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Author Topic: Second Stage Joule Thief Circuits  (Read 446949 times)

Offline PaulLowrance

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Re: Second Stage Joule Thief Circuits
« Reply #150 on: November 23, 2009, 06:17:45 PM »
Cool, some details. Thanks for the exp. data Yucca. It sounds like gadget & the gang believe the key is in *large* caps & batteries. Maybe 1F is not enough. Correct me if I'm wrong, but for ages bedini has said the secret is in the battery, more specifically *large* batteries, no?

Paul

Offline innovation_station

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Re: Second Stage Joule Thief Circuits
« Reply #151 on: November 23, 2009, 06:22:08 PM »
sure it is ... 

because he ringgggs the battery ....  :D

useing the kick :o

ist!

shake the electrons out of the material ... 

you see key to this is to keep it MAGNETIC IN THE CORE ... THEN I CAN PUT 500 TUNED OUTPUT COILS ... 0 LOSS!! 

we awake yet ...  8)

Offline jadaro2600

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Re: Second Stage Joule Thief Circuits
« Reply #152 on: November 23, 2009, 06:23:06 PM »
IST< I swear, if you exploded one day, confetti would fly everywhere, and surely we would see all-over-unity! :)
jadaro2600,

Voltage is not an accurate way of determining battery energy-- Key word is "accurate."  For example it's inaccurate to judge how fast an object is moving by human sight alone, but I'll bet you anything I can tell which bowling ball is dropping faster between one that was dropped 5 feet & 100 feet. Here is gadgets claim, which is very obvious,

And I would add that he was talking about the 650F ultracap, right gadget?

Paul
I mean to be constructive to the cause:

I'm not sure I follow you Paul; What I'm asking is How do you know how full a capacitor is - voltage alone is not sufficient to determine this, I could charge a 12v capacitor to 3v, would it be 1/4th full?  Please explain!
For what its worth poynt, I don't see that you've bashed anyone either, you've just been calm and objective as usual.

Last night I replicated the gadget circuit using a constant V source of 1.5V to drive it through a 1ohm non inductive resistor. The charging cap on the OP was a 1F 5V supercap.

[1]
I scoped the input V and I and used my scope to multiply the channels and then perform RMS, thus calculating AVG power in. I timed the run and multiplied power by seconds hence calculating input Joules.

[2]
I measured the start and finish V in the OP cap. Hence calculating output joules. (I was assuming the cap really was 1F)

With tweaking of the base pot I was able to achieve nearly COP 80%.

Perhaps there is something very special about these 650F caps?

Most of these high end capacitor are electrolytic, and act like a fast charging battery.


Gadget, please examine the following pictures and tell me that you're not using a battery?, and instead using a fully charged capacitor as the source?, one say, that you haven't assumed has been fully charged by the joule thief circuit, and instead from a steady independent source?: for instance...use a battery to charge the capacitor, and the insert it into the circuit.

>if what you're saying is true, then persistently changing the source from one to another would eventually cause the voltage on the right (in the charged capacitor) to climb.
>if you not disconnecting the source, then the path will short from positive to negative and, yes, the wire/heater element will get hot when you turn the switch on.
>if you're are disconnecting the source, then flipping the switch, the capacitor will discharge through the heater/wire, but still, the capacitor will have been be charged via the short from the source (battery or capacitor on the left )(+) to ground through the diode into the capacitor on the right.

What you essentially have is a battery on both sides of the oscillator circuit even if one or both of those are capacitors.

In this configuration, the oscillator only serves to boost voltage, barring the math, it is as if you've connected one charge capacitor in parallel with one discharged capacitor. Logically, ignoring the decay of charge associated with leakage, the charge in the full capacitor will become one half what it was and the discharged capacitor will gain one half it's full charge.

What theoretically happens is that the stored capacity on the left at some point in time is cut in half, and at some point in time, the stored capacity on the right is at one half yet the voltage is higher ( due to the oscillator ).

Over unity would occur is if the stored capacity on the right is one half BEFORE the stored capacity on the left is one half - which will not likely be the case because of the oscillator having a path to ground, thus it is discharging current.

Offline PaulLowrance

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Re: Second Stage Joule Thief Circuits
« Reply #153 on: November 23, 2009, 06:23:39 PM »
It says 30$+9$ for shipping within US only, no other country can be chosen.

Broli, did you read the page. Scroll down 2.5  pages and it says,

For International Sales and Technical questions please email hlandis@hotmail.com

Paul

Offline innovation_station

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Re: Second Stage Joule Thief Circuits
« Reply #154 on: November 23, 2009, 06:28:02 PM »
thanks j2600


so now you see how all of this ties right into teleportation ...

what is occouring in the battery ...

is how i seperate your spins ...

same deal!

w814

but it im sure is done boom  a 1 zap pulse ... and your just gone ... here there where ever  tic boom
tic boom

faster than light ...  the caps are filled faster than light ...  hence the gain of time tesla speeks of ..

you got to use hot to seperate cold  and cold to seperate hot ...

ac hot cold tho  not hot + 0 hot -   this is wrong ...   this fights nature   you must work with her

Offline gadgetmall

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Re: Second Stage Joule Thief Circuits
« Reply #155 on: November 23, 2009, 06:45:54 PM »
@jarado  It works as i posted . all the number . The problem is most of you DOn't have the New technology 650farad 2.7 volts BATTERY CAPACITOR > they are not related in any way to the old technology . take a full 2.7 volts @3500 amps (SPecs) and do the math fromthat . Also keep in mind what i have already said 5 times before you cannot charge this cap up with a 1.4 volts battery or for that fact you will smoke you 10 amp 12 volt battery charger trying to charge one up . I said i charge this cap up to full capacity from a 1.4 volt battery and the battery is still 1.4 after i charge it. if i go .r to the 100th and thousands scale then 1.495 AA battery 2500 ma  STart 1.495 battery end -cap fully charged at the rating 2.6 at 2500amps or just a fraction less  . Energy Stored including Jouled /watts amps are way Over the unity of the run battery volts and apm . you see?. and yes for the 15 th time i did three experimenst covering all the bases and now i am still doing an experiment giving you the time  battery volts and Bcap volts with a 7 year old cadinium china battery with less than 850ma rating when it was new . Volts are porportional to AMPS an Untra cap . Its a sort of solid state battery . way more powerfull than a single cell in a led acid car battery . powerfull and the power out put can be taken off SLOW for days weeks or i can discharge it like i do with Nichrome wire heater to a volts that i wanted to get to . 1 volt. Anyways . you all I can't answer anymore questions . I am on My way to radio Shack and get a few solder breadboards to build the self run circuit  l8r

"...Ultracapacitors have greater specific power (more than 1.5kW/kg) than conventional or advanced batteries; and higher specific energy (of about 3 to 5 Wh/kg) than aluminum electrolytic capacitors (Dietrich, 2001; Burke and Miller, 2002). Their advantage over batteries, in terms of power, is due to their reduced equivalent series resistance (ESR) and that in these elements, unlike batteries, there are no chemical reactions involved in the process of charge and discharge. Therefore, the speed needed to deliver energy does not depend on the speed of such reactions or the ability of chemical components to recombine, but on electrostatic phenomena, which does not require molecular mutation to take place. Also, the longer cycle life and good behavior at low temperatures (Schneuwly and Smith, 2005) are important advantages..."


Gadget
there you go again BUD.  Asking the same questions over and over and over  and Now Badgering me with you SEE this is what i liek to read BLA BLA BLA go play with you spice program and input the number and let do the math for you so wount have to lift a finger . I don't this you ever built a joule thief anyways . One more comment like that and your history .
Al
« Last Edit: November 23, 2009, 08:02:01 PM by gadgetmall »

Offline PaulLowrance

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Re: Second Stage Joule Thief Circuits
« Reply #156 on: November 23, 2009, 07:02:18 PM »
I said i charge this cap ["650farad 2.7 volts BATTERY CAPACITOR"] up to full capacity from a 1.4 volt battery and the battery is still 1.4 after i charge it

You see, those are the kind of statements I love to read! Because if you're correct, then I'd bet with anyone that it must be > cop 1 *unless* for obvious reasons there was something seriously wrong with your cap or voltage meter or what equipment used.

... looking forward to testing your claim.

Regards,
Paul

Offline poynt99

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Re: Second Stage Joule Thief Circuits
« Reply #157 on: November 23, 2009, 08:28:06 PM »
For what its worth poynt, I don't see that you've bashed anyone either, you've just been calm and objective as usual.

Last night I replicated the gadget circuit using a constant V source of 1.5V to drive it through a 1ohm non inductive resistor. The charging cap on the OP was a 1F 5V supercap.

[1]
I scoped the input V and I and used my scope to multiply the channels and then perform RMS, thus calculating AVG power in. I timed the run and multiplied power by seconds hence calculating input Joules.

[2]
I measured the start and finish V in the OP cap. Hence calculating output joules. (I was assuming the cap really was 1F)

With tweaking of the base pot I was able to achieve nearly COP 80%.

Perhaps there is something very special about these 650F caps?

Thanks Yucca, much appreciated :)

Also appreciated is your test effort and clear, concise, and frank reporting of the results. More folks ought to aspire to this.

I've started a new JT thread here:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8345.msg210413#msg210413

.99

Offline PaulLowrance

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Re: Second Stage Joule Thief Circuits
« Reply #158 on: November 23, 2009, 08:31:49 PM »
I'm not sure I follow you Paul; What I'm asking is How do you know how full a capacitor is - voltage alone is not sufficient to determine this, I could charge a 12v capacitor to 3v, would it be 1/4th full?  Please explain!
Most of these high end capacitor are electrolytic, and act like a fast charging battery.

I don't what you're talking about because in my reply to your statement I never said anything about how full a capacitor is. My reply to you was clearly about batteries. Which do you to talk about. Here's your quote,

Quote
Voltage isn't a great indication of power, in order to fully measure the power in watts, or coulombs, you would need a way to measure exactly how 'full' you capacitor really is.

In terms of conventional science, you can calculate the energy in a battery or capacitor. I've provided one example for 12V car batteries. As far as capacitors, I think everyone here knows the equations. If you want to know how full a capacitor is, then it would be the caps voltage rating.

Paul

Offline PaulLowrance

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Re: Second Stage Joule Thief Circuits
« Reply #159 on: November 23, 2009, 08:39:27 PM »
I would like to say that there is nothing wrong with using a battery, supercap / ultracap in such test so long as the tester knows how to properly determine the amount of energy contained in it, which is not that difficult given control experiments.

Paul

Offline innovation_station

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Re: Second Stage Joule Thief Circuits
« Reply #160 on: November 23, 2009, 08:49:37 PM »
I don't what you're talking about because in my reply to your statement I never said anything about how full a capacitor is. My reply to you was clearly about batteries. Which do you to talk about. Here's your quote,

In terms of conventional science, you can calculate the energy in a battery or capacitor. I've provided one example for 12V car batteries. As far as capacitors, I think everyone here knows the equations. If you want to know how full a capacitor is, then it would be the caps voltage rating.

Paul

i do agree you can achieve ou with batteries ...  caps are cleaner ...  ;)  all the way round ..

about what i quoted here

you bring up an extreamlly good point here

amps is crap ... good for work... slow work ...   volts are key   volts to amps in a cap ... 

is a CAP OU BY ORIGNAL DESIGN ....  ;D

lol

is

i bet they make really good volts to amps ... convertors   or if you prefer translating devices...  may include batteries  ;D

turbo

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Re: Second Stage Joule Thief Circuits
« Reply #161 on: November 23, 2009, 09:01:10 PM »

I said i charge this cap up to full capacity from a 1.4 volt battery and the battery is still 1.4 after i charge it.


This is likely to happen if you take but 650 Uf from a 1.4 volt battery...
What would you expect that it will drop by half a Volt??
No ...you can actually refill that cap many times before you will notice a voltage drop on the battery...while using regular equipment.

It's normal.
M.

Offline PaulLowrance

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Re: Second Stage Joule Thief Circuits
« Reply #162 on: November 23, 2009, 09:28:36 PM »
This is likely to happen if you take but 650 Uf from a 1.4 volt battery...
What would you expect that it will drop by half a Volt??
No ...you can actually refill that cap many times before you will notice a voltage drop on the battery...while using regular equipment.

It's normal.
M.

It's not 650 uF. It's 650 farads, or 650 million uF,

http://cgi.ebay.com/Maxwell-650-Farad-Ultracapacitor-Electric-Vehicle-Solar_W0QQitemZ370233804626QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item5633a78752


turbo

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Re: Second Stage Joule Thief Circuits
« Reply #163 on: November 23, 2009, 09:33:41 PM »
Aha those Alien caps  :o

Well then it needs to be looked into  :)

Offline PaulLowrance

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Re: Second Stage Joule Thief Circuits
« Reply #164 on: November 23, 2009, 09:51:20 PM »
Alien cap would be a cool name!  ;D

As a comparison to energy density, WikiPedia states, "3-5 W.h/kg for an ultracapacitor compared to 30-40 W.h/kg for a battery). It is also only about 1/10,000th the volumetric energy density of gasoline."  Of course they're talking about a typical ultracap, but wikipedia also says in the same page, "Carbon aerogel capacitors have achieved 325 J/g (90 Wh/kg) energy density"

I guess one of these days capacitors will surpass the energy density of gasoline, but it's still far away.

Paul