively reset and starts the whole process all over again.

This is absolute bollocks,and i have proven it to be in my last video.
If you want people to learn the correct operations of a JT circuit MH,then i recommend you go and do some more home work your self,as the operation you stated is clearly wrong--and the fact that you refuse to answer my question's, speaks volume's in your actual knowledge of how JT circuits actually work.

Brad

A quick video on the circuit above.
The 10k VR has been omitted.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eCnT6C7T81o


Brad

Okay Brad so you say I have gotten it all wrong and you say you are the one that is right.   You asked me how a Joule Thief works.  I have linked to videos and references from the web, and I have discussed various aspects of how a Joule Thief works throughout the thread.

Here is the main YouTube clip:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GVLnyTdqkg

Then look at the following postings:

230
255
257
258
267

Also post #197 and there is a small error in that post.

I state "Time constant #2 = Inductance/(Coil resistance + LED "resistance")"
It should read, "Time constant #2 = Inductance/(Battery resistance + Coil resistance + LED "resistance")"

Anybody that has a basic understanding of electronics will be able to understand how a Joule Thief works by reading the provided information and watching the main clip.  So there is your explanation.

So, since I supposedly have goten it all wrong, the YouTube clip must be wrong, and the web sources that I linked to must be wrong, and the information that I added above must be wrong.

Okay, here is your opportunity to get it right.  Please explain to the readers exactly  how a Joule Thief works using any sources of information you want.   That is the big issue.  I will be happy to respond to all outstanding questions that you have posed to me, but let's get the big stuff done first.

The floor is yours:  Please explain to the readers exactly how a Joule Thief works.

MileHigh

Here is the main YouTube clip:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GVLnyTdqkg

Then look at the following postings:

230
255
257
258
267

Also post #197 and there is a small error in that post.

I state "Time constant #2 = Inductance/(Coil resistance + LED "resistance")"
It should read, "Time constant #2 = Inductance/(Battery resistance + Coil resistance + LED "resistance")"

Anybody that has a basic understanding of electronics will be able to understand how a Joule Thief works by reading the provided information and watching the main clip.  So there is your explanation.

 and the web sources that I linked to must be wrong, and the information that I added above must be wrong.

Okay, here is your opportunity to get it right.  Please explain to the readers exactly  how a Joule Thief works using any sources of information you want.   That is the big issue.  I will be happy to respond to all outstanding questions that you have posed to me, but let's get the big stuff done first.

The floor is yours:  Please explain to the readers exactly how a Joule Thief works.

MileHigh

Okay Brad so you say I have gotten it all wrong and you say you are the one that is right.   You asked me how a Joule Thief works.  I have linked to videos and references from the web, and I have discussed various aspects of how a Joule Thief works throughout the thread.

And i have shown time and time again,that the cycle is not restarted by the battery--it just cannot once the battery voltage falls below the voltage required to switch on the transistor. Surely you understand this MH,or are you going to continually just copy and past incorrect information found on the internet ?.

It's a simple question MH--how is it that i have 720mV being delivered to the base of my transistor,and yet only have a supply voltage of around 250mV?. How can it be the battery(supply voltage) that is switching on the transistor ?.

So, since I supposedly have goten it all wrong, the YouTube clip must be wrong,

Yes,the youtube clip is wrong,and because you just believe in what some one else is telling you,then you to are wrong. Go and listen to your video again MH,right at the end of the first cycle-->5 minute mark,where he state's--Quote: Once the magnetic field is all gone,there is no more current for the LED,and it turn's off.And we wait for the battery voltage to start opening the base to emitter gate again,to start the whole cycle over again.

Now,with that information MH, please explain as to how the battery can open the base/emitter gate,when that battery voltage falls below the required base voltage of the transistor for it to switch on?.

Like i said,you,your video,and provided operation information are wrong,and i have show this a number of times now with actual working devices. It simply dose not work that way,and cannot work that way once the battery voltage falls below the required switch on voltage of the transistor.

Please go and do a little more research before providing more incorrect information.


Brad