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Author Topic: Joule Thief 101  (Read 621121 times)

Offline tinman

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2700 on: July 13, 2016, 07:48:07 AM »
No Brad, the test points are ambiguous.  I don't see a definitive ground connection.  I don't see any probe colours matching the scope channel colours like I am used to seeing before.

Here is the bloody point:  Every time I look at a scope capture with a provided schematic from you I don't want to have to play a guessing game and spend 90 seconds figuring out what is what.  I don't give a damn if you say it is "obvious."  It is pretty straightforward in this case but I still don't give a damn.  It's a pain in the ass.

I literally just saw the text "CVR 1 trace" in the upper right quadrant of the image after staring at the image about 20 times.

You took the trouble to stitch together your scope capture with the schematic using an image editing program.  You couldn't be bothered to spend just one minute while you were in the image editing program to label where the scope channel was connected in a clear and unambiguous manner.

Look at the attached image.  I updated your graphic.  I can look at that graphic and in 1/2 second I see exactly what is going on, no muss, no fuss, no bullshit looking at "options."

Well im so sorry MH,i did not know just how dyslexic you are,and you need spoon feeding with every single diagram,because you are just too stupid to know that the black marker indicatse  scope ground,the yellow marker indicates the yellow channel on the scope,and the blue marker indicates the blue channel on the scope.

Even when i write  in large capital letters on the diagram,exactly what the scope shot is showing-you still get lost.
It is not my fault you have trouble reading very clear explanations  as to what the scope shot is showing.
It is clear that when you have nothing to complain about,you just make crap up.

Grow up you whining little child.


Brad

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2700 on: July 13, 2016, 07:48:07 AM »

Offline tinman

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2701 on: July 13, 2016, 04:32:15 PM »
Below is a graph showing some test results of various toroid inductors tested on the same JT circuit,along with the straight DC power mark to gain 200 LUX from the LED array.

Circuit used also pictured below.


Brad

Offline T-1000

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2702 on: July 13, 2016, 05:19:29 PM »
Below is a graph showing some test results of various toroid inductors tested on the same JT circuit,along with the straight DC power mark to gain 200 LUX from the LED array.

Circuit used also pictured below.


Brad
Ooo, the magnetic material mixed in the core!
So the cats are out of the bag, good luck with maximising output power from mixed cores. :)

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2702 on: July 13, 2016, 05:19:29 PM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2703 on: July 13, 2016, 06:50:06 PM »
Well im so sorry MH,i did not know just how dyslexic you are,and you need spoon feeding with every single diagram,because you are just too stupid to know that the black marker indicatse  scope ground,the yellow marker indicates the yellow channel on the scope,and the blue marker indicates the blue channel on the scope.

Even when i write  in large capital letters on the diagram,exactly what the scope shot is showing-you still get lost.
It is not my fault you have trouble reading very clear explanations  as to what the scope shot is showing.
It is clear that when you have nothing to complain about,you just make crap up.

Grow up you whining little child.

Brad

But you were embarrassed when you put up a scope capture and were too lazy to put up the schematic and Picowatt told you he couldn't make head or tail of your scope capture, weren't you?  You avoided my question.

Stop acting like a stupid semi-literate oaf when it comes to your communication skills for presenting scope capture data and schematics.  There is no bloody yellow marker on the schematic, there is an orange marker.  Or do you have male colour vision deficiency perhaps and could not tell?

Just get your act together and expend the minimal effort required to present your data properly.

For example, the chart that you just did for the milliwatts in and Lux out for different cores is very good.  But then why would you only plot a single point for the straight DC mark for 200 Lux?  Don't you think your audience would be interested in seeing you plot another five or six points so they could see what the straight DC curve is like?  Because I can assure you they would.  Are you plotting the power to the whole Joule Thief circuit, or are you only plotting the power that is delivered to the LED array itself?  We don't know because you are too lazy to tell us or you lack the communication skills to realize that you should be telling us.  We certainly can't tell from the schematic because there are no test points on it.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2704 on: July 13, 2016, 10:55:02 PM »
Brad, your graph is kind of hard to interpret, because your grid lines don't line up with the axis number values. But going just by the positions of the numbers, it looks like your DC-equivalent value is indicating about 200 Lux at an input power of 20 mW, which translates to a whopping 10000 Lux/Watt.  But in my setup, using the superefficient LED that I've been using all the time, to get 200 Lux at the sensor in my 5x5x18 inch lightbox I have to drive the LED at around 81 mA, 2.96V, which is about 240 mW, and is near the top end of its rating. This corresponds to about 830 Lux/Watt.  For any length of time running this would need a heatsink on the LED. These are just about the most efficient LEDs on the market.

So it seems that there must be something funny about the numbers, either yours or mine, because they are clearly not comparable. Are you using an 18 inch lightbox? How are your 9 LEDs connected, and what kind are they? How are you measuring voltage and current in the DC case?

I have some confidence in my measurements because, as I indicated before, I developed this apparatus and methodology for comparison with values that another lab was getting in some tests we both were running.

I can get around a 200 Lux reading by holding my LED at 4-5 inches distance to the lightmeter sensor and providing about 7.5 mW (3 mA at 2.54 V).

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2704 on: July 13, 2016, 10:55:02 PM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2705 on: July 13, 2016, 11:11:15 PM »
Quote
Brad, your graph is kind of hard to interpret, because your grid lines don't line up with the axis number values. But going just by the positions of the numbers...

Well, there you go.  I actually took it for granted that there would be no issue with the grid lines and the values assigned to the grid lines because I have looked at 1000 graphs before and that was never an issue.  So I didn't even bother scrutinizing that part of the data.  It's an almost unbelievable offense to good practices when presenting data.  Both axes are messed up.

And we can assume that poor Brad is going to put on his thinking and strategy cap and come up with a very creative excuse that puts him in the clear because he is going to cling to some real or imaginary technicality.

Offline minnie

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2706 on: July 13, 2016, 11:54:15 PM »



tinman,the little r for a 1.5 v AA alkaline cell is about .2.
It should be capable of 7.5 amps.
       John.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2706 on: July 13, 2016, 11:54:15 PM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2707 on: July 14, 2016, 12:31:19 AM »
Brad, your graph is kind of hard to interpret, because your grid lines don't line up with the axis number values. But going just by the positions of the numbers, it looks like your DC-equivalent value is indicating about 200 Lux at an input power of 20 mW, which translates to a whopping 10000 Lux/Watt.  But in my setup, using the superefficient LED that I've been using all the time, to get 200 Lux at the sensor in my 5x5x18 inch lightbox I have to drive the LED at around 81 mA, 2.96V, which is about 240 mW, and is near the top end of its rating. This corresponds to about 830 Lux/Watt.  For any length of time running this would need a heatsink on the LED. These are just about the most efficient LEDs on the market.

So it seems that there must be something funny about the numbers, either yours or mine, because they are clearly not comparable. Are you using an 18 inch lightbox? How are your 9 LEDs connected, and what kind are they? How are you measuring voltage and current in the DC case?

I have some confidence in my measurements because, as I indicated before, I developed this apparatus and methodology for comparison with values that another lab was getting in some tests we both were running.

I can get around a 200 Lux reading by holding my LED at 4-5 inches distance to the lightmeter sensor and providing about 7.5 mW (3 mA at 2.54 V).

TK

I am still using my small 8 inch light box,as i still have not finished the larger one base around your dimensions,as the paint takes a long time to dry,when the temperatures are around 10*C here ATM. As far as the nine LEDs go,i am not sure how they are connected,as the small PCB they are mounted on is all glued into the ali housing of the torch body,and i cant remove it.

The light beam is focused toward the light meter sensor,and so that would be the reason why the readings are so high-i would think.Once i get the light box all done,and switch to an LED such as yours,i would think it will all drop down to close to your values.

As far as the graph go's,it was just a quick throw together job on windows paint,as i do not get a lot of time after work to get all fancy,but it dose give you a general ideal,and by following a horizontal axis from the lux number,and a virtical axis from the Mw value,each dot represents the results obtained from the tests. I used a 1 0hm CVR to measure current,and the voltage was set at 1.5 volts from my PSU,and also measured with a DMM across a 10 000uF smoothing cap.


Brad

Offline tinman

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2708 on: July 14, 2016, 12:33:05 AM »


tinman,the little r for a 1.5 v AA alkaline cell is about .2.
It should be capable of 7.5 amps.
       John.

And when the battery voltage is at 1v,little r is how much ?

Brad

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2708 on: July 14, 2016, 12:33:05 AM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2709 on: July 14, 2016, 05:49:57 AM »
TK

I am still using my small 8 inch light box,as i still have not finished the larger one base around your dimensions,as the paint takes a long time to dry,when the temperatures are around 10*C here ATM. As far as the nine LEDs go,i am not sure how they are connected,as the small PCB they are mounted on is all glued into the ali housing of the torch body,and i cant remove it.

Ah.. OK, they are probably all in parallel then. You could test that by looking at the voltage required to turn the lights on, should be the same as for a single separate LED, rather than twice or three times that much. Sometimes these setups even include a small current-limiting resistor tucked away on the PCB.

I have a 24 LED array that came from a cheap LED flashlight that used 3 AAs,  that was originally all LEDs in parallel, with a tiny resistor, but I rewired it to be 2 series arrays of 12 parallel each and ditched the resistor. I use this for some JT demonstrations (but not of course for our testing here.)
Quote

The light beam is focused toward the light meter sensor,and so that would be the reason why the readings are so high-i would think.Once i get the light box all done,and switch to an LED such as yours,i would think it will all drop down to close to your values.

Yes, I'm sure that explains it, the focussed beam and the close distance. That's the problem with using Lux, it is a measure of the illumination falling on a surface rather than the output of the light itself, but that's all we have to work with.
Quote

As far as the graph go's,it was just a quick throw together job on windows paint,as i do not get a lot of time after work to get all fancy,but it dose give you a general ideal,and by following a horizontal axis from the lux number,and a virtical axis from the Mw value,each dot represents the results obtained from the tests. I used a 1 0hm CVR to measure current,and the voltage was set at 1.5 volts from my PSU,and also measured with a DMM across a 10 000uF smoothing cap.


Brad
The 1.5 volts must be for the JT measurements, not the single DC equivalent point, right? As the LEDs in your 9-led array will not shine with only 1.5 volts DC, right?

Anyhow, I figured that the numbers on your graph were in the right place and the grid lines were misplaced, so it didn't really cause me much grief. But really, for great ease in recording and organizing data and turning it into graphs, you could try using a spreadsheet program like Excel or (free and fully functional) LibreOffice Calc:
https://www.libreoffice.org/download/libreoffice-fresh/
(scroll down for the Windows or OSX version installers)
Once you've gotten the hang of graphing using Calc (or Excel), you'll never go back.
The really nice thing about using the spreadsheet program is that if you change your data once you have the graph set up, like to correct an error or just to see how it affects the graph, the graphs change instantly and automatically to show the change. And once you have a graph set up like you like it, to graph a different data set you just need to copy-paste the original graph and then point the copy to your new data set (and edit the titles and other names of course). That's how I did the three graphs I posted up above. It's a snap.

Offline tinman

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2710 on: July 14, 2016, 07:29:24 AM »

Ah.. OK, they are probably all in parallel then. You could test that by looking at the voltage required to turn the lights on, should be the same as for a single separate LED, rather than twice or three times that much. Sometimes these setups even include a small current-limiting resistor tucked away on the PCB.

I have a 24 LED array that came from a cheap LED flashlight that used 3 AAs,  that was originally all LEDs in parallel, with a tiny resistor, but I rewired it to be 2 series arrays of 12 parallel each and ditched the resistor. I use this for some JT demonstrations (but not of course for our testing here.) 
Yes, I'm sure that explains it, the focussed beam and the close distance. That's the problem with using Lux, it is a measure of the illumination falling on a surface rather than the output of the light itself, but that's all we have to work with. The 1.5 volts must be for the JT measurements, not the single DC equivalent point, right? As the LEDs in your 9-led array will not shine with only 1.5 volts DC, right?

Anyhow, I figured that the numbers on your graph were in the right place and the grid lines were misplaced, so it didn't really cause me much grief. But really, for great ease in recording and organizing data and turning it into graphs, you could try using a spreadsheet program like Excel or (free and fully functional) LibreOffice Calc:
https://www.libreoffice.org/download/libreoffice-fresh/
(scroll down for the Windows or OSX version installers)
Once you've gotten the hang of graphing using Calc (or Excel), you'll never go back.
The really nice thing about using the spreadsheet program is that if you change your data once you have the graph set up, like to correct an error or just to see how it affects the graph, the graphs change instantly and automatically to show the change. And once you have a graph set up like you like it, to graph a different data set you just need to copy-paste the original graph and then point the copy to your new data set (and edit the titles and other names of course). That's how I did the three graphs I posted up above. It's a snap.

Thanks for the info on the graphing,i wll download it tonight.

And yes
,the 1.5 volts was only for the JT, not the DC,that is why everything is in  watts.
Also not sure if the light meter gives an accurate account of light,being as i seem to get more light output from my custom made torroid than i do with straight DC-have to look into that a bit  more..


Brad

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2710 on: July 14, 2016, 07:29:24 AM »
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Offline minnie

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2711 on: July 14, 2016, 08:33:19 AM »
And when the battery voltage is at 1v,little r is how much ?

Brad
Oh,you're just too clever for  me!
         John.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2712 on: July 17, 2016, 05:40:49 AM »

Offline ramset

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2713 on: July 17, 2016, 10:52:14 AM »
Tinsel
Very nice link ..
I like the mention of "Gapped core" [sliced toroid]  energy storing characteristics too.

@Brad
"your" custom made Toroid showing some odd results Huh ......?

maybe a Gap could really Dice it up and some external magnets...
 
* Just Musings on Gunderson's  latest share...member Reiyuki's  musings got me thinking .

custom Core material [and Gapped architecture] a very specific Switching methodology and a magnetic wrap ...array ... causing  a Magnetic implosion ??
we are after all at an OU forum.
and A JT circuit is probably a very good Place to Muse ...

where Did Smoky 2 go ? all that very helpful and informative Core material / Resonance spec info he was sharing...

Like a cool Breeze of fresh air  8)



thx
Chet K

Offline minnie

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2714 on: July 17, 2016, 11:10:09 AM »



   Good Koala,don't you just have to love that Dave?
    He shows how to calculate the capacity of an AA
   energiser cell, that should keep the old tinman
   occupied for a week or two!!!
   Perhaps that should have read "measure".
        John.

 

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