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Author Topic: Joule Thief 101  (Read 818064 times)

Offline wattsup

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2385 on: May 11, 2016, 12:56:21 PM »
As the EE World Turns............... just for the fun of it let's play around.

Pushing it further, if you divide something by 1 you get that same thing. Now if you divide something by zero meaning nothing, you are not left with nothing because you still have that something. Your answer is nothing but you still have that something. If you divide it by 2, that something becomes two something halves. Dividing by nothing would mean doing nothing. The zero would mean, don't bother dividing this even though I am asking you to.

So we are taught that 10 / 0 = 0 when we should be taught to not even bother. So to make it more interesting some now say when you divide something by nothing you get infinity. WOW. So now we go from nothing to infinity. Were did that happen in our world. Where is there any infinity in our world. Why would you even want to consider infinity when even the number of brain cells in your grey matter are too finite to even hold that thought.

So first you need to justify what is this famous zero. Why is it equated to infinity. What use does it have besides implying you have zero money in your pocket or is it really you have infinite money in your pocket. Now that would be great would it not. He is so rich he is worth zero. Let's shed them bucks quick.

It's as if this ideal business is a right of passage. After we tell you how to think, this final test of illogical mind games will determine how willing you are to bypass your own god given powers of observation to abdicate it to our teachings and thus earn your position as an EE bread winner. This is more of a cult indoctrination where the leaders of the cult know that if this new mind can accept something as illogical as this ideal construct, even if this person fakes accepting it, he will learn to bow to our intellectual authority. If you learn to play the game, you will feed your family and serve our needs without objection. You will become our new toy and all you needed was zero.

But these ideas are only possible because your main actors are actually unknown to you. They are portrayed as mystical electrons and fields, they flow like Aladdin on his magic carpet. You are like the musician, once you have practiced the notes for however many years it takes, the music plays on its own and you just become the automated vector perceiving yourself as a master in full control.

Zero resistance in an ideal inductor does not provide the copper atoms the bonding strength to withstand infinite current. Oh I forgot, this is let's pretend.

wattsup

Offline tinman

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2386 on: May 11, 2016, 01:14:15 PM »
As the EE World Turns............... just for the fun of it let's play around.

Pushing it further, if you divide something by 1 you get that same thing. Now if you divide something by zero meaning nothing, you are not left with nothing because you still have that something. Your answer is nothing but you still have that something. If you divide it by 2, that something becomes two something halves. Dividing by nothing would mean doing nothing. The zero would mean, don't bother dividing this even though I am asking you to.

 So to make it more interesting some now say when you divide something by nothing you get infinity. WOW. So now we go from nothing to infinity. Were did that happen in our world. Where is there any infinity in our world. Why would you even want to consider infinity when even the number of brain cells in your grey matter are too finite to even hold that thought.

So first you need to justify what is this famous zero. Why is it equated to infinity. What use does it have besides implying you have zero money in your pocket or is it really you have infinite money in your pocket. Now that would be great would it not. He is so rich he is worth zero. Let's shed them bucks quick.

It's as if this ideal business is a right of passage. After we tell you how to think, this final test of illogical mind games will determine how willing you are to bypass your own god given powers of observation to abdicate it to our teachings and thus earn your position as an EE bread winner. This is more of a cult indoctrination where the leaders of the cult know that if this new mind can accept something as illogical as this ideal construct, even if this person fakes accepting it, he will learn to bow to our intellectual authority. If you learn to play the game, you will feed your family and serve our needs without objection. You will become our new toy and all you needed was zero.

But these ideas are only possible because your main actors are actually unknown to you. They are portrayed as mystical electrons and fields, they flow like Aladdin on his magic carpet. You are like the musician, once you have practiced the notes for however many years it takes, the music plays on its own and you just become the automated vector perceiving yourself as a master in full control.

Zero resistance in an ideal inductor does not provide the copper atoms the bonding strength to withstand infinite current. Oh I forgot, this is let's pretend.

wattsup

Quote
So we are taught that 10 / 0 = 0 when we should be taught to not even bother.

If 0 is nothing,and we divide 10 by nothing,then we have not divided 10. So we are left with the full 10 :o
Or,if we ask how many 0's are in 10,there there would be an infinite amount of 0's in 10  :o

The same could apply when you calculate the time constant for an inductor.
Tau=L/R. In an ideal inductor there is no R-->Tau=L/nothing-->Tau=L :o
So now,some how,our time constant has turned into inductance  ::)

See,wasnt that hard to stop time  :P


Brad.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2387 on: May 11, 2016, 01:53:35 PM »
Yes,and normally the voltage across the coil would drop as current starts to flow--but you have an ideal voltage,and so it dose not drop.

You need to brush up on what an ideal coil is MH,and stop thinking in terms of real coils/inductors.

Brad

In both cases for the coil, real and ideal, the voltage across the coil is whatever the voltage is coming from the source, whether that be a real or ideal voltage source.  As current starts to flow, the voltage will be whatever the real or ideal source is imposing on the coil.  There will be no drop like you are suggesting.  The only drop would be from a real voltage source under load, and that has nothing to do with whether the coil is real or ideal.

It's not me that needs to brush up on anything, it's you that needs to understand how a coil works.  Once you achieve that, then hopefully you will be able to answer the question properly and demonstrate that you understand what is going on and can demonstrate competency.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2388 on: May 11, 2016, 01:58:46 PM »
If a simulator can simulate any real world circuit,why dose it crash when trying to simulate the operation of just an ideal inductor ?,why the need to add a series resistor to get the sim to run the simulation?
Why can you calculate the values and operation of your ideal inductor,and yet the sim crashes?.

Brad

Poynt has already explained this to you.  Do you really need for it to be explained to you a second time?  Playing the game of "missing" the first time something is stated and forcing it to be reposted again is just plain silly.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2389 on: May 11, 2016, 02:21:03 PM »
Zero resistance in an ideal inductor does not provide the copper atoms the bonding strength to withstand infinite current. Oh I forgot, this is let's pretend.

wattsup

Honestly, you should be embarrassed by the series of ridiculous comments you have been making.  "But the wire is not thick enough."  "But the coil is going to burn up."

Hey!  We are looking at a problem on paper.  The thickness of the wire and the supposed heat dissipation (none in an ideal coil) have absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with the topic of discussion.  Nothing at all.  What are you even mentioning stuff like this for?  It's like you are a kid in kindergarten with a limited ability to conceptualize that has been plopped down into a grade five class and they are discussing fractions.  You only learn fractions in grade four, so you as the kid in kindergarten are lost.  Some kid says, "I want half of that dollar bill to buy candies and John and Robbie will split the other half for their piggy banks."  You are totally confused and you say, "But you how can you do that, there is only one dollar bill?"  Really, it's annoying to read the nonsense you post sometimes.  It contributes nothing to the discussion, it's like you're on another planet.

Here is the the solution to the divide by zero business:  In a real coil there is a resistance and therefore there is a formula to solve for how it behaves built around an exponential function.  In an ideal coil there is no resistance so the formula does not even apply.  There is no more exponential curve, period.  So you use the right formula to apply to the new circuit, it is as simple as that.

Why all of this discussion about infinite time constants and dividing by zero?  This is all about the mathematical construct of using limits.  What is the limit in the size of the time constant as the resistance approaches zero?  What is the limit in the way the current trace curves as the time constant approaches infinity?  What is the limit in the curvature of a circle as the radius approaches infinity?  This stuff is used every day in science and engineering and mathematics.  It's not a huge intellectual exercise to realize that the trace for the current becomes a straight line as the resistance approaches zero and the time constant approaches infinity.  More importantly, you use the equation that matches the circuit.  There is a different and much simpler equation when discussing ideal coils.

Offline tinman

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2390 on: May 11, 2016, 02:26:14 PM »
Poynt has already explained this to you.  Do you really need for it to be explained to you a second time?  Playing the game of "missing" the first time something is stated and forcing it to be reposted again is just plain silly.

yes. There needs to be a series resistor added in the circuit,just like they do when designing circuits.
The sim will not solve the unsolvable.
Like you,the sim dose not understand ideal.


Brad

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2391 on: May 11, 2016, 02:39:38 PM »
yes. There needs to be a series resistor added in the circuit,just like they do when designing circuits.
The sim will not solve the unsolvable.
Like you,the sim dose not understand ideal.

Brad

The sim could solve for the ideal coil easily.  But the software designers have limits in how high the floating-point numbers can go.  If there is a resistance then the final current through the coil is finite as time goes to infinity.  If there is no resistance then the current through the coil goes to infinity as the time goes to infinity.

The software designers of the sim don't want the sim breaking all the time with out-of-bounds errors for the computational variables.  They know it would make the program seem buggy and unreliable.  So to prevent things like that from happening they force reasonable constraints on what you can enter as a schematic to prevent the software variables from going out of bounds.

If you temporarily remove these intentional restrictions the sim would happily calculate the response of an ideal inductor from t=0 to t=fifty years.

It's you that does not understand "ideal" right now, and like usual you have erected a wall because you are so sure of yourself.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2392 on: May 11, 2016, 02:42:07 PM »
Sure indeed whatever,,

The sim chokes because it is trying to solve for an unsolvable calculation.

You are totally our of your element and some Dunning-Kruger is manifesting in you.  See my previous posting.

Offline poynt99

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2393 on: May 11, 2016, 03:20:08 PM »
Brad,

You may want to refer to Partzman's last sim. He used a very tiny value for his R, and it still gave him the correct answer of 2.4A.

Offline partzman

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2394 on: May 11, 2016, 03:20:32 PM »
yes. There needs to be a series resistor added in the circuit,just like they do when designing circuits.
The sim will not solve the unsolvable.
Like you,the sim dose not understand ideal.


Brad

Tinman,

Have you used or are you familiar with LtSpice? Are you aware there are many various parameters that can be set prior to running a simulation not including the circuit parameters? I can simulate the 5h inductor with a dcr of 1 fohm (1e-15) without crashing so obviously Poynt and I are using different operating parameters. For example, in this particular simulation I am using modified trap for the integration method with the other options being trapezoidal or gear.

Does this possibly change your opinion about simulating this ideal inductor?

Poynt,

I would like to know what parameters you are using to replicate your crash condition.

partzman

Offline tinman

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2395 on: May 11, 2016, 04:25:16 PM »
Tinman,

Have you used or are you familiar with LtSpice? Are you aware there are many various parameters that can be set prior to running a simulation not including the circuit parameters? I can simulate the 5h inductor with a dcr of 1 fohm (1e-15) without crashing so obviously Poynt and I are using different operating parameters. For example, in this particular simulation I am using modified trap for the integration method with the other options being trapezoidal or gear.

Does this possibly change your opinion about simulating this ideal inductor?

Poynt,

I would like to know what parameters you are using to replicate your crash condition.

partzman

No,i am not interested in simulators,i am a hands on man that works with real devices.
Yes,you need to add a resistance to get your sim to work,and as soon as you add that resistance,you no longer have an ideal inductor. You may think it is close,but even that small amount of resistance makes an infinite difference--in other word's,your resistor value looks extremely large as far a a zero resistance value is concerned. You might as well have taken a cup of water from the ocean. To see the difference,take a look below at the screen shots at what ohms law has to say about a very small resistance value ,against no resistance.

Try and get your sim to simulate an ideal inductor(no resistance)--it never will,because like the real world,there needs to be an imperfection added.

Run your sim for 100 seconds like poynt did,and see if the voltage drop's as the current rises--just as a test ;)


Brad

Offline partzman

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2396 on: May 11, 2016, 05:35:51 PM »

Try and get your sim to simulate an ideal inductor(no resistance)--it never will,because like the real world,there needs to be an imperfection added.

Run your sim for 100 seconds like poynt did,and see if the voltage drop's as the current rises--just as a test ;)


Brad

Brad,

I ran the sim for 100s and attached the results below which came out as expected. Using delta I = E*t/L = 4*100/5 = 80 amps. The voltage drop due to this peak current is E = I*R = 80 * 1e-15 = 8e-14 volts which is so small that it doesn't show up on the V(Vin) cursor which indicates 4 volts at the end of the simulation.  The netlist is shown to prove the sim was run with a dcr = 1e-15.  The timestep used is 10us instead of the previous 1us so the sim completed in a reasonable time.

Now let's reason together on this basic issue. If I understand your position correctly, one could logically assume that the initial current in this example at T=0 when the 4 volts is applied would be I = E/R =4/1e-15 = 4e15 amps. This follows your logic that with a dcr = 0 ohms, the current at T=0 would be infinite.  So, as we back off 0 ohms or IOW add an infinitesimally small amount of resistance, the current would no longer be infinite but some finite value following I = E/R.

But this is not what the sim shows which agrees with the real world.  Why is this? Because of the self inductance of the coil. IMO, with a dcr = 0, a coil is a pure inductor and still operates as such.

partzman

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2397 on: May 11, 2016, 06:12:58 PM »
<<< In short MH,, your inclusion of a zero resistance and a zero capacitance was incorrect, you should of asked what they would need to be to match the rating you provided and from there what the rise time or whatever would look like. >>>

No, this is nonsense and foolishness that both you and Brad seem to be subscribing to without any rhyme or reason.  Just like Brad claims that "the inductor is producing current equal and opposite to the ideal voltage source so the current is zero and infinity at the same time" or whatever.  The inductor is producing squat, it's a passive standard circuit element.

This is nothing more than a refusal to learn and willful ignorance and some kind of hokey superstitious belief system plucked from who knows where or what or when.  Just believing that you are right for whatever strange reason does not make it right.

This is just another senseless and ridiculous argument that is hindering progress with respect to the question and actively destroying the learning process for the participants and for those that are reading and want to learn.

Offline Magneticitist

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2398 on: May 11, 2016, 06:27:37 PM »
<<< In short MH,, your inclusion of a zero resistance and a zero capacitance was incorrect, you should of asked what they would need to be to match the rating you provided and from there what the rise time or whatever would look like. >>>

No, this is nonsense and foolishness that both you and Brad seem to be subscribing to without any rhyme or reason.  Just like Brad claims that "the inductor is producing current equal and opposite to the ideal voltage source so the current is zero and infinity at the same time" or whatever.  The inductor is producing squat, it's a passive standard circuit element.

This is nothing more than a refusal to learn and willful ignorance and some kind of hokey superstitious belief system plucked from who knows where or what or when.  Just believing that you are right for whatever strange reason does not make it right.

This is just another senseless and ridiculous argument that is hindering progress with respect to the question and actively destroying the learning process for the participants and for those that are reading and want to learn.

I have never personally believed you to be absolutely wrong, I just personally disagree with the logic behind 0 resistance in the real world so far. And so far, I don't see how any math or sims can provide us the absolute answer. That has absolutely nothing to do with the potential faith I can put into you knowing what you're talking about regarding any other scenario regarding an R value that is not absolute 0. If we were all discussing an R value that is ANYTHING other than 0, this would not be so frustrating.

So I don't see why you feel the need to get offended or lose patience.  It's not like anyone is saying, "Oh wow, you ACTUALLY think that? you must have no idea what you're doing in any other equations then"..

It's more like, "wait.. are you ACTUALLY saying you know for sure what would happen in the real world with your 5h R=0 inductor?"  this is because, I can't really tell to be honest, but it seems like you are saying that with the confidence that it is more than hypothesis..

you said " Just believing that you are right for whatever strange reason does not make it right."

Isn't this what the argument is really about?

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Joule Thief 101
« Reply #2399 on: May 11, 2016, 06:49:30 PM »
No MH,, it is not a refusal from me to learn.

Because at resistance =0 the amps are infinite and you do not have a change of any sort when you are using a percentage of infinite, or any partial value of infinite because they are all infinite.

The reasons the sim needs a small resistance was explained by Poynt, myself, and perhaps Partzman.  So that amounts to a refusal on your part to learn.

Believing that stating that the amps will go to infinity when the resistance is zero is nothing more than you cloning Brad.  And what does that mean?  It means that right now both of you don't have the slightest clue what inductance means, or how an inductor, real or ideal, behaves.

So you have a choice, keep parroting or try to learn what this subject matter is all about.