Storing Cookies (See : http://ec.europa.eu/ipg/basics/legal/cookies/index_en.htm ) help us to bring you our services at overunity.com . If you use this website and our services you declare yourself okay with using cookies .More Infos here: https://overunity.com/5553/privacy-policy/If you do not agree with storing cookies, please LEAVE this website now. From the 25th of May 2018, every existing user has to accept the GDPR agreement at first login. If a user is unwilling to accept the GDPR, he should email us and request to erase his account. Many thanks for your understanding

Custom Search

### Author Topic: Joule Thief 101  (Read 891992 times)

#### MileHigh

• Hero Member
• Posts: 7600
##### Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2610 on: May 18, 2016, 02:07:44 PM »

You object to my statement stating that when you pump power into an ideal voltage source that that energy is effectively gone and you can forget about it.  That's why when Verpies asked the question I cracked a joke.

So I will ask you the question:  What happens to the energy if you pump 100 watts of power into an ideal voltage source for 10 seconds?

MileHigh

#### tinman

• Hero Member
• Posts: 5365
##### Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2611 on: May 18, 2016, 03:33:47 PM »
Quote

You object to my statement stating that when you pump power into an ideal voltage source that that energy is effectively gone and you can forget about it.  That's why when Verpies asked the question I cracked a joke.

So I will ask you the question:  ?

MileHigh

First we should ask--what is a source?

Source-a place, person, or thing from which something originates or can be obtained.
--a body or process by which energy or a particular component enters a system.
--Place from where things originate.

So you see MH,understanding what a source is,shows us the the source of your ideal voltage(the ideal voltage source) is what contains the energy delivered to the inductor.

If the energy delivered by the ideal voltage source is infinite,then the energy contained within that source is infinite.
The ideal voltage source that delivers the ideal voltage, !is! the source of the energy.

Now you can try as you wish to redefine !source! as you see fit. But the very definition of !source! is from where it comes from--the energy comes from the source--the source contains the energy that is delivered to the receiver--the coil.

So yes-i object to your definition of a source.

Quote
What happens to the energy if you pump 100 watts of power into an ideal voltage source for 10 seconds

As an ideal voltage source dose not dissipate power,then that energy is contained within the source.

#### MileHigh

• Hero Member
• Posts: 7600
##### Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2612 on: May 18, 2016, 05:36:18 PM »
As an ideal voltage source dose not dissipate power,then that energy is contained within the source.

Yeah, so does the ideal voltage source have a counter like a doorman's clicker and it counts Joules that are added to the "container" that contains the energy?

Let me ask you this: Is there any observable difference in the ideal voltage source from before the extra Joules are pumped in to after the extra Joules are pumped in?

#### tinman

• Hero Member
• Posts: 5365
##### Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2613 on: May 19, 2016, 01:42:42 AM »
Yeah, so does the ideal voltage source have a counter like a doorman's clicker and it counts Joules that are added to the "container" that contains the energy?

Let me ask you this: Is there any observable difference in the ideal voltage source from before the extra Joules are pumped in to after the extra Joules are pumped in?

#### MileHigh

• Hero Member
• Posts: 7600
##### Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2614 on: May 19, 2016, 02:02:15 AM »
I am not in the least bit lost and I am waiting for you to answer this question:

Let me ask you this: Is there any observable difference in the ideal voltage source from before the extra Joules are pumped in to after the extra Joules are pumped in?

#### tinman

• Hero Member
• Posts: 5365
##### Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2615 on: May 19, 2016, 01:05:26 PM »
I am not in the least bit lost and I am waiting for you to answer this question:

Let me ask you this: Is there any observable difference in the ideal voltage source from before the extra Joules are pumped in to after the extra Joules are pumped in?

From my point of view,the ideal source(voltage source) would have an infinite amount of stored energy,and so there would be no point in pumping any more energy in there. From your point of view,any energy that is pumped into the ideal voltage source is just gone-vanished without a trace.
There for,in both cases,there is no point in pumping any more energy into the ideal voltage source.

Poynt has confirmed that any energy absorbed by the ideal voltage source,and where we have all agreed that ideal source dose not dissipate energy,then the energy is stored in the ideal voltage source,and there for , dose not just disappear as you say.

I dont think that statement of you saying--the energy is just gone,did you many favors MH,as it was quite stupid. Im sure you know that energy just dose not disappear,so i am lost as to why you would say such a thing.

#### MileHigh

• Hero Member
• Posts: 7600
##### Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2616 on: May 19, 2016, 01:33:19 PM »
When discussing an ideal voltage source, the concept of "an infinite amount of 'stored' energy" is meaningless.  I say the energy is "gone" because you can simply forget about it.  Saying it is "absorbed" is just about the same thing as saying it "disappears."  And ideal voltage source is just an abstraction, so the concept of it absorbing energy or storing energy or even making energy disappear is really meaningless.  It just does what it does, and can output an infinite amount of energy, or you can pump an infinite amount of energy into it, it doesn't make a damn difference in the world.  In that sense, the law of the conservation of energy doesn't even apply to an ideal voltage source and you can say that energy you pump into it is "destroyed" if you want to, it doesn't make a damn difference in the world.  It's really a brain-bender for you, isn't it?

#### tinman

• Hero Member
• Posts: 5365
##### Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2617 on: May 19, 2016, 03:29:57 PM »
When discussing an ideal voltage source, the concept of "an infinite amount of 'stored' energy" is meaningless.  I say the energy is "gone" because you can simply forget about it.  Saying it is "absorbed" is just about the same thing as saying it "disappears."  And ideal voltage source is just an abstraction, so the concept of it absorbing energy or storing energy or even making energy disappear is really meaningless.  It just does what it does, and can output an infinite amount of energy, or you can pump an infinite amount of energy into it, it doesn't make a damn difference in the world.  In that sense, the law of the conservation of energy doesn't even apply to an ideal voltage source and you can say that energy you pump into it is "destroyed" if you want to, it doesn't make a damn difference in the world.  It's really a brain-bender for you, isn't it?

Trying to imagine an infinite amount of anything,is like trying to imagine how large the actual universe is-and were not talking about the !known! universe.
Dose it have an end?,is it just a large dome?,or dose it go on indefinitely?

But just because it has an infinite value,dose not mean you can destroy energy,just the same as you cant make a small part of the universe disappear. The energy being transferred from the coil to the source,is added to that infinite amount-from which it came. Your just sloshing energy back and forth--nothing gained ,nothing lost.

#### MileHigh

• Hero Member
• Posts: 7600
##### Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2618 on: May 19, 2016, 10:31:17 PM »
Trying to imagine an infinite amount of anything,is like trying to imagine how large the actual universe is-and were not talking about the !known! universe.
Dose it have an end?,is it just a large dome?,or dose it go on indefinitely?

But just because it has an infinite value,dose not mean you can destroy energy,just the same as you cant make a small part of the universe disappear. The energy being transferred from the coil to the source,is added to that infinite amount-from which it came. Your just sloshing energy back and forth--nothing gained ,nothing lost.

I told you that an ideal voltage source has nothing to do with the conservation of energy.  Supposing there was a DC outlet in your house that came from the electric utility.  Supposing that it was seven volts DC.  Let's say that you can consider that DC outlet from the electric utility to be an ideal voltage source.  Imagine it's very dangerous and there is not even a fuse associated with the source, and the two wires that bring the DC to your house are five inches in diameter.  It's so dangerous that if you put a 1" x 1" rectangular bus bar across the source that it would instantly explode and become vaporized metal.

So what if you bought a brand new big beefy car battery and connected it to the seven-volt ideal voltage source and went away for one day?  When you returned the next day the brand new battery would be dead, and probably ruined.

So on the first day you had a brand new battery with who knows how many mega Joules stored in it.  The next day the battery is dead and has no Joules in it.

Where did the energy go?

The answer is for all practical intents and purposes the energy disappeared.

You don't care what's behind the seven-volt DC ideal voltage source provided by the utility company.  As far as you are concerned the DC outlet in your wall and the utility company are just a black box.

So who is the person that is really lost?  Who is the person that sometimes has no imagination, or sometimes imagines all sorts of things that make no sense like on the other thread?

Sorry, but you are going to have to eat your words.  You were lost, and you still are lost.  You still haven't demonstrated that you understand the simple circuit from start to finish, and you are still stuck on another false notion.  You still haven't met the two simple goals that I stated, and the hope is still that you will reach those goals.

If you want to take a sobering look at yourself, go and read your technical arguments from the beginning of the question thread and see how ridiculous they are and see how far you have come.

The worst thing that could have been done would have been to give you the answer to the first question at the start of the question thread, and you asked for it repeatedly.  For the technical issues being discussed in the question thread, I have probably covered them forty to fifty times over the past six years.  You were reading me then so what the hell were you doing?  Were you asleep and just ignored what I said, did it all pass right through you like you weren't even there, or did you mutter an arrogant chuckle to yourself because "you knew better?"

You got into the discussion here with me, and you started the brand new question thread, being completely and utterly clueless about inductors, essentially in the very same boat as Wattsup and EMJunkie.  Yet you have been playing with coils for six years.  Let's hope that in the end you achieve the two goals that I stated for you.  That would be a great thing.

MileHigh

#### partzman

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 379
##### Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2619 on: May 19, 2016, 11:18:56 PM »
In the case of an ideal voltage source, it is evident that it can source an infinite amount of energy to an ideal inductor for an infinite amount of time. Does it not make sense that it should also be capable of sinking an infinite amount of energy from an ideal inductor for an infinite amount of time?  If not, why?

partzman

#### MileHigh

• Hero Member
• Posts: 7600
##### Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2620 on: May 20, 2016, 03:19:14 AM »
If you used a resistor to discharge the inductor,, when you connected the resistor what voltage would you see,, I think that would be 4V.

Forget it Webby, you are clutching at straws.  The best thing you could do is hope and pray that Brad gets through this to the end and try to ride on his coattails.

#### wattsup

• Hero Member
• Posts: 2606
##### Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2621 on: May 20, 2016, 05:13:17 AM »
@MH

This is the last time you will use my @username in your trophy room with the other heads of those you have wangled so long. I tried and tried to explain to you that your question was not properly formulated and that I understood it to be the result of one applied 4 volts.  I have known many like. There is no talking to you. So just understand this. Go fuck yourself.

wattsup

#### MileHigh

• Hero Member
• Posts: 7600
##### Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2622 on: May 20, 2016, 05:36:35 AM »
Wattsup:

You have caused trouble and unneeded drama in this discussion.  Technically you contributed nothing.  The only person that seemed to be having trouble with the question is you.  Then a graph of the voltage waveform was posted, what more do you want?  Understand this: Stick to water filtration systems.

MileHigh

#### partzman

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 379
##### Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2623 on: May 20, 2016, 05:20:18 PM »
I like the idea of introducing a resistor,,

What I would notice is that as the resistance I add goes up so does the voltage,, as it goes down so does the voltage.

So If we did not have all these fancy formulas,, and I had made that observation,, I would want to build a formula to model it

The same thing happens with all "new" things we find,, but I ask myself if the observations themselves were complete and if all of the interactions are appreciated and attributed correctly.

The formula works very close in the real world,, so close that you can make very very precise approximations,, but if not all interactions are appreciated and some that are not are attributed to the wrong interaction the formula might still work just as well but only for predicting a specific outcome.

Let's assume we apply a resistor in parallel to the 5H inductor at T5 and at the same time we remove the 4v ideal voltage source. At that instant in time, what in your opinion would be the voltage and the polarity across this resistor relative to ground with the following values?

R = 1.6666 ohms

R = 10 ohms

R = infinity

In general from this instant in time, what type of slope do we see in the voltage and current waveforms as we continue on in time?

partzman

edit

#### partzman

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 379
##### Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2624 on: May 20, 2016, 06:17:45 PM »
let me look it up and see what I find,,, then apply it to give the correct values.

man,, making me work

My assumption would be to start with, that at an infinite resistance the voltage would also be infinite,, and then I am assuming that you chose values to make things easy for me

Also I would assume that at 0 resistance the voltage would be 0

Yes, you are correct on all the above

partzman