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### Author Topic: Joule Thief 101  (Read 940311 times)

#### Magluvin

• Hero Member
• Posts: 5884
##### Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2565 on: May 14, 2016, 05:20:40 AM »
Mags, do you have a function generator? Does it produce square waves? Can you center the square wave about 0V so that there is a positive half and a negative half of the wave form? If not, surely you are aware that they exist and that they can produce these and other types of wave forms where the voltage might vary with time as it progresses through its cycle, i.e. 50% at +5V, and 50% at -5V for eg.?

Have you heard of an Arbitrary Wave Form Generator? Check it out. It can be programmed to generate almost any wave form imaginable, including the one MH posed in his question. It can be set up so that it is a single shot, exactly as in MH's question.

Now, if we pretend this generator is "ideal", i.e. it has zero output impedance, then this is precisely what MH is referring to in his question.

Any component is "ideal" when and if its impedance is zero. An ideal diode would not only have zero ON resistance, but it would require an infinitely small forward voltage to forward bias it. Any inductor is ideal when its series resistance is zero Ohms (we assume it has no capacitance when it is ideal).

Yes i am familiar with a function gen. I just have simple ones at the moment but they do it to their limits. Square, sine, pulse, triangle, pulse width, offset, phase shift, modulation, am/fm, etc. Yeah I know them

To say the ideal source has zero impedance, is that impedance a variable resistance in the real world? So we could also say that the zero impedance is like zero resistance, because it remains at zero. No?

If yes, then we cannot have a measurable voltage output as brad says. maybe it seems nitpicky, but if we have to think deep on this, then we are. Ok, its pretend. So I guess the whole ideal thing is not just dealing with supeconducting components, and many more factors are just eliminated for purpose of discussion. Like cemf, as you posed it, you dont seem to know what that is when considering the inductor. At least according to one of your posts to me. So is the cemf just eliminated for discussion in the pretend ideal world? Just wondering.

Like ideal inductors have zero capacitance, and Ideal caps have no inductance, which are further than impossible as compared to just eliminating resistance.

Where this all started I think is when someone brought up the cap to cap scheme. Then the ideal cap to cap thing. We wouldnt be here right now if we had just stuck to real world devices where things are understood as is. Ideal world just doesnt simplify things for me. It doesnt help me understand inductors better than just testing them with a very low resistance, then a medum and then a very high resistance, and then it is what it really is. But all the ideal, pretend as you put it, is just pretend to a point that one could go on questioning pretend things when the real stuff in on our benches.  But thats just me. I suppose.

Mags

#### Magluvin

• Hero Member
• Posts: 5884
##### Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2566 on: May 14, 2016, 05:23:07 AM »
Here is one more.  Miles certainly does get around!

Im actually a Fox fan.  if they didnt show what they do, we could easily be back in the movie '1984' already.

Mags

#### Pirate88179

• elite_member
• Hero Member
• Posts: 8366
##### Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2567 on: May 14, 2016, 05:25:52 AM »
Im actually a Fox fan.  if they dint show what they do, we could easily be back in the movie '1984' already.

Mags

I agree totally.

Bill

#### Magluvin

• Hero Member
• Posts: 5884
##### Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2568 on: May 14, 2016, 05:46:40 AM »
I agree totally.

Bill

Propaganda is a powerful thing. We just dont have enough counter propaganda to overcome the source propaganda. Not an ideal world, soo.

I talk to people about foods, organics, gmo, etc.  Many just say bahh. Your a nut.  Just read an article of a dairy farm in N Fl that sells natural milk. They were approached by the FDA and they told them that they cannot print the words 'natural skim milk' on their containers because they did not add 'artificial' vitamin D to it. So they either had to change the label to "artificial skim milk' or stop sales.      What???  So the farm dumps all the skim milk until it is possibly resolved, as they will not label their product as artificial. These are grass fed cows and no antibiotics or steroids.

There is definitely something very wrong going on in the food industry. At least there are still some that care about their products.

Mags

#### Magluvin

• Hero Member
• Posts: 5884
##### Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2569 on: May 14, 2016, 05:56:33 AM »

Propaganda is a powerful thing. We just dont have enough counter propaganda to overcome the source propaganda. Not an ideal world, soo.

I talk to people about foods, organics, gmo, etc.  Many just say bahh. Your a nut.  Just read an article of a dairy farm in N Fl that sells natural milk. They were approached by the FDA and they told them that they cannot print the words 'natural skim milk' on their containers because they did not add 'artificial' vitamin D to it. So they either had to change the label to "artificial skim milk' or stop sales.      What???  So the farm dumps all the skim milk until it is possibly resolved, as they will not label their product as artificial. These are grass fed cows and no antibiotics or steroids.

There is definitely something very wrong going on in the food industry. At least there are still some that care about their products.

Mags

Ive been doing the raw milk thing for 2 yrs. In the first 2 months, lower back pain, knee pain and arthritis symptoms in the hands, all went away at the same time.

A new guy at work says he is diagnosed lactose intolerant. Cant have it.  But then he said he drinks raw milk every day.    So, is it milk that is the problem for lactose intolerant people, or is it the modified shmacked up stuff sold in stores? Think.    I cannot drink any store bought milk as I will get constipated bad. But the raw is no problem for me.     Again, milk as in real natural milk is not the problem, its what they do to it that hurts us.

\$10 a gal, 1 gal a week.  \$1.42 a day for my health is worth it.

Mags

#### tinman

• Hero Member
• Posts: 5365
##### Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2570 on: May 14, 2016, 06:56:17 AM »
"Why is cemf being discussed? I don't see it being relevant here. If you believe it is, explain."

No problem.  In order for the inductor to impede the input, what needs to occur for that impedance to happen? It isnt just something where we say, Oh, its value is 5H so the time constant for the current rise is what it is. What is it that is pushing back on the input in order to limit it over time? Is that not Counter EMF when it is all said and done? So we apply the input and the intial current sets up the initial building of the field. And that field from each loop cuts the other loops inducing reverse currents that oppose the input. Is that induced reverse current that is opposing the input not called Counter EMF?

If you agree, then what causes the CEMF to be less than the input in a lossless world? What is the limiting factor that keeps the cemf always less than the input?

So our stand is the possibility of the cemf being ideal in the ideal inductor. If not, as MH says, then we would like to know why. Its not a crazy thought. Ac has stated the same. If we were not really using our brains at all, this would be a non starter idea.  But so far Brad, AC and I, and others along with many more out there, are thinking the same thing. Not just us few.  I spelled it out quite a few times on this forum that if there is an ideal inductor, void of resistance, that there might be a chance that current may not flow under those ideal conditions when there is no loss. If it is ideal, then where do we associate losses enough in that ideal situation that the cemf is less than the input so current will flow and gain over time as we know it?

Mags

In an ideal situation,everything has an equal and opposite,and that would include the CEMF being equal and opposite to the EMF that created it.
As i said,there are those that have a hard time dealing with two words--ideal and infinite.

You will see that there is also an avoidance to answering the simple questions i have asked with the simple attached diagrams in the other thread--no direct answer has yet been given by any of those that deem MHs question has a simple answer.

#### Magluvin

• Hero Member
• Posts: 5884
##### Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2571 on: May 14, 2016, 07:43:34 AM »
In an ideal situation,everything has an equal and opposite,and that would include the CEMF being equal and opposite to the EMF that created it.
As i said,there are those that have a hard time dealing with two words--ideal and infinite.

You will see that there is also an avoidance to answering the simple questions i have asked with the simple attached diagrams in the other thread--no direct answer has yet been given by any of those that deem MHs question has a simple answer.

Yes, I have been seeing it for some time. The avoidance is odd. Like even Poynt asking me what cemf has to do with inductors.

Its strange that you and I have the same understanding, yet this episode is the first for us both to be in. I dont get it that they dont get it.

Well its all pretend anyway. Im building the new coils for the resonance. Im feeling good about it after that last learning experience.  Learned a lot on the best way to move to the next step, and it can only get better.

Mags

#### tinman

• Hero Member
• Posts: 5365
##### Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2572 on: May 14, 2016, 12:02:49 PM »
So you loose half of the stored energy when doing a cap to cap transfer hey

Well that means the motor in the video below,was not only running on nothing,it was also putting energy back into the system

#### tinman

• Hero Member
• Posts: 5365
##### Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2573 on: May 14, 2016, 12:56:14 PM »
So ,after some testing of my own on the cap to cap transfer,by way of a 12 volt LED in series with the caps,i have found that you do not loose half of your stored energy when doing the transfer.
See diagram below for details and circuit used.

Awaiting for the MH paradox to kick in.

P.S--that should be end total of joules x 2= 900.422mJ,not 900.442mJ

#### tinman

• Hero Member
• Posts: 5365
##### Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2574 on: May 14, 2016, 01:29:24 PM »

Oh,a conundrum -->the MH paradox lol.

Quote
Here is the simple conclusion:  It doesn't matter what value of resistor you use you always lose half the energy.  Hence when you short two caps together with "no resistor" you still lose half the energy.

Once again--very wrong.
You do not loose half of the energy--you loose less than that.
Repeated bench experiments prove this to be the case.

Quote
So let's switch to plan B and put the ideal inductor between the two ideal caps.  Now the energy cycles back and forth between each cap forever.

The ideal inductor give back exactly what it receives-->couldnt agree with you more

Quote
When the 10-volt cap is shorted to the 0-volt cap you lose half the energy and both caps are at 5 volts.

Nope--you dont loose half the enrgy

Quote
Here is another way to look at the same thing:  On an axle you have three things:  A flywheel, a remote controlled clutch, and then another flywheel.  The clutch is between the two flywheels.  You spin up the first flywheel to 100 RPM.  The other flywheel is not turning.  Then you press the button and the clutch engages and connects them together.  It takes one second for the clutch to fully engage.  The net result is that both flywheels are now spinning together along with the "weightless" clutch at 50 RPM.  When the clutch engaged there was friction between the clutch plates producing heat.

So you install a dog clutch that is either engaged or not--no slipping or loss to heat,and you find to your suprised that the flywheels still end up spinning at 50RPM each.
You are now wondering as to where the energy to create the heat in the clutch in the first experiment came from?.

#### Johan_1955

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 334
##### Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2575 on: May 14, 2016, 01:58:51 PM »

Look / learn how politics work behind the screen! Its all repeating, and Nicky, what did Grumpy than write, related his kids or mine kids!?

#### tinman

• Hero Member
• Posts: 5365
##### Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2576 on: May 14, 2016, 03:21:55 PM »
Quote

Look / learn how politics work behind the screen! Its all repeating, and Nicky, what did Grumpy than write, related his kids or mine kids!?

Really

You drag up a post from 2009

What are you up to Johan?.

#### Johan_1955

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 334
##### Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2577 on: May 14, 2016, 03:47:11 PM »
Look / learn how politics work behind the screen! Its all repeating, and Nicky, what did Grumpy than write, related his kids or mine kids!?

Really

You drag up a post from 2009

What are you up to Johan?.

10 years reading, and preparing a Christmass present!

#### MileHigh

• Hero Member
• Posts: 7600
##### Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2578 on: May 14, 2016, 04:03:08 PM »
Don't even think it Johan.  You posting pictures of a notorious child abuser and comparing that to me is grounds for you getting yourself kicked off this forum.

You stop being a hater and instead try to actually contribute to this forum beyond posting pictures of motorcycles and talking about two-stroke engines.

#### MileHigh

• Hero Member
• Posts: 7600
##### Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2579 on: May 14, 2016, 04:05:39 PM »