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Mechanical free energy devices => mechanic => Topic started by: JackH on March 11, 2006, 05:58:55 AM

Title: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: JackH on March 11, 2006, 05:58:55 AM
Hello All,


Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: lancaIV on March 11, 2006, 02:36:40 PM
Your work progress in comparation:
from picture 1:Flynn rotative motor
to last picture:Oskar Becker Multi-e-magnets motor,compact !
You are approving the work of many other inventors,congratulations !
The first exposed "overunity" motor would have as consequence that
the e-sector would make an "all-patents/publication-review" and they can
deny special claims,because:global technical standart !
For the 3rd world this has to be seen as "present" !

Sincerely
            de Lanca
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: lancaIV on March 12, 2006, 05:03:16 AM
I hope,for you,that eventual protests/trials of denying will not get "fruits" !
Be carefull !

Sincerely
            de Lanca
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: FredWalter on March 12, 2006, 08:06:00 PM
I have four patents pending on the mechanical valve, electrical valve, Motor, and Generator.

I'm interested in reading the patent applications. What search terms should I use at http://appft1.uspto.gov/netahtml/PTO/search-bool.html in order to find them?

I searched using the following phrases, and I was unable to find any relevant US patent applications for you or your devices:

hilden-brand
hildenbrand
electromagnetic motor
electromagnetic generator
electrical valve
low rpm motor
low rpm generator

Since US patent applications are publically available, the fact that I cannot find any US patent applications made by you, or made for your devices, implies to me that you have no US patent applications.

I find it interesting that you are asking people for money, given that I can't find the US patent applications that you claim to have made.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: hartiberlin on March 14, 2006, 06:45:15 AM
Hi JackH,
how did you measure your output power versus input power ?
Do you have DC as the input power ?
Thanks.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Elvis Oswald on May 18, 2006, 09:49:35 AM
Jack,

I have a question (or two) about your motor (if you don't want to answer, I'll understand.)  :)

How many rotors does your motor have?  How many poles?

And a general question about your experience with this design - the closest field coil must attract the rotor when the permanent magnet is turned off on that pole... do you account for that by adjusting the power to the field coils or is it just not an issue?
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: hartiberlin on May 18, 2006, 06:55:43 PM
Hi JackH,
how do you measure your efficiency ?
Do you measure the mechanical output via a prony brake
or do you couple to your motor a DC generator and measure DC output versus
DC input power ?
If the latter is true, what kind of DC generator do you use and what is
its efficiency at the used RPM you tested ?
Or the other way asked:
What would you show at a meeting or private demonstration
to prove, that the motors are really overunity ?

Many thanks.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Clarky on May 18, 2006, 07:42:23 PM
He must be talking about co-efficiency of performance, not efficiency.

So to correct that statement if true, his COP is overunity at 250%. His mechanical efficiency (friction, heat, air resistance) will never exceed 100% at best.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: lancaIV on May 18, 2006, 11:32:28 PM
Hello Jack Hildenbrand,
if you have got enough time and an electro-magnet,
could you try to amplify the e-magnet force with your concept ?

Sincerely
            de Lanca

p.s.:it is my own interest to remove the P-magnet by an
E-magnet in the static generator,so you would give me a help !
I know about the P-magnet force amplifying kinds like offered
through "NorthWestmagnets" and "AMS/AMT" and the e-magnet energy savings through "Solenoidcity" !
And the static generator use this closed-magnet-cycle concept !

This is only to show that I am not abusing your PERSON or make
your temptations/work ridiculous,
and this is only the beginning of the C.O.P. over 1,
Oskar Becker:with on/off e-magnet work and LEVER-use:C.O.P.100/200/...

 
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: lancaIV on May 19, 2006, 02:41:06 AM
E=electro
P=permanent

Sincerely
            de Lanca

p.s.: I please you to be carefull with numbers(it shall be in your own
interest) and as example:
the common heat pump has a C.O.P. of +/- 3(or 300%),
but an efficiency under 100% !!!

And as review:When a worker is holding hours-/days-/months-long
a thing -without vectorial movement,ever on the same XYZ point-he is -physics laws related-doing nothing !!!
You have -physics laws related-not to pay a cent for this "labour"!

The worker would shout you:"Silly,mad stupid,....!" but I only
welcome you (and him) to the  "non-/linear physics" !
It is an OFFICIAL PARADOXON WORLD !!!
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: hartiberlin on May 19, 2006, 03:48:22 AM
Hi JackH,
sounds good, but you have to check, if you have placed the electronic scale at the same
height as the axis-shaft of the motor, otherwise you could get a wrong torque arm angle
at this measurement, which could lead to wrong mechanical output.
So as your 0.021 hp motor is putting out around 15 Watts mechanical power as you claim,
does it only comsume 3 Watts of electrical input power ?
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: lancaIV on May 19, 2006, 03:59:41 AM
Hello Jack H.,
I do not want to amplify a permanent magnet force,
I want to get an electro-magnet force amplifycation !!!
My question is-parallel to the permanent magnet amplifycation
factor 15X(AMS/AMT),which amplification factor can I get by use
of an e-magnet ?

Sincerely
             de Lanca
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: hartiberlin on May 19, 2006, 04:02:56 AM
Hi De Lanca, amplification of electromagnet is a Flyn type e-magnet.
But that is only for the static case.
If you want to build a motor with it with
dynamic switch on/off of the electromagnet you are "hit"
again with the Lenz law, so that the Counter EMF "gets" you...

If you can reduce the counter EMF via some kind of trick
and so that the motor is just a motor and not a generator,
then you could get overunity mechanical from it.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: lancaIV on May 19, 2006, 04:19:20 AM
Hello "Moderator",
yes and no !
IT depends of a vertical/horizontal view /arrangement of the
+/- flux axis !(Molina-Martinez,Remigius Ohlmann et c.) !
The Flynn-concept is Permanent-magnet force amplification
oriented,not electro-magnet as primary source !

Probably on Friday(heute) our CONCEPT-Transmuter is ready to
present the functional X-TRON,so I will get the possibility to
show a kind of closed-M.A.S.E.R.-cycle !
Naja,irgendwo eine Camera auftreiben und wie geht es mit Bildern
"versaendaen" ?

Also bis zur naechsten Pulle
 de Lanca
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: lancaIV on May 19, 2006, 05:02:01 AM
Okay JackH,
so let us get idea,with/by  experiments !

Sincerely
            de Lanca
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: jake on May 19, 2006, 01:54:23 PM
I have offered on another thread in this forum to help test Jack's motors.  Once I have seen and verified what he is doing, I'm sure he'll give me permission to report here.

I am contacting him via e-mail to set up an appointment to meet with him to validate his test methods, or to have him bring his motors to my shop where we will independently test.

I am an electrical engineer that operates an industrial automation business, specializing in motion control.  I have a certified Professional Engineer on staff who can validate everything we do if we test at my facility.

I will go on the record as being skeptical of Jack's claims, but at the same time open minded.  The numbers will tell the story.  If, for example his motor really runs at .021 hp at 2.2w input, we will be able to connect a generator and construct an appropriate circuit to supply power back to the motor to get it to self sustain.  .021h out at 2.2w in is producing about 7 times the input power.  Even with a bad generator we will have enough excess power to self sustain.  At 120% efficiency I would be concerned about losses downstream eating up the 20%.  At 500 to 700% the downstream losses won't matter.  There should be plenty of excess power to have 2.2w left to self power the motor.

I have adequate resources and technical expertise to help Jack validate what he is doing.  I don't need a 1/2 hp motor to prove or disprove this.  If his motor is producing .021hp (15+ watts) at 2.2w input it is more than significant enough to prove overunity if everything checks out.  After that it's just a matter of upscaling.

From what I'm reading here, Jack seems to have a good understanding of how to test things, so I hope to validate it and be blown away by the results.

P.S. Jacks motors are works of art while they are standing still as far as I'm concerned.  Beautiful machining work and craftsmanship.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Liberty on May 20, 2006, 01:08:36 AM
Wow, what happened to all of Jack's posts?  Most of his posts are nowhere to be found...

Anyone know what is going on?
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Light on May 20, 2006, 07:05:05 AM
Do not give-up, Jack. All forums have sceptics and un-believers. In yours case there is no necessity to believe - it's a fact.
Just let us a chance to understand the concept closer, pls. Some of us have a not bad ideas, but yours's realy good...
Of course set-up first all your patent business.
Thks, again.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: hartiberlin on May 20, 2006, 11:32:05 AM
Hi Jack, please keep us updated about your progress and new measurements. Your motors look great and I would like to see them running a DC generator, so you could close the loop. Many thanks, regards,Stefan.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: FredWalter on May 20, 2006, 02:42:02 PM
I kinda figured out that this message board is full of skeptics and non-beleivers.

You didn't come here to share info on how to duplicate your invention - even your patent appliation is 'secret'. All you came here for was to ask for money, to help you continue working on your invention.

Can you blame people for being skeptical?

Quote
At the begining I figured that this message board(overunity.com) would reflect it's name and maybe have a lot of positive input.

Given your unwillingness to share details on your invention, the only positive input anyone could have given you was cash. And without any details, or proof that you have something that is real, no one is going to give you a pile of cash. If you look around, you'll notice that where the plans for a device aren't kept a secret, there are a number of people trying to reproduce those devices, with a lot of positive input from the non-reproducers. The magnet motor from Argentina is an example where there is lots of positive input.

That other fellow's idea, of using a small generator, that is scaled to work with your 500% efficient prototype, makes sense. If you could do that, or allowed that fellow to do that, and you ended up with more electrical power out, than in, now *that* would convince some of the skeptics. And make it easier to get investors to beat a path to your door.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Liberty on May 20, 2006, 03:56:28 PM
Fred or anyone else,

Do you know of a small, easy to turn (one with good bearings and is inexpensive to buy) alternator or generator that one could use for under 500 RPM to generate power for a prototype motor such as Jack's or mine?  If it could generate 5-10 volts per 100 RPM or so at say .5 amps or better.

Thanks,

Liberty
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: mark australia on May 20, 2006, 04:36:52 PM
Dear JackH,
You appear to have built some very proffesional devices. However I read through every post and to refer to any of the questions as dumb was disturbing. There is no such thing as a dumb question. Normally a lack of communication is the reason for dumb questions.
I gather you didnt have any further success in your trails...your ten minutes of fame are up. I was following this thread as I watch many developments on this site looking for investment opportunities. I do hope you succeed, and you can contact me privately anytime. Also Jake made you a great offer...you should follow it up.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: valveman on May 20, 2006, 05:38:53 PM
JackH

As for being skeptics, that's our right as long as we all respect other peoples opinion because being skeptical is healthy and is a human trait.  We question what we don't understand so we can learn.  It's better than running around like sheep believing everyone who claims they have some magical device that re-writes the laws of thermodynamics.  Now I am not necessarily talking about your efforts, but you must admit while reading through many claims on the net for free energy, there are lots of con men out there.  I remain a skeptic until either I have tested a overunity device on my own and proved it exists or build one myself.  I have however enjoyed reading about your approach and has given me something to think about.  Those who blatently discredit you and are rude are not IMO skeptics but narrow minded individuals who discredit to make themselves feel superior and have no scientific basis to prove their thesis.

When I question anything I don't understand I always remember this phrase:
"Theory and practice are the same thing, in theory!"

You should not be discouraged by skeptics.  They should  only serve to strengthen your resolve.

On behalf of all skeptics, I say keep going and make us believers.

Cheers,
Valveman
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Elvis Oswald on May 20, 2006, 07:47:54 PM
Actually, I think Jack is sincere.  I never saw him ask for money.  If that's what he was about, he would have taken that offer for resources that he got.
First of all - his references to his motor were in response to questions.  And he offered to explain the details once his patent was approved.

Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Elvis Oswald on May 21, 2006, 01:27:08 AM
Jack,
Good luck on your project.  I know you've put alot of time and thought into it, and I can only imagine the sense of satisfaction you feel and will feel when you are done.  You will deserve that feeling... and I hope that in the end, whatever becomes of the motor will be such that the people of the world will recognize your contribution.

Our first conversation was about money vs. benefiting humanity.  I still stand by my thoughts on that... but I can't bad-mouth you, because I haven't walked a mile in your shoes. :) 
I hope things work out good for everyone on this.

I'm looking forward to your patents being approved, and to the discussion that we can have at that time.

Peace,
Elvis 
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: lancaIV on May 21, 2006, 01:56:03 AM
Hello JackH,
a 2inX2inX1in-Neo-cube is a nice metal-piece,
to see two adults to get this magnet away from a transformer core,
a "fine" show !
Oh yeah,I know physical the damage potential of such a thing !
Not a broken finger,but less "derma" on the left thumb !

We are working in a "neutral" zone,physics related known,
but not defined !"terra incognita"

There are people;f.e.Prof.Trumbly/Kahn or institutions,f.e.
Universidad de Catalunia (Magnet motor)which risks with their publication of FE/OU-devices their "reputation",
but they did or are doing it !

Sincerely
             de Lanca


   
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: FredWalter on May 21, 2006, 04:16:01 AM
Do you know of a small, easy to turn (one with good bearings and is inexpensive to buy) alternator or generator that one could use for under 500 RPM to generate power for a prototype motor such as Jack's or mine?

I don't know where you can buy one, but if you are mechanically inclined, you can make one using the axial flux generator plans found here:

http://www.scoraigwind.com/pmgbooklet/index.htm
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: FredWalter on May 21, 2006, 04:20:12 AM
Fred I think you are verry wrong and refuse to admit it.

I stopped caring what you think when you started calling me names.

Since you deleted all your previous postings, the ones that make you sound like you are solely motivated by money are no longer present.

Oh wait, in a new posting, to Mark, you say:

Mark I am totally not interested in fame, only money.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: lancaIV on May 21, 2006, 04:43:07 AM
To FredWalter:
JackH wrote in the Keelynet-pages about 50K,
now about 500K investors investments,
without to calculate his own work-input,financial and corporal !
When he,JackH,write about "money(-return)",
you (and I)do not know under which conditions !!!
It can be "human",only investment-return orientated,
or speculative-to get the most he/they can receive !

Be patient,please !
Let us look forward and exspect for good results !

Sincerely
            de Lanca
 
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: gn0stik on May 22, 2006, 04:54:43 AM
Hey Jack,
Good to see you didn't completely abandon us here. Many of us are naturally skeptical, as am I after seeing so many claims never come to anything, but even after 1000 devices never amounting to anything we should keep an open mind. Healthy skepticism is the key. Not outright dismissal, as the disinformationists would have us. Keep up the good work. At any rate, I have some questions about your motor?

I see large coils on the motor, so I assume it is an electromagnet motor, not a permanent mag one. And the big neo mag that you crushed your finger with was part of a rotor? Ouch, anyway, in regards to it's operation can you give us an example of another OU type motor that yours most closely resembles so we can get an idea of it's operation and where the "excess" energy comes from?

How did you form your ideas? What was your process of discovery to get you on this path? Were you inspired by the work of others, or did you come about it on your own?

The craftsmanship on your motors is impeccable. Did you mill it yourself or do you have a CNC machine? Or did you send it out to a shop?

Could a "mock up" be built with off the shelf materials?

Lastly, can you throw us a bone? Give us an idea to play with for those of us who are not already biulding a Torbay, a Spinner, a SMOT device, a MEG, or attempting to unravel the mysteries of Steven Mark's devices.


Regards,
gn0stik
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: gn0stik on May 23, 2006, 03:58:11 AM
Hello gn0stik,

Well I guess you could call it an electric motor, however the permanent magnets deliver over %80 of the energy to make it run.  The electrical input is very small.

The large coil on the top is only there to activate the permanent magnets and use a very small amount of power.   The coil is wound to operate of around 100 VDC at under .20 amps.  That is about 20 watts total, and that would be at stalled rotor.  At 300 RPM it will be somewhat less than that.  There are no permanent magnets in the rotor, only coils. As far as I know there is nothing out there that is even close to what I'm building.   There is no excess energy. The energy this motor uses is almost totally comming from permanent magnets and a small amount of electrical energy.  I do not consider it to be overunity, however I do think it will provide free energy.

I don't consider anything "over unity" even if it does provide free energy. I believe even in situations where you get more (perceived) power out than in, you are harnessing something else, be it the atmosphere, zpe, "orgone"(if that even exists), or what have you. I get your drift.

Quote
As for how I formed my ideas, well it took alot of experimenting, I could fill a pickup truck with old motor parts I have built.  I have been working with this kind of thing for over 25 years.

Yes I do all my own machine shop work with just a standard vertical milling machine and lathe, and a few other small machines.  Thank for the compliments on the work.

credit where credit is due. very polished "prototypes".

Quote
Could a mock up be done with off the shelf stuff.  Most of the stuff I use could be baught just about anywhere in town, however the silicon steel laminet is a different story.   I finally found a place to buy it but I had to spend over $1000.00 in material and shipping.  NOT an off the shelf product.

I really wish I could throw you a bone, in fact I would like to tell all.   However I have some investers that would probably shoot me if I did.  They have over the years invested alot with this project and like all investers they expect a return on there investment. One thing I can say for them is the fact they had faith in me and was providing me with money to work with only when I had a dream. As soon as the patents are issued, I will tell all.

Later,,,,,JackH



We'll be holding our breath Jack, Good luck.

Regards,
Gn0stik
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Liberty on May 23, 2006, 04:53:22 AM
I have come to the understanding through experience, that magnets do not behave the same as batteries.  They are very different.  A battery for the most part, stores power that will deplete, where a magnet continues to produce a force constantly, which can be converted into motion to do work with an appropriate device.  Therefore, less outside electrical power is needed in conjunction with a magnetic device that can extract work from the magnetic force of a magnet.  This is why you can obtain a motor (like Jack's magnet motor and my magnet motor) that extracts work from magnets using less outside power to perform this work (as compared to a comparable standard electric motor that would do the same amount of work using more power).  As long as you don't 'strain' the magnet beyond it's ability to retain it's pole alignment, the magnet will continue to operate and produce a force for a very long time.

Liberty
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: jake on May 23, 2006, 03:37:11 PM
Quote
I don't mean to be rude, but why would anyone want to have his invention "validated"  by someone who is not capable of LEGALLY doing so? 
I don't doubt your knowlege, or your professionalism, or the quality of your staff,
but, if I thought I had something  unique, I would guard it with my life and seek full patent  protection before letting ANYONE, especially a professional who knows what he's looking at see my secret, and then stealing it.

I'm not saying you are dishonest either, but would YOU  do that if you invented something?   NO way!  First, i consult my lawyer and get my patent [ending aplication submitted.  I wouldn't even proceed with that untill I have refined my device and worked out the bugs.

You answered your own question.  You have to "work out the bugs".  Working out the bugs would include getting some independent testing to validate what you are purporting.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Liberty on May 23, 2006, 05:35:52 PM
I have come to the understanding through experience, that magnets do not behave the same as batteries.  They are very different.  A battery for the most part, stores power that will deplete, where a magnet continues to produce a force constantly, which can be converted into motion to do work with an appropriate device.  Therefore, less outside electrical power is needed in conjunction with a magnetic device that can extract work from the magnetic force of a magnet. 


You should read some of Howard Johnson's  writings  dealing with the properties of magnets, and their "vortexes" they produce.  The textbook explanation of magnetic fields and properties is wrong.

http://www.cheniere.org/books/HoJo/index.html  This site has other stuff written by Howard Johnson as well, you just have to look for it.

Who is he?  He's the guy who build the first  self running magnet motor way back in the 60's. The blueprints for the motor are available for free as well.   BUT, Howard Johnson warns everyone, that you MUST understand magnets, and their properties. You can't just take any old magnets and expect success. He built that motor with ceramic magnets, which were very hard to match in those days.  The reason he says, people fail in their projects, is because they do not match their magnets properly, ensure they are of of equal strength,  the same type,  and the proper shape.  Shape of the magnets is vital to any magnet motor, or else it will degauss even if you do manage to get it to work.

Notice that the Argentinian guy says that as well, SHAPE matters!   That's why you will notice on his rotor magnet  that the trailing end (as well as the lead end) are cut and tappered, and his stator magnets are haped as well.  Why? because the south pole votex will react with the stator magnets,  and even if you get it to work, it will degauss them eventually.

I like our friend who so kindly let us view his work, have spent a good part of my lifetime tinkering with this concept as well,  and came to realize that shaping magnets is vital.  The only thing is, shaping magnets is also damn near impossible.
Now however, there are some better tools to make that job somewhat less tedious. for about $50.00 , you can buy a dremel tool, and diamond impregnated sanding/grinding drums, which  makes the impossible now merely near impossible.
The determined person can do it.  The impatient person will fail.




The shaping of magnets is not required in Mr. Flynn's design to my knowledge (not sure about Jack's magnetic valve, while I have understanding of how it operates, I won't discuss details on his device until it is protected by patent).  I use standard neo-magnets with no re-shaping of the magnets on my magnet motor.  Just standard off of the shelf neos, N35 or any other strength. 

I have tried to build a Howard Johnson style motor before too.  It is very unstable.  You would have to be very lucky in my opinion to ever get a Howard Johnson style motor to run (but it sure looks cool).  Too many variables to deal with in my opinion.   (To my knowledge, Howard has been unable to replicate his own motor).  There are colliding magnetic fields to deal with which is why many magnetic motors will not run or will not run well and may degauss the magnets because of stress to the magnets.  (The Howard Johnson style motor, needs the curved magnets to effectively be weaker going one way and stronger going the desired direction and shielding or magnet shaping is involved to try to get it to run).  Much too complicated in my opinion and very difficult to build.

For an effective magnet motor, you have to figure out how to not run into an opposing magnetic field (like Torbay has done) (using shielding or some other method) to really have good success on a magnet motor  that can be replicated and expanded easily (unlike the Howard Johnson style motor).   Therefore you must either; flip the magnetic flux path (such as a Flynn style device)  or devise a way to avoid an opposing magnetic field while remaining close enough to the magnetic field to still have torque, taking advantage of the force available in the desired direction (like the Perendev style magnet motor attempts to do with shielding and magnet positioning, but it would cost a small fortune in magnets to build one of these). 

By the way, thank you for the small generator suggestion, very kind of you.  I will look into it. :)

Liberty
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Light on May 23, 2006, 06:22:45 PM
Liberty. "I use standard neo-magnets with no re-shaping of the magnets on my magnet motor".
- And where can we see you motor? What's the basic principle? Thank you.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Liberty on May 23, 2006, 07:45:25 PM
You can read a little bit about it on this post:  http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,947.9.html (http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,947.9.html)

I do not have a patent on the device yet (and really must before revealing any specific operating methods).  It is quite different than any other device that is out there that I have seen to date; (being of my own creation and method).  I have funded it by myself so far, (ouch!) because I wanted to just build a device for myself originally.  (And still may if companies are hard to get along with).
 
I still plan to build a stronger unit (than the proto-type device in the picture) utilizing  improved electronic methods and other design enhancements.  It is a design that can be as expandable as I want to make it.

I understand that a company may not work with you unless you have a patent, so I will probably have to acquire a patent first to protect the idea, or with a company's help, then I may be able to speak more specifically and openly on it's operation.

I would be willing to show some very revealing movies of it in actual operation (part of my documentation) to a company representative that is interested in working with me and helping me develop it further for production and to market it for public use.  I would require the company to sign a non-disclosure agreement (protecting me and my idea while obtaining a patent, and preventing any similar variation of my device from being built) while viewing the operation of the device for evaluation purposes. 

Liberty   
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Light on May 23, 2006, 10:01:04 PM
Sounds very good, but at least you can say if it's self-running PMM or electro-magnetic device.
Good luck in you patent pending, hope to hear from you very soon...
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: sypherios on July 03, 2006, 07:49:24 PM
ya kno what, screw you! Hilden Brand. Go public you dilldong. Its people like you that have came to the OU horizon and nvr fly into it that make me want to puke. GO PUBLIC AT 120%! DO IT> I SWEAR IF YOU DONT DO IT DO NOT EVEN POST HERE ANYMORE.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: acp on July 03, 2006, 08:20:56 PM
ooooooooooooh I just love it when you get angry  :-*
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Landor on July 04, 2006, 05:48:12 AM
my experience so far with magnets to power a motor whether just using earth or electro or a combination is that it is very easy to power and spin a rotor that is either small or made from lightweight materials.

Take this to the next step and turn a rotor which weighs 30 kilo 's and see what happens. It is a lot different.

I now am acheiving this and developing nicely.
To step up to something like a real motor instead of the dinky toy ones I constantly see posted requires much thinking out side the box.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: scotty1 on July 04, 2006, 09:32:26 AM
Yes it does mate... ;)
I've changed my mind on the direction i'm going Landor...
Will go the way you said......I have looked into it now...and i noticed something very cool..... ;D   
Later mate
Scotty
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: gn0stik on July 04, 2006, 08:22:03 PM
Interesting that the concept is based on those boots. Which seem to be based on a concept identical to "FLYNNS" parallel path idea. Apparently flynn just robbed the idea from the keelynet article. John Radus's work for NASA. Also interesting to note is that Jack's first work was on the PMH, just like YOU scotty!, By the way, I have rotation on my kundel motor. I need better switching however, I'm thinking of going optical, as that would be the fastest and most accurate switching method. After that I think I'll throw in a Flynn/Radus/Hildenbrand Magnetic gate, instead of the horseshoe electromagnet I'm currently using.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Liberty on July 04, 2006, 08:29:30 PM
Interesting that the concept is based on those boots. Which seem to be based on a concept identical to "FLYNNS" parallel path idea. Apparently flynn just robbed the idea from the keelynet article. John Radus's work for NASA. Also interesting to note is that Jack's first work was on the PMH, just like YOU scotty!, By the way, I have rotation on my kundel motor. I need better switching however, I'm thinking of going optical, as that would be the fastest and most accurate switching method. After that I think I'll throw in a Flynn/Radus/Hildenbrand Magnetic gate, instead of the horseshoe electromagnet I'm currently using.

Do you have any optical drive circuits that you can post for others building motors?
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: lancaIV on July 04, 2006, 09:01:22 PM
Charles Flynn:Permanent Magnet Control Means
US5463263

Many other inventors cited,
for OU-searcher especially US3670189,Monroe

S
  dL
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Paul-R on July 04, 2006, 11:03:37 PM
Optical circuits? try a trawl around here:
http://www.discovercircuits.com/list3.htm
Paul.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Landor on July 05, 2006, 12:52:29 AM
Glad to hear it Scotty.
I have a lot of faith in your attitude it is refreshing and always informative.

Just had an idea of a total magnet drive will send you an email Muahahaah could be worth a look at. Do you have a two cylinder engine lying about?

I will go to the wreckers and see if I can pick one up to try this idea out, could be very interesting as if it works we could use it on a car engine as well.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: sypherios on July 05, 2006, 03:04:58 AM
I know you can post anytime you want but god man, more than half the people on this planet do not even know your technology exists. Someone needs to step up and go public. Who gives a rats ass about patents at this stage inm the game just as long as OU gets out we will all benefit.

 Sincerly Sypherios
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Landor on July 05, 2006, 03:18:17 AM
Who are you on about Sypherios?

You are not one of these people who sit back and critisize do nothing in the way of development but wish to cash in on all thats on offer.  :-\

My appologies to you if this is not the case.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: scotty1 on July 05, 2006, 08:34:34 AM
Some of you here have seen the Kundel motor....here is a clip of my newer model....only the rotor moves.....
http://http://leedskalnin.com/fingertipled.html.....
Coiln....I have an idea too......quite strange indeed......
It would use no magnets at all....but it would be a magnet motor...or rather a motor that pushed out magnets? It would not hold them...but throw them out...over and over.
Motion
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Landor on July 05, 2006, 09:17:10 AM
That is some thing Scotty. Most intriguing. Should have my cycle motor tommorrow so I can set up and try my idea and will send you a pic if it looks like working mate.

Throwing out poles is good all we need to do is catch them. Possibly a copper coil balloon maybe? The mind is racing.

Ok enough of work time to go home. cya later dude.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: gn0stik on July 05, 2006, 04:13:45 PM
Interesting that the concept is based on those boots. Which seem to be based on a concept identical to "FLYNNS" parallel path idea. Apparently flynn just robbed the idea from the keelynet article. John Radus's work for NASA. Also interesting to note is that Jack's first work was on the PMH, just like YOU scotty!, By the way, I have rotation on my kundel motor. I need better switching however, I'm thinking of going optical, as that would be the fastest and most accurate switching method. After that I think I'll throw in a Flynn/Radus/Hildenbrand Magnetic gate, instead of the horseshoe electromagnet I'm currently using.

Do you have any optical drive circuits that you can post for others building motors?

Hehe, nope, not yet. I would just be using optical sensors for the commutation anyway, nothing all that intricate. I'd probably be pulling the sensors out of an old ball mouse.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Liberty on July 05, 2006, 07:39:58 PM
Gn0stik,

You might find this site of use for your driver circuit.  They appear to make some H-switches (mosfet) that might come in handy.

Here is the web site:  http://www.newmicros.com/ (http://www.newmicros.com/)
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: c0mster on July 13, 2006, 04:39:40 AM
Nice work Jack. Now that is art, a beautiful site.
Camster
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Gregory on July 13, 2006, 03:30:48 PM
Hello Jack!

Good to hear from you! Your new artistic masterpiece looks nice.  :)
I am sure your newer motor with the 2 inch magnets is stepping over to the Kw output range, if it's going to work at 400 or 500% efficiency.

Good work on it!
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: hartiberlin on July 14, 2006, 02:06:54 AM
Hi Jack !
Congratulations on your nice work !
Looks very beautiful these motors.
Also niceto see real pictures of the users over here.
Did you already get your patent now ?

Looks like you switch off the permanent magnet via a parrallel
flux path circuit via the external coils ?

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Liberty on July 14, 2006, 03:09:32 AM
Hello Jack,

It sounds like the patent process is incredibly slow.  Do you have any tips or know of any way to speed up a patent application?  Are there things to avoid or do in the application of the patent etc?
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: mark australia on July 14, 2006, 06:40:54 AM
You truly are a craftsman Jack. I do hope all goes well for you.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Nali2001 on July 16, 2006, 10:43:27 PM
Pm motor   ;)
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: hartiberlin on July 17, 2006, 12:50:21 AM
@Nali2001
yes,this is probably the way Jack?s motor works..
Maybe still with magnets inside the rotor ?
But you can see, that if you switch on the coils and have the
magnet shortout flux
redirected into the rotor iron you get more flux ( as Jack says 400 %)
to attract the rotor iron !
Pretty neat motor !
As Jack only needs to pulse the coils he neads very low power input
and not his 8 Watts, what would be for the static case to redirect the flux..
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Light on July 17, 2006, 04:05:05 AM
I don't think so, hartiberlin
Look:
1. There's no chance to make it work with a "mechanical equivalent".
2. There's no 4X amplifying of magnetic force.
3. In this set up there's no necessity in the magnet, electromagnet do all job. It's just a magnet pulse motor, not "the Valve".
I believe something has to be turn to obtain the valve effect...
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Kirk on July 17, 2006, 10:50:09 PM
http://www.usajohnsons.com/cool_energy_stuff/experiments/parallel_path.html
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: hartiberlin on July 18, 2006, 05:55:18 AM
Hi Jack ,
many thanks for posting this info !
Did you now get your patent, so you can tell us this ?
Very good idea to do it this way with the local shortout iron cylinder !
Reminds me of the tricks Dave Squires made in the MFT.
So is your rotor then also just an iron core or does it also have magnets ?
Many thanks for your great research and craftsmanship !
Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: hartiberlin on July 18, 2006, 07:46:08 AM
Hi Jack,
why not just use only an iron wire coil
around the magnet as I have posted it over here:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,1119.msg8914.html#msg8914

2. Also did you try yet to build a transformer on your principle ?
If your motor is overunity , a solid state transformer should also be overunity
with this principle !
It should get you more power output than power input,
if you use a pulsed driver circuit.

Many thanks for publishing your principle over here.

Regards,Stefan.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Gregory on July 18, 2006, 08:10:00 AM
Yes, simple and clever, this is the way!
I also think, it can work in a solid state device.

Thank you Jack! It is a really great idea!
I wish you to build your most efficient motor next.

Regards,
Gregory
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Drak on July 18, 2006, 02:29:42 PM
  Jack,

  Excellent idea. Thank you for posting your valve. I'm glad you finally got your patents, alot quicker then I expected.

  Does neo's have to be used? Have you tried it with rectangle magnets?

  Wow, that really is a good idea. Many thanks. What is your next step? It would be nice if you could find a company that will build them for you. Or you could build and sell them your self. Well whatever your plans are, thank you again!


  P.S.  My invitation is still open, but I don't think proof is needed now.


 Drak
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: z_p_e on July 18, 2006, 03:02:56 PM
Nice thinking Jack.

I am wondering however, how it is possible that the same power is required no matter how strong the magnet is?

It seems that the stronger the magnet, the more energy is required to "buck" the magnet's field to force it around and through the armature, rather than the sleeve. If that's the case, then there would only be one combination of magnet strength and sleeve thickness/permeability that would match the 8 Watts of power energizing the coil.

Any deviation from this would mean either power is being wasted in the coil due to over-bucking the field, or you would not be diverting all the available flux from the magnet due to under-bucking it's field.

Therefore, to maximize the efficiency, the power used to energize the coil should be emperically or mathematically determined.

As I mentioned before, this is a variation of the Flynn et al method.

z_p_e
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Liberty on July 18, 2006, 04:07:34 PM
Hello All,

Well here it is  The Hilden-Brand electro magnetic valve.

Later,,,,JackH


Jack you surprised everyone I think by showing it now before your patent is approved (or has it been approved?).  Simple design and effective.  Nicely done.  Congratulations! :o

Liberty
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Liberty on July 18, 2006, 04:23:53 PM
I wonder if 'Jake' is still following the board to see a design that uses magnets? 
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: MT on July 18, 2006, 09:16:19 PM
Hello JackH,

many thanks for posting this now. It is really an admirable and simple idea. Congratulation.

Out of curiosity I just put four neos (12mm with hole) in suitable washers to see whether they can be shorted. Well, seems neos with hole wont work. Mine cylinder still stick to the refrigerator (probably wants to cool down in current sweat ;). The magnet should be definitely without a hole as is on the picture.

all the best,
MT
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Elvis Oswald on July 18, 2006, 11:20:54 PM
Kudos for posting that Jack. :)
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: hartiberlin on July 18, 2006, 11:25:37 PM
Hi Jack,
many thanks for all the additional infos.
You have made really a great invention.
I hope that your patent will also bring you some benefit from
it and that your motor is soon produced by a company on a bigger scale.

Many thanks !
Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Liberty on July 19, 2006, 01:36:44 AM
Hello MT,

You need more than just washers around the magnets to make them none magnetic.  There needs to be also endcaps, like the two field pices on each end of the magnets.

Hello z_p_e,

The strenght of the magnets has alot to do with how much power is needed to equial them.  I have been using N48, it takes 8 watts of power no mater how big the magnet is.   In other words, a one inch magnet takes 8 watts, also a three inch magnet takes only 8 watts if it is an N48. This is one of the great things about this valve.  No mater how big the magnet is it still only takes 8 watts of power to turn it on.  etc, a very large machine could be controled with very little power.

Hello Greg & Gregory,

Yes I have tryed to build a solid state generator, and yes it did work, and yes it is also covered in the patent.

Hello hartiberlin,

Well I guess you could just use Iron wire.  But I chose to use the Iron cylinder because it will give I think better results, plus the fact you can build the coil out of copper wire, much less resistence to electric flow and also it can be very esaly wound for any voltage you want.  And yes the rotor also has magnets in it.   I tryed it without magnets, worked good however with magnets in the rotor you end up with large amounts of torque.

Hello Drak,

Drak I have not tryed this idea with any other magnets than neo's.  I would think it would work with any kind of magnets.






Jack, are you going to produce your motors yourself, or have you found a place to do that for you?  Also, do you plan to run your own company, or join up with another? 

 

Liberty
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: jake on July 19, 2006, 01:55:08 AM
Quote
I wonder if 'Jake' is still following the board to see a design that uses magnets?

Lib,

I'm listening, but not really posting any more.

Jake
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Liberty on July 19, 2006, 02:00:41 AM
Well good Jake,

I'm glad you are still out there.  Good to hear from you again.

Liberty
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Liberty on July 19, 2006, 04:04:31 AM
Hello Liberty,

Well I do not know just how I am going about things at this time.  I really would like to start a small company and manufacture these things myself, but the money just is not there.    I am still hoping that I can build a self running motor/generator out of this thing, but I do believe that I will need to buy some larger machine shop equipment to do that.   It seems to be that the larger the magnet you use the more efficiency you get out of the valve, but my machine shop will only allow me to work with no larger than two inch magnets, even with the two inch magnets, it has been very hard and time consuming to build a motor.

I only hope that I can hold my investers off for as long as it takes for me to build a self running motor/generator.  If not it will probably be sold to the highest bidder and may be put on the shelf.  And NO,  I do not want that to happin.  That is why I realeased it here.

Later,,,,,JackH


Perhaps you could just license the patent to other companies, forgoing the cost of construction yourself (while maintaining control of the patent).  However, you may have to go to those companies and present your motor and demo it for them with the stats as you have done here.  But you have a very nice product and a very good idea to go with it.  You will do well.  Perhaps some of your investors will push the motor to these companies for you, to help solidify their investment returns by licensing the patent to these companies. 

I wish you well and admire your work.  It's a work of art.

Keep in touch and let us know how it is going and how your generator combo comes out.

Liberty
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: mark australia on July 19, 2006, 03:05:57 PM
Well done Jack, I wish you well and once again well done.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: lwh on July 19, 2006, 09:13:24 PM
JackH,

You're a bloody legend mate. 

To see you offer up the info like that...well...it was a moment of greatness on your part. 

Thanks for that, and good luck with it all.

Les.   

   
Title: Hilden-Brand Electromagnet Motor Feature Page Posted
Post by: sterlinga on July 20, 2006, 02:26:16 AM
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Director:Hilden-Brand_Electromagnet_Motor

Jack Hilden-Brand recently measured around 2x over-unity in his electromagnetic motor design, which closely resembles the Joseph Flynn parallel path concept.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: hartiberlin on July 22, 2006, 04:06:51 AM
A friend emailed me the following statements:

"It appears that Joe Flynn's Parallel Path patent covers what
Hilden-Brand has done.
So if Hilden-Brand tries to patent it he will run into Flynn's patent.

Also, an FYI, Joe Flynn's Parallel Path motor is being used and built by
Boeing and also by Seagate for hard disk drive motors.

It's real.  I have done a ton of FEMM simulations on different variations
of this approach.  I can verify that the expected efficiency is around 200%
up to about 250% without friction and windage or other losses taken into
account.   If you consider that a typical variable reluctance or switched
reluctance motor is around 90% efficient the 2x improvement would result
in an efficiency of about 180% taking a standard SRM as a reference.

I just wanted you to know that it is a real phenomenon.  The first case of
this being seen is at this Japanese site (circa 1995, [see "Profile" page).
{Motor construction 2002}

http://www.genesis-corp.co.jp/e/e401.html

I independently verified the curve you see in Figure 5 with FEMM
simulation runs
before I saw this site.

So Hilden-Brand has invented the same thing as what this site shows, but
10 years
later.  His form is a bit different, but essentially the same in
principle.  It's good to
see another confirmation of the approach.  Hilden-Brand's is pretty
creative actually.
I hadn't thought of using the magnet and coil in the same volume.  However,
he would have a micro gap between the coil core and the rest of the magnetic
circuit.  That can result in a bit of flux leakage to the rotor that
might not be
desireable."

So far the comment from a friend who is a very schooled specialist in FEMM
simulations.
Anyway, it is nice to see some confirmations this way !
Jack has really brought out something very useful !
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: z_p_e on July 22, 2006, 06:11:38 AM
I am sure Jack will get his patent, for 2 reasons:

1) Jack's design is sufficiently different from Flynn's:
a) Jack uses only one magnet, Flynn uses two
b) Jack uses one coil that surrounds the magnet, Flynn's uses 2 coils, and they don't surround the magnet

The end results, if both were put into black boxes, would be very similar. As far as the overall efficiency of each, I still need to go do some simulations with either FEMM or Ansoft Maxwell SV. It will be interesting to see if one comes out ahead, or if they are dead even.

2) Patents do little or nothing in protecting intellectual property rights of the owner, and patents that are so similar to each other are being granted every day. IMO, patents are a waste of time, effort, money, stress and lawsuits.

All the same, I wish you luck Jack.

z_p_e
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Liberty on July 22, 2006, 02:58:18 PM
I am sure Jack will get his patent, for 2 reasons:

1) Jack's design is sufficiently different from Flynn's:
a) Jack uses only one magnet, Flynn uses two
b) Jack uses one coil that surrounds the magnet, Flynn's uses 2 coils, and they don't surround the magnet

The end results, if both were put into black boxes, would be very similar. As far as the overall efficiency of each, I still need to go do some simulations with either FEMM or Ansoft Maxwell SV. It will be interesting to see if one comes out ahead, or if they are dead even.

2) Patents do little or nothing in protecting intellectual property rights of the owner, and patents that are so similar to each other are being granted every day. IMO, patents are a waste of time, effort, money, stress and lawsuits.

All the same, I wish you luck Jack.

z_p_e

Well, what you left, begs to have the question asked:  How do you protect Intellectual Property Rights then?  With lawsuits?
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Drak on July 22, 2006, 05:03:07 PM
Quote
a) Jack uses only one magnet, Flynn uses two
b) Jack uses one coil that surrounds the magnet, Flynn's uses 2 coils, and they don't surround the magnet

  Also, it seems to me by adding more power input to a Flynn built motor will not increase the output. Do the same with a motor built by Jacks design and your output should increase. The extra input will not be wasted as it would with a Flynn device.

 Speed control for Flynn: Timing (Oscillation)
 Speed control for Jack: Timing and/or Extra power

  I also think it would be easier to build a motor using Jacks design rather then Flynns.

  Just my thoughts.

 Drak
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Light on July 22, 2006, 07:33:18 PM
I've made simple Jack's valve just to see how does it work - magnet 3/4x3/4, bushing coil 11/5x3/4, blocks from mild soft steel.

With no power applied the side block jumps from distance of 1/8, with power applied - from 5/8. It means flux increased about 4-times (square root of distance). And when energised it's impossible to pull it apart - attraction so strong.

But, when power is off the side block still under big attraction of left magnetisation. Besides, coil with a core without the magnet do almost the same job, plus very little residual magnetisation.
Needa lots of practice to get a "golden middle"...

Respect, Jack, you found it. But how you managed to do it mechanically only?...
 
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: z_p_e on July 22, 2006, 07:53:34 PM
This could be a whole new topic but...

It doesn't even get to the lawsuit stage. IPR can not be protected, and in fact if you think about it, the existence of a patent "system" even makes it easier for one's ideas to be "stolen". Someone will always "improve" on your idea, or change it sufficiently to merit the issuance of a patent that effectively "supersedes" yours. It is futile to try and protect your intellectual property. Lawsuits just get ugly, and there are no guarantees, either way.

A better concept in my opinion, is once you have implemented your idea into a solid, repeatable working prototype, there are two immediate approaches as to how one can proceed:

1) Establish an incorporation, and begin developing the item as a marketable product. Yes this takes money, but so does starting almost any business. You may also try to find some investors that a) do not want control for your idea, and b) that do not require you to have a patent before they will fund you. Once you have established a modest revenue from your business, you then have the option of widely disclosing the concept or idea to the public domain, thereby quashing the possibility of it being patented by anyone else. You still get credit for the idea/concept/design, and at the same time, you have a huge head start on anyone that may choose to be competition. An analogy might be similar to Apple, with the iPod. There are others that do similar things, but they are NOT an iPod. It is a win/win situation, you benefit from your effort, and at the same time, you have given the idea to mankind for it and the earth to benefit.

2) Fully disclose your idea to the Free Energy community. It certainly is large enough all over the world now that your name will go down in history as the originator, and there would most likely be benefits that would come along the way. Of course this approach also negates the possbility of the idea being patented by anyone else (a good thing), as it would now be in the public domain.

Perhaps with approach 1) or 2), we could finally move on from being so dependant on oil, and get on with producing clean free energy. Too many FE inventions have been lost, buried, bought off, suppressed, ridiculed, all in the name of capitalism, and the idea of patents and secrecy, certainly seem to play a role in propagating this on-going phenomenum.

You may choose to never disclose your idea to anyone, and this is the only effective way to protect your intellectual property. However, you will not benefit much from this approach, and certainly there will be no benefit to anyone else either.

z_p_e
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Elvis Oswald on July 22, 2006, 08:37:36 PM
What do you think would happen if you used this valve as a transformer? 
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: lanca II on July 23, 2006, 02:07:35 AM
Hello Jack Hildenbrand,
congratulation to your -pardon me,exspected-invention !
It is a part of the evolution to combinate electrons and magnetism !

To Elvis Oswald:
Yes,I think to introduce the JackH concept into "TRANSFORMER" like
Mr.Keiichiro`s invention JP2003009558.

Sincerely
            de Lanca
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Light on July 23, 2006, 08:05:40 AM
It's not a problem yet, Jack, I'm just trying to get into picture...
What's the proper name of this steel (sylicon(?) Iron)? It has to be classified somehow, right; alloy or something...
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: energyman8 on July 23, 2006, 08:09:50 AM
Hello Jack H. First of all I would like to say I have never seen a more beautifuly crafted machine than yours.  I have been doing relentless homework on the subject of rare earth metals and somehow I found your website. Anyway I have a few questions: are you aware of the REMAT engine and specifically the coils they use? The company is GMCC. They were a public company but are currently a private entity. Your motor looks a lot like what they have. Anyway congratulations on your invention and thank you for continuing the effort to help future generations. People like you are what keeps this great country alive and gives hopes to a better future for everyone. Godbless.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: sarmasio on July 23, 2006, 09:17:24 AM
Hi,


I vas looking for some shielding materials and have found this:
http://www.amuneal.com/pages/magshield-material.php

"the highest permeability alloys such as Amumetal have the lowest saturation values"


Thanks,

Adalbert.

Ps: I believe in free energy.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: energyman8 on July 23, 2006, 09:49:01 AM
Hello Jack, here is the link you were asking for. They asked for a revoke from the SEC in March and they are currently still working on plans to justify the claims they made. I was an investor with them and it makes me happy to know I am not crazy in thinking that motors like these are possible. If you think this is a negative message board you should check out the Raging Bull.com message board for GMCC. Someone like you could have saved us a lot of trouble with the sceptics over there.  Did you study Tesla to further your research? Thanks again Jack and let me know what you think of the REMAT and the coil technology. My ultimate dream is to be driving a magnet motor car into my solar powered house......... that dream thanks to great minds like yours make that possible and show never give up in your goals.  ;D                            If you go to Peswiki (dot) com and type in to Search it will bring you to thier main page
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: energyman8 on July 23, 2006, 09:53:11 AM
p.s... I believe in free energy too..... and zero point energy..... but I think they are the same thing.


Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: mark australia on July 23, 2006, 12:20:12 PM
Dear Energy man, I studied the GMCC project closely and looked at their figures. At that stage they never achieved overunity, they just predicted they would. Unfortunately they informed the market and their shares went through the roof based on something they had not achieved. I predicted they would get into a little trouble with the authorities and distanced myself from the project.

Jack appears to have a great working, well crafted motor but it still has to be independently tested. I am sure when it does it will come through with flying colors.

I would be quite happy to look at there figures again regards the Remat device. They made a lot of promises and I and I think it was Butch were to go and test there device and measure overunity. This never happened and the invite was withdrawn

To date no one has produced an independently verified OU device..which is sad.
I know of quite a few exciting projects at the moment and hope they come through.
However we can all hope. keep up the good work Jack.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Liberty on July 23, 2006, 04:41:26 PM
Dear Energy man, I studied the GMCC project closely and looked at their figures. At that stage they never achieved overunity, they just predicted they would. Unfortunately they informed the market and their shares went through the roof based on something they had not achieved. I predicted they would get into a little trouble with the authorities and distanced myself from the project.

Jack appears to have a great working, well crafted motor but it still has to be independently tested. I am sure when it does it will come through with flying colors.

I would be quite happy to look at there figures again regards the Remat device. They made a lot of promises and I and I think it was Butch were to go and test there device and measure overunity. This never happened and the invite was withdrawn

To date no one has produced an independently verified OU device..which is sad.
I know of quite a few exciting projects at the moment and hope they come through.
However we can all hope. keep up the good work Jack.

Mark Australia,

Do you know of a good place or who could do an independent verification of a device?

Liberty
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: mark australia on July 24, 2006, 01:23:58 AM
Hi Liberty,
I am in the process of writing you a lengthy email about the history of many devices. I should send it some time today.
The question you ask has many answers.
With a device like this, all that is needed to be tested in the first instance is power in and power out as Jack is done.
The next step in Jacks case would be to get a certified engineer or lab to validate his results. It would not be hard in this instance. Finally the longevity test needs to be done..allowing the device to run under a small load for as long as it can in a controlled environment with everything being monitored.
With other devices, the next step in testing is(In the case of magnetic devices) how long the magnets last under load.
The next question is who should test it. That is dependent where someone lives and at what stage of development they are at. For instance given your electronics background you would be a good person for instance to test such a device. However the next step after is going to a lab that has some form of industry accreditation.

Then comes the next crunch...designing the test. (I love doing that bit)

I am rambling here but I think it is hard to give you a diffinitive answer as each device is different.
A friend of mine has asked me to form a group to do such testing and validations. He has devised a test that can be applied to many OU claims. He has been asked to perform his test on a replication of a well known OU device and with any luck I will be there as an observer and filming it. When this happens I will let you know. his aim is to have a universally accepted test for all devices that is accepted by the scientific community.

Where most devices fall down on credability (I could list at least 50 ) Is they have never allowed independent testing .
I know you follow Steven Marlks or Mark Stevens work , but as far as I am aware, he has never allowed fully independent testing. He has for instance done lots of demonstartions, videos etc,  but never allowed anyone to test it even in his presence. (by that I mean conducting a test with controlled parameters)
The list goes on, Torbay Motor, Ccyclone, Pendrev, Lutec and many other devices that are on the fringe such as Joe cells. They have never had indepent validation in a controlled enviroment.

I take my hat of to Paul Sprain who is very methodical about his testing and fine example to follow.

The two people I would contact in the first instance if I was in the US would be Stirling Allen or in Europe the moderator of this site who would know who to contact. In Australia I am fortunate to have access to several facilities at universities. The sad thing is I havnt had to call upon their services yet.
I have an open offer to go anywhere in the world at my own expense and take part in a validation and document it.
Sorry I cant be more definative, but if I had a device that I was allowed to test then I could be more specific.
Mark

Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Light on July 24, 2006, 02:12:05 AM
If I would have such kind of device, I would not give it to anyone to test it neither. If you want to test it - buy it and do whatever you want to do...
I would make it for myself needs and maybe for some friends. It's only way do not allow it to hide in some instances and "big brothers".
Besides, the only right testing tools is Time...
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: JRHall on July 24, 2006, 04:35:49 AM
I think a thread for a standard test plan would be good. 

So far we've talked about functionally validating a technology at nominal conditions.  i.e. 25C ambient temp.  That will validate the technology is viable but will not show how it works under real world conditions.  Most of this technology will be run under extended environmental conditions.  So once intial testing is completed at nominal then testing over temperature, humidy, vibration and thermal shock will help determine if there are anamolies.  Highly Excelerated Life Testing or Halt does a very good job of determining operating limites and weak points in a design. 

I've seen a lot of designs that work great at 25C but fail to function at 0C or 45C.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: mark australia on July 24, 2006, 05:21:20 AM
Liberty, I am having trouble sending you emails..they all bounced to day.
Please email me with an alternative address at mark.dansie@advatel.biz
thanks
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Liberty on July 24, 2006, 06:32:28 AM
Liberty, I am having trouble sending you emails..they all bounced to day.
Please email me with an alternative address at mark.dansie@advatel.biz
thanks

Sorry about that, the ISP that I use had a server crash of some sort.  I think that they nearly have it put back together now.  I noticed the web site is back up.  It may work again if you want to try it again.  I will email you with an alternate email just in case.

Liberty
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor - Wire gauge
Post by: z_p_e on July 24, 2006, 02:43:49 PM
Hi Jack.

Would you be able to disclose the gauge of wire you are using with your N48 magnets? Also, if you go up or down in magnet size, does the wire gauge remain the same?

I would guess that as the magnet size goes up, so does the wire guage (bigger wire). This would allow you to increase the number of turns and/or the wire length, without increasing the final coil resistance.

z_p_e
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: jake on July 24, 2006, 04:34:37 PM
The "reactance" of the coil could be much more of an issue than the resistance, especially when you are applying a pulsed waveform to the coil.  "Reactance" could be described as the AC resistance of the coil, and it changes (increases) with the applied frequency.

If you want to drive the coil at a high frequency, I would determine the ampere-turns required by building the coil with a reasonable wire size (Jack noted that he is driving at .08a, 100v, I think - any reasonable sized wire will handle that).  Test the coil and adjust the current until you get the desired result under static conditions.  Measure the current.  Multiply the measured current in amps times the number of turns on the coil.  This gives you the ampere-turns necessary to get the proper magnetic flux. (Any number of turns with the correct current can be used to create that amount of flux)  At this point you know the magnetic requirement of the coil.  Now you must decide what frequency you are going to drive the coil at, and bulid a coil optimized for that frequency, which involves a number of calculations to tune the coil to the desired frequency.

The problem with not tuning the coil to the operating frequency is you can't get the current moving in the coil rapidly enough.  Performance will suffer because by the time you produce the flux the rotor may have passed you by.

The problem with driving coils with square waves (pulses) is that the harmonic frequencies in square waves are very high, even if the fundamental frequency is low.  Any coil has a relatively high resistance to square waves, which tends to knock the corners off the waveform.  You may have to severly overdrive the coil to get the desired current throuth it when pulsing it, especially with short duration pulses.

My gut feeling is that you might be better with larger wire, less turns, more current, less voltage.  Your copper losses might be a little higher, but you will be able to drive at higher frequencies because of the decreased reactance of the coil.  Jack is using 8w coils at 100v.  You can get the same result with 50v, 25v, etc, by increasing the current and decreasing the turns.  I think a pulse (square) waveform will work better with fewer turns on the coil.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: jake on July 24, 2006, 05:23:37 PM
http://www.flynnresearch.net/technology/PPMT%20technology%20white%20paper.pdf

I think the motor design discussed in this paper is the best I have seen so far.

The aspect of the Hilden-Brand "valve" that I don't like is the gap required to make it function.  I'm not sure how big the gap is, but any gap at that location is a bad thing.  If that gap is any larger than a normal stator-rotor gap it is a bad thing.

Flynn's motor does not require a gap (other than normal rotor-stator gap) to function, which I think is a big advantage.  Also, when the Hiledn-Brand valve is "off", all of the PM Flux is doing nothing - it is "short circuited" by design.  In the Flynn design the magnets are being utilized even when the coils are off.  His design makes use of the PM flux at all times, even with the coils off.  The design moves the PM flux from one useful place to another, utilizing all of the PM flux all of the time.  The Hilden-Brand design wastes all of the PM flux part of the time by shunting it through a non-working path when the coil is off.

Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Nali2001 on July 24, 2006, 10:29:28 PM
Is it just me or did anyone else notice that the Jack's picture describing the Hilden-Brand valve is now removed..?
I thought it was on page 14 or so some day's ago.  ???
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: jake on July 25, 2006, 12:10:18 AM
Quote
The stator-rotor gap is around 002 on my motors.

If you can get it that close without having the magnets attracting, it sounds like that isn't an issue.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: jake on July 25, 2006, 12:14:56 AM
Quote
Is it just me or did anyone else notice that the Jack's picture describing the Hilden-Brand valve is now removed..?

You can see it here:

http://www.peswiki.com/index.php/Director:Hilden-Brand_Electromagnet_Motor

Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: MeggerMan on July 26, 2006, 10:08:18 AM
Has nobody figured how this idea can be turned into a motor yet?

This is just one idea I have:
For the flux to switch you need a path for it to flow through.
The smaller the cross section, the higher the flux.
So what you have is instead of a rectangular core across the two main feed/return limbs, you cut a semi circle out of it (the rectangle slab) so the flux at the mid point will be at its maximum for that material.
So this way the circuit is completed, the rotor arm then is attracted to the centre of the semi circle, as it lines up to the centre of the core you need to remove the power from your coil.
The rotor itself will reduce the flux attraction as it approaches the centre point as its own core steel becomes part of the path.

The ideal way would be to get the flux to go through the whole rotor to another valve to complete a circuit.
Anybody done a Femm 4 magnetic simulation on this yet?
I can post the sample I have done if that is possible on this BB.

Ohh, I may be able to get a load of laminated silicon steel offcuts(scrap used in large transformer production).


Regards

Rob
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: gyulasun on July 26, 2006, 10:35:46 AM
Hi Rob,

I tried to imagine what you have suggested and I failed, sorry for this.

Could you (or someone else) make a simple hand drawing (even in Windows Paint) of how you mean the semi circle cutout of the rectangular slab?

It is ok that "the smaller the cross section, the higher the flux" but the limit for this is saturation, isn't it?

Thanks

Gyula
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: jake on July 26, 2006, 01:51:22 PM
Quote
Has nobody figured how this idea can be turned into a motor yet?


There are pictures of some motors Jack has constructed earlier in this thread - about page 12 or so.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: MeggerMan on July 26, 2006, 02:58:52 PM
Something like this:
(http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m25/kingrs/Femm4Hilden-BrandMagnetMotor.jpg)
(http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m25/kingrs/Femm4Hilden-BrandMagnetMotorart.jpg)
Uses the following:
Total current = 0.008 Amps
Voltage Drop = 0.0557591 Volts
Flux Linkage = 0.0147367 Webers
Flux/Current = 1.84209 Henries
Voltage/Current = 6.96989 Ohms
Power = 0.000446073 Watts

Max flux is 1.2 Tesla

Regards

Rob
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: gyulasun on July 26, 2006, 04:22:59 PM
Hi Rob,

Thanks for the simulation and the picture, now I understand how you meant.

And now I also agree with your notice in your first message:

"The ideal way would be to get the flux to go through the whole rotor to another valve to complete a circuit."

Because that would seem to be the most efficient way of making use of all the flux coming from the permanent and the electromagnet.

Gyula
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: MeggerMan on July 26, 2006, 05:18:47 PM
I did some more tests and I think I will scrap that as an idea, although there is loads of dense flux through the narrowed section, it is of not of any mechanical use outside of the core. You cannot get it to attract anything.
Looks good but is serves no useful purpose.

What is needed is something that looks like a south or north pole that is able to attract or repel a magnetic rotor or attract a steel rotor.

I am looking at another method at the moment, using 2 valves, 2 bars and an extra neo magnet between the 2 new bars, I will post an image later on.
The two valves will control the flux direction of the new neo magnet, in the two large bars.
Then using 3 x less powerful cermic 5 magnets for the rotor.
So 2 field poles and 3 arms on the rotor.
Its all theory, I need to get some laminates to try it out.

Regards

Rob
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: hartiberlin on July 27, 2006, 04:57:27 AM
Hi Rob,
you have to scrap the last "c" shaped core piece form your stator !
Otherwise you just shortout the flux with which you attract the rotor !
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: MeggerMan on July 27, 2006, 09:15:25 AM
Hi Stefan,
Yes, I realised this after a bit of thinking.
I have another idea to interleave the pole faces, with enough gap to prevent the flux bridging it without the rotor in proximity.
This is to enable the rotor to make the circuit for a greater rotation but this cannot be simulated in 2D it needs a 3D model.

Or I could just bring the pole faces very close together, it should end up that the force will be active for half the width of the rotor face minus the pole gap, it will drag after the centre point and the coil needs to be turned off slightly before centre point.

I will do some more Femm simulations and post the results.  In Femm it is possible to work out the force exerted on an object but I have not yet figured this out yet.

Regards

Rob
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: hartiberlin on July 27, 2006, 10:17:39 AM
Hi Rob, the good part ofthe Hilden-Brandt motor is,
that it only needs very short pulses, when the rotor
is in the proximity of the stators to be attracted and
the rest of the time the coils can be off and the magnet
flux is shortouted via the cylinder ironcore around the magnet.
So it is a very efficient design to just use very low input power
and attract strongly a rotor, when the coils are energized.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: MeggerMan on July 27, 2006, 11:34:12 AM
Hi Stefan,
I also suspect that the initial current needs to be quite high and can tail off as the rotor reaches the centre point, with the pulse going off there will be a back emf as the field re-routes through the core steel surrounding the magnet. I'm not sure if this can be salvaged.

The power required for the switch is milliamps (about 10mA), provided the rotor is very very close to the stator. Larger gap = larger current.
Rather than use a cylinder magnet, I would be tempted to go for a square cross section magnet for the simple reason that it is easier to cut the laminations.

The laminations need to be step lapped for max flux, so I suppose you could build the feedback core from strips that a lapped into the main limbs.
Its like making a tight fitting jigsaw and a real hard task in itself.

Regards

Rob
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: jake on July 27, 2006, 01:23:41 PM
Quote
Hi Rob, the good part ofthe Hilden-Brandt motor is,
that it only needs very short pulses, when the rotor
is in the proximity of the stators to be attracted and
the rest of the time the coils can be off and the magnet
flux is shortouted via the cylinder ironcore around the magnet.
So it is a very efficient design to just use very low input power
and attract strongly a rotor, when the coils are energized.

I respectfully disagree with this analysis.

You are not utilizing the flux at all most of the time.  You are short circuiting the flux to a completely useless path most of the time.  The magnets might as well not be there when the power is off.

Look at the design in the Flynn paper.  It has all of the advantages of the Hildenbrand "valve", and it utilizes the permanent magnet flux all of the time.

I believe a better arrangement would have the coil releasing the magnet momentarily, so that the pm flux would be "working" most of the time, not short circuited where it can do no useful work in the motor.

Note that the Flynn motor "locks" with the power off - full torque with no power applied - the magnets are shorted through the rotor, holding it at all times until power is applied momentarily to the coils to advance the rotor.  I believe this design makes much better use of the permanent magnets.  You get torque when the power is off, and torque when the power is on - using the pm flux 100% of the time, not just when the power is on.

The Flynn motor does better than just turning the flux on and off.  It leaves the flux on 100% of the time, and directs the flux to where it is needed in the circuit to apply force where it is needed to make the motor rotate.  This gives complete utilization of the available flux at all times.  What could be better?  Certainly shorting out the flux to a non-working path can't be better than using the flux at all times in a working path.

Please don't take this as an attack on the valve.  It is a very creative and noteworthy design.  I just think it should be re-arranged in a way that uses part of the rotor as the shorting path, such as Flynn does.  There has to be a better way to arrange the circuit such that the flux is being used when it is in the off position.  Another factor is that the valve apparently allows the use of permanent magnets in the rotor.  I don't know that any Flynn designs can do this.  This factor may be a great advantage to the valve that is not obvious.

I believe that the best motors will be ones that are locked with no power, and rotate by momentarily releasing certain magnets - similar to what Flynn is doing.  This it just a "gut feeling" - no proof to offer.

Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: z_p_e on July 27, 2006, 02:32:47 PM
Thr Flynn design utilizes the flux 100% of the time, yes, but he also must pay for that. The Flynn design must switch the flux twice, meaning that two power pulses are used, one for each direction. The Hildenbrand concept pays only once.

So, on a per armature basis, both systems require roughly the same amount of power. If Jack set up a second unit opposite the first, and switched it appropriately, he would have something similar to the Flynn design...i.e. 2 coils, 2 magnets, 2 armatures.

Again, once I complete my simulations, I will hopefully have more definitive data to offer.

z_p_e
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: jake on July 27, 2006, 03:41:47 PM
Quote
So, on a per armature basis, both systems require roughly the same amount of power.

But which one does more with that power?  That is the issue.  I don't know, but I'm guessing that shorting the magnet through a non-working path severly decreases the output torque as compared to directing that flux through the rotor in a torque producing path.

The goal of any pm motor must be to actually USE the pm flux.  When the flux is shorted through the sleeve around the magnets, it is doing nothing.  This is a waste of flux for whatever duty cycle the coil is off.  Period.  In the flynn design, when the coil relaxes the flux transitions to a position where it is acting on the rotor.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: MeggerMan on July 27, 2006, 05:00:06 PM
Hi Jake,
I hear what you are saying but you may have a few things wrong/misunderstanding as I see it:

1. The power is only ON during the time the rotor first starts to make the path at the stator poles until the mid point is reached, this is a small duration/angle of rotation.
2. You apply just enough current to route ALL of the flux through the stator poles/rotor arm.
3. Both use the flux from the pm, just that Jack has "adopted" (from Nasa's boots) a tighter method (you can using a neo 40 pm, with same current I was driving cermic 8 pm of the same size).

Use the Femm software (free) to show me your idea, it only takes a couple of hours to get to grips with:
http://femm.foster-miller.net (http://femm.foster-miller.net)

I will setup a side by side simulation and show the results of each.

Regards

Rob
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Liberty on July 27, 2006, 05:32:31 PM
I can see both sides of the discussion here.  Jake's desire is to make the most efficient use of flux and motor, but at the cost of possibly more power consumption.

 ZPE is concerned about excess power consumption, while taking the view that magnet flux costs little or nothing to produce, so have the sacrifice there. 

So apparently, the only way to have the best of both worlds is to make a motor that uses magnet to magnet construction (for top efficiency).  This way permanent magnet flux is not wasted, and power for a coil is not consumed for switching flux (which takes considerable power to switch flux or equal the power of a magnet with an electromagnet, and the magnetic balance is delicate). 

You must primarily take power consumption into account when working to find a device that is capable of ultra low power consumption so that electrical free excess energy may be possible in the end.  This would make the most electrically efficient and flux efficient motor; a pure magnet to magnet motor.  The ultimate device to conserve power consumption and for over all motor efficiency.

But can it be done???  Yes. But as in everything, there are certain sacrifices and tradeoffs just like the above discussion.  You can't have the best of all worlds.  Each flavor of motor has it's advantages and disadvantages.  An all electric motor may be more powerful and of smaller size, but not the best on power consumption.

 For instance, in a Yagi antenna design, you can adjust for the best beam width and side rejection, or the best gain, or maximize in between for both, sacrificing some of both gain and beam concentration, for a balance.  You just have to decide what is the most important goal and make it for that purpose.  Power efficiency, or motor efficiency?  Cost and machining, or simplicity and cost effectivness?  Speed or strength, etc.  Large size, or small size?  Matching the motor's capability to the task is important to come out the best for what you want to do.

There will always be some give and take to every design, along with design constraints for the type of device.  That is why some motor's are better at some tasks and others are better suited for another application.  I would think that a magnet to magnet motor would be the best suited for excess power generation capability, because it has the possiblity of using the least amount of power to run, while not being best suited for say, speed or running a truck.  While other motors (magnet or electric) would be best suited for speed, strength and size efficiency to power a vehicle, or a hand power saw, or a disk drive and so on...  Match the job to do with the motor that has the strengths to fit that task the best.  They all have their place.




Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: z_p_e on July 27, 2006, 06:30:06 PM
In order to keep things straight, we need to take a moment and make sure we are all talking about and comparing apples to apples.

I am talking about the fundamental principal...the back to basics method of pulling in an armature through a flux conducting path such as shown in Jacks diagram. To compare this apple with Flynn's apple, one must go back to the web page where Flynn compares the parallel path method, with Bearden's method.

Using Flynn's diagram and Jack's diagram, we can put both units in their own black box, with the excption of the two armatures for each. Now, with only the coil wires leading into each respective black box, we can drive each unit appropriately, and compare the power requirements. Of course it goes without saying that the same strength magnets (2 each) are used in both.

z_p_e
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: jake on July 27, 2006, 08:03:02 PM
I'm not sure which Flynn site you are referring to.

I was not impressed at all with the flynn "replication" device with the two magnets between the 2 bars, with armatures at each end.  (For more information, look at my posts in that thread.)

I am, however, very impressed with the Flynn whitepaper showing a motor using the "Flynn effect" or whatever you want to call it.  The replication device suffers from a number of problems, especially when trying to apply it to a motor.  The motor implementation as shown in the white paper very elegantly works out the problems, in my opinion.

There is no reason to compare the 'valve' with flynn's replication device.  The replication device is not how Flynn uses his 'idea' in his motor design.  Compare motors to motors, not valve to replication device.

For that matter, I don't know how Jack's motor is arranged, and it may not resemble his diagram at all, and it may work twice as good as Flynn's.  Flynn is very near to the production stage on some of his motors, and Jack is near to independently testing his (I hope).  It will become clear which works the best when all of the results are on the table.

Just trying to make the point that (in my opinion) shorting the flux around the magnet is not making as good of use of flux as the Flynn design, where the flux is at use even with the coil off.  I think the 'valve' could be done in other ways that would put the shunted flux to work somehow.  Just trying to take a good idea and make it better.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: MeggerMan on July 27, 2006, 08:18:18 PM
Hi Jake,

I have seen the white paper for the Flynn motor now and I think this may be a closer race than I first thought.
Have you got a diagram you can point me to for Jack's design.
I like the way that the field continues around the circumference of the stator, very clever setup.

It will take a bit of drawing to setup the simulation for the Flynn design and I would like to do the same with the Jack's design.
Its a two horse race now, but as long as they both cross the over-unity post then I don't care who wins.

Regards

Rob
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Liberty on July 27, 2006, 08:27:58 PM
The last I understood, Mr. Flynn's design has a restriction on the magnet strength that can be used in the dual flux design due to coil flux balance within the device and core saturation issues.  Has this changed or been improved?  It appears that Jack's magnetic valve design can deal with any strength magnet.

Additional information is at this web site:
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:FPPMT:FAQ#What_is_the_RPM_optimum_of_a_Flynn_PP_Motor.3F (http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:FPPMT:FAQ#What_is_the_RPM_optimum_of_a_Flynn_PP_Motor.3F)
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: jake on July 27, 2006, 11:56:21 PM
Quote
Have you got a diagram you can point me to for Jack's design.

http://www.peswiki.com/index.php/Director:Hilden-Brand_Electromagnet_Motor
That is about what we know about it.  I assume that his description on the 'valve' is incorporated in the motor, but it may not be fair to assume more than that.  He says there are pms in the rotor too.  I assume pms inside the visible coils, but can't be certain.

Quote
The last I understood, Mr. Flynn's design has a restriction on the magnet strength that can be used in the dual flux design due to coil flux balance within the device and core saturation issues.  Has this changed or been improved?

I think that the design shown in the paper would not be restricted in magnet size, but only my guess.  The problem with the replication setup is that the secondary flux generated to steer the second magnet must flow through that magnet, which is already flux rich.  This is one of the glaring problems with the replication device (in my opinion).  I don't think the motor design would suffer the same fate because there is a good iron path for all flux all the time.  If there is saturation, add some iron.

The Flynn design does not have magnets in the rotor, and I don't think it can.  If it has a disadvantage, that might be it.  I think magnets in the rotor would mess up the 'steering' flux and cause the device to not work.  I have a feeling that Jack's motor might have issues with rotor magnets messing with the valves too.  My impression is that Flynn has built 30 or more 'prototypes' and his testing has been much more rigorous and open to scrutiny.  Since Boeing has unquestionably been involved with his motors, there is for sure something unusual going on.

Jack's motors may prove to be even better, but he is a little behind Flynn in the development cycle.  Once he gets some independent testing done we will know exactly what he has.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: energyman8 on July 28, 2006, 02:35:21 AM
Hello everyone, I just thought I would let all know who were interested with GMCC what the latest is. Here is a copy of a post off the Raging Bull message board.


GMC Holding Corp. July 2006 Update

GMC Holding Corp. would like to take this opportunity to thank each and every one of our shareholders for your patience through this challenging period. We would like to assure our investors that we are continuing operations and R&D of the REMAT technology and there is progress with our other holdings. As of this writing the company plans to release these update reports during the last week of each month. These communications will address your most common inquiries received by our Investor Relations representative, Mr. Dan York as well as subjects of interest within our corporate offices. Any questions regarding topics not covered in this address may be directed to Mr. Dan York.

Securities and Exchange Commission

As of July 25, 2006, we are continuing our full cooperation in the ongoing inquiries and requests made by the SEC in understanding the events which have transpired over the past 24 months. At this point, we have no timetable for completion of this process, but we are optimistic with the results from each phase of inquiry. At the request of our legal team, we have been instructed to maintain a neutral position and not release any pertinent information until all questions have been answered and this process has been finalized.

At this time business opportunities and relationships, which were the primary focus of management prior to the SEC suspension of trading, have been placed in a ?holding pattern? until the conclusion of this inquiry. We intend to resume these activities upon conclusion of the SEC inquiry.

Patent Filing

We have received from our patent attorney, the draft of the patent application regarding REMAT. Subject to review by our technical staff, we expect to file this application to the USPTO (United States Patent and Trademark Office) by our next company ?Update? (last week August 2006).

Feasibility Research

In June 2006 GMC began researching potential applications of specific need and immediate potential regarding REMAT. This strategic planning effort relates directly to the critical nature of furthering the development of REMAT as well as introducing its benefits to the marketplace. We are perfecting our technology in the electro-magnetic and the magnetic fields of alternative energy. However, due to the discoveries of multiple ancillary successes in this pursuit, GMC has determined we have additional strategies for introducing REMAT into the marketplace.

GMC is also proud to announce the completion of its REMAT mobile demonstration unit. This project was completed this month. Its purpose is for demonstration of the REMAT technology to potential acquisition candidates, joint venture partners, and interested parties in carrying out GMC Holding Corp.?s objectives in alternative energy production.

Other Holdings

GMC has progressed in its strategic planning efforts in the areas of water safety systems and its water purification product line. We anticipate the rollout of this line as soon as possible but no later than the end of 2006. We have established initial interest in multiple markets.

GMC would like to reiterate that we understand and acknowledge other areas of interest from our shareholders. We encourage you to send any questions you may have concerning the status of our company. We would kindly request you make these correspondences via e-mail to our investor relations representative and we will do our best to provide you with as much information as possible.

?I wish to thank you, and I sincerely appreciate your support in our efforts to provide great value for all our shareholders.?

Richard Brace, CEO
 :)
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: FredWalter on July 28, 2006, 02:37:55 PM
Can this technology be used to move magnetic flux so it cuts through a coil and generates electricity, similar to what is done in http://www.magneticpowerinc.com/mpi-patentapplication.pdf

They claim overunity, in a device that has no moving parts.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: FredWalter on July 28, 2006, 06:58:40 PM
I have already built a solid state transformer, worked good, and is included in the patent.

Were you able to get your solid state transformer to the point that it produced more power than it took to move the magnetic flux around?
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: MeggerMan on July 28, 2006, 11:42:20 PM
Hi JackH,

Is it just me or surely if you can built a solid state transformer that can generate over unity power then why bother with a pm motor?
You would generate the power then use a conventional motor.
OK, a pm motor will be more powerful and run cooler but the manufacture cost may be to high to justify the edge that pm gives.

The one thing that concerns me about using a solid state flux transformer is that when current flows in the output coil as a result of the pulse, then this blocks the pulse switch in the first place.

I will do a simulation using Femm 4 and see what the results give (torroidal core).

Certainly a solid state device will be easier to build than a motor, so this might be something I will build.

Regards

Rob   
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: gyulasun on July 29, 2006, 06:00:51 AM
Hi Rob,

You wrote: "The one thing that concerns me about using a solid state flux transformer is that when current flows in the output coil as a result of the pulse, then this blocks the pulse switch in the first place."

Well, if you separate in time the input switching from the output loading, then you may solve the problem you noticed.  For instance you switch on the useful load at the output only when the switch at the input has gone just off and you store the energy in a capacitor placed after a full wave bridge connected to the output coil.
Yes, this would involve some electronics and restriction in DC load only (not directly AC) but this would be the first step to explore and see overunity from this valve I think. (Later you could use DC/AC converter.)

Regards
Gyula

Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: MeggerMan on July 31, 2006, 12:24:39 AM
Here is the simulation and layout:
(http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m25/kingrs/flux_valve_generator.jpg)
(http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m25/kingrs/flux_valve_generator_c.jpg)
(http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m25/kingrs/flux_valve_generator_b.jpg)

Circuit details:
Total current = 0.1 Amps
Voltage Drop = 0.696989 Volts
Flux Linkage = 0.308483 Webers
Flux/Current = 3.08483 Henries
Voltage/Current = 6.96989 Ohms
Power = 0.0696989 Watts

The torroid is 7" OD and the flux density varies from 0.75T to 1.3T inside the output coil.
This is from a flux density of 0.05T to 0.22T with the input switched off.


It may be the voltage in the output coil will be quite high and as long as the current is below the switch current then it should work fine.

Your idea of switching after the event may be flawed, you will have missed the boat, so to speak.
The output coil load must be present during the switch, as it is change of flux that generates the emf in the coil.

Regards

Rob
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: gyulasun on July 31, 2006, 11:19:04 AM
Hi Rob,

Thanks for showing the simulations, very interesting setup that you embedded the permanent magnet into the body of a 7" OD toroid core. I am not really familiar with the magnetic properties of the M47 steel material you used for the ring core: how high frequency (some hundred Hz, or a few kHz?) can be used for switching it with neglectable eddy current losses?

Wrt to the output switching I may not have been clear enough so I have a go at it again:

The rectifier and the energy storing capacitor is ALWAYS connected to the output coil permanently,  the switch will connect the useful load to the capacitor (and not directly to the output coil), right?  This way "only" the  cap charging current loads the output coil permanently and by not discharging fully the cap later with the real load, the counter effect of the cap charging current on the main flux could be kept at the minimum, that is what I think.  Reading again my previous letter now may make more sense. 

Regards
Gyula
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: MeggerMan on July 31, 2006, 03:19:04 PM
I am still not sure where you are going with your idea, if you charge up the output capacitor via a diode or FWBR then at some point you are going to use this stored energy to light a bulb for example, and therefore there will a load on the output coil.
I think what you may be saying is that we need to limit the amount of current generated in the output coil.
What may happen is it will reach a state of equillibrian where the switch part switches.

Only testing with some laminate steel and a Neo magnet will prove wether this can work.
Simulations are OK to a point

M-47 Steel:
Electrical conductivity= 4.3 MS/m
Thickness = 0.635 mm
Fill factor = 0.98
Saturates at what appears to be 1.4 Tesla

If you get a copy of Femm 4 it tells you in there.

Bit of info here too:
http://www.mapessprowl.com/MAPESWEB.NSF/PublishedTopic/Electrical%20Specs?OpenDocument

Looks like I should use a lower number like M-3

Regards

Rob
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: gyulasun on July 31, 2006, 05:04:29 PM
Hi Rob,

Ok, lets assume you operate the magnetic valve with 50Hz (50% duty) square wave, right?
It will mean the valve is on for 10 ms only out of the full 20 ms cycle, right?
(I could have said a sine wave too but for practically switching an electromagnet on or off a square wave driven switching device is better.)

So the output cap should charge up in 10 ms to a certain voltage, then you have got 10 ms time to discharge this cap through the switch to a load.  So you have a max of 10 ms switch-on time for the switch at the output and during this 10 ms periode the valve is NOT switched on, right? Of course the input and output switching times must be syncronised and probably the input duty cyle should be made variable to find the best operating point possible.  Also the output capacitor's value needs experimenting too.  Also it is very probable that the output capacitor charges up to a few hundred volts when not loaded this would involve choosing an appropiate load etc so these all are factors to be considered.

Thanks for the data on the core material.

Regards
Gyula

Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: MeggerMan on July 31, 2006, 10:13:03 PM
Here's another core based on the Magnetic Power Inc design, this allows switching both ways so may be even better than Jacks design.
There is no ouput coil shown, but you can get the idea.

(http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m25/kingrs/Rob_magnetic_power_inc_a_rev1.jpg)
(http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m25/kingrs/Rob_magnetic_power_inc_b_rev1.jpg)

The femm file is in the yahoo group that I think you are already a member of.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pes_flynn_pp/files/Robs Files/Example by Rob Generator rev 2.FEM (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pes_flynn_pp/files/Robs Files/Example by Rob Generator rev 2.FEM)

Regards

Rob
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Light on August 01, 2006, 04:10:18 AM
Here's another step in studying of Jacks valve.
Just played in different variations and got this speed (see attach).
Anyway the valve works; the matter of OU is a matter of time and practice...
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Liberty on August 01, 2006, 04:33:48 AM
Now try to put a coil where the rotor magnets are for a solid state generator. ;)
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Elvis Oswald on August 01, 2006, 05:16:37 AM
light  - have you tested the valve in a transformer ??
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Light on August 01, 2006, 06:24:04 AM
Yes, I did, but not successfully, so far (see attach)...

Liberty, but how to create pulsation in the core? Can you show your thought in the schematic, pls.

(Is it me only who have troubles to open this site?..needa 10 times to try till get it...).
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: hartiberlin on August 01, 2006, 06:58:35 AM
Hi Light,
well done with the MPEG movie and the mechanical
rotor!
How much power do you need to use to switch on the magnet
from the shortout-iron loop to the outer core ?
Do you do it optical timing in this motor ?`


Please can you explain, what we see in this above picture ?
Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.
P.S. The site is running okay.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: MT on August 01, 2006, 07:14:40 AM
Hi all,
browsin internet for sellers of magnetic iron I found this company in USA
http://www.cmispecialty.com/

offering among others also
CMI-C Magnetic Core Iron Cold Drawn Rod and Bar per ASTM A-848-01

regards,
MT
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Liberty on August 01, 2006, 03:42:09 PM
Yes, I did, but not successfully, so far (see attach)...

Liberty, but how to create pulsation in the core? Can you show your thought in the schematic, pls.

(Is it me only who have troubles to open this site?..needa 10 times to try till get it...).

Yes, I could show you a schematic.  But I was thinking that perhaps Jack might like to show you since it is his device and he is the owner and inventor of the idea.  I think that it would be more appropriate for Jack to show you instead of me, plus what he has done has been tested to work. :)  So I step aside and invite Jack to jump in here if he would like to, and show you himself his fine work on the Hildenbrand solid state alternator.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Nali2001 on August 01, 2006, 11:16:52 PM
Hello Light,
Great motor you got there. 8)
Now I am not trying to discredit your or anything, but are you sure that the magnet is doing the work? I have machined several cores that fit around the magnets perfectly and I must say that I am having great difficulty trying to find any evidence of some extra power that was supplied by the magnet. I too have build solid state transformer but the results with the magnet are the same as without. I don?t seem to get the ?switch? to work and ?release? the magnet?s power for practical use. Al that I see is the flux from the Electro magnet? So are you sure you are getting more powerful results with the magnet? Should be simple to test. Just run the motor/transformer without the magnet (or insert a piece of steel in stead) Don?t get me wrong I do believe in this design but it?s seems there is some kind of sweet spot that must be found, like balancing saturation to the required point where it only takes that extra 8watt to wet the switch into action or something..

Keep up the good work!
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: jake on August 01, 2006, 11:39:11 PM
Quote
Liberty, but how to create pulsation in the core? Can you show your thought in the schematic, pls.

Quote
But I was thinking that perhaps Jack might like to show you since it is his device and he is the owner and inventor of the idea.

A quote from Jack:
Quote
Yes I have built a solid state transformer out of this valve, and yes it worked great, I think I was getting about three times more power out than input power. I'm sure it would have been better with a good electronic control. However I am not into electronics very much.   I used an old auto radio vibrator to power it.  A good electronic pulse generator would be much better.  And yes the solid state transformer is covered in the patent.

I'm not sure he's the one to do the circuit.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: MeggerMan on August 02, 2006, 12:39:23 AM
Here is my latest idea for a static generator using about 20kG of laminate steel and 3 x 25mm x 25mm x 25mm N38 grade neodymium magnets.
This can be built from 50mm wide steel, 0.3mm thickness.
Tin snips will be needed to cut the thinner strips for the core that surrounds the magnets.

Input is about +50mA at around 4 volts drop(209 mW) to switch and -10mA at 0.83 volts drop(8 mW) to switch completely off.

(http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m25/kingrs/RobSolidStateGenRev1_a.jpg)
(http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m25/kingrs/RobSolidStateGenRev1_b.jpg)
(http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m25/kingrs/RobSolidStateGenRev1_c.jpg)
(http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m25/kingrs/RobSolidStateGenRev1_d.jpg)

Should be simple to build as it is all 50mm wide plate apart from the side packets for the magnets.

Just needs 4 x power mosfet setup in bridge mode, but I am not sure how to set the voltage so that the +ve swing is greater than the -ve swing.

Regards

Rob
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: SGi on August 02, 2006, 02:11:37 AM
.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: hartiberlin on August 02, 2006, 03:09:22 AM
Hi Rob,
nice ideas !
How did you calculate the input power to switch ?

Could you also please show the output coils ?
Many thanks for your simulations.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Light on August 02, 2006, 03:15:20 AM
Thank you guys.
Yes, Nali, I've tried coil without magnet (but solid core instead) and did not notice any difference. But it's hard to say exactly without proper measurements (just used rpm compare).
Looking at Jack's pictures I believe his rotor works against solid block of stator (like on the picture below). Yes it runs. But I found, that in this setup ('magnet gate', like SMOT but with magnet) it runs much faster.

Now I'm trying to switch polarity  to reverse field right after 'dead spot' (in the middle of the 'stator'),  to get another pulse at the same spot (seems it's became just a pulse motor, not a Valve, but for me it seems more efficient). I already tried this with magnet (Valve) and completely destroyed pretty powerful magnet (field of steel bushing worked against field of magnet and demagnetised it).

Still interested in Liberty's thought about solid state arrangement of this model (I think if Jack patented his idea there's nothing wrong if we will discuss some other possibilities).

Thank you, hartiberlin ,
But as you can see it's a little different setup, I think.
Will keep in picture if find some improvements.
(still can't open even my own postings, work just by 'reply' mode; something wrong with my comp I guess...not sure if pictures come through, sorry if so).
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: sarmasio on August 02, 2006, 04:34:55 AM
Here is my  idea for a static generator using Jack's valve.

The input is the 110 V 60 Hz  AC line current (easy to measure the power)
the output is also easy to measure.

Thanks,

Adalbert.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: hartiberlin on August 02, 2006, 06:55:17 AM
@Light,
yes,your pic came through , but maybe you can tell us more about your setup.
Where is the magnet and what are the black quaders ? Are these the iron cores ?
Do you have inside the blue coils an iron cylinder where a Neodym magnet
resides ? What exactly kind of magnet ?
How big and how strong and how much voltage and current do you need to switch it
on ?

How did you manage to demagnetize it ? At which voltage and which current levels ?
How many windings do your coils have ?

Maybe try a different browser, IE 6.x SP1 works for me.
Many thanks.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: hartiberlin on August 02, 2006, 07:00:59 AM
@sarmasio,
Very good idea Albert,
what is the center output core ? Just iron or
something else ?

It would be interesting to see, if this way also the added flux of the
2 valve permanent magnets would help to reduce the lenz law effect, so
how much drag back onto the 2 valve coils would be there ?

Maybe user Light could just test this with just one valve and one
output coil as he already has all the components ready to go ?

Many thanks !
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: sarmasio on August 02, 2006, 07:35:01 AM
Hi,

the outputcore is just iron, but there is another image,
I hope this is a bit clearer.

Thanks,

Adalbert.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Liberty on August 02, 2006, 08:34:37 AM
Thank you guys.
Yes, Nali, I've tried coil without magnet (but solid core instead) and did not notice any difference. But it's hard to say exactly without proper measurements (just used rpm compare).
Looking at Jack's pictures I believe his rotor works against solid block of stator (like on the picture below). Yes it runs. But I found, that in this setup ('magnet gate', like SMOT but with magnet) it runs much faster.

Now I'm trying to switch polarity  to reverse field right after 'dead spot' (in the middle of the 'stator'),  to get another pulse at the same spot (seems it's became just a pulse motor, not a Valve, but for me it seems more efficient). I already tried this with magnet (Valve) and completely destroyed pretty powerful magnet (field of steel bushing worked against field of magnet and demagnetised it).

Still interested in Liberty's thought about solid state arrangement of this model (I think if Jack patented his idea there's nothing wrong if we will discuss some other possibilities).

Thank you, hartiberlin ,
But as you can see it's a little different setup, I think.
Will keep in picture if find some improvements.
(still can't open even my own postings, work just by 'reply' mode; something wrong with my comp I guess...not sure if pictures come through, sorry if so).

Hi Light,

I would try to set the output coils between two of Jack's valves.  You could make a ring out of them.  The core between valves should be laminated silicon steel or maybe magnetite.  The core should be twice as long as the magnetic valve shield to allow the magnetic flux to fall back to the valve instead of the next magnet.  You may need to have a paper gap between the laminate core and the magnetic valve to assist in valve operation (this may help it to continue to switch with a small air gap?)  I would pulse the coils all at the same time.  The output coils would have to be in phase if placed in series so the output does not cancel out.  I included two visual pictures except the core in the pictures is not long enough (should be twice or more as long as the magnetic valve length, I would guess to allow the flux to switch back to the valve).
This is all just a guess, as I have not tried any of Jack's valves or solid state generator. 
I think you could use any number of valves and collection coils, (assuming that this works).  It would still be interesting to see how Jack set his solid state generator up...

Hope this helps.



 
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: MeggerMan on August 02, 2006, 12:10:45 PM
Hi,
The latest design I did last night that was based on 50mm wide laminated steel sheet was simulated in Femm 4.
I am not going to attribute the design of the valve to Jack as his idea is taken from the Nasa boots, who probably took it from someone else so for now I will refer to is as a magnetic valve.

I kept increasing the current until the flux was hardly changing.
+50mA to turn the switch on and -10 mA to turn it fully off.
I could just let it drop to 0mA but the was still a bit of flux left(0.1T) in the core.

I plan to buy about 10-20 of 25mm Sq by 12.5mm height n38 magnets.
Also for measurement I will get a AD22151 linear hall sensor to place tight inside the core to monitor the flux density.
http://www.analog.com/UploadedFiles/Data_Sheets/5074535122786366627AD22151_a.pdf

It is important that people remember that to switch the flux, only a very small current is needed even with this setup which is 0.5m wide and 0.13m hieght and 0.05m depth, weighting over 20Kg.
The power is 0.2Watts(500 turns 0.2mm copper wire for each magnetic valve) so if you are pumping 30 watts and over then you have missed the point altogether.

Measurement of coil current and flux density is important to getting this setup to work.
Thats not to say that as soon as you load up the output coil the switch will stop switching, this is where testing will show up this issue.

I can get 8 output coils on the two main yokes of the core, but these were not shown in the simulation I did.

Regards

Rob
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Liberty on August 02, 2006, 03:38:15 PM
One additional note and thought on the pictures of the Solid State Alternators:  The valve should be tested separate from the circuit first to make sure that it is operating correctly.  The paper insulator may not be needed, because the Lentz law that would be in effect, would feed back a magnetic field that is the same as the poles of the magnetic valve under load, but slightly delayed.  This action (Lentz law) may actually help to shut off the magnetic flow from the magnetic valves with a short repel field, due to pulling power out of the device.  It may have a limit as to how much power you can develop or more likely, how fast you can pulse the coils for maximum effectiveness.  From what Jack tells us, a slower pulse works better.  So 60hz just might be a nice number.  If you have enough coils to develop 120 volts, you would not need an inverter for household current.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: gyulasun on August 02, 2006, 09:26:33 PM
Why not use variable Crystal Oscillators to do the switching? Just a thought.

Like this one rated ajustable 1 Hz  to  20 MHz  temp. stable
http://www.onspec.co.uk/oscdetail.php?ID=17

Hi,

I cannot help but mention to you that the crystal oscillators included in your link are not adjustable continuously in the given frequency range (i.e. between 1Hz to 20 MHz),  rather it means that they manufacture such crystal oscillators to any ONE particular (user defined) frequency within the given range and it can be only adjusted against aging.

A typically active crystal can be tuned by changing the reactances included in the oscillator circuit and the rate of pull generally is 1-2 kHz for each value of MHz, depending on the activity of the crystal: for instance you can adjust the output frequency of a 10 MHz crystal oscillator about 10 x 1 kHz=10 kHz to 10 x 2 kHz=20 kHz max while the stability does not suffer. For a 5 MHz crystal this is 5-10 kHz only.

If you look for continuously tunable frequency 'generator' you may consider the good old NE555 timer IC for purposes needed in this thread, there are many circuits with it on well searchable websites.

Regards
Gyula

Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Light on August 03, 2006, 04:10:16 AM
hartiberlin
"Where is the magnet and what are the black quaders ? Are these the iron cores ?
- Magnet is inside of the coil, in steel bushing. "Black quaders" are steel flatbars. Mild steel core.

"Do you have inside the blue coils an iron cylinder where a Neodym magnet resides ? What exactly kind of magnet ?
- Yes, mild steel bushing. Don't know, it's not ceramic (not black), not Neodium (not THAT strong), AlNiCo, probably; od3/4x3/4".

"How big and how strong and how much voltage and current do you need to switch it on ?
- 12V@3-4A (battery charger). Actually it works from 9V bat, but torque (rpm) is  low.

"How did you manage to demagnetize it ? At which voltage and which current levels ?
- The same pulses but backwards (against magnet flux). It lost magnetism dramatically, can't hold a bolt...But now it seems it's getting stronger...Strange...

"How many windings do your coils have ?
- Gage 24, around 200 wind-s.

"Maybe try a different browser, IE 6.x SP1
- Where can I get it and why I do not have any problems with other sites? Mystery...

"Maybe user Light could just test this with just one valve and one
output coil
- I'll try...

Will keep in touch...

Liberty.  Yes, it's interesting, but I thought regarding this model you can express you idea in drawing ("Now try to put a coil where the rotor magnets are for a solid state generator "). Thank you anyway.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Liberty on August 03, 2006, 04:17:59 AM
Light,

As far as using one valve, you could just put the core of the coil across each pole of the valve to see if it will pulse.  But you might want to check your valve and adjust it the way that Jack said:  He tests how much weight the magnet will pick up, then takes the shell with the coil (without the magnet inside) and sets the power on the coil to the same strength of picking up the weight as the magnet did.

Hopefully those pictures were helpful for something to consider.  Just some thoughts to kick around.  Good luck on your experiments.  I am continuing to developing the magnet motor that I made and am too wrapped up in it to try the other things with you, but I like to follow developments and experiments that are on this thread.  Hopefully you will get your set up to work like you want it to.  Have fun.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: hartiberlin on August 03, 2006, 07:00:59 AM
hartiberlin
- Yes, mild steel bushing. Don't know, it's not ceramic (not black), not Neodium (not THAT strong), AlNiCo, probably; od3/4x3/4".

Hi Light, many thanks for the infos.
Ohh, I see, AlNiCo, well these are especially bad for these purposes,
cause they demagnetize fast, as they don?t have a high Coercitive-force.
So -Hc is very low and so they demagnetize very fast, when you
apply a reverse field.
So better use strong Neodym magnets for this case.
Many thanks.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: hartiberlin on August 03, 2006, 07:08:11 AM
@Rob,
how did you come up with the 50 mA and 4 Volts ?
Could this somehow seen from the simulation
or did you already actually build this thing ?
( I have not yet worked with coils in FEMM, just with magnets)
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: MeggerMan on August 03, 2006, 10:10:23 AM
Hi Stefan,
See attached file.
Femm allows you to specify a material called 0.2mm wire in a circuit.
You specify the number of turns as +ve or -ve indicating the turns direction (into the paper or out).
You can also specify the current for the wire, it works out the volts drop and tells you in the circuit info.
One of the preferences is the depth of the whole simulation, I set this to 1 inch (25mm).
If you increase the depth, the volts drop goes up and so does the power used.
This is the depth of the core itself, but I think it may not take into account the distance between the two halfs of the coil you draw.
If you increase the distance between the two coil blocks the program does not know they are part of the same coil.
So in reality the power used will most likely be double. ie. 0.4 watts

Regards

Rob

Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: MeggerMan on August 03, 2006, 11:44:58 PM
I am just working out the fine details of this core using 4 stacked magnets (N38 50mm height x 25mm x 25mm) and 0.9mm (20SWG) copper wire for the 500 turns on each of the 3 main limbs.
Using much thicker wire allows the volts drop to go down and power consumption to also go down dramatically.
Using more magnets increases the flux slightly whilst still using the same power to switch the field, but more important gives space for the switch windings themselves.
The total weight of copper for the windings is about 3.5 to 4 kG or 600m of 0.9mm diameter wire.
I will also include 2 small slots for the tiny linear hall effect probes, this way I can monitor when and how well the switch is working.
The output windings can then be added once the switch is proved to work.

Regards

Rob
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: MeggerMan on August 04, 2006, 12:51:04 AM
Sorry the file is in rar format, but you should be able to un-rar it.
This has the following fixes:
1. Winding wire is much thicker (0.9mm).
2. Power consumption is about 0.04 watts (1/10 of the previous).
3. Depth of core is now correct - 50mm.
4. Double height of magnets (12 magnets).
5. Better overall core shape, squarer windows.

Just needs the probe windows adding.

+50mA

(http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m25/kingrs/RobSolidStateGenRev2_a.jpg)

-25mA

(http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m25/kingrs/RobSolidStateGenRev2_b.jpg)

Regards

Rob
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: hartiberlin on August 04, 2006, 01:32:47 AM
Hi Rob,
many thanks for posting your new FEM circuit.
I did not know that one could define a "circuit property" also and
apply to a magnet wire ( copper wire) a current in this program.

That is a very neat feature!

Are you sure the setting "series"  is right ?
As in this coil space the wires  are all in parallel  if you look from the sideview, aren?t they ?
Or how is this defined in the program ?

What is the complex operator J x has to do with it ?
Can you also apply phase relationsships there ?
So can you also simulate AC timings with phase shiftings this way ?

Is it also possible to see with FEMM how much voltage an output coil would get ?
Probably not, as this would need a dnamic ssimulation as the output voltage
is just proportional to the d(phi)/dt inside the core piece of the output coil, right ?
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: hartiberlin on August 04, 2006, 01:37:09 AM
Hi Rob another question is,
if you will get so much wire into such a small coil space ?
Maybe simulate different coil spaces ( different big areas for them)
and have a look, if the simulation
will change..
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: dutchy1966 on August 04, 2006, 08:19:48 AM
Sorry the file is in rar format, but you should be able to un-rar it.
This has the following fixes:
1. Winding wire is much thicker (0.9mm).
2. Power consumption is about 0.04 watts (1/10 of the previous).
Hi Rob,

Good job putting all the effort in to create a nice simulation of the hildenbrand valve.
Just a little thought about the power consumption you mentioned. The power consumption is in my opinion only valid when there is no output current (coils). As soon as power is generated in whatever output coil there will be created a counter flux. This will make the valve to switch back as this counter flux is much stronger than the flux of the switching valve. Because of this, I think, your switching power should be much higher to prevent this from happening. (Or is here a chance that the whole thing starts to resonate....hmmm)
What do you think of this?

greetz,

Dutchy
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: MeggerMan on August 04, 2006, 09:32:53 AM
Hi Stefan,
Series, yes but you could do it in parallel too but with triple the current.
J is something to do with a phase angle in a pulse or AC circuit, I think, you need to work though the electromagntic tutorial, it was mentioned in there.
I am not sure how to work out the output power in an output coil using Femm, I wish I did, have a look and see if you can find it in the help.
You can work out from the size of the wire and turns, the space it will take up.
limb height / wire dia. = turns per layer.
total turns/turns per layer = layers
layers * wire dia. = depth

Hi Dutchy,
Yes, I know that when the output coil is loaded then the switch will be reluctant to switch, if at all.
I need to figure out if I can add an output coil in the simulation.
I am hoping the voltage in the output coil will be very high so that the current can remain low, as it is the current the will appose the switch.


I am also going to look at adjusting the steel around the magnets so that I only needed a +ve pulse only.
At the moment I need a -ve pulse to turn the switch fully off.

Regards

Rob


Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: hartiberlin on August 05, 2006, 02:12:50 AM
Hi Jack,
many thanks for the additional infos !
You seem to be the BEST southern Ohio Red Neck ! ;)
Best regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Liberty on August 05, 2006, 02:39:42 AM
Hello All,

Just a note.   When building this valve you must make sure that the area of the magnet jacket face is at least as large as the area of the magnet face.  Also the type of steel you use is very importent, miled steel has alot of carbon in it, carbon is very is a diomagnetic and just a little bit will cause alot of problems.  Use soft magnetic Iron or somekind of good magnetic material.

Also, the generator that I built is very easy on power. The motor used to operate it does not change rpm much at all when using no power from the generator or at full power.   I think it is because the permanent magnet is somewhat isolated from the output coil.   I think you will be surprised on how much the drawing power from the output coil will have little or no effect on input power.

Also, one way to make sure that you are using the correct input power is to put the magnet in a fixture, check how much pickup power it has, then put the magnet sleve(with out the magnet) into the same fixture, increase current/voltage just untill the sleave will pick up the same amount of weight.

Also make sure that you do not reverse the input power around the sleave with the magnet in it, you will end up with a dead magnet.

Also,  Always make sure that the field pices are at least twice as thick as the magnet face, if not you will never get the four times amplifaction from the valve.

I have been reading alot of messages from this message board. there are some that are trying to make this valve two simple, it must be made right to work.   The type of steel is very importent, The area of the face of the sleave is very importent.

Also, when building a solid state transformer, you must have a small air gap(paper) between the output coil core and the valve. Other wise the magnetic energy will just remain in the coil core and not switch back to the valve. Magnetic flux lines will always return to the least resistance path.

Just keep one thing in mind. this thing looks very simple, however it took me severial years to get it to work just right(may be because I'm a southern Ohio Red Neck) I don't know.

I hope you all sucess,,,,,,Later,,,,Jack W Hildenbrand




Jack,

Can you give out some numbers on your solid state alternator from your tests?  (Also if you have a generator/alternator running off of your motor)? 

1.  How much power does it take to run the coil (please tell us if this is average power consumption or just when the coil is on and what frequency you are pulsing the coil at), with what size magnet?  And then how much power (Volts X Amps) are you able to draw out of the output coil? 

2.  Will the solid state alternator self run by making a DC power supply out of the output coil, by using the power collection winding and hooking a bridge rectifier and a capacitor to create a DC supply, and then feeding the amount of power that is needed back to the magnetic valve coil to be pulsed for continued power generation?

3.  Can you run an alternator power output coil off of one of your motors that you have made and run the motor while generating power?

Thanks for whatever you feel comfortable sharing.

Liberty
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: kadora on August 05, 2006, 09:39:36 AM
HI ALL

PLEASE COULD SOMEBODY EXPLAIN ME
WHAT IT MEANS OR WHAT IS DIFFERENT
BETWEEN TWO JACKs SENTENCES ON
THE PAGE 37 ?

1
make sure that the area of the magnet
jacked face is at least as large as the
area of the magnet face
2
make sure that the FIELD PICES are
at least twice as thick as the magnet
face

what are field pices ?

I would like to understand perfectly to his
magnetic valve      thanks




Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: gyulasun on August 05, 2006, 07:53:02 PM
HI ALL

PLEASE COULD SOMEBODY EXPLAIN ME
WHAT IT MEANS OR WHAT IS DIFFERENT
BETWEEN TWO JACKs SENTENCES ON
THE PAGE 37 ?

1
make sure that the area of the magnet
jacked face is at least as large as the
area of the magnet face
2
make sure that the FIELD PICES are
at least twice as thick as the magnet
face

what are field pices ?

I would like to understand perfectly to his
magnetic valve      thanks

Hi,

Let's see how I understand:

If you have a look at this picture at peswiki.com:
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Image:Hilden-Brand_electromagnetic_valve.gif   and consider the (empty) pink coloured cylinder, it has got a cross section of a ring, right? (this ring is shown with OD=2 inch and ID=1 inch.)
I think this ring's area is the magnet's jacket face. (and not jacked as you wrote)

The FIELD PIECES are the U shaped iron blocks as shown in the picture;  if you use iron blocks that are as wide as the OD of the cylinder, then the height is also the same as the OD, right? This means that the cross section of the iron blocks is a square with OD x OD size.

This is how I think Jack meant in his letter. If there is anything I misunderstood, Jack please correct me.

Regards
Gyula
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: MeggerMan on August 06, 2006, 01:07:50 PM
I am currently looking at simulations for a 40 x 40 x 12mm ferrite transformer core. Two "E" shapes.
With a 5mm yoke and outer limb width, 12mm diameter centre limb.
The results are as follows:

40mm Core                  

Mag Dia   Current   Field   Off   Field   Diff   No Mag
2   0.05   0.105   0   0.051   0.054   
3   0.05   0.16   0   0.085   0.075   
4   0.05   0.21   0   0.11   0.1   
4.5   0.05   0.24   0   0.14   0.1   
4.7   0.05   0.25   0   0.15   0.1   
5   0.05   0.27   0   0.17   0.1   
5.5   0.05   0.32   0   0.22   0.1   
6   0.05   0.39   0   0.3   0.09   
5   0.04   0.25   0   0.17   0.08   0.017
5   0.05   0.27   0   0.17   0.1   0.02
5   0.06   0.3   0   0.17   0.13   0.026
5   0.07   0.32   0   0.17   0.15   
5   0.08   0.34   0   0.17   0.17   
5   0.09   0.37   0   0.17   0.2   


Mag Dia in mm, centre limb diameter is 12mm.
The current is in amps
Field in Teslas for the outer limb.
Off current is in amps (no current in input coil)
The no magnet column is where I replace the magnet with steel.
I cannot find ferrite as a material in FEMM so I used silicon steel.

The important column is the "difference". This is the difference in Teslas between the on state of 50mA and off state of zero amps.

I will post the images later so that you can see clearer what I am talking about.

Regards

Rob
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: MeggerMan on August 07, 2006, 02:34:20 PM
Hi,
The largest core half I can find is this one from Ferroxcube:
http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/endecaSearch/partDetail.jsp?SKU=3056430&N=401

Uses 3C90 core material. Anyone know how/where to get the parameters for ferrite (B/H curves)  into Femm material library?

Around 59 x 62 x 22mm

The ferrite will give a higher flux density for a given coil/current than silicon steel but has a lower saturation as a result.
As I understand it it also does not suffer so much with eddy currents.
I read on one site the typical saturation for ferrite is about 400mT which is fine for what I want.

I plan to drill a hole into the centre rod of the "E" (both halves) to house the neodymium magnets (10 off N38 5mm x 3mm disks).
Then grind a small cutout in the leg part of the "E" to take the hall effect sensor.
The two halves will sandwich the sensor in the slot.
Then I can test various currents in the input coil (centre leg/limb) and measure the flux density in the outer leg.
I plan to test this with the core I currently have (39mm x 45 x 12mm).

Then the next part it to use a square pulse from a NE555 timer to drive the input coil, add two extra output coils to the outer legs and measure the flux with various output loads.
At the same time I can take measurements of power and plot a graph of input power and output power vs frequency.
Hopefully at some point output will exceed input. ;o)

Regards

Rob


Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: MeggerMan on August 09, 2006, 12:35:51 AM
Hi,
See attached femm file for:

Simulations for a 40mm sq. "E" core, 12mm thick:

(http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m25/kingrs/40mmEcorerev1_a.jpg)
(http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m25/kingrs/40mmEcorerev1_b.jpg)
(http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m25/kingrs/40mmEcorerev1_c.jpg)
(http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m25/kingrs/40mmEcorerev1_d.jpg)

5mA for on current giving 272mT in the outer limbs
0mA for off current giving 78mT in the outer limbs.

Notice I put an air gap in between the two sets of magnets, I needed to do this to keep the flux density low for the off state and within the saturation of the ferrite in the on state.

Regards

Rob
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: gyulasun on August 09, 2006, 11:20:48 AM
Hi,
The largest core half I can find is this one from Ferroxcube:
http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/endecaSearch/partDetail.jsp?SKU=3056430&N=401

Uses 3C90 core material. Anyone know how/where to get the parameters for ferrite (B/H curves)  into Femm material library?

Hi Rob,

Here is a link to a Data Sheet of the 3C90 material and the B/H curves are included. But I do not know how to enter these data into FEMM library (because I haven't used the software yet...)

Gyula
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: MeggerMan on August 09, 2006, 11:05:45 PM
And that link is where?
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: gyulasun on August 09, 2006, 11:44:43 PM
Oh, sorry I forgot to include and did not notice...

Here it is: http://www.ferroxcube.com/prod/assets/3c90.pdf

Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: MeggerMan on August 10, 2006, 12:05:04 AM
Yes, I have that printed off, just need to re-enter the values from the graph again, as there is a lead and lag line that I need to be between, I do not fully understand the two lines, but I can estimate where the middle line will be.
Then I can look at the simulation again.
I know it is going to be different, but what I am worried is that ferrite will not work well at all as a switch and that I will have no choice but to use laminate steel which has a massive saturation of over 2T where 3c90 is just over 400mT.


Many thanks.

Rob
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: MeggerMan on August 11, 2006, 12:22:50 AM
Hi,
Finally I have loaded a rough curve for the ferrite 3c90 material into Femm.
See attached file that uses it as a material.

On state in the outer leg is 296 mT (20mA coil current)
Off state in the outer leg is 81 mT (no coil current)

This works very well and as it turns out should be more efficient than silicon steel at the lower power levels.
For proof of concept and ease of construction a Ferroxcube "E" core looks like a very good option.
Just need to start construction now that I am happy with the simulation results.

Regards

Rob
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: gyulasun on August 11, 2006, 01:50:02 PM
Hi Rob,

Have you checked that with your latest simulation how much the flux is in the outer leg when you remove the permanent magnet and let the the 20mA current flow into the electromagnet? 
Would be curious to know.  Thanks.

Regards
Gyula
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: kadora on August 12, 2006, 08:47:25 AM
Hi ROB
I have the same question like Guyla
because I am worrying that you will
get very similar field ratio between
state ON and OFF when permanent
magnet is not present.
I hope I am wrong.
Have a nice weekend.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: kadora on August 12, 2006, 01:39:06 PM
Hi all
Just an idea.
What if Jack valve was built in a bit
different way. I think , instead an iron jacket
to use thick coil wound with the iron wire only
and then to switch this iron winding .
Would it be more efficient?

even a stupid idea can shift you to better one.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: MeggerMan on August 13, 2006, 06:47:37 PM
Hi, Gyuda, Kadora, JackH,

Iron wire as a coil is a very poor conductor and will be of no use here.
The ideal material would be room temperature super-conductor wire which does not exist (at the moment).

Thanks for pointing out the flaw in my idea, I will make sure all future simulations are done with/without a solid core of the same material.
 
OK, I have just completed a lot of simulations on ferrite and silicon steel and the results are:

Ferrite will only work with a very very low power magnet, even less than cermic 5.
So this is a non-starter.
Ferrite will actually produce less change of flux with a ceramic 5 than with a solid ferrite core at 20mA coil current.

The only way to go is with silicon steel and the most powerful NdFeb Magnet you can get.
With the torroid setup the difference at 20mA is 150% of the setup with a solid core of silicon steel at the same current.
M19 Steel:
Cur. I(mA)Core materialFlux min(mT)Flux max(mT)0NB374315020NB3715258620M1967294

As you can see the max. difference is:
(On state - Off state) - On state (solid steel core) = 586 - 150 - 294 = 142 mT

This means that I need to scrap the idea of using ferrite, and even using silicon steel, the design will need to be very tight to make use of all the available additional flux.

Regards

Rob

Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: gyulasun on August 13, 2006, 07:53:19 PM
Hi Rob,

Thanks for sharing yours simulations but I fail to notice any answer to my question before and may I repeat it with your kind permission:
"Have you checked that with your latest simulation how much the flux is in the outer leg when you remove the permanent magnet and let the the 20mA current flow into the electromagnet? 
Would be curious to know.  Thanks."

So I mean to leave the volume of the permanent magnet empty with air and then see the flux in the outer leg solely by the electromagnet . Because if you take out the magnet, its lack will change very little the resultant permeability in that leg area where it was placed before.

I agree with voting for materials that give the biggest flux change possible but would not you have serious eddy current losses by choosing silicon steel as the core? Or you choose a very low switching frequency to minimize it?  Jack wrote about iron particles mixed with insulating material as the best which is just the CURE against eddy losses (just like to use ferrit in this respect). Oh I remember now you have plenty of laminations that is ok.

Thanks
Gyula
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: MT on August 15, 2006, 12:04:03 AM
This is maybe slightly of the current discussion but I though it might be interesting to post. On Sunday did simulation on the valve to see how it works in FEMM. So I made a 3 leg circuit with magnet in the middle leg. On the picture first circuit is with shorted magnet. In the left leg in position X=-107.9,Y=42 we get |B|=0.04676.
Second circuit is with coil switched on with 0.4A current. In this case there are no flux lines around magnet but left leg on the same spot has flux about 0.3741T!
The last third circuit is without magnet with coil switched on to the same current and on the same place in left leg |B|=0.1959T.

So in circuit without magnet by switching coil on and off flux difference = 0.1959T
In the circuit with magnet we get 0.3741-0.04676=0.3273T flux difference or 67% more flux comparing to circuit without magnet.
Although I expected 2x more flux it is still nice isn't it?  ;)

with kind regards,
MT

PS: Thanks kingrs for your FEMM files I used them as starting point.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: MeggerMan on August 15, 2006, 12:41:57 AM
Hi All,

Gyula, I have included your air core results in the attached spreadsheet.

Nice to see that I am not the only one trying the Femm simulations out (MT well done!).
MT, I think your units are wrong, I think you mean T not mT, out by a factor of 1000.
Check the polarity of your current, try -ve current to see what difference that makes.

I have been playing with lua script tonight (attached) to speed up the results and they are as per attached spreadsheet:

(http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m25/kingrs/block_a.jpg)

(http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m25/kingrs/block_b.jpg)

So to sum it up I have managed to get a 186mT excess flux density over a steel core, which is 127% excess.
The circuit properties for the on state:

Total current = 0.0095 Amps
Voltage Drop = 0.397284 Volts
Flux Linkage = 7.51958 Webers
Flux/Current = 791.534 Henries
Voltage/Current = 41.8193 Ohms
Power = 0.00377419 Watts

Thats 3.8mW of power, quite low I know for a device that is 10" x 15" x 2".

I have run hundreds of simulations to arrive at the shape shown above for the best efficiency.
Try and beat it if you can, everything you need is attached as a file.

Regards

Rob






Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: MT on August 15, 2006, 08:43:37 AM
Thanks, yes units should be Teslas not mTeslas. I modified previous post.

all the best,
MT
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: MeggerMan on August 15, 2006, 11:37:45 AM
Hi,
Although I have managed to get an excess flux value of 128% it must be remembered that cross sectional area of the outer leg compared to the inner leg is much smaller, so to be fair I would really need to compare apples with apples and make the inner leg the same width.

Also I want to keep to a certain plate width. I know I can get hold of silicon steel in 50mm wide strips.
But getting narrower strips will require cutting.
I have my linear hall sensors now and hopefully I can measure up to about 1.1T if I set the device in unipolar mode. AD22151
http://www.analog.com/UploadedFiles/Data_Sheets/5074535122786366627AD22151_a.pdf
Also I need to decide on a square core (easier to build) or round core shape(more efficient).


Regards

Rob
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: gyulasun on August 15, 2006, 05:06:46 PM

Hi All,

Gyula, I have included your air core results in the attached spreadsheet.
......
I have run hundreds of simulations to arrive at the shape shown above for the best efficiency.


Hi Rob,

Many thanks for your efforts and the answers. Very interesting you have reached that shape shown and what a pity a true 3D EM simulator with optimizing features cost 20-30k $s.  It is sure that the strength, the length and the OD of the permanent magnet used have got an effect on the sizes and the shape of the jacket and there is a best optimum ratio between the mentioned properties. With a 3D simulator this best relationship could be arrived at more precisely and closer to reality.

Regards
Gyula
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: MeggerMan on August 15, 2006, 09:17:09 PM
Hi Gyula,
I can do a sort of 3D shape in Femm, but it would be a sphere enclosing a cylinder sort of thing, with the outer sphere being the return path for the valve, an impossible shape to build granted.
Sort of like a tokomak reactor.
I did try a simulation with a 1" square magnet core and the results were no where near as good as the one I showed previous with what I think may be a 2" magnet core.
I will try again, but it should be able to scale down and get the same efficiency, if not, it could be that this only works on a larger scale.

Regards

Rob
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: mark australia on August 16, 2006, 05:50:46 AM
Hi Jack,
well done, and it will be interesting to see the alternator results. just curious how you measured the hp on the 2" magnet motor?
Mark
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: MeggerMan on August 16, 2006, 01:17:36 PM
Hi Mark,
I think Jack said he was using a De Prony brake, one example here:
http://www.geocities.com/koneheadx/measuringshaftpower.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Prony_brake

Just a simple horsepower = Pi x 2 x lever len.(ft) x RPM / 33000

Input = 0.150 kW
Output 0.53 HP = 0.4 kW
Efficiency = 0.4 / 0.150 = 260 % at the drive shaft, so quite an achievment.

In comparison my Bosch electric drill is rated 0.55kW and produces 0.25HP (0.19 kW)
So that is 34 % efficient (may actually be a little better than this, but I've not tested it)

The 2" magnet is the diameter of the magnet disk, they are cheaper to buy as disks so I suspect Jack has to stack these to get a cylinder shape for the core of his valve.
The valve is probably about 3.4 to 4" diameter.

Regards

Rob

Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Liberty on August 16, 2006, 06:53:11 PM
Congratulations to you Jack.  I know that everyone is looking forward to your next post on the alternator/motor combination test results.  You have my best wishes for success with your motor alternator, and I find your test results very exciting and encouraging news.   

Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: MT on August 16, 2006, 10:56:10 PM
-> Jack
Congratulations. 100% is already quite an achievement meaning losses are overcomed. Is there a plan to do also some press release? Maybe media will be listening with motor independently verified. I wish you success with the next important test.

-> Rob
Was playing with your implementation of Hilden-Brand transformer (I had to give it a name :) and tried different materials. For example using M47 steel gives excess flux of 237mT with current 0.014. It is interesting because M-47 has higher losses (if I'm correct) than M-19.
Attached is adapted scheme and text output from lua script.

I thinking to implement this on a real transformer body with cutted middle leg. Problem is still that jacket around the magnets. From possible jackets are only washers readily available. Do you or somebody else know what sort of steel are they made of? It would be nice to simulate it in FEMM to check behaviour.

regards,
Marcel
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: MeggerMan on August 17, 2006, 12:21:59 PM
Hi Marcel,
I went through all of the steel types last night and found one slightly higher than yours, I think it was 248mT excess, I will post the csv files when I get home.
I modified the lua script to create a csv file that can be loaded direct into excel with some titles, so it is easier to see the results.

The right materials are very important, some old washers made from iron will not work. Femm will show you that.
The laminations need to follow the flux flow, stacked washers are a hard path to follow.

I know making a core to fit around the magnets is going to be a nightmare.
The centre limb will need to "V" notch into the top yoke for a start as the flux lines need to follow the grain of the steel.
Also the outer legs need a 45 Deg mitre into the top yoke too, again so the flux lines can follow the steel grain.
On top of all this, the joints need to overlap, so you also need a steplap.

You have basically got to make a one phase transformer with a cylinder hole in the centre limb to take the magnet.


JackH,
Can I ask how you cut the hole in the laminations to fit the magnet into?
Or did you cut each lamination by hand?

Regards

Rob

Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: wizkycho on August 17, 2006, 03:18:47 PM
-> Jack
Congratulations. 100% is already quite an achievement meaning losses are overcomed. Is there a plan to do also some press release? Maybe media will be listening with motor independently verified. I wish you success with the next important test.

-> Rob
Was playing with your implementation of Hilden-Brand transformer (I had to give it a name :) and tried different materials. For example using M47 steel gives excess flux of 237mT with current 0.014. It is interesting because M-47 has higher losses (if I'm correct) than M-19.
Attached is adapted scheme and text output from lua script.

I thinking to implement this on a real transformer body with cutted middle leg. Problem is still that jacket around the magnets. From possible jackets are only washers readily available. Do you or somebody else know what sort of steel are they made of? It would be nice to simulate it in FEMM to check behaviour.

regards,
Marcel


hi Marcel !

Laminations or granulated material are must in every part of these magnetic switching devices.

In solid setups when field is changing current is induced in every conductible part of device that is perpendicular to changable (strenght or direction) magnetic field. Just like it would in common coil. Unlike common coil which is not shorted, solid metal respresents short circuit so very high currents are induced that are creating strong opposing field that results in losses and requirements for more input... Can we use these eddy currents somehow ?

granulated material (bonded (with glue...) powdered metal) has lower saturation 0.6 - 0.7 T and to low permeability. Trafo Iron laminats 96%Fe 4%Si that you are going to use are good choice but my gosh "machining"... this material is just keep on running away. Maybe the best material for now is Vanadium Permedur 49%Fe 49%Co 2%V which is little
more expensive has much better magnetic characteristics and is easily machined...it can be bought as laminats.
going to buy some.

regards
Igor
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: MeggerMan on August 18, 2006, 02:00:54 PM
Hi Igor,
The simulation results for Vanadium Permedur came out negative, in that I could not get any flux excess for the valve.
I will post the graph showing the current and flux for each case (On/Off/Steel core/Air Core) so you can decide.
At the moment I think M-47 Silicon Steel is winning the race for the best material for a switch.

Hi JackH,

Thanks for the update on the construction ideas.
Are you now using 2" disk magnets in your latest motor?
How many magnets for each valve?

I have been told that there is a way to get the valve to work without any steel at all, just using coils and magnets (air core). I will do some simulations to test this out.


Regards

Rob



Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: gyulasun on August 18, 2006, 02:29:01 PM
I have been told that there is a way to get the valve to work without any steel at all, just using coils and magnets (air core). I will do some simulations to test this out.
Regards,
Rob

Hi Rob,

Unless it is proprietary, would you describe how it is thought? Simply omit the iron jacket from the magnet? Very curious to learn  :)

Thanks
Gyula
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: MeggerMan on August 19, 2006, 01:35:50 AM
Hi JackH,
Yes, an air core was a daft idea,simulation show it could not possibly work as a switch.

OK back to steel choices, the best so far now is US Steel type 2 0.018" thick.
The results for this steel is amazing, an overall flux difference of 468mT with a coil current of 12mA.
Here is the graph showing the results for the On/Off and steel + air cores for comparison.
Notice how the flux for the steel core takes a lot more current to get going, but the magnet seems to kick the flux into life right away.

(http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m25/kingrs/USSteelType20.jpg)

Y axis = average flux density in outer leg in Tesla
X axis = coil current (2000 turns) in mA
BDiff (T)  = Mag On - Mag Off - Steel Core

The BDiff is to show the difference between the valve "on" state and the valve "off" state less the flux you would get from the same "On" current through a solid core of steel.
All measurements are taken as an average cross section flux in the centre of the outer leg.

See attach rar file that contains all the metals I have tested together with the Femm file plus the enhanced lua script to allow you to test a range of coil currents from 1mA to 31mA.
Nearly all the graphs peak at about 10mA anyway.

Regards

Rob
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: dingbat on August 19, 2006, 03:05:32 PM
Rob,

Could you please explain the graph in more detail?

I can see that the horizontal direction is increasing current (in the coil, I assume).
The vertical is Tesla

The "Bn Diff" appears to be the difference between the "PM On" and "Air" perhaps?

Is the "Air" graph flux vs current with the coil only? (no magnet, no steel jacket?)

Is the "Steel" graph flux vs current with the coil and steel jacket?

I assume that PM On is the complete valve - magnet, steel jacket, coil?

What is the PM off graph?

Where is the flux value taken?

(Perhaps if you referenced what diagram the graph refers to.)

Sorry for the seemingly dumb questions, but I would like to fully understand what your graph is showing.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: dingbat on August 19, 2006, 03:21:22 PM
i would also like to see what will happen if you put some other magnetic disturbances in the circuit.  for example place another magnet near the steel somewhere to see what happens.  i want to see what any opposing or assisting fields do to the system.  when you place a secondary coil on your device, it will create its own fields when current flows.

perhaps by placing a small magnet near where you would put an output coil you can see what the opposing field will do to the device.

i presume that adding a magnet anywhere in the system will modify the action of the valve thing.  this will give some idea of how the valve will work when power is drawn from a secondary coil.

will a magnet that tends to assist the valve flux cause the valve off state to have more flux?  will a magnet that tends to oppose the valve flux cause the valve on state to have less flux?  these are important issues because other magnetic fields will occur when you apply the valve to any non-static situation
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: MeggerMan on August 19, 2006, 10:00:42 PM
Hi Dingbat,
See amendments to my last post.
I did re-run the simulation with additional coils on the output limbs as you have suggested and it appears to allow the input current from 11mA for peak excess flux to 30ma for peak excess flux and the output current to be 120% to 160% of the input current. (2 x output coil at 60% of current in the input coil)
(http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m25/kingrs/Block_loaded2.jpg)

Y axis = flux density of outer leg in Teslas
X axis = input coil current 10's mA ie 3 = 30mA


The input at 30mA for one coil and the output for 2 coils at 60% = 18mA, leaves an excess flux density of 450mT.
It looks as if the greater the output load the higher the input can be before peak excess is reached, which is great but for the life of me does not make any sense?
The attached rar file contains the Femm file with two output coils and the lua script to cover the input/output current ranges.

Regards

Rob
 
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: dingbat on August 20, 2006, 02:48:30 AM
the increase in current to cause the full switching is what i expected, and i don't see anything good about it.

if the valve would work the same regardless of other fields it would be the silver bullet for sure.

the fact that it takes more current to switch on when another field is present is not good, i think.

if you reverse the opposing field so that it is assisting, does the off flux increase?  i think it will.  and the on current - Bn Diff peak - will drop becase the valve is already partially switched by the assisting field being present.

something very curious to me is the deviation in the PM on curve near the peak Bn Diff.

i am also having trouble understanding the greater flux value with the air core over the steel core - is this the sleeve around the magnet?  if so it makes some sense.  i guess that with the steel sleeve some of the flux is still shunting through the steel and not arriving at your output path.

isn't it odd how close the PM on curve is to the air curve after the switching has occurred?
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: MeggerMan on August 21, 2006, 12:15:11 AM
Hi,
I messed up the graphs for all the plots. Air should read steel and steel should read air.

I have re-done the previous post and removed the air core as this is not of any interest and really only confuses the plot.

The most important thing here is this is only a simulation and I exepect that things in the real world will look a little different.
Only plots of live data on real hardware will give anything worth considering.

Regards

Rob
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: wizkycho on August 21, 2006, 10:14:03 AM
hi all !

Coil wound directly round the magnet can be used
only if it is made of high mag. permeable high mag. saturation (Cu wire is niether) and isolated wire.
It allso has to have low resistance like Cu.
Magnet top and bottom (poles) allso must be covered with such material to bridge path from pole through coil
to another pole.

Igor
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: MT on August 26, 2006, 10:21:20 AM
Hi Rob,
It's bad, think I found problem with this transformator setup. I think it wont produce more electricity than you put in. Yesterday I tried again your last scheme from block3.rar. If you put all coils on the same current e.g. 0.01 in the outer leg will have ~ the same flux as when magnet is off. Yes we have more flux with same current comparing to steel core only but the same opposite current supresses all that extra flux.

I think it all has to do with non linearity magnetisation of material.

I hope you have some solution to this because I dont.

Marcel
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: MeggerMan on August 26, 2006, 03:19:41 PM
Hi Marcel,
Yes I have done that test too but I think that is not a fair test.
If you have an output coil with same current supplied, of course it will stop the flux flowing though it.
What I think you need to do is work out the induced voltage in the output coil, then add a specific load resistance onto it, and then work out the current that will hopefully be less than the input current.

Formula for induced voltage (I think):
Vind=N*Bm*Sa/dt

N= number of turns
Bm=change of flux densisty in Teslas
Sa=cross sectional area in meters sq.
dt=time interval in seconds

I am currently working on a motor design in Femm at the moment.
I think I have a idea of how JackH did his first 2 valve motor.
The reason for the rotor being so close the stator is that any air gap will require an increase in current, in the
input coil, to get the valve to switch. On a normal motor you can get away with a pretty large gap and it makes little difference to the torque output.

I am looking at doing a lua script for a motor to cover one rotation of the rotor and to output the torque (n/M) for each position as well as the input current required.
It should be possible to work out the mechanical output power Vs electrical input power.

Regards

Rob




 
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: MT on August 27, 2006, 01:06:09 AM
Thanks a lot for answer. I see serious gaps in mine understanding of electromagnetism. Still need to digest it but it looks there should be induced higher voltage as there is more change in flux. Less current can be assured with more ohms in load.
Anyway I'm planning to build two transformers both the same dimensions and number of turns. Only difference will be magnet inside middle leg.

Just thinking maybe it can be possible to use fully rectified 50Hz AC as input at right voltage. I mean rectified but not filtered with a condensator to get pulsing voltage at input. And hope trafo with magnet will magnify it. But there could be problems with remanent magnetism as magnetism dont get reversed and this could result in decreased difference in flux.

Also considering idea to not cover magnets in the middle leg. Just use as many silicon plates as is the depth of magnet. Jacket would be then only from left and right but not at front and back of magnets. Dont know what the effect would be but such trafo would I think copy simulated behaviour in 2D FEMM.

with kind regards,
Marcel
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: MeggerMan on August 27, 2006, 01:40:58 AM
Hi JackH,

OK, I have tried to simulate a motor but I cannot see how to get the flux path to flow through the rotor without breaking the two valves into two seperate segments.
The end result is a what looks like a figure "8".

(http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m25/kingrs/JackH2ValvePMM.jpg)

Attached is the femm file for the above with the results file as well (.ans).
Jack, can you throw me a bone here, I'm really struggling with how your two valve motor looks like.
The rotor/stator gap seems to be so critical to the valve working and hence torque, that the rotor needs to rub surfaces with the stator.

Also the femm software seems to give some very odd results (torque via weighted stress tensor) for the curved surfaces of the rotor and stator. If you specify different values for the arcs "Max. Seg Degrees" then the torque can jump from 5 n/M to 0.5n/M with just a change from 5 degress to 2 degrees.
The 2 degrees gives a smoother curve and takes a lot longer to process.


Regards

Rob
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: dingbat on August 30, 2006, 04:35:09 PM
i cant get my mind off that strange disturbance in the graph.  the "PM on" line - the way it flattens out near the peak of the "Bn Diff" line.

it seems like the kind of anomaly that would be required for peculiar behavior.  it is funny how the line becomes very close to the line without the magnet once it gets past the peak of the bn diff line.  clearly there is a rapidly diminishing return when you energise past the peak point.

what does this disturbance mean?  it is very strange to see when all other curves are smooth - to see such an quirky disturbance in that curve.

(http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m25/kingrs/Block_loaded2.jpg)
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: MeggerMan on August 31, 2006, 01:17:14 PM
Hi JackH,
Thank you for the feedback, I may need to wait until your patent comes out before I can look at simulating it and eventually building it.

At the moment I am looking at the solid state MEG/toroid idea again, some recent findings seem to have sprung up. Its all getting a bit interesting.

I'm a bit baffled by the idea that a wind farm would use one of your motors in a wind turbine narcel.
Surely if the motor runs at over-unity can they not scrap the wind turbine all together and just run it as a motor-generator setup.
Can I ask what company is doing this?

Regards

Rob
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: PaulLowrance on August 31, 2006, 05:35:13 PM
Hi Jack,

Congratulations on your invention. Looking forward to seeing it on the market. The wind mill company must be owned by a smart man or women!

Regards,
Paul Lowrance
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: MeggerMan on August 31, 2006, 05:47:33 PM
Hi Paul,
I heard on the grapevine that it was a chap called "Windy" Miller, in a small town called Trumpton.
Apparently he is expanding into alternate enegy.

Not sure if he will get any assistance from Pugh, Pugh or Barney-Mc Grew though.  ;)

Joking asside, I too cannot wait to see this in production and I wish Jack all the success with his fantastic invention.

Regards

Rob
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: supersam on September 05, 2006, 09:12:13 PM
havn't heard from you in awhile?  i hope the M.I.B. havn't gotten to you too?  give us a bone! what is going on?  we all are sitting on pins and nEttles waing to hear. good luck and let me know when you need some cash.

lol
sam
p.s. just wanted to keep you on top.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: JackH on September 06, 2006, 03:44:13 AM
Hello All,
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Liberty on September 06, 2006, 03:08:43 PM
Hello All,

Just a word to let you know that things are moving forward very fast.   In the process of building a bigger machine shop to build motors out of.   The wind mill application is starting to come togather very nice.    One of my new investers(banker) is in the process of trying to get a federial grant(10 mill) to startup a factory here for building motors and wind mills.

And at this time I haven't been visited by the M.I.B.  By installing this new motor into a wind mill so it will still produce power in low wind conditions I don't think we will be too much of a thret to anyone at this time.  At least I think anyway.

I had an electrical engineer from Goodyear Atomic come up to run some tests on the last motor I built, this motor was only at two thirds built.  In other words it only had two rotors/valves, a complete motor will have three rotors/valves. His tests showed it running at around 300% efficiency or better.  After that, He baught three shares of stock in the company, and at this time he is building an electronic controll for the next three rotor/valve prototype.  Hilden-Brand Energy.   I have also proven another thing about this motor, the bigger the magnets, the more power it puts out, and still runs on the same watts.

Thanks everyone for the best wishes.

Later,,,,,JackH


Great to hear that you are doing well Jack.  Congratulations on your motor and advancement.  Why not just hook a wind mill generator to your motor and forget the wind???

Liberty
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: mark australia on September 06, 2006, 04:15:36 PM
I am glad things are progressing with you Jack.
I was wondering liberty how your little project was comming along?
Mark
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: PaulLowrance on September 06, 2006, 04:34:37 PM
I agree it's good to hear some real work being done as I'm a believer in the JackH machine.

I wonder exactly what people mean by the defintion "MIB" that seems to be so popular. I know what MIB means, but are such comments meant to be sarcastic?  IMHO any intelligent person could understand there are powerful people on Earth who are anti-spiritual and have no problems, morally, having someone killed. Long ago my eyes were opened by a lawyer who warned me that certain industries are controlled by wealthy people, which he termed "the mafia."

We can call it what ever we wish, MIB, Mafia, Boogieman, or whatever, but any intelligent person who's tasted the real big business world knows there are a certain percentage of dangerous and powerful people in the world. The safe way is to publish the research and get the work out in the public.

BTW, sure, it would be great if a machine was self-running, but second best option is to run the machine on say your home and watch the electric bills drop. This would be obvious if every month you switched from using the "free energy" machine to not using it. Do this for four or so months and it should be very apparent in ones electric bills.

Paul Lowrance
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: supersam on September 06, 2006, 05:45:34 PM
when i posted MIB IT WAS NOT MEANT TO BE SARCASTIC.  it was out of a genuine concern.  however it seems the MIB always get to someone. whether it is bull s*** or not nothing has ever hit the market.  maybe jack's device is for real and the MIB won't show up this time.  i'm ready to buy something that will help. even ready to pay too much for it right now. knowing that the cost will come down like any other tech.  think of what a antique hilden-brand motor might be worth in say 50 years. 

keep up the good work jack! thanks for the reply.  let me know when your ready to sell these. i don't care about ul listings or anything else.  great idea about hooking them up with wind power.  even solar can help. 

improving effeciency is the main goal of the whole thought.  anyway you can do it is GREAT!

please keep us posted there are alot of people watching this. 

keep safe and lol
sam


Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: PaulLowrance on September 06, 2006, 05:54:46 PM
Thanks supersam. Now I see what you mean by MIB; i.e., any powerful, selfish, precarious individual or group who's interest is to suppress any possible "free energy" research.

Paul Lowrance
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Liberty on September 06, 2006, 06:06:26 PM
I am glad things are progressing with you Jack.
I was wondering liberty how your little project was comming along?
Mark

Developments are going well so far.  No snags at all so far.  I have to take time out to do some outdoor work today, but I am about to start to build the modified Prototype I motor shortly.  I will learn how it performs best and proceed with the Prototype II which should have enough strength (hopefully) to better turn an alternator of some sort.  I would like it to be able to turn this windmill alternator that I have, but it is pretty "beefy" and hard to turn by hand, but it will produce power at a low RPM.  The modified Prototype I/II will employ a much more reliable method than what I was using on the very first device.  I have completed the design and testing on the that portion successfully yesterday.  I will see if the thing will self run somewhere along the line.  If so great, if not, it was fun trying...

Liberty

Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: MeggerMan on September 06, 2006, 06:24:46 PM
Hi Liberty,
Have you got some diagrams for the layout for your motor you can point me too?
I would like to do a femm model of it, if it is possible.

Even a photo of your prototype I will do.
Does it use the magnetic valve idea?
I look forward to seeing your results data, keep us posted on your progress.

Regards

Rob
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Liberty on September 06, 2006, 07:13:38 PM
Hi Liberty,
Have you got some diagrams for the layout for your motor you can point me too?
I would like to do a femm model of it, if it is possible.

Even a photo of your prototype I will do.
Does it use the magnetic valve idea?
I look forward to seeing your results data, keep us posted on your progress.

Regards

Rob


Hi Kingrs,

I have chosen to not make it all public at this time.  But I will say that it does not use a magnetic valve like Jack's motor or a transformer laminated core such as the Flynn design.  It uses permanent magnets and a small amount of power.

Sorry, but it is about the best I can do for now.  I am still figuring out what the device is going to be capable of doing.  It is still in development.  I've got to run now. 

Liberty
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: JackH on September 06, 2006, 09:54:20 PM
Hello Liberty,
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: MeggerMan on September 06, 2006, 11:11:26 PM
Hi JackH,
Just reading between the lines here,feel free to correct me.
I would guess that you have gone for a wind turbine assist motor as this will not draw attention to itself, wind turbine still turns, still generates power (although more than for the given wind speed) and everyone is happy.
No laws appear to have been broken, its good clean energy that everyone can buy from the grid.
Simple, no need for the oil people to worry as you would probably need to cover vast areas to generate enough power for the whole country.

Hi Liberty,
Sorry to hear that you cannot share your idea, you are such a tease....
Well please keep us up to date with your progress.



Regards

Rob
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: JackH on September 07, 2006, 04:38:06 AM
Hello kingrs,

Yep.

Later,,,,,JackH
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Liberty on September 07, 2006, 06:15:36 AM
Hi JackH,
Just reading between the lines here,feel free to correct me.
I would guess that you have gone for a wind turbine assist motor as this will not draw attention to itself, wind turbine still turns, still generates power (although more than for the given wind speed) and everyone is happy.
No laws appear to have been broken, its good clean energy that everyone can buy from the grid.
Simple, no need for the oil people to worry as you would probably need to cover vast areas to generate enough power for the whole country.

Hi Liberty,
Sorry to hear that you cannot share your idea, you are such a tease....
Well please keep us up to date with your progress.



Regards

Rob

Hi Kingrs,

I'm sorry about the secrecy.  I don't mean to be a tease.  I dislike having to do that personally.  The patent rules say that I can not have a public showing of the device explaining how it works (and it takes a long time to get a patent).  I don't make the rules, but I have to follow them if I want to have the option for a patent.
If I could say that I was the inventor and be rewarded for the idea with royalties, I would have no problem with sharing it.  But this is the system and how it operates and I must operate within these parameters.

Liberty
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: PaulLowrance on September 07, 2006, 03:50:48 PM
Liberty,

After you publish you have one year to patent. Nobody can claim your patent during that year. Or you can file for a quick, cheap, and easy provisional patent which gives you one year.


Sounds like the ignorant old school thugs have threatened Jack. If so then I wonder what they said.

Paul Lowrance
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: MeggerMan on September 11, 2006, 12:33:18 AM
Hi,
After looking at the Tom Bearden website I found the patent and came up with the following simulation in femm.
It works slightly different to the other designs I have done in that there is two input coils that are switched on alternatively.
From what can be seen in the patent the output coil creates some 1500v at 40mA peak, and with RMS taken into account the power appears to be 25W with about 10W input.
The core I have simulated is not the same but I could change it quite easily to match it exact.
The Tom Bearden design is as follows:

http://www.cheniere.org/references/MEG_Patent.pdf

The centre core PM is 40mm height, 25mm width and depth 38mm.
Input coils are 40 turns of 18 gauge copper wire.
Output coils are 450 turns of 18 gauge copper wire.
The core is 90mm hieght by 135mm wide and depth 70mm.
Switching frequency of 87.5 khz.
No mention of the PM material used.

From the text it says that this device produced up to 48Watts with only 14Watts input and at each stage it was always over unity.
Sounds like you cannot fail with this design.

(http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m25/kingrs/megv1-1.jpg)
(http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m25/kingrs/megv1-2.jpg)

Something unrelated, a water ionizer that I have been building as a health drink, needs a complete re-design as the current density at 12volts is not high enough to charge the water after 7 hours solid:
(http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m25/kingrs/DSCN4718.jpg)

More pics here: http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m25/kingrs

Regards

Rob

Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: PaulLowrance on September 11, 2006, 07:45:02 AM
Sterling has created a nice page for those who would like to publish at no cost:

http://peswiki.com/index.php/Tools:Documenting_Prior_Art

Paul Lowrance
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: dingbat on October 03, 2006, 03:09:09 PM
JackH - any test results to report?  you posted a long time ago that you are having independent tests done on your motors.  did you get any results?  when can i buy a windmill with your motor? any news?
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: PaulLowrance on October 03, 2006, 06:33:07 PM
Hi kingrs,

I don't know how I could have possibly missed your post.  I want to congratulate you on IMHO choosing one of the best possible designs for "free energy," the MEG.

Naudin has successfully replicated the MEG. See ->

http://jnaudin.free.fr/meg/megv21.htm
http://jnaudin.free.fr/meg/megv2.htm
http://jnaudin.free.fr/meg/megv1.htm
http://jnaudin.free.fr/meg/meg.htm

I have some very important tips if you are going to verify Naudin's results ->

1. Please use the Metglass core.

That's it, lol!  If you follow Naudin's exact Metglas MEG design then you should succeed. I believe it is very difficult, if next to impossible to succeed with the iron core MEG design. I can point out direct errors in Naudin's scope interpretations regarding the power output of his silicon gain size iron core MEG designs. Although, it is very clear that Naudin's Metglas version generates free energy after studying in great detail his scope pictures. The current and voltage scope pictures do not lie!  Please see my wiki project for some more details what exactly is happening, unless I have made a mistake in my conventional science.

http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:MEMM

It is important that you follow Naudin's designs exactly, even the way he winds his coils, if possible. It is important that you arrive at the same distribute capacitance in Naudin's copper windings, etc.

Here's some more info why you need a core such as the Metaglass Naudin later used.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,1565.msg13531/topicseen.html#msg13531


Kind regards,
Paul Lowrance
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: MeggerMan on October 03, 2006, 11:26:00 PM
Hi Paul,
Yes, I was wondering when someone was going to comment on the simulation I did nearly 4 weeks ago.
I can get hold of the metaglass coated silicon steel as we use the stuff at work to build large transformers weighting hundreds of tonnes.
I have been promised some off-cuts that I can use for this project.
I notice that Jean-Louise Naudin has curved the strips to form the two U shapes. Very clever idea.
All that is needed then is to cut/grind the two mating surfaces.
He says he managed over-unity yet he could not close the loop, surely he should still be working on this if it looks so promising, as this was 6 years ago.

You mentioned in your wiki page about switching frequency in the UHF range, I would have thought that a frequency over a couple of hundred hertz would exceed the switching speed of the silicon steel but you may be able to put me right on that.


Regards

Rob
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: JackH on October 04, 2006, 05:09:34 AM
Hello dingbat,
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: PaulLowrance on October 04, 2006, 05:17:41 AM
That sounds like great news JackH!

Regards,
Paul Lowrance
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: PaulLowrance on October 04, 2006, 05:30:08 AM
Hi kingrs,

Are you sure Metglass is made of silicon steel?  I think this is the core Naudin used:

Meglas POWERLITE? C-Cores
http://www.metglas.com/products/page5_1_6_2_1.asp

These cores are tape wound so it would be bad idea to cut them as that would electrically short that part. Are you referring to the rounded edges? They might already come rounded, but not sure. From the picture at the above site it looks kind rounded.

If you scroll down on Naudin's web page he shows a pic of his Metglas powerlite:
http://jnaudin.free.fr/meg/megv21.htm

I'm not sure why Naudin stopped working on the MEG. I think he simply gave up on trying to close the loop and was getting nowhere.

The UHF range mentioned on my wiki are as you suspect, almost entirely absorbed by the core material. Cores are usually very resistive at those frequencies, but we must note this is an entirely different case because the entire radiation is caused within the core, not outside. I've ran electromagnetic simulations and found to no surprise that when the electron flips occur magnetic field is shorted. You can also see this in FEMM. A way of seeing this on a macro scale is to take a PM and short it out with say iron so the magnetic lines for the most part do not escape. Now imagine the same PM except completely submersed in iron. In short, the radiation caused within the core is shorted out and easily absorbed. The electromagnetic simulation program I used demonstrated that the higher the permeability the less radiation escapes. This is akin to light trying to escape a denser medium; i.e., it just internally reflects. Also there are other reasons why nearly all the radiation is absorbed.

The UHF frequencies caused by electron flips in magnetic materials is pretty well documented. IBM has dealt with them for decades. MEMM uses numerous techniques of extracting these ultra high frequencies. Although in materials such as Metglas and Iron the MCE radiation is typically a lot lower.

Regards,
Paul Lowrance
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: energyman8 on October 04, 2006, 09:15:04 AM
You Rock Jack!

God bless and good luck to your Buckeyes when Notre Dame comes to town!  8)
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: dingbat on October 04, 2006, 02:37:41 PM
Quote
"I had a retired electrical engineer from Goodyear Atomic come and test the latest motor.  Tested very well."

did he put a number to "very well"????
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Liberty on October 04, 2006, 03:32:10 PM
Hello dingbat,

I had a retired electrical engineer from Goodyear Atomic come and test the latest motor.  Tested very well.  After the tests he bought three shares in the company.

The wind mill project will probably take six to eight months to get up and going.  At that time I'll tell everyone how they can buy one.  Takes time to setup a factory to build wind mills and motors.  The prototype wind mill motor is being built at this time.  The prototype is being built by Hilden-Brand Energy LLC.

Later,,,,JackH


Glad to hear things are going well for you Jack.  Hope to hear more regular updates from you in the future. 

Best wishes,

Liberty
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: MeggerMan on October 08, 2006, 01:57:42 PM
Hi Paul,
I perhaps should have checked the details on Metglass a bit further before I mentioned it.
I made an assumption you were referring to the thin glass coating that goes onto silicon steel laminate.

I have looked at the products in your links and I will contact the company to see if they will offer to send me some sampes to evaluate.
I don't mind paying for the samples.
The saturation for the level for the material is extra-ordinary at over 1.5T so should work well with Neo magnets.

Regards

Rob
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: PaulLowrance on October 08, 2006, 05:50:27 PM
Hi kingrs,

Metglas 2605 for example is Fe80B20 (Iron and Boron).

Hey kingrs, should we coordinate this. I requested Metglas 2714A material, which is different than the one Naudin used. If you get the Metglas core Naudin used then would you be interested in swapping cores at a later date?

Also, I am wondering what would happen if both of us requested a sample at the same time. These are rare cores and they probably don't get too many sample requests. I'm just trying to think of your best chances of successfully getting a free core. I don't want to delay you in anyway, but do you think it might help if you slightly delay the request.  It would be great if we could both get a free sample core.

BTW, Do you live in the U.S.?

Regards,
Paul Lowrance
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: JackH on October 09, 2006, 03:42:48 AM
Hello PaulLowran
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: MeggerMan on October 09, 2006, 07:17:31 PM
Hi Paul,

I will just request a sample of the largest cores using a variety of materials, one of which must match (or as close to) what JL Naudin used.
3 cores should be a good cross section.

I can hang off a week if you want but I don't think it will make much odds.
I live in the UK, so swapping cores in the post will mean using surface post, rusty old tub across the Atlantic.

Do you think that this design has a chance  of working out?
What sort of magnets should be used?


Regards

Rob
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: PaulLowrance on October 09, 2006, 10:10:35 PM
JackH,
I think you're correct, as other people have told me the same thing in private message.  Hopefully with some lucky, cross my fingers, I can pull this off.  ...  That's pretty bad they sent you a broken core. How do they expect to run a business that way?


Rob,
Man I hope you get those cores, really. From what others have said Metglas won't ship any free samples outside the U.S.  I just replied to the guy at Metglas. He said the core I selected was not available. So I just requested the same core material Naudin used. We'll see what happens. He'll probably reply no later than tomorrow and I'll let you know.  IMHO they don't give out too many samples so I could use every bit of advantage. Just don't want them to get suspicious.
Will it work? Yes, most likely if you follow Naudin's exact design, but just as with Naudin's it will be self-running. It's very important that you follow Naudin's exact process of preparing the carbon resistor.

I have several untested designs that precisely show how to close the loop ... if I can just get a hold of an appropriate amorphous & nanocrystalline core.

Paul Lowrance
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: MeggerMan on October 10, 2006, 10:44:28 AM
Hi Paul,
The last update by J L Naudin was 2002, shame he did not continue.
I will contact the company about the samples, like I said, paying for a full size core does not worry me.
JLN used ceramic magnets and I wonder if he would have got different results by using neodimium magnets and foil/paper gap spacers to vary the flux transfer to the C core.
I know from my simulations that a magnet that saturates the core is no use at all, it needs to be just right.
One of the issues than JLN had was the stepping down of the high output voltage and frequency, certainly 3Kv is very high for most modern electronic components to handle.
One way may be to wind 50 coils and connect them in parallel to give say 60V and this can be rectified + de-rippled and used directly to power another MEG.

Regards

Rob
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: MeggerMan on October 10, 2006, 02:17:57 PM
Hi Paul,
Each of the two output coils produce a sinusoidal output, that may be out of phase with each other.
If they are in phase then you could couple the outputs together and use rectification to directly drive two more MEGs or one larger MEG.
That is provided the output voltage can be reduced to a managable level.
In effect you have 3 MEGs with the output from the 4 coils of the output stage.

The only issue I can see is that the input coils of the 2 MEGs in the output stage may cause some unwanted reaction to the driver stage.

If you keep to the same size MEGs it may be possible for them all to operate at the same frequency, JLN mentioned you need to tune the setup so the output produces a good sine wave with the maximum applitude.
Who knows, with 3 stages you could have a useable output from 4 MEGs.

Another thing that could be done would be to place the output resistors (insulated) into a 1L container of water in a polystyrene box and measure the temperature rise over a period of time and calculate the energy transfered in the form of heat.


Regards

Rob
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: MeggerMan on October 12, 2006, 02:23:52 PM
Hi Paul,
I read your peswiki page top to bottom last night and I must say it did get me thinking.

Re. MCE (Magnetocaloric effect) you say that if you change the flux field in certain materials then the temperature will rise or fall.
The bit that is puzzling me is you mention the field going from 1T to 0T and 0T to -1T.
I understood that the field strength has no + or - but it has direction, so it may go from 0T to 1T but not -ve.
A gauss meter will tell you +/- T or mT but can you this is telling you the field direction, if you turn the probe around it will read the opposite polarity.

That small point aside, it would be interesting if indeed the temperature was going up and down in the material so many thousands of times a second.

Regards

Rob

Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: PaulLowrance on October 12, 2006, 06:05:57 PM
Hi Rob,

I'll try to clarify. As you know it's the net field within the core that counts. So if the permeability is 100,000 and your apply 0.1 oersted (equates to 0.1 gauss) then the net field within the core would be 100000 * 0.1 = 10000 gauss (1 T).  That's our reference. If you reverse the field then it would be -1 T.

So in all magnetic materials indeed there are always temperature fluxations caused by MCE. Normally these temperature changes are 10's of thousands of a Celsius.  ... I'll create some images and describe this process at my peswiki project and post the link in an hour of so.  This will show exactly why smaller domains equate to higher PE.

Please refer to MEMM thread for a continuation of my reply. Since this is JackH's thread I don't want to disrespect his great work in anyway by distracting or posting other material here :)  ->

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,1565.msg14481.html#msg14481

Regards,
Paul Lowrance
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: JackH on October 17, 2006, 06:33:05 AM
Hello All,
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: gyulasun on October 17, 2006, 06:03:31 PM
Hi Jack,

I have not built a bifilar coil the size you have referred to but I did it in one layer and in smaller size some years ago.
And I did inductance measurements to find that I got at least 3 - 3.5  times as much self inductance
from the bifilar arrangement than from a non bifilar one. Let me show you a link because it confirms
pretty nicely what I found in my tinkering:
http://www.tesla-coil-builder.com/bifilar_electromagnet.htm

So the same length of wire is used on both nails. The two coils are connected in series, so that the end of (any) one coil is tied to the start of the other coil and the start of the first coil gives one connection and the end of the other coil gives the other connection, as you see in the nails' photo.

Now if you wish to do this in six layers then I think you could wind it first in two layers and figure out which endings or begginings of the second layer are to be connected to that of the first layers'.  If you could use an inductance meter to check the increase in self inductance, then you could decide how to connect the wires of the second layer to that of the first layer, and so on, always to get the increase in the self inductance (I mean by checking the connections right after the second layer is done you cannot fail later which direction you continue winding the parallel wires).

Recently I found an old patent where two coils are placed next to each other in a mirror image symmetrical relation on the same core and they are connected in parallel. Unfortunately I have had no time to check if this arrangement is any better in terms of inductance (hence flux) than a similar bifilar arrangement.  See US patent 4806834 and maybe the simplest to use this link to read it:
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4806834.pdf

The patent includes a kind of explanation on decreasing the time constant of this arrangement and
increasing the flux if compared to a single coil or a pair of coils in series within the same coil volume.
Nevertheless, if this arrangement is able to insure as much flux as your would-be bifilar six layer coil,
then it would be easier to construct.  It is sure that the time constant of the bifilar set up I refer to above
is higher than the set up in this patent due to the series connections of all the layers (DC copper
resistances add up).

Regards
Gyula
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: JackH on October 18, 2006, 03:44:16 AM
Hello Gyula,
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Gregory on October 19, 2006, 12:01:28 PM
Hello Jack,

I've never wound a bifilar coil but I remembered to these sites, maybe it can help a bit.

http://www.opensourceenergy.org/txtlstvw.aspx?LstID=1e5e11a7-7363-4eb5-891e-6a5e73ab8c46
http://www.magnetricity.com/NeoG/Bifilar.php
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bifilar_coil

There are more types of bifilar coils. I think you need a non-caduceus one.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Mica Busch on October 19, 2006, 01:53:19 PM
The two ways of winding a bifilar coil that I know of are:

Figure the length of wire you will need for your coil, now double it. Take that wire and fold it halfway and meet the open ends. then start winding from the bend like it was just the end of a wire, when you finish you will have two wires on one end versus one wire on both ends

or

Take two spools of wire, tape the ends together, and wind both wires as one. when done, solder or join appropriately the wires at one end.

Now, you could possibly wind two separate wires in a criss-crossing manner opposite each other on the core/spool, and mee one set of ends, but the above are what I have seen relating to Tesla's work.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: JackH on October 20, 2006, 06:55:41 AM
Thanks to all,
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: supersam on November 22, 2006, 05:27:51 AM
jack,

just wanted to wish you a happy holiday season.  also wondering how your patent prcoess is coming along?  it will be the season ever when it is finally finished!

have you made further developments on your technologie with the use of bifilar windings?  i have been doing some interesting research on the steven mark sights and there are a lot of interesting things i am finding from various inputs on the bifilar windings.

wish you the best,
sam

ps: stay on top you deserve it!
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: JackH on November 23, 2006, 07:05:18 AM
Hello sam,

Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Gregory on November 23, 2006, 11:27:53 PM
Hello Jack,

It is very very good to hear your great news! What a monster machine!  ;D
200 watts and 18-24 hundred pounds of pull per valve! Just incredible.

I suspect if you won't get a self-runner of this type, then no one will. We all are looking for the greatest moment, and waiting for your results and demostration.

Wish you all the bests, and good work,
Greg
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: ktm_2000 on December 18, 2006, 04:51:29 PM
Any updates on the motor Jack??
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: JackH on December 20, 2006, 05:52:28 AM
ktm_2000,

Still working on it.   This is such a huge motor that it will take me a couple months to build.   I hope to have it completed some time in late Jan. of 2007.

I'll post it as soon as it is completed and tested.

Later,,,,Jack W Hildenbrand
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: JackH on January 09, 2007, 02:37:13 AM
Hello All,

Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Liberty on January 09, 2007, 04:46:19 AM
Hello All,

Just thought I would post some pictures of the new Hilden-Brand motor in it's current stage.   This motor is 29" long by 17" high.  This is the first three valve motor I have built.   Each rotor should have over 1900 lbs of magnetic pull on it.  As to my calculations it should run on not over 400 Watts, and produce around 4 to 5 HP.  Hope to have it finished up in about three weeks.

Later,,,,Jack W Hildenbrand



Nice looking motor Jack.  It sure shines.  Would you have a video of it running an alternator?

Hope things are well with you.

Liberty
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: JackH on January 09, 2007, 05:12:48 AM
Hello Liberty
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Liberty on January 09, 2007, 06:28:39 AM
Hello Liberty

When the motor is finished within the next three weeks I will have a video of it self running,  and doing work.  I hope.

This motor has never run yet, my calculations tell me it will, however I cannot gerante anything.

Later,,,,,,,,,Jack W Hildenbrand


Wish you the best on your new motor and video.  Best wishes on the self runner attempt.  It's not an easy task to accomplish, may it go well for you.

Liberty
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: CLaNZeR on January 09, 2007, 10:54:53 PM
Hello All,

Just thought I would post some pictures of the new Hilden-Brand motor in it's current stage.   This motor is 29" long by 17" high.  This is the first three valve motor I have built.   Each rotor should have over 1900 lbs of magnetic pull on it.  As to my calculations it should run on not over 400 Watts, and produce around 4 to 5 HP.  Hope to have it finished up in about three weeks.

Later,,,,Jack W Hildenbrand



Excellent Jack

That looks damm sweet.

Good luck with the experiments and keep us all informed.

Regards

Sean.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Nali2001 on January 09, 2007, 11:49:42 PM
Hi Jack, great work!
How is the patent coming along? Anything public for us to read yet?
Thanks!
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: gaby de wilde on January 28, 2007, 03:22:49 AM
I see this at the top of the thread :D

Quote
Topic: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor  (Read 22222 times)

I had drawn this.

http://gabydewilde.googlepages.com/hilden-brand-transformer
gabydewilde - hildenbrand transformer

In case the flux doesn't want to go true the coil I've 'designed' an oscillator by the same concept.  ;D

Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Honk on January 31, 2007, 09:52:02 PM
Hello All,

Just thought I would post some pictures of the new Hilden-Brand motor in it's current stage.   This motor is 29" long by 17" high.  This is the first three valve motor I have built.   Each rotor should have over 1900 lbs of magnetic pull on it.  As to my calculations it should run on not over 400 Watts, and produce around 4 to 5 HP.  Hope to have it finished up in about three weeks.

Later,,,,Jack W Hildenbrand



Excellent Jack

That looks damm sweet.

Good luck with the experiments and keep us all informed.

Regards

Sean.


Hi all.

I recently discovered the Hilden-Brand Motor and have been reading
all about it for the last couple of days.
The new 5Hp motor sounds great, but where can I see the pictures.
They were not attached to the original message, as what I could see?

Good luck with your Super Motor and the goal of Over Unity.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: JackH on February 01, 2007, 04:19:58 AM
Heres
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Dingus Mungus on February 01, 2007, 06:52:04 AM
 :o

Nice looking prototype...
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Honk on February 01, 2007, 09:08:32 AM
WOW... Very nice work, Jack.

I can clearly see the resemblance to a combustion engine.
It's very much like a 3 valve ICE and you could probably make it into a 6 valve
motor, if you felt like it.
Instead of firing of sparks to ignite the gas you fire of low energy but high power
magnetic pulses to attract the rotor.
Very genius. The Magnetic Valve is truly a super invention.

I look forward to read about your continued progress.
In particular when you hook up a good generator to the shaft and try to get
it self running. This would mean a paradigm shift in the world of science and you
would get recognized as the man who saved the world from oil dependence.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: pg46 on February 01, 2007, 09:29:42 AM
Wow! She's a beauty!

Real nice machining Jack. I'll look forward to seeing it run.

All The Best
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Honk on February 01, 2007, 11:00:56 PM
Hello again Jack.
Your motor is truly a wonderful invention and I wish you all the best. ;D
But I have some questions that I'd like to get answered if you feel like it.

1) You mentioned that you only had oriented silicon steel from transformers
   but you really needed not orirented steel to reach maximum efficiency.
   Quote" I have since found out that the silicon steel from transformers is
          oriented strand silicon steel laminate...and that motors constantly
          change north/south polarity and will not run if built with oriented
          strand silicon steel" End Quote.
   But isn't this wrong. Transformers must also change polarity or they wouldn't work.
   Maybe you just mixed up your thoughts when writing it down?


2) You told us that your lastest 4-5Hp motor will probably use 400W of input power.
   And it's using large powerful N48 neo magnets. The N48 magnet valve use 8 watts.
   If the valves just take 8W to turn on then why do you need 400W for your motor?
   I do understand that the motor will use somewhat more current when loaded down.
   But your earlier motors only increased the current by approx 40% when loaded.
   This would mean that you should be able to run your new 5Hp motor at a lot less
   power than 400 watts, or am I missing something here?

I not trying to get to nosy in your design plans, I'm just plain curious. ???

Best Regards / Honk
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: edo on February 01, 2007, 11:30:18 PM
Wow ... very nice work Jack ...

I sincerely look forward to your success because, especially in this "game", when you win we all win! :-)

edo
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: JackH on February 03, 2007, 03:47:35 AM
Hello Honk,
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: yorkshireminer on February 04, 2007, 07:41:18 PM
Dear Jack,
                 what a nice piece of work, it is nice to see that there are still people in this world that take an inordinate pride in craftsmanship. I have this sneaky feeling that you started work all those years ago in the heavy metal bashing industry in the maintenance section, and studied at night school. Enough of this idle speculation. What struck me most when I saw the drawings and read the explanation of your magnetic flux switch was the simplicity of it, always a good indication that it will work. I am intrigued to see how you rotor is built and have speculated that it might be possible to use your magnetic flux switches firing them by inducing a EMF in the coils surrounding them as the rotor passes the magnets in the stator, thus increasing the power of the machine still further. It is just a thought Jack. I have thought of one application that perhaps you had not thought of. I live in Holland where still a large proportion of the population commutes by bike. Perhaps a Hilden-Brand motor built into the back wheel with a generator built into the pedal crank to generate the electricity to drive the motor would take the E out of effort and the H out hard when peddling. It could make a Lance Armstrong out of all of us. Think of the Headlines 60 year old  American inventor wins the Tour de France. May I congratulate you once more on your beautiful piece of work and I am looking forward to you posting the results in this thread, hopefully with a video. I hope that you and your wife had an enjoyable week end break.


Deep Regards

Yorkshire Miner   

Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Nali2001 on February 04, 2007, 07:47:52 PM
nice idea but to generate like 200 watt on a bike still is A LOT of work. You'll be peddling like crazy
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Dingus Mungus on February 05, 2007, 01:34:58 AM
nice idea but to generate like 200 watt on a bike still is A LOT of work. You'll be peddling like crazy

I think the point he was making is that this device takes the input power (peddling) and multiplies it (torque at rear wheel). So no matter how hard you peddle the motor is always putting out more energy then you are. I would agree that would be an great way to apply a device like this. It would make commuting by bike that much easier for the world and depending on the power ratio achieved by refinement of the technology, who knows... Maybe a AC alternator on the front wheel could generate enough power to run the real wheel, meaning, no peddling at all. That is what overunity means in the long run. If the a device is indeed overunity all things are possible with enough time and research...
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: JackH on February 05, 2007, 05:41:24 PM
Hello All,


Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: acp on February 05, 2007, 05:55:04 PM
Hi Jack,

I tried to model your valve in FEMM 4.0,  I also modeled it with the magnet replaced with iron of the same dimensions, There was hardly a difference in force with or without the magnet in the valve.

I get the feeling this would not be so in a real life situation. You could machine a block of iron the same size as your magnet, replace it in the valve and see how much force it has with the same amount of power applied.

Lovely motors by the way, You are a real craftsman.

Albert
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: acp on February 05, 2007, 08:43:08 PM
Hi Jack,

Here are some images from FEMM of your valve, the first image is the valve with magnet
size 3 inches square, the iron side pieces are 3 inches by 1.5 inches. The rectangles either side of the iron side pieces represent the coil (10000 turns, 0.8 Amps, 35.6 Volts, 28.5 Watts). With magnet(NdFeB 40) the force on the side bar is 2985.5 Newtons with a 0.2 inch air gap.

(http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/9606/jackwithmagneteg4.gif)

The next pic is the valve with the magnet replaced with a piece of iron, same circuit properties, the force on the side bar is 2982.1 Newtons with 0.2 inch air gap.
(http://img244.imageshack.us/img244/4452/jackwithoutmagnetjo3.gif)





here is the valve with the circuit off.
(http://img459.imageshack.us/img459/762/jackwithmagnetnocurrenths1.gif)


It could be that I've missed something in the modelling of your valve(highly likely). Or FEMM simply can't model this kind of problem, I don't know.

best regards

Albert
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Honk on February 05, 2007, 08:54:36 PM
Great pictures.
I believe you should not have used 28.5 watts in your simulation.
It might "hide" the effect of the neomag when its released by 8 to 10 watts.
Try simulate it using lower wattage. Perhaps it will behave differently.

But most probably FEMM can't model this type of design, as you say.
A computer simulation is never better than the person who programed it.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: acp on February 05, 2007, 08:57:12 PM
Hi, I simply increased the wattage until all the flux lines from the magnet were directed to the side bar, decresing the wattage simply lets some of the flux escape down the iron sleeve. If you notice, the flux density is similar in the iron sleeve and the magnet.

Jack I believe is using befilar wound coils if I remember correctly, I don't know if thats possible in FEMM to simulate. At any rate bifilar coils would give same effect for less watts.

Edit.

Okay I tried it with 8 Watts. with magnet = 751 Newtons,
magnet replaced with iron = 748 Newtons.


I'm almost regreting posting the sims as I get the feeling this doesn't represent the real life situation at all.   


Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Honk on February 05, 2007, 09:10:14 PM
No, I don't think he is using Bifilar yet.
The 8 watts he's speaking of is from unifilar winding.
He did ask about bifilar windning a while ago, but he had to see if it could
help him in his design.

But he is using a completly sealed magnet jacket. Maybe this helps
the fluxlines to short out when not powered up?
The best way for Jack is to machine a piece of iron as replacement in his valve.
Just as you mentioned it. This will give him accurate results.

Myself I winded 1 Unifilar and 1 Bifilar coil and tested their strength at 1 Amp.
They used the same bobin and wire size and the same number of turns.
But the Bifilar coil was not stronger than the Unifilar. Strange!
I believe that the bifilar winding has to be done exactly as Tesla did it.
This meaning that you have to wind every dual layer turn on top of the last.
The best and easiest way to do  this is to use flat enamelled copper foil.
I intend to try this once I get some flat enamelled copper foil.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Honk on February 05, 2007, 09:49:56 PM
Hay I have a question.   I have a valve made out of a three inch magnet, now this valve will pickup and hold 3,524 lbs when inergized with only 10 Watts.  I have tested it at a feed store at 3,100 lbs.   It totally turns loose of the load when the power is turned off.

A quick question.
By 3,524 lbs do you mean heavy 3524 lbs or is it 3.524 light weight pounds?

I did a crude test at 10W using an old permanent magnet I got from an old TV as young.
The weight it could hold was approx 62 lbs.
You can see the stuff I used at the attached picture.

Regards / Honk
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: JackH on February 05, 2007, 10:30:47 PM
Hello Honk,
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Honk on February 05, 2007, 11:12:16 PM
But isn't this the wrong way to compare your magnet valve to a plain electro magnet?
A fair comparison should have a soild ironblock in the core.
Elseway we will not know the difference between your fine magnet valve and the plain electro magnet.
I thought the idea was to see the gain in your valve compaired to the best plain electro magnet.

Earlier you mentioned that N48 took 8 watts to equalize.
Is 10W for N48 the right number?

Last question but very interesting.
Why should a strong electromagnetic field de-energize the permanent magnet
when they are directed the same way? That does not make sense?
If this is the case then the magnets in your motors should get de-energized when you
load down your motors beyond the 10W the valve needs?
You told me earlier that more power was reguired by the valve when you run
your great motors at high loads. This should then have de-energized the valves.....
If the electro magnet field was reverse compaired to the magnet then I can
understand that the magnet would get de-energized. But not when being directed the same way. (Or am I wrong)
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: JackH on February 06, 2007, 01:21:34 AM
Hello Honk,
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: argona369 on February 06, 2007, 03:20:27 AM
 ::)
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: JackH on February 06, 2007, 03:40:21 AM
This is what I am tolking about.

All you need to do to check it out is run a test without the permanent magnet.  And then run a test with the permanent magnet.  Make sure that you use only 8 Watts of electricity or you will overpower the permanent magnet.

That's all for that.

Later,,,,,,Jack W Hildenbrand
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Ergo on February 06, 2007, 09:07:16 AM
I?ll take a whack at it.
Is what your saying is that you have a soft iron core
3? long with a coil at one end. On the other end you have a
Permanent magnet. The coil is energized in opposition
to the permanent magnetic field that is traveling through the
the soft iron core, and the ?working end is the
coil end of the soft iron core. Also there?s two
of these assembly?s  put together magnets touching.

I don't get it. It doesn't sound like the magnetic valve shown by the picture.
Could you please make a drawing to clarify?
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: acp on February 06, 2007, 11:27:14 AM
Hi Jack,  Thanks for the answer. I don't know if the sims are accurate, but it does show that the permanent magnet makes no difference to the strength of the valve, at least in the simulation. why bother with the magnet when you can use a piece of iron and get the same results?

I would be very interested to know the difference in attractive force when your valve has the permanent magnet replaced with an identical sized piece of iron. and the same power input. Would you be interested in doing that? This would prove that the sims are not accurate, and that the addition of the permanent magnet makes a difference.

regards

Albert
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: MeggerMan on February 06, 2007, 11:53:37 AM
Hi Albert,

Not sure what simulation you are using but everything I have done in Femm 4 proves it does as Jack has suggested.

(http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m25/kingrs/Femm4Hilden-BrandMagnetMotor.jpg)

Regards
Rob
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Honk on February 06, 2007, 12:59:33 PM
What you are doing is totally over powering the permanent magnet using 26 Watts. When you do that you are puting the north pool of the coil core in the same way the north pool of the permanent magnet is.  When you over power the coil core it will try to de-magnitize the permanent magnet.

Later,,,,,Jack W Hildenbrand

Thanks very much Jack. Very nice of you to take the time to explain it carefully for me.
Now I understand what you meant by de-magnetizing the inserted magnet. ;)
I imagined that the flux from the N48 magnet would continue to flow parallel to the
electro magnets flux even when the power was increased beyond 10W.
I thought this was how you could give your motors more current when loaded down at
the sacrifice of efficience when the magnets flux became lesser than the electro flux.
Your motor is more complicated then I originally thought and I bow deeply to the
effort you have invested in bringing us such wonderful technology.  ;D

Best Regards / Honk
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: acp on February 06, 2007, 01:20:27 PM
Hi Meggerman, Is your sim with current applied? if so, a lot of the flux is still being short circuited down the iron sleeve. For what purpose is the curved metal piece at the bottom? You say it works as Jack says, what force values did you get for your sim?
If you want to calculate force in FEMM, you must have an air gap in order to integrate. Also try using a finer resolution on the metal parts, this will give better results.



For me, I'm still confused about Jacks valve, In my simulation I adjusted the current so that the flux density was similar in the iron sleeve and the magnet, this means all of the flux will be used to attract the side piece, and none will be shortcircuited down the iron sleeve as when no current is applied. What I would find interesting is if jack would replace the magnet with a lump of iron the same size as the magnet ( it would be a pure electromagnet then) and see how much force that generates.  If it generates the same force then the magnet isn't doing anything. 



Best regards

Albert
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: JackH on February 06, 2007, 04:08:56 PM
Hello Albert,
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Liberty on February 06, 2007, 04:29:00 PM
Hello Jack,

Have you tried experimenting with different coil shapes and types? 

Here is an attempt at a picture to show you an idea that I wonder if you have considered?

                             ===coil
                             ===
                             === 
       |--------------------------------|
       |      Magnet valve jacket            | Laminated
       |                                             |Steel
       |--------------------------------|
                             ===
                             ===
                             ===coil

Coil not length of valve jacket but stacked up high (like tesla's bifilar coil, layered over small area of valve jacket) instead of the length of the valve jacket.  Wonder if this would reduce the coupling of back emf in coil while still allowing the magnetic valve to work?  Was thinking it might help reduce power input requirements to your motor during operation, if it still allows your magnet valve to work right? 

An alternative and maybe better idea would be to use two narrow high stacked tesla bifilar coils, one at each end of valve stacked high rather than a long solenoid coil shape.  A strategy to reduce back emf coupling into coil to help reduce motor input power required during operation. 
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: acp on February 06, 2007, 08:26:13 PM
Hi Jack,  For what it's worth, I did a few more simulations using FEMM, I really don't know if it's accurate or not, although I did manage to model Flynns idea successfully with FEMM which showed similar results to what people were getting in real life.

The new sims are using 8 Watts power in all cases. The side bar is as close to the magnet coil assembly as it will go in the program.


The first pic is using 8 Watts power to the coil with the magnet in place, You can see that the flux lines are denser through the magnet than through the iron sleeve, therefor the coil is not overloading the permanent magnet. 

Attractive force = 3008 Newtons

(http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/6830/withmagnetrq2.gif)





This second pic shows the same setup same power(8Watts to the coil), except the magnet has been replaced with a block of iron.

Attractive force = 3000 Newtons.

(http://img127.imageshack.us/img127/1120/withironbx1.gif)




This third pic shows how you described I should do the test, that is with no magnet and no iron to replace the magnet, same 8 Watts power to the coil as the other tests

Attractive force = 1990 Newtons

(http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/2581/withairnm8.gif)


You are right jack, that in comparison with the test with no magnet and no iron ( just the coil and iron sleeve) ther is less power than with the magnet in place.

What puzzles me though is that there is hardly a difference when you replace the magnet with the iron ( 8 Newtons difference), therefore in my eyes the magnet is superfluous. I am curious as to how this all adds up in real life as what I have done is just a computer simulation. I'm not trying to prove you wrong, I am genuinely interested.

It occured to  me that it would be very easy for you to machine a block of iron the same size as the magnet and run your holding test again, This also seems to be what you were asking advice about a few days ago (How much power would an electromagnet require to hold same amount as your valve etc.). I am just trying to help.

Best regards

Albert
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: MeggerMan on February 06, 2007, 09:24:28 PM
Hi Liberty,
The disc coil makes very little difference to the flux switching effect.
The simulation shows a very slight increase in flux density in the flux gate.

Standard arrangement with 15mA @ 0.1V
(http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m25/kingrs/Hildenbrand_valve_std.jpg)

Disc arrangement with 15mA @ 0.1V
(http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m25/kingrs/Hildenbrand_valve_disc.jpg)

Disc arrangement with no power
(http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m25/kingrs/Hildenbrand_valve_disc_NoPwr.jpg)
Regards
Rob
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: MeggerMan on February 06, 2007, 11:52:30 PM
Hi Albert,
Yes, I have just run a lot of simulations with a gap to measure the force (0.001 inch).


So yes you can get a difference in force but only with a very narrow gap and at low energy levels, no where near enough to saturate the core.
So in conclusion it looks like there is a lot of force there but only under certain conditions. As a lifting magnet it is ideal, but for use in a motor, you need a very clever design to complete the magnetic circuit.
This is what I believe Jack has but cannot tell us until his patent is complete.

Regards
Rob
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Liberty on February 06, 2007, 11:54:54 PM
Hi Meggerman,

Will your FEMM program calculate the back EMF in the magnet valve coil under motor operating conditions?  Or will it allow you to estimate the amount of back EMF percent difference between the two different shaped coils?  It would be interesting to see if the amount of back EMF is less with a narrow (tall) coil in the magnet valve, compared to a longer coil that goes the length of the magnet valve (solenoid coil).

Nice pics Meggerman!

Thought Jack might possibly benefit from this comparison? ::)
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: gyulasun on February 07, 2007, 12:10:53 AM
Hi Albert,

Thanks for your simulations and may I ask you to include a fourth picture of the same setup when there is no 8W input to the coil and the permanent magnet is in place?  (Just for completeness and please include the force also.)

You conclude that the permanent magnet is not needed. Well, if you compare your first picture with your third one, it clearly shows that without the magnet the force is much less than with it. And do NOT compare this to the second picture when you replaced the magnet with a similar sized iron core!
Why? Because with the iron core in place you created a magnetic path much more flux conductive than in any of the other cases: the iron core has got a permeability much higher than either the permanent magnet or the air, so you created an electromagnet with more iron core volume than in the other two cases, ok?
So for me the conclusion from your simulations is that Jack's valve adds up the fluxes of the electromagnet and that of the permanent magnet. 

Regards,
Gyula

Edit: And your puzzle is answered by the fact that the iron core's permeability "supplied" (when you replaced the magnet with it)  the lack of flux coming from the permanent magnet (which sounds strange I know but if you try changing the permeability of the iron core in the simulation then you can easily 'tune out' the 8 Newton force difference).
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Craigy on February 07, 2007, 12:37:55 AM
Jack ,

 i have been thinking about your valve, do you think it possible that you could activate it without the Electromagnet and the 8 watts input?

I am tempted to try an experiment on a small scale, with 1/4 inch neos encapsulated in steel, i am curious to know if you think that the valve could be activated via another, larger neo.?
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: JackH on February 07, 2007, 03:04:49 AM
Hello Craigy,
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: acp on February 07, 2007, 07:51:11 AM
Hi Gyulasun,

Quote
And do NOT compare this to the second picture when you replaced the magnet with a similar sized iron core!
Why? Because with the iron core in place you created a magnetic path much more flux conductive than in any of the other cases: the iron core has got a permeability much higher than either the permanent magnet or the air, so you created an electromagnet with more iron core volume than in the other two cases, ok?

Yes, but all we are interested in is if this valve has a use. Think about it, If we can build an electromagnet(using the same power to the coils as the valve) of the same dimensions as the valve  and get the same effect, the valve is not more efficient than an electromagnet. in which case overunity is highly unlikely.

In other words, imagine you have an electromagnet, and you remove a portion of the core and replace it with a magnet, and then find it functions exactly the same as before with no increase in efficiency or useability, why would you bother to insert the magnet.  What I'm interested in is, if what has been shown in the sims is also true in real life.

regards

Albert
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Honk on February 07, 2007, 10:15:49 AM
Hello guys.

How do you calculate the strength of the magnetic field in a coil?

Suppose you wind a coil 10 turns at 0.01 ohms resistance and run
31.6 amps through the coil which gives you 10 watts.
Will the magnetic field be just as strong as if you had a coil
with 1000 turns at 1 ohm and run 3.16 amps throung it = 10W

It is the same 10 watts but will the increased turns give stronger magnetic field?

I'm asking this because the low turn coil will be a low inductance coil,
which has greatly reduced delay time when activating the magnetic field.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: acp on February 07, 2007, 10:25:19 AM
Amp turns ( Amps*number of turns)defines how strong the field will be, so your first example gives 316 Amp turns and the second 3160 Amp turns, theoretically the second is 10 times stronger. Practically though there is an optimum for all these parameters, because the closeness of the turns to the core has an effect, the further away the turns the less effect, so simply increasing the number of turns doesn't work after a certain point.

regards

Albert
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Honk on February 07, 2007, 10:49:32 AM
Thank you very much for a fast and great answer.

Do you know how to wind a coil to achieve strong magnetic fields at low inductance?

There are numerous ways to wind coils, but which one is best when I want low
inductance but strong fields?
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Honk on February 07, 2007, 07:54:44 PM
Deleted....
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: gyulasun on February 07, 2007, 08:27:44 PM
Yes, but all we are interested in is if this valve has a use. Think about it, If we can build an electromagnet(using the same power to the coils as the valve) of the same dimensions as the valve  and get the same effect, the valve is not more efficient than an electromagnet. in which case overunity is highly unlikely.

Hi Albert,

Why cannot you understand that in Jack's valve the flux from the permanent magnet is added to the flux from the electromagnet? And if you accept the fact that Jack figured out how much input power is needed for the electromagnet in his valve to quasi double the flux of the built-in permanent magnet you realize that it is just about 8W input that is needed for him in that valve, considering the grade and size of his Neo magnet, the cross section of his full magnetic path etc.  Jack achieved this in practice and not by a 2-dimensional simulator, ok?  And if you wish to eliminate the permanent magnet from his valve then you simply build a normal electromagnet (being all the other data/dimentions are maintained) and you will never receive the double flux field in PRACTICE, ok?
So this valve is not about using a permanent magnet together with an electromagnet completely superfluously.


In other words, imagine you have an electromagnet, and you remove a portion of the core and replace it with a magnet, and then find it functions exactly the same as before with no increase in efficiency or useability, why would you bother to insert the magnet.  What I'm interested in is, if what has been shown in the sims is also true in real life.

Please read my previous letter to you from yesterday and try to understand it, no use if I repeat it again. You seem to ignore what I wrote or asked.
EVEN Your own simulations show an increase in force (your Picture 1 and 3) so the summing up of the two fluxes is justified by your simulator too. If you understand the flux additions done by the parallel path technique then the SAME happens in Jack's valve but in a completely different mechanical setup.

Regards

Gyula
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: JackH on February 07, 2007, 09:07:47 PM
Hello All,
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: acp on February 08, 2007, 10:22:24 AM
Hi gyulasun,


Quote
Why cannot you understand that in Jack's valve the flux from the permanent magnet is added to the flux from the electromagnet?

I do understand this. My point is that the same effect is achieved with a block of iron replacing the magnet( at least in the sims).



Quote
And if you wish to eliminate the permanent magnet from his valve then you simply build a normal electromagnet (being all the other data/dimentions are maintained) and you will never receive the double flux field in PRACTICE, ok?

Ah, are you so sure about this? the simulation shows exactly that in pic2( with the magnet replaced with a block of iron, and same coil and electric input), that is why I'm so interested if that is the case in real life.   Doesn't it bother you that a block of iron does the same job as the magnet? just build the valve with a block of iron instead of the magnet, after all, iron is cheaper than magnets,    oh, but then we would have a simple electromagnet that produces the same force from the same electro input then and not a magnetic valve........ when you look at it this way you can see that overunity is not going to be possible.

I look forward to seeing published results of an independent test of Jack's motor.



Thanks for taking the time to try and put your point across Gyula, however, I believe you and I think in very different ways, and until I see a test of the valve with the magnet replaced with a block of iron, then I think the idea is flawed.

regards

Albert
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Honk on February 08, 2007, 10:25:53 AM
Hi all and thank's ACP for your help last time.

I have another question.

If I want to wind a electromagnetic coil with an soft iron core that gives 1 Tesla
at a certain voltage how do I calculate the number of turns needed?

Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: gyulasun on February 08, 2007, 05:23:44 PM
....If I want to wind a electromagnetic coil with an soft iron core that gives 1 Tesla
at a certain voltage how do I calculate the number of turns needed?

Hi Honk,

There is a formula here:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/magnetic/elemag.html#c5  but it includes a 'misprint' I think. Correct formula is B=u*n*I  where u=k*uo and k=relative permeability of your core and uo=4*pi*10-7

You may find the normal solenoid formula here where it seems correct:
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/magnetic/solenoid.html#c3  and you may find the meanings of n too.

Regarding the wire diameter it is dictated by the current it is needed to carry, the space it occupies or how much room is available for the coil, surely a trade off between space and copper loss.

Regards
Gyula
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: gyulasun on February 08, 2007, 06:25:03 PM

I do understand this. My point is that the same effect is achieved with a block of iron replacing the magnet( at least in the sims). ?

Hi Albert,

Would you consider your simulation picture #3 in your Reply#295 (February 6, 2007, 07:26:13), you received 1990 Newton attractive force.
Now let's agree that in your simulation the effective cross section area of the iron sleeve (which constitutes the core of the electromagnet) is a definite number, let's call it as 'A' , ok? And consider this 'A' as the resultant or effective area which actually is present with its given permeability inside the coil. I guess you can easily figure out the actual value of 'A' to get, say for instance, 5.6cm2 but now for this talk the exact value the simulation dealt with is not important.

Now if you insert a block of iron into the empty part of the previous sleeve you have just increased manyfold the original 'A' effective cross section area of the sleeve and this is the ONLY explanation why you got 3000 Newton force in your picture #2!!!

Can you agree with this?  Because this is the point where you let yourself in, I think.

This is why I do not bother that your block of iron 'does the same job' as the permanent magnet, for it DOES IT WITH AN HIGHER CROSS SECTION AREA WHICH DOES COUNT IN THE RESULTANT FORCE OF AN ELECTROMAGNET!

And please include a picture #4 where you simulated the force in the same setup as in pictures 1-3 but there is no 8W input and the permanent magnet is included: this is the 3rd time I kindly ask you for this.

Regards

Gyula
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Ergo on February 08, 2007, 07:39:50 PM

I do understand this. My point is that the same effect is achieved with a block of iron replacing the magnet( at least in the sims). ?

Now if you insert a block of iron into the empty part of the previous sleeve you have just increased manyfold the original 'A' effective cross section area of the sleeve and this is the ONLY explanation why you got 3000 Newton force in your picture #2!!!

This is why I do not bother that your block of iron 'does the same job' as the permanent magnet, for it DOES IT WITH AN HIGHER CROSS SECTION AREA WHICH DOES COUNT IN THE RESULTANT FORCE OF AN ELECTROMAGNET!

Regards
Gyula

Albert got it right.

If replacing the magnet with a pice of iron in the real world, not FEMM, and the output
is the same as when using a magnet, then we can kiss Over Unity goodbye.
Because the iron magnet valve will have the same size properties as the one with
a magnet, and this tells us that we don't get extra energy from the magnet.
And if we don't get any extra energy then we can ditch this motor as the holy graal.

End of discussion.....

Unless we can test the valve in real world with a piece of iron replacing the magnet. Then we can see if there is any difference or not.
It's all about being able to make use of the energy from the magnet. No matter what.
If an electro magnet at the same size and shape as the magnetic valve gives the same output power then there is no way we get a self runner.

----------------------------------------------------
Bye the way, I'm a believer in Jacks motor and valve.
----------------------------------------------------
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: acp on February 08, 2007, 07:41:34 PM
Quote
this is the 3rd time I kindly ask you for this.

Hi Gyula, have a look at pic 3 on reply 278.


So is Jacks valve better than when the magnet is replaced with iron? Why is it better or more efficient? can you tell me that?
You say yourself that increasing the cross sectional area of the core increases the resultant force. So you have to sacrifice cross sectional area to make room for Jacks magnet.


The case as I see it is that you always have to sacrifice some cross sectional area of an electromagnet to fit in a magnet to turn it into Jacks valve. If the insertion of the magnet doesn't result in an increase of force, then it is pointless. just leave it as an electromagnet.
I'm not trying to bug you, I truly want to see a difference but unfortunately I don't.

regards

Albert
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: gyulasun on February 09, 2007, 12:51:22 AM
Quote
this is the 3rd time I kindly ask you for this.

Hi Gyula, have a look at pic 3 on reply 278.

Hi Albert and Ergo,

Albert, Thanks for this, I was aware of that picture but wanted to see the simulation with the same size gap (you used wider gap in reply 278 than in the latter 3 simulations) but now it does not matter if you also agree that there is no force in the gap at all in either case, right?

Quote
So is Jacks valve better than when the magnet is replaced with iron? Why is it better or more efficient? can you tell me that?
You say yourself that increasing the cross sectional area of the core increases the resultant force. So you have to sacrifice cross sectional area to make room for Jacks magnet.

Yes, Jack's valve is better than when the magnet is replaced with iron  because (as I explained) you actually make its cross sectional area bigger by filling up the space that was earlier occupied by the perm. magnet.

No, you do not have to sacrifice cross sectional area to make room for Jack's magnet, I did not mean that. I emphasized the effective area if you would read it again in my previous letter, and for me it means that if you could take out the sleeve and reshape it into a normal cylinder core of the same length the sleeve has had: this would mean an equivalent cross sectional area in my understanding. And if you increase this area with the cross sectional area of the magnet, you will naturally have a stronger electromagnet than with the sleeve's original cross sectional area. But then you cannot compare this latter result to that of the perm. magnet + electromagnet flux result because you must compare apple to apple.

Quote
The case as I see it is that you always have to sacrifice some cross sectional area of an electromagnet to fit in a magnet to turn it into Jacks valve. If the insertion of the magnet doesn't result in an increase of force, then it is pointless. just leave it as an electromagnet.

No, you do not have to sacrifice some cross sectional area of an electromagnet to fit in a magnet to turn it into Jack's valve.

Let's think from backwards and you could make simulations too.
Suppose we need 3200 N attractive force in Jack's valve.

Step 1: no perm. magnet, no sleeve shape core but a normal cylinder core i.e. we have to convert mathematically the cross sectional area of a sleeve of 1" ID and 2" OD (as Jack indicated in his drawing in reply 287) to be an equivalent area of a cylinder shape core with the same height or length. This way the core of the electromagnet will of course be thinner than the bars width they are attached to.

Step 2: apply an excitation current into the coil that is wound around this cylinder core till you receive 800 N  (yes, 800 N please) in the airgap and note the current or the input power to the coil.

Step 3: replace this equivalent cylinder shaped core with the sleeve from which we started out in step 1 and apply the same input power to get (more or less) the same 800 N force in the same airgap. I can only hope this will come out in the simulation without changing the input power too noticable (within 5-10% maybe?)

Step 4: insert the permanent magnet into the sleeve, apply the same input power into the electromagnet as in step 3 or 2 and now you will have to receive 4 times as much force i.e. 4*800=3200 N.

You may use your setup you used when reported simulations in your reply 295.

If Rob (MeggerMan) could also afford his time to run such simulations, it would be also great to see his results in the setups above.

Ergo, I hope you also understand now the problem of the cross sectional areas and maybe you see now it differently?

Regards

Gyula
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: JackH on February 09, 2007, 04:44:24 AM
Thanks gyulasun
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: acp on February 09, 2007, 07:55:01 AM
Step 5, replace magnet with iron, observe practically same result as step4.

If the valve behaves in the same way in real life (I hope it doesn't) as in the simulations then there is no chance of overunity with Jacks valve.

By the way, I think Honk made some very interesting experiments that could be applied to motors. Great work Honk.


regards

Albert

Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: gyulasun on February 09, 2007, 10:10:25 AM
Step 5, replace magnet with iron, observe practically same result as step4.

Albert, I hope you replace magnet with iron with physical sizes I kindly suggested.

Why are you not willing to consider the cross sectional area/mass/volume difference which is created by your replacement?  These factors do count in the performance of an electromagnet. There is no point to continue this series of arguments because you prefer ignoring my suggestions.  Debunking?

Regards

Gyula
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: acp on February 09, 2007, 10:43:14 AM
Hi Gyula, there really is no need to acuse me of debunking.  If it's not possible to raise a question (which in my opinion has not been answered) regarding a claim of free energy without being accused of debunking then I think we can end the discussion right here.

I do not see the need to perform anymore simulations as per your suggestions as I believe the simulations allready provided are sufficient.  I also believe your reasoning is flawed. If someone would perform the test in real life of the valve with the magnet replaced with the iron then we will know how it stands as being a feasible energy source.

Regards

Albert
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: gyulasun on February 09, 2007, 11:59:29 AM
Hi Gyula, there really is no need to acuse me of debunking.  If it's not possible to raise a question (which in my opinion has not been answered) regarding a claim of free energy without being accused of debunking then I think we can end the discussion right here.


Hi Albert, no, sorry for this, I did not mean that,  but I do mean you tend to ignore physical facts that change the original parameters of the electromagnet.

Of course you can always replace the magnet with iron but if you do so, my opinion is that then,  if you wish to compare correctly the force received with the core to that of the magnet, you have to increase the cross sectional area of the sleeve with the amount of that of the iron core (you inserted) towards the outside direction of the sleeve (to preserve the possibility of inserting again the same sized magnet into the sleeve for correct comparison). This may sound strange to you but I think this is where the point is if we wish to make justful comparison.

Why is my reasoning flawed?  Why is it wrong if I want electromagnets with equal cross sectional areas in the comparison first? 

Is it not a physical fact that the moment you insert iron core to fill up the empty hollow of the original sleeve core then you just create an electromagnet which is much stronger in itself, independently from the valve setup, than the electromagnet with the sleeve core and no permanent magnet involved in either case yet?

And why is it stronger? Because it contains more ferromagnetic material than the sleeve does, simply because you filled up the sleeve's so far magnetically empty volume with permeable core; you multiplied  the magnetic conduction of the air-filled inner volume of the sleeve  by permeability times of the iron core.

And in Jack's valve you wish to ignore this when comparing the performance thus gained to that of the magnet case.  I do not think this is a technically correct comparison if done your way, not correcting for the unequal cross sectional areas in the electromagnets.

Regards

Gyula
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Honk on February 09, 2007, 12:26:40 PM
Hello.

I have been wondering if 100% of the input power to the magnet valve
is being converted into a magnetic field.
Yesterday I did some calculations in this matter using this link
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/magnetic/solenoid.html#c3
Please see the attached picture.

It acctually turns out that it is possible to get very high flux in a
solenoid electro magnet with an iron core using just 7 to 8 watts.

I did calculations on a core that is 4cm long and has 654 turns of flat
enamelled copper wire with the iron permability of 200.
The flat wire is 0.035mm thick and 6.4mm wide. I used this size because I will
soon recieve it to a project I'm working on.
The calculated resistance of the 654 turns of copper wire is 7.35 ohms.
This magnet is totally realistic to make in real life.

It turns out that 7.35W of power at 1A to this coil will create 4.11 tesla.
Well, this is inside the center of the iron core and the total flux at the
ends of the solenoid is probably somewhat lower but still it gives me a
feeling that not all electricity is converted into flux in the magnetic Valve?

When lowering the permability parameter to 100 I get only half the flux.
I did lower it to simulate removing a portion (50%) of the core.
This indicates that removing iron will lower the efficiency in creating
electricity into magnetic flux.

If this is the case, then all the magnet does is replacing the missing
permability and this indicates that we will not get any overunity...
Sadly enough. :'(

I do hope I'm wrong on this because I really want an overunity motor. ;D

I have completed a Motorcontrol electronic schematic based on the on
the Coil Delay Remover I posted a couple of days ago.
It is acctually easier to implement than I thought.
It will be completly self adjusting and it will not consume any more
power than compaired to a conventional design.
It also recycles the energy from the back EMF to enhance the efficiency.

Later on, if Jacks Motor turns out good, I'll post the complete schematic here. 8)

/Honk
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: acp on February 09, 2007, 01:16:48 PM
Hi Honk,

Interesting work, I too hope that Jacks valve shows better performance than an electromagnet. At any rate, Jack is a great craftsman.

Is that solonoid calculator you posted a pic of from the web? If so would you post a link to it?

Thanks


That pic Jack posted of the mechanical version of his valve reminds me of magnetic stands for dial guages we used to use when I worked in industry. You could place it on a metal table and either push a small button or twist a knob as in Jacks version, and it would then be stuck with great force to the table. pushing the button the other way would enable you to release the entire magnetic force, in order to take the stand of the table again.  I can't remember how hard one had to press the button to activate the magnetic force ( the button in the blue square in the image)

(http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/5018/standrt6.jpg)

Regards

Albert
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Honk on February 09, 2007, 01:55:27 PM
Here it is.
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/magnetic/solenoid.html#c3
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Ergo on February 09, 2007, 03:42:51 PM
Why is my reasoning flawed?  Why is it wrong if I want electromagnets with equal cross sectional areas in the comparison first? 

Regards
Gyula

Because you really need to find out if there is any gain of power in Jack's valve.
If a valve with an iron core is equally as strong as the valve containing the magnet
at 10W then we don't make use of the energy within the magnet to get more power.

When we talk about over unity we need to test our inventions the scientifically way.
We must keep an open mind and try to find out where the extra energy is coming from.
And when we use the Iron Core Valve it doe's not occupate more space than the
original Electro Magnet Valve in Jack's motor.
I see the risk of fooling ourselfs that we get free energy. But if we can't prove that
Jack's valve acctually is better than an equally sized electro magnet at 10W then we
will not get any free energy from the magnet valve. We have just replaced the energy
with static energy from a magnet that takes the same 10W to release.
This means "no gain" of free energy, thus no self runner.

Hey I have a question.  I have a valve made out of a three inch magnet, now this valve will pickup and hold 3,524 lbs when inergized with only 10 Watts.  I have tested it at a feed store at 3,100 lbs.   It totally turns loose of the load when the power is turned off.

Now my question is.   If you were to wind an electrical coil to make an electric magnet(not using any permanent magnets), how much could you get 10 watts to pickup and hold?  You could wind the electro magnet any way you like.  Just how much will 10 Watts pickup and hold?

Thanks,,,,,,Later,,,,,Jack W Hildenbrand

Hi Jack.

You said I could wind the electro magnet any way I'd like.
Then I choose to wind it exactly as you have made your valve but I would use a solid
iron core. Could you please test this and report the result here, Jack. Please, Please!!!
Before we have tried it this way we will never get an end to this discussion.

Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: acp on February 09, 2007, 04:01:39 PM
I'll second that,
 
Please Jack, do as Ergo suggested and then we will really know if there is anything to be gained from your valve. This really is a fair test, in fact it's the only test. If your valve can hold more than the version with the magnet replaced with iron with same electrical input, then you really are onto something interesting.

Best regards

Albert
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: JackH on February 09, 2007, 06:20:05 PM
Hello Albert,
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Honk on February 09, 2007, 06:40:21 PM
Jihaaaaaaa...... Overunity here we come......Really good news, Jack. ;D

It seems like the simulation capacity of FEMM is flawed and can't calculate
real world situations where people try all things possible with magnetism.

This is in fact the best news so far regarding the Electro Magnetic Valve. ;D
Now we wait impatiently on the self runner video from you, Jack.
Nice Work..... :D

This means I can continue my Controller design for High Speed Hilden-Brand motors. ;)

Free Energy mmmmmmmmmmm ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: acp on February 09, 2007, 06:51:00 PM
Great Jack, Glad to hear your valve really is the business.

Best regards

Albert
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: MeggerMan on February 09, 2007, 08:07:22 PM
Hi Honk,
There is an "e" in pulse.
I do like your idea for reducing the flux build up time, fantastic.
 
Femm is not flawed, its the gap that causes the problem, you need no gap or a very tiny tiny gap.

Hi Jack,
Can you redo your above experiment, but this time place a 1mm sheet of plastic in between your field poles and the keeper.

I will re-run the simulation and see if I can get a very tiny gap.

Regards
Rob
 
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Honk on February 09, 2007, 08:58:31 PM
Thank you, I'm glad you like my Coil Booster idea.

All "puls" have an "e" by now. Sometimes my spelling get all wrong. ::)

Do you really think the air gap matters that much? The increased force from the valve
will always be there. It does not matter if the flux comes from electricity or a magnet.
Please see the graph I have attached. It show force at a distance at predefined flux.
This very useful magnet calculator is for free, but you need to register.
Follow this link. http://www.imstrading.com/cgi-bin/flux-graphs?page=fluxgraphs
I have used this tool before when I designed an ironless axial flux pancake motor.

As long as Jack can turn the flux on/off from the magnets then there is power
to be used for work. I'm actually planing a Hilden Brand motor of my own and
the gap in my design is so far only 0.2mm, but I can go as low as 0.1mm.
I believe it's possible to use this narrow gap, because I got a friend who is
working at a facility that cuts metal by laser. Their machines are pretty accurate.
I just draw the stuff I need in AutoCad and then he returns the metal pieces to me. ;D
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: MeggerMan on February 10, 2007, 02:18:15 AM
Hi Honk,
No it needs to be much closer than 1mm or maybe even 0.1mm.

The simulations I have done have a gap of 0.0127mm

Femm shows that for a neo magnet of 1" OD and 1" length, 200 turns of 0.8mm wire, and steel sleeve of 0.4" thick and pole pieces 1" square in cross section, the ideal current is 0.25A @ 0.044 V (about 10mW)


(http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m25/kingrs/valve_plot2.jpg)
(http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m25/kingrs/JackHValve0.jpg)
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: JackH on February 10, 2007, 02:57:29 AM
Hello Rob,

Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Honk on February 10, 2007, 09:41:37 AM
Another thing about this valve is that it will not become over unity untill you get up to a 2 in" permanent magnet.  I tryed it with 1 in" magnets and it was over unity but did not have any power to do things with.

All I know is that the bigger the magnet the more efficiency you will get.

Later,,,,,,JackH

Hi Jack.
Nice work. I look forward to see your 5HP motor in overunity action.

I have some questions if that's OK with you.

1) You have told us that the valve is not that efficient at high RPM.
    Can this be caused by the "Flux build up time" in the coil?
    It can be up to 50ms long & if the rotor spinns to fast it will miss the magnetic flux.

2) When you mention a 2" magnet, do you mean a cube at 2x2x2 inch?

3) I'm planning to build a Hilden Brand motor with 3 valves myself. I'll use N52 magnets.
    Do you think 12W is enough to equalize the coil to the magnet?

4) How do you estimate the number of turns in a coil to fit a certain size of magnet?

Best regards and good luck.
I will love to see your latest motor doing some heavy overunity work.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: MeggerMan on February 10, 2007, 10:06:23 AM
Hi Jack,
I can easily change the sim to a 2" magnet but I think the results will be the same.
This may be a factor to do with ideal current.
I do not think that the Femm simulation is showing anything like results you are seeing. Wether the permeability is wrong or something, I am not sure.

The masking tape represents a good gap and is probably larger than my simulation gap.

What I need to see is a graph of lifting force against current for the 1", 2" and 3" magnets versus iron cores.

Could you do a series of tests for me?
Try lifting a weight with different amounts of current in the coil.
Say from 1/10 of the current you used in your previous test and go up in steps of 1/10 of the current.
Then repeat it with an iron core instead of the magnet core.
I can then plot the results on a graph for you.
This way I can tell you exactly what the optimum current will be by looking at the results.

Regards
Rob
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Low-Q on February 10, 2007, 11:17:24 AM
Hello All,
Just would like to check in with you on the Hilden-Brand Magnet motors.   The URL below will show several pictures of motors that I have built.  Two of them are tested to produce over 120% efficiency.


http://www.keelynet.com/energy/hildenbrand.htm

However since these pictures were posted I have made several major break throughs.  I have found out that the valve that I invented werks much better at a low rpm.   I have built a motor that was especially built to operate at around 600 rpms.    This new motor has been tested on a prony brake and the voltage/current was monitored.   Input was 2.2 watts and the output was over 56 watts. At a pull down of around 200 rpm this motor exhibited over 500% efficiency.  :o    I think that means it to be over 400% over unity.   More will be posted about this motor in the future.

I am currently working on a much larger motor using eight 2" dia X 2" long N48 magnets.   This new motor should produce an exceptional low end torque at around 500 to 600 rpm.   I am hoping for around 1 hp with an input of around 68 watts.   Will post more info on this motor when tested, should take me around four weeks to build.  ???   

Later,,,,,JackH



If I understand you right, you can actually couple a generator to the motor shaft, and generate DC current in the motor coils. All you need to do is to manually start the rotation, and then, in theory, the motor will encrease RPM's infinetly?
Then you can get all power generated, beyond 100%, out from the generator, yust to maintain constant RPM, without putting anything in?

How do you then make the generator work only one way - as the motor itself will work as a generator as well?

Br.

Vidar
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Honk on February 10, 2007, 11:36:29 AM
You don't understand the valve, Vidar.

You don't get more RPM by increasing the voltage beyond the valves capacity.
The valve shall have a small amount of power to release 4 times greater force.
If you apply more power you just destroy the magnet.
When you control the valve the right way, then you can use the extra force
to get over unity from a motor.

The power applied from the generator must be controlled before feeding it
back to the motor, or else the valves could get to much power.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: JackH on February 11, 2007, 05:01:05 AM
Hello Honk,

Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Ergo on February 11, 2007, 08:55:46 AM
Excuse me for asking, but how could the motor in your picture
ever work any good without the iron jacket?
The magnet flux path will continue to pass through the rotor when the coil is turned off.
When made this way you must loose most of the efficiency. Why not the jacket?

And why do you need insulated Iron powder for the jacket?
You have used soft magnetic iron in your previous motors and they have worked fine.
In order to use Iron powder it must be compressed into the desired shape under very
hard heat and pressure. This is very difficult to accomplish without the right machines.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Honk on February 11, 2007, 09:45:36 AM
I'm curious to?  ???
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: acp on February 11, 2007, 10:10:38 AM
Maybe because there is an air gap between the laminated field pieces and the rotor,  and that there is no gap between electromagnet and the permanent magnet between the laminated field pieces. therefor with current off, magnetic flux will take the easiest path. I was allready thinking if it was really necessary to have the jacket around the permanent mag, and not the electromag and perm mag just as close as possible as in Jack's new arrangement.

What I'm curious about is where the magnets fit in in the rotor, Jacks drawing doesn't show them, ( he can't give it all away on a plate  for us  :) )

Regards

Albert
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: acp on February 11, 2007, 10:24:47 AM
Hi Honk,

That graph you showed a few posts ago of force to distance of a permanent mag seems strange, it seems to show a linear relationship between force and distance. This doesn't seem to be the case in real tests I've done with a permanent magnet. I think the relationship for permanent mag is force = inverse of distance squared( somebody correct me please if I'm wrong, at any rate I'm certain it isn't linear as the graph seems to show).  By the way the relationship for force to distance for an electromagnet drops off far quicker than for a permanent magnet. For example I have an electromagnet that can hold 135Lbs for 3 Watts of energy, but I can easily hold a steel plate 1 - 2 mm's with my fingers above it with it switched on. I think this wouldn't be possible with a permanent magnet that could hold the same amount.

Regards

Albert
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Honk on February 11, 2007, 12:09:31 PM
Hi Albert.

It does acctually drop off, but I had to increase the distance to 5mm to see it.
When playing around with the N50 magnets I got, they feel pretty much like the graph.
They do drop off, but it's not that noticable at close range.

By the way, did you use a piece of masking tape when you tested the electromagnet
at 135Lbs of lifting capacity. Else you will get a false reading, I think....?
An electromagnet have the strongest flux in the center of the iron core.
I believe this is why a magnet feels stronger. It has a more uniform flux over the surface.

If Jack doesn't need the valve to accomplish overtunity, then his patent will be obsolete. But I suspect that he will loose some flux through the rotor without
the valve because of the very tiny gap he got. Is is approx 0.1mm.
I to have noticed that there is not much room to accommodate a magnet below
the coil, but it is possible if he makes a flat electromagnet.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Honk on February 11, 2007, 12:53:42 PM
Hi.

I tried and tested the idea with the magnet outside an iron jacket.
To get accurate readings I used some silicon steel I got. I tried both ferrite and Neos.
I'm sorry to say that no matter how I tested it I could not get all the flux to take the
shortest path. As soon as I mounted a piece of silicon steel simulating the rotor some
of the flux from the magnet took that way. I tried gaps up to 1 mm.
I also tried different positions of the magnet between the rotor steel and iron core.
I believe Jack will use the valve on his new motor anyway, or else it will not be working at max efficiency.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: yorkshireminer on February 11, 2007, 10:54:08 PM
I'm curious to?  ???

Is Jack using pulsed DC or AC If he was using AC wouldn't he be changing the polarity of the coil core alernatively shorting the flux through the coil core on one phase of the cycle and then reinforcing it in the other phase of the cycle, and so into the Rotor.

Deep regards

Yorkshire miner
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Gregory on February 11, 2007, 11:43:10 PM
He uses DC pulses, as I know. It's on the diagram he uploaded.
Here: http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,833.280.html
And also here: http://peswiki.com/index.php/Director:Hilden-Brand_Electromagnet_Motor
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Honk on February 12, 2007, 12:07:06 AM
What I'm curious about is where the magnets fit in in the rotor, Jacks drawing doesn't show them, ( he can't give it all away on a plate  for us  :) )

I don't think he's using magnets. But he might have tried it in one of his motors.
Magnets in the rotor will continue to be attracted to the field poles when the valves
are turned of. This would decrease the efficiency of the motor.
In an ordinary motor the magnet field polarity is shifted and the rotor is pushed away
instead of being attracted to the magnets. But Hildens motor does not shift polarity.
But if he managed to use the valve principle in the rotor, then perhaps it could work.
Acctually I don't think he have any use of the valve in the rotor either.
It would force the silicon steel into heavy saturation and decrease the efficiency.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: JackH on February 12, 2007, 02:59:34 AM
Hello All,


Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Honk on February 12, 2007, 10:32:35 AM
Have you tried stacked non oriented silicon steel laminate for the magnet jacket?
Wouldn't it stop most of the electrical flow problems of the valve!?!?

Best regards / Honk
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: JackH on February 12, 2007, 11:47:26 PM
Hello Honk,
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: acp on February 13, 2007, 09:31:35 AM
hi Jack,

how about wrapping a long laminate around the magnet many times until you have the desired thickness of jacket? This is how toroidal transformer cores are made.

Best regards

Albert
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Honk on February 13, 2007, 11:19:15 AM
Here are three ways of wrapping the steel laminate along the magnet.
Personally I think Type 3 will provide the best flux return path.
But Type 2 is the easiest one to make by square cut steel laminates.
Which one of these three examples do you think is the best one, Jack?

I have also thought of Alberts torodial transformer idea.
One could take apart a torodial transformer and machine it's height to fit the magnet.
And then unwind the laminate layers to get the desired thickness.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: rotorhead on February 13, 2007, 03:58:13 PM
Jack,

Another alternative to using the Silicon Steel strips, like Honk suggests, might be to use Soft Iron wires. Due to the higher permeability of Soft Iron, the core would be lighter.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Honk on February 14, 2007, 04:04:12 PM
I believe Soft Iron wires will have to many airgaps that will prevent a good flux
return path. I will use large iron powder toroid cores of grade 26 and then precision mill
the valve I need from those. It's a pretty cheap way to make iron powder valves.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: IronHead on February 15, 2007, 12:51:18 AM
Has anyone tried a composite of pure iron powder say 100 mesh with epoxy pressed mold and cured under magnetic force to train the particles till fully cured?

I have done this with coil cores but nothing like this.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: JackH on February 15, 2007, 02:17:50 AM
Hello Honk,
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Rosphere on February 15, 2007, 02:45:00 AM
Has anyone tried a composite of pure iron powder say 100 mesh with epoxy pressed mold and cured under magnetic force to train the particles till fully cured?

I have done this with coil cores but nothing like this.

Almost.  I was using a #11 to chip the fully cured JB-Weld epoxy off the neo-magnets I was trying to reclaim from a failed magnet motor I had made a month before.  These little chips had an annoying habit of clinging to the magnet, making cleaning more difficult.

I was not surprised.  I noticed earlier that the uncured black epoxy, that I had placed on my disc, formed tiny little stalagmites as I brought the magnet closer to the glue to crush them.  Then, I noticed the JB-weld creeping up the sides of the magnet, from the bottom.  I screamed like a little girl and fainted.  :D

I suspect that there is iron in this epoxy.  I did not experiment with the chips to see if they had a magnetic alignment.  They may or may not have.  All I can honestly report is that they were attracted to the magnets after being chipped off.

Are you going somewhere with this?
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Honk on February 15, 2007, 08:34:55 AM
Now I need to be very carefull of what I say here.   My patents were supossed to be completed no later than late December of last year.   I have been told that two areas of the US military have been looking at my patent forms.  And I have been told that they may become classified material.   If that happens, I am out of business.  That is why I have been realeasing more and more of the materials I have at this site.

Later,,,,,JackH

Please continue to release your great free energy inventions.
Free speach and research should never be stopped.
Once you have planted the seed here, it will continue to grow all over the world.
And free energy for everyone will be unstoppable.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: tsakou on February 15, 2007, 06:52:42 PM

Now I need to be very carefull of what I say here.   My patents were supossed to be completed no later than late December of last year.   I have been told that two areas of the US military have been looking at my patent forms.  And I have neen told that they may become clasified material.   If that happins, I am out of business.  That is why I have been realeasing more and more of the materials I have at this site.


Later,,,,,JackH



I believe that open sourcing is much better than patents. If you try to make a buck out of it (with patents), someone will try to stop you. Anything put on the web stays forever because of easy copying. Good Luck with your efforts.


Greetings,

Tsakou
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Honk on February 15, 2007, 07:41:21 PM
Hi Jack.

Is it OK with you if I ask you some questions?

You have told us that your motors are more efficient at low RPM.
But how can you tell the RPM when planning a new motor of yours?
Is it the size of the motor or is it the number of field poles?

I hope you would like to share this info with us.

Regards / Honk
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: hartiberlin on February 15, 2007, 08:50:28 PM
Hi,
I wanted to add,
that just using an iron core versus using magnets is not the same thing.

The iron core has a much higher MuyR factor, so the inductance L of the
circuit is much higher and so the current needs a much longer time to build
up in this electromagnet and thus , it can not make fast RPMs,
cause then the magnetic flux is very low, cause it does not reach the
needed current level .

Otherwise a neodym magnet has a very low MuyR factor
so its inductance is low and thus the current can much faster rise
to the needed level and we can have a much faster RPM ( revolutions per minute
rotation speed) and thus more output torque power...

So the user, who claimed, one could just use an iron core is not right.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: JackH on February 16, 2007, 02:37:46 AM
Hello Honk,
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Honk on February 16, 2007, 08:54:21 AM
The iron core has a much higher MuyR factor, so the inductance L of the
circuit is much higher and so the current needs a much longer time to build
up in this electromagnet and thus , it can not make fast RPMs,
cause then the magnetic flux is very low, cause it does not reach the
needed current level .

But I'm planning to use a laminated silicon steel core. Not iron.
What do you think about the MuyR factor of non oriented silicon steel?

Otherwise a neodym magnet has a very low MuyR factor
so its inductance is low and thus the current can much faster rise
to the needed level and we can have a much faster RPM ( revolutions per minute
rotation speed) and thus more output torque power...

It's not possible to to use a plain magnet as core in this type of
motor, because the magnet valve does not shift flux polarity.
But an electro magnet valve is possible, but it will be surrounded
by silicon steel just to make it function right.
And this takes us back to my first question, the MuyR factor of silicon steel?
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: hartiberlin on February 16, 2007, 12:25:48 PM
Hi Honk,
how high is the MuyR factor of silicon steel ?
Probably in the 100000 , right?

The MuyR Factor of Neodym or Ferrite magnets are only in the
10 to 100s, when I remember correctly, so there will
be at least a faster factor of 100 to 1000 difference in the
current ampere buildup inside the coil around the magnet !
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: hartiberlin on February 16, 2007, 12:34:03 PM
@Jack,

too bad to hear the patent office is playing "tricks" with you.

Don?t we hear this always, if something really important wants to be
patented ?

That is why we over here seek for open source publishing,
so it can not get suppressed.

Jack, if you get your motor to work in selfrunning mode,
showing this will give you enough money for the rest of
your life, also if you will fully publish it all.

You can just life of your famousity then.

What have you already paid for patent attorneys and
patent fees ? Probably a few thousands US$ , right ?

You could have avoided all these costs... and
now don?t have any stress anymore...

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Nali2001 on February 16, 2007, 04:13:58 PM
I get the sense of cold bloodedness here, it looks likes this man?s invention is maybe going down the drain and only one or two seem to show interest. I know there is nothing really we can do about it. (Realistically) But for what its worth I do want to which Jack and the project all the best. My advice is to make a good documented report which could serve as a full replication plan so that you have all the vital information in one file. And in the God forbid moment that they do take the patent away. You can release the info file to the world whenever you feel like it.

All the best mate,
Hope it will all turn out well
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: lwh on February 16, 2007, 08:35:07 PM
Nali, I may be wrong, but I think there are a lot of people here quietly wishing Jack the best of luck while waiting to see what happens.

I myself agree with what's being said about going open source and having a back up plan in case the patent's stopped.

There are other things I'd like to say about the situation but this probably isn't the place.

Les.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: FredWalter on February 16, 2007, 09:46:20 PM
My patents were supossed to be completed no later than late December of last year.   I have been told that two areas of the US military have been looking at my patent forms.  And I have neen told that they may become clasified material.

If your patent becomes classified material then, if I understand the situation in the USA, you'll be prohibited by USA law from releasing more info on your motors.

You have to decide, how likely is this to happen? If you think it is likely to happen, then you have to decide, do you want this technology to go to your grave with you, or would you like it to be fully developed? If the latter, then you need to do whatever disclosing that you are willing to do, before it gets classified.

If your motor is everything that you say it is, then odds are that your patent will get classified.

I hope that either your patent isn't classified, or that you release more info before it does get classified. Between peak oil, and global warming, and climate change, the people of the world need technology like yours. I've been looking into electric cars, and your motor would be great, because it takes a lot less electricity to produce the same horsepower as a conventional electric motor.

BTW, I really like your motors - very nice machining.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: JackH on February 17, 2007, 12:32:17 AM
Hello All,
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Nali2001 on February 17, 2007, 02:03:06 AM
Well Jack one thing you could do when shi-t hits the fan is contact Dr. Steven Greer from the Disclosure Project.
http://www.disclosureproject.org/ (http://www.disclosureproject.org/)
and
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=Disclosure+Project (http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=Disclosure+Project)
They are always on the search for people with that kind of tech. The f.e department of the disclosure project is called "SEAS" thats "space energy access systems" http://www.seaspower.com/ (http://www.seaspower.com/)

Maybe someone here http://www.opensourceenergy.org (http://www.opensourceenergy.org) knows more.
Or perhaps contact Bedini or Peter Lindemann. They might have the right contacts for you.
If you want their mail address let me know...
All the best
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Nali2001 on February 17, 2007, 02:11:49 AM
maybe of use?
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/02/09/climate.prize.ap/index.html
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: hartiberlin on February 17, 2007, 03:05:14 AM


I also have a working gravity machine.  The one I have is only about 24In. in dia. and puts out enough power to lite severial tail lite bulbs from a car.  This gravity machine could be scalled up to easly power a house.   I have never gotten a patent on this thing.  It also could be turned loose to the public.  I have invested about $6000.00 in this project, how do I get that back if I go public.

Later,,,,,,Jack W Hildenbrand


Hi Jack,
if you really have a running gravity energy converter and can light up
a few light bulbs with it, that is indeed a real great invention too !
You would be the second Bessler !
(checkout www.besslerwheel.com)


You could easily get the 6000 US$ back,
if you would make a video or DVD of it and
sell this to a videocompany selling a DVD of it
or sell it yourself over here or via Ebay for instance.
Then you could also sell the plans how to build
this gravity machine.
This would probably bring lot more money, if you do it right
and get help from friends which would support you in taping the
video and writing and drawing the plans, etc...


Also you could apply for some Free Energy prize moneys.

So there are many possibilities how to earn money with it...
Also getting invited for paid talkshows
or just from people who donate money to you,
cause they liked what you did, etc...
you will just get  money...

The problem is, seeing is believing
and we have to see it, that it really works....

I guess, somebody who invents something like this,
will of course be famous, if he would like it or not...
as this would be the biggest invention since long time
and people want to know the guy who did it...

Regards, Stefan.


Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: yorkshireminer on February 17, 2007, 03:37:50 AM
Jack if the American Government suppresses your patent ( they have suppressed many patents before, I think they have about 3,000 patents suppressed at the present time) then I don't think that your investors  have any moral or legal claim on you. I don't think you could be sued for fraud. I would very carefully check that out before you make any of your discoveries public domain, as this could be a problem. I have taken the trouble to copy these remarks by George Wiseman of Eagle research about the problems of patenting and how he has overcome the problem. You curiosity has certainly lead you these last 25 years to make some discoveries that if they are proved correct will defiantly help mankind, and I am certain from your point of view hoped would give you a comfortable old age. I have followed the posting on this thread for several months now and I am convinced that you have made many friends around the world. Whether you can trust them is something else, but there must be a creative solution. It would be a tragedy if your discoveries were suppressed. I live over here in Europe but I think that if my memory serves me correctly that you live in Ohio. Didn't a couple of bicycles repairmen who lived in Ohio invent some sort of flying machine over 100 years ago. It would be sad if 25 years of work was suppressed. Anyway jack look after yourself and check out the comment below from George Wiseman, he seems to me to be a very Wiseman.   





To continue inventing practical energy solutions, I make money immediately by selling books and kits, instead of spending thousands of dollars and years of time getting a patent. Investing the time and money into getting a patent does not give any guarantee you'll make money. Selling books and product makes money immediately. Investing the time and money (that you would have spent acquiring a patent) into product development instead, will give you a much better chance of getting the product into the market place and give you money in your pocket. Not to say that patents aren't an applicable tool in some situations, they just aren't good for inventors in my situation. Nondisclosure agreements, trademarks and copyrights are inexpensive, fast, sufficient and reasonable protection. Several inventors have now seen what I've accomplished and are switching to my methods.

CAN YOU FIGHT?
A patent is only as good as your ability to fight for it. The patent office does not help you, except to provide a service to prove that you patented your device on a particular date. You fight your opponent in court at your own expense. Your chance of winning is not assured because there are many slippery ways around the patent laws. So you may have paid lots of money getting a patent, set your marketing back several years because of secrecy and STILL not be able to prevent competition. In fact, you spend even more money (and time) trying to defend the undefendable. Patents are an exceptionally bad idea for innovators with limited funds. Often Patents are 'stolen' and used without the innovators consent because the thief knows that the innovator does not have the money to take them to court.

PATENTS ARE TIME LIMITED
Patents are only good for about 20 years from date of filing (not issue). Patents need to be separately patented in every country or companies in another country can use your ideas freely, with no compensation to you. Copyrights are good for 50 years after the author's death; are automatically valid in over 100 countries; and cost only $20 to register. It makes sense to write books!
ADVANTAGES OF SHARING
By sharing our research publicly we are put in contact with like-minded people around the world, who also share their ideas. This takes years off the research time to develop the best answers in the world. Then we share the results with everyone by writing a book. Everybody benefits because each person that contributed gets the benefits of everyone else's contribution too. This has turned into an awesome tool for developing technologies quickly. Patent Free sharing and open cooperation are vital to developing and implementing energy alternatives in today's suppressive environment.
People who read our literature can build the technology themselves and participate in the free sharing of information. This brings the technology forward at a speed far faster than any previous method. Technology reaches the public in a practical form in months instead of decades. People who have our literature and do not build the technology become customers for those that do build the technology. Public education creates a market for the products of the innovation. Technology develops much faster when ideas are freely shared. Greed stunts the growth potential of a technology by using ideas from only one place. For example: we developed the Brown's Gas technology to a practical state, using ideas from all over the world. The technology continues to develop at an amazing rate because people are sharing their knowledge and experience. Now everyone gets the benefit of that cooperation.
BY-PASS "VESTED-INTEREST" SUPPRESSION
Everyone has heard about 'vested interest' buying out inventors, or the government seizing a patent in the interest of national security. These things DO happen to certain inventions (like free energy technologies) and it is made worse by patenting, because 'vested interest' knows that to qualify for a patent you haven't told anyone, so the idea stops right there. You should be aware that the Patent Office has a program, that anyone can subscribe to, which notifies the subscriber when anyone is trying to get a patent on the technology category they are interested in. You can bet 'vested interest' subscribes to this service. So the inventor notifies the sharks, that he's ready to be eaten, by filing for a patent. Note: It isn't that 'vested interest' can't make money with the new technology, it's just that it costs money to change and money that they've already invested in the old technology would be lost. They call it 'stranded investment'. So on the basis of finances you don't have free energy that's environmentally compatible and already exists. It's really as simple as that.

TRUE FREE MARKET
If someone can develop and sell inventions better than mine, they should do it. I sincerely believe in free market competition. Free market is what we used to have, it's what made America the greatest superpower on earth. It's what we've lost (due to suppression) and others have picked up, so America is losing ground FAST. I help people make money by providing products that help people save money, become more energy independent and save the earth's resources.
This 'marketing strategy' helps me become successful in implementing eco-friendly technologies because the people who make money want to make more money. Those people watch me closely and when I make another product or an improvement, it gets applied worldwide immediately. If you want to make money, a patent is a minor issue. Money is made by marketing the product. Those who have the best product and marketing will make the money. It also helps to be first and biggest. It also helps to be flexible, so you can change constantly to give customers the best product and service. This keeps you as the leader, keeping the market share of the competition limited.

PROTECTION BY PUBLIC DOMAIN
Ironically it has been my experience that making the information public domain actually protects me and those people who distribute my technology several ways:
? Industry is loath to tool up when they think someone (anyone) else may compete with them. They are afraid of free market after having been protected so long.
? Greedy thinking investors are loath to finance technology that is public domain. In spite of the fact that most patents are bypassed in one way or another anyway. This is OK for me, because I don't want the greedy thinking investors involved with technologies I'm working on. I want the abundance thinking investors.
? It becomes redundant for 'vested interest' to try to suppress a technology that has been spread around the world. By making knowledge public domain I'm spared 'suppression grief'. I may make only crumbs, having given the cake away, but those crumbs are all I need and I have something more important, peace of mind :)))
? Information that is public domain becomes forever unpatentable by anyone. Or rather, someone could get a patent because the patent office is inefficient that way, but it would be thrown out of court as a useless piece of paper as soon as it was proved that the information was public domain.
I've seen inventors patent ideas that were already patented (or ideas that are public domain) to encourage investors to participate in marketing their product. These patents are legal smoke and are no protection, because the industry either knows or can easily find out the truth. The one left without protection is the investor, and the inventor has actually committed fraud.
There is very little (of the technology that I work with) that has not already been patented and expired, making it public domain. Writing books is also an excellent way to make information public domain. No one can prevent use of this information by patenting.
PROTECTION BY INNOVATION
My ace in the hole is that I am always making my products better. This innovation is assisted by a worldwide volunteer organization. If someone starts selling my 'current' innovation, I can sell a better one shortly. Best free market :))))
In fact, my innovations develop so fast that by the time a book is written it is obsolete. It is still the best printed information in the world, it is just not the best I've got. So anyone who markets (as competion) my technology, will ALWAYS be behind. In fact, I encourage independent manufacture. Our time is best spent doing innovation, not manufacture and marketing. I also encourage manufacturers to join our information sharing cooperative. Those that share with us will be able to consult with us to get the latest and best information. Those who cooperate with our sharing techniques will be on the leading edge. This is now a well proven technique and is based on the solid fact that no one person or organization can think of all things. An organized, focused, self-interested group of brainpower will always proceed fastest. Greedy, secretive people who duplicate our technology without being part of our sharing cooperative are always going to be left behind. This has already happened several times. Greed has it's own way of thinking that automatically limits the potential of any greedy individual or organization.
INVEST IN FUTURE
Patents are useless when technology is developing so fast. Time and money are resources wasted as the patents become obsolete. If the time and money is spent on development and sharing of ideas, then the application develops past that stage and everyone benefits. By the time we write a book or manufacture a product, the technology has already grown past that point. Why spend time and money patenting something that is obsolete? Why patent a particular technology when we already have something better? If innovation is patented before we have a chance to make it public domain, then we just figure out a method that is better and make it public domain. This makes their patent obsolete. This is another reason why it is so counterproductive to patent technologies that are just developing. Others can simply make a change and produce the product anyway. In this case, the money and time spent on a patent is worse than wasted, because it could have been spent on product development and marketing.
MARKETING BY EDUCATION
All new technology needs to educate the public before it will be universally accepted. Writing books automatically makes a market for the product because people learn what the technology is and how it can benefit them. It also establishes us as an authority because we literally "wrote the book". The books start the free exchange of information that results in technology advancement and further books. Eventually books are written that allow people to build the projects themselves. This hands-on experimentation feedback quickly refines projects to make very practical applications. The books are again updated to give everyone the benefit of the best knowledge developed by free exchange of information. In the end, we follow up the books with working devices. The market has been created and the technology made practical by patent free philosophy. Most people do not have time or skills to build the projects themselves, so huge market opportunities are opened up. We either manufacture the products ourselves or help others manufacture. We help those that are willing to help us in return. Anyone who duplicates our technology without being part of our cooperative assists in promoting the legitimacy of the new technology. It is in their own self-interest to do so, because they have to educate to public the same way to sell the same technology.
PROSPERITY
 
Patent Free philosophy is based on abundance mentality. Abundance is all around us. We couldn't possibly take advantage of it all because it's like dipping a bucket of water out of the ocean, the hole fills with more water. Abundance takes many forms and presents many opportunities. The key is to learn to recognize and take advantage of the opportunities as they present themselves. Looking at Brown's Gas technology as an example. There is enough business for everyone. The market is wide open with opportunities on every side. We recognise trillions of dollars of potential with the market research we've already done. By not patenting, the technology grows freely, finding it's best applications without restriction. As the technology gets implemented, it increases productivity and creates employment. As ideas are shared, the technology develops and new applications are found. True abundance is shared by all people because the standard of living rises. Patent Free philosophy bypasses greed and suppression, allowing a huge increase in the growth of the technology. For example: Yull Brown spent nearly 30 years and over $25 million dollars trying to commercialize Brown's Gas using the 'patent' route. He spent a significant amount of the money (and his time) on patents and fighting patent infringements; he died penniless.
The technology is now developing so fast because we are using the opposite philosophy that Yull Brown used. Why keep using a philosophy that obviously didn't work? If you want a different result, change something.  Eagle-Research redeveloped the Brown's Gas technology from scratch in eight months time, with a total research budget of $6,000 per month. Yull Brown was so secretive that he was no help to us. Our machines were half the weight and size; took half the wattage to make the same volume of gas; operate quietly and have safety features not found on any previous designs. We were able to do this by openly cooperating with anyone who is interested in the technology. We finance the research by selling the information (as books) and by selling the world's best Brown's Gas watertorches. Abundance mentality states, 'help others and you help yourself'. This occurs directly by feedback from those you helped and indirectly because your contribution helped all of mankind and comes back to you through multiple blessings. In the Universe, every positive thought and action, no matter how small, makes a significant difference.
Check out our Non-Disclosure Page, for an option to patenting.

Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: JackH on February 17, 2007, 06:40:17 PM
To All,
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Nali2001 on February 17, 2007, 07:14:48 PM
Mate here I go telling you something strange:

What you could do is build the motors yourself and put them up for sale. No wait? hear me out. I know this is not the solution too all your problems. But it can be done. If you can build a system for like 4000dollar (material, magnets, wire, man-hour) I will tell you, you can sell these easily for like 8000 ok it will not be affordable for the common man yet but I think this could get things rolling. Sell 10 of these and you end up with 40.000 in your pocket. Sound like childish reasoning but it might be a start/solution. And mate even if they take the motor patent away. I?m sure you could come up with another magnetic gate based invention like a magnetic gated transformer or anything that is some bit different than your current patent, so it will be counted as a separated invention.
All the best?
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Nali2001 on February 17, 2007, 07:25:29 PM
Oh and just a thought,
I know this sounds negeative but you might want to secure the already build motors at a safe place when stuff really turns out nasty. Because I know an inventor who got into trouble with invertors and they kind of confiscated his devices also...

Hate to talk like this though...
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: lancaIV on February 17, 2007, 08:36:38 PM
Hello JackH,
when you or the company Hilden-Brand Energy LLC will declare bancruptcy,
all the received patent object rights will be automatically loosed !
That are the law and order conditions !

I think that your investors and the banker will not risk their investments !

What would be the financial need to resolve your actual problems,
or in other words to satisfy your investors with no lost/no win condition  ?

Sincerely
            de Lan?a

Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: idnick on February 17, 2007, 10:12:18 PM
Hi JackH,

You said:
"As for the gravity wheel I am keeping this part of the project a secret from my investers.  If I go bankrupsy I will have this to continue.  Thats why I havent done anything with it at this point."

Why not just open source it for reasons other members suggested ? Could get ya out of this mess. I can see ya don't want to try and patent it!!!

Dave
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: JackH on February 18, 2007, 02:10:46 AM
Hello Nali2001,
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: lancaIV on February 18, 2007, 03:46:17 AM
Dear JackH,
to resolve the development "barrier" moment,
we have to speak about +/- 100.000 US$ investment ,
to satisfy the "old" obligations,
am I right ?

If you want to get solution,send a message !
 
Sincerely
            de Lan?a

Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: FredWalter on February 18, 2007, 04:00:22 AM
I would just like to get back something in return.

Can you sell prototypes, before you have the patent? Something small, to minimize your costs, but that demonstrates the effect? I've seen other companies sell prototypes for very large sums of money. One example is: http://quasiturbine.promci.qc.ca/

It's too bad you couldn't file in another country - I looked into what it would cost for me to file in Canada, and if I correctly understood everything on the Canadian patent website, for $500-$1000 CDN, I could have a patent (provided that I did everything myself and did not involve a lawyer).
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: gaby de wilde on February 18, 2007, 04:41:12 AM
Make a film a book and a website.

Don't disclose anything until you have earned back some of your investment. Have some well known people confirm the apparatus really work on video. Then sell shares in your future engine company. You can hypothetically sell those shares for as long as you like. They will take you to court after some time but you have the hard evidence so that can never be complicated. When investors complain you make another video revealing a little bit of their investment. Energy companies will love this kind of marketing. Could take a lot of time. (look at searl)

But wasn't the real inventors game to make energy for free and sell that?

How long does it need to run before the magnet earns it-self back?


-----------
http://gabydewilde.googlepages.com/magnetmotor
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: JackH on February 18, 2007, 03:34:53 PM
Hello FredWalter,
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: IronHead on February 18, 2007, 03:41:49 PM
Just thought I might show you where I have gotten magnets this size for a good price.
Here is a 2"x2"
http://www.magnet4less.com/ND072.html
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: FredWalter on February 18, 2007, 04:41:34 PM
two inch magnets is $100.00 a piece

Would you be disclosing too much too much to tell us the exact dimensions, and strength rating, of the 2" magnets? Perhaps there is a less expensive source for these magnets.

Quote
It takes about $400.00 worth of aluminum to complete a motor

The last time I bought aluminum (a couple of years ago, from http://www.metalsupermarkets.ca), it cost me around $4 US/lb.

Your small motor uses 100lbs of aluminum?

Since you are at a standstill w.r.t. building your motors, have you looked into metal casting? Would aluminum from old lawn mower engines work for your purposes, if it was melted and cast into the right shape?

Quote
I am having trouble just paying the electric bill for the shop

Is there anything else that you could make, using that shop, that you could sell? Or are you only supposed to work on these motors in that shop (since the shop was paid for with investors money)?

Would you be disclosing too much, to tell us the size of the equipment in your shop? I'm curious what size equipment is required to make your motor.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Honk on February 18, 2007, 07:58:12 PM
Now the valve would take two of these two inch magnets, you need three valves to make a complete motor.  The chepest I can find the two inch magnets is $100.00 a pice.  You would need six of these magnets to build an overunity motor, that is $600.00 just in magnets.

Hey Jack.

Here is a cheap 2x2x1 inch N50 magnet, just 29.99 each.
http://www.magnet4less.com/NB080.html (http://www.magnet4less.com/NB080.html)
That will only come to $180 for 6 pcs. A lot cheaper than $600.

Regards / Honk
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Honk on February 18, 2007, 10:43:16 PM
However the valve I invented doesen't really go over unity untill you get up to about a two inch magnet.

The two inch motor I had tested was just a two valve motor, it had some coast time. However it still tested out to be two times overunity, with a third valve, I'm sure it would have done much better.

Hello again Jack. I'm sorry to hear about your financial problems.
I certainly hope you will solve it very soon.

By the way. You mention that it takes a 2 inch magnet to get overunity.
I understand by your earlier posts that a 2 inch magnet can deliver twice overunity
but this was when using a 2 valve motor with some coast time.
You estimated that a third valve would have delivered even better results.
But if I were to use smaller 1.65" N48 magnets in a Three Valve Motor, what kind of
efficiency can I expect?
Would I get no overtunity at all or will I at least get twice overtunity?
The overtunity ought to fade of when decreasing the magnet size, not totaly get lost.
What do you think of this Jack. Your'e the great man with the experience of this:D

Best Regards / Honk
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Nali2001 on February 19, 2007, 12:48:43 AM
Hi Jack,
Well one question howmany wire are you using mate...? You say you need like 300$ for the copper wire. Well the wire I always get is like 12$ a kilo (and that even is expensive) So I guess you'll be using a lot...?
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: JackH on February 19, 2007, 02:16:15 AM
Hello FredWalter,

Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: gaby de wilde on February 19, 2007, 03:11:58 AM
go here

http://www.ohiohills.com/domainhosting/

make a website
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: FredWalter on February 19, 2007, 02:11:19 PM
Everybody has answers but nobody has solutions.

Everybody has *questions*. We don't know enough about your motor to give you solutions. Various people have been trying to help find less expensive sources for your raw materials, but they've been guessing at what you need.

Quote
Yes I have a gravity wheel that really works, however I have spent over $6000.00 on putting it togather.

Wow, that's a lot of money. Does it produce usable amounts of energy?

With $6000 US I could put up a pretty big homemade windmill - see http://www.otherpower.com

Quote
I really hope all of you the best, but if you really want to get serious, you will need some money, and lots of it.

From the sounds of it, the largest part of your money went to a patent lawyer.

At this point, with your existing investors, and the patent lawyer bills, it looks like the only solution to your problems is money, and lots of it. If you had gone a different route... but that's hindsight speaking.

Good luck with it.

If this doesn't work out for you, please don't take this technology to your grave with you.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: hartiberlin on February 19, 2007, 02:31:53 PM
Jack,
post a video of your working gravity machine,
powering a few light bulbs and the money will
roll in with all the famousity it will generate !

100 % !

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Paul-R on February 19, 2007, 03:57:06 PM
Jack,
post a video of your working gravity machine,
powering a few light bulbs and the money will
roll in with all the famousity it will generate !
...along with considerable fame.

I don't know how much the BBC pay for a script
and all the working details for a 55 minute programme,
but it will be quite a lot. And the programme will be
sellable, duly dubbed, to many other countries:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/commissioning/tv/network/ecomm.shtml
Paul.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: rotorhead on February 19, 2007, 09:36:16 PM
JackH,

Please don't get too upset with folks here. They are just anxious (me too!). They have been waiting for a long time to see some successes. With recent announcements from Steorn, Perendev, and Mark Goldes, it makes it even worse. They all want to see something that actually works.

Many of the folks here have spent a lot of time trying to replicate other devices. None have had any notable success.

You happen to be in the spotlight because you are so close. The motor images you have posted look so nice! Lots of good workmanship went into them. And lots of hours, effort, and expense. We all wish things were going better for you.

Best of luck to you, no matter how you choose to deal with it.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Gregory on February 19, 2007, 09:54:03 PM
Hello Jack,

I have no real solution for your money deficit, but I have a few not too original idea... I add them here.

As others already said, to sell prototypes, or to demonstrate a working unit on video probably could work. I had other better or worse thoughts...

1. If every third member of this board would be willing to send just as least as 1$ (for example) to Jack, it would be probably enough to finish the new motor and test it, and publish the test results. Unfortunately, I think this option don't sound too good for different reasons for different people... But a bit of thought provoking... If you really want to help a bit... Not an elegant idea for sure, but really can work. Personally, I would be glad to do this if I were to know that others would do too.

2. Jack, maybe you can try to go cooperative with an University? If you can prove for some reliable professor / researcher / engineer that your motors have some special in them, then maybe they will be interested in help and research of the technology. I think good Universities have an amount of detached money for various researches. And they are also better than a bank sector type investor. If you were have an engineer friend at some University, it would be good to speak with him...

I think demonstration is one of the good solutions you still have Jack. To demonstrate your technology for the right (minded) people, who have the money & background. I'm sure, if your inventions really work, then a lot of people and various firms would be really interested to know about it. But you need someone who want to invest and work with you, not just know about it, right?

For a rough example, I think the engineers at Lexus would be interested in a new electromagnetic motor technology. And there are a lot of others... How to choose the right one and make a serious contact with them, I don't know. And what you can presume in a cooperative with someone is another question-mark. But cooperative with some good people/organization is what you need, I think. I just hope you will find the right people and a good solution.

Now, the guys will be probably angry with me... I am also very interested about your inventions, but the same time I don't think that simply give it all away on the internet is the best idea.

For all:

If you say or ask give it all away for somebody who have already worked years and have spent thousands of dollars on his own research, then you simply don?t respect him and his work. I agree with Jack, to make something work is not about building some cheap gadgets from usual goods on weekends. To make something really work is a hard task, it is not like just a hobby, it is much more a profession I think. A lot of hard (mental and physical) work when you do it all by yourself. First you need very good & precise machining tools, and second money. This is why I don?t build a test models every month. I have ideas but do not have the necessary things to try them out. Sadly, I feel that messing around with simple easy gadgets is only good to see how things work and experiment with them, but otherwise can be almost a waste of time... Perhaps not a waste of time in every case, but can be in much cases...
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: edo on February 19, 2007, 10:07:14 PM
Hi Jack,

Brief background: Part of my background includes corporate-management and R&D development so I know, first-hand, how expensive and time consuming research "on the leading edge" can be ... and usually is.  Although I've not "walked in your shoes", so to speak, I am really sympathetic with the challenges you (and other researchers) face in these at-the-edge endeavors ... "finicky" to say the least.

Well, a few years ago I came across an web-article on "over-unity" ... with a formal background and degree in physics-math and electrical-engineering my first thought was "yah, right!"  Then I started reading stuff by Tom Bearden, John Bedini, Jean-Louis Naudin, and many others ... what an awakening for me and some of my close friends and associates.

I respect you, your work, the challenges you have had to over come, and I sincerely encourage you -- as much as I can over the web -- because you appear to be close to another landmark success.  Go for it!

edo


Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Nali2001 on February 19, 2007, 10:16:28 PM
Well I agree I am willing to donate some money no problem but indeed if it is going to be of real use a considerable amount of people will have to do also.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Gregory on February 19, 2007, 10:25:52 PM
Well I agree I am willing to donate some money no problem but indeed if it is going to be of real use a considerable amount of people will have to do also.
Right.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: IronHead on February 19, 2007, 10:37:08 PM
Jack
I can help on the wire.
I have a hundred pounds or so of stock from AWG 20H to AWG 10H all high temp.
Also around 30 lbs of AWG 064x128H flat wire.
Message me ,let me know what you need
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: lwh on February 19, 2007, 10:46:01 PM
Jack, for the love of God, release the information.  Even if it costs you your home and everything you have, even if it costs you your life, give what you know to the world, or die trying.

There is no other choice, you must know this.  Within yourself you must know what the right thing to do is.  So do it.

Where is your faith man?  Will you follow Judas' or Jesus' example?

Banish those demeaning fears born of greed and petty materialism.

You have nothing to lose, don't you realize?  With pure intentions you cannot fail.

Stand as a man before your foes and do your duty.  You will be rewarded in ways you cannot imagine.

All your work so far has only been to get you to this point, where you must decide, is it better to die on your feet or to live on your knees?

Let go of your fears, let go of everything, it's the only way to get what you really want.

It's your decision alone, and you are free to do what you will, but know, if you choose to align yourself with the Greater Will, the Greater Good, you cannot fail.  You will not fail.

You must make that leap of faith, or turn around in chains.

You know what to do.

You know what to do.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: idnick on February 20, 2007, 12:31:53 AM
lwh  You gotta be kidding

"Jack, for the love of God, release the information.  Even if it costs you your home and everything you have, even if it costs you your life, give what you know to the world, or die trying."
Would you?? ???  And as far as leaning on that faith pole,  that can get yo ass killed also. I ain't got much faith in faith. :o

Dave
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: gaby de wilde on February 20, 2007, 02:42:26 AM
There are various logical things people look at before they invest in something.  If you wish to build credibility worth investing in a website is the absolute minimum requirement.

I think you can find lots of help with that right here. :)

Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: lwh on February 20, 2007, 08:08:17 AM
Idnick, I meant what I said.  It's just the way I see it. 

I'd like to think I would, you'd like to think you wouldn't.

Don't let my comments derail this thread. 

Les.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Honk on February 20, 2007, 08:47:51 AM
Also around 30 lbs of AWG 064x128H flat wire.

Hi IronHead

Can I ask you the metric dimensions of your AWG 064x128H flat wire?
I mean Width and Thickness. Is it also enamelled?

Regards / Honk
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: JackH on February 20, 2007, 06:33:03 PM
Hello lwh and idnick,
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: dani1 on February 20, 2007, 08:04:27 PM
JackH,
I suggest to sign up for a free .com domain (Office live basics Microsoft is paying it) at http://office.microsoft.com/en-us/officelive/default.aspx and tomorrow you will have a internet-com or org domain with no fees, no ads. It worked for me.

..dani
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: FredWalter on February 20, 2007, 08:48:15 PM
Your windmill need air to operate the gravity wheel will run forever with no wind.  Also if you had read my previous messages you would no how much power the gravity wheel puts out.

I did read your previous message:

Quote
I also have a working gravity machine.  The one I have is only about 24In. in dia. and puts out enough power to lite severial tail lite bulbs from a car.  This gravity machine could be scalled up to easly power a house.   I have never gotten a patent on this thing.  It also could be turned loose to the public.  I have invested about $6000.00 in this project, how do I get that back if I go public.

I have no idea how much power it takes to light several tail light bulbs from a car. Which is why I asked. If I had to guess, I'd say less than 20 watts.

$6000.00 US would pay for the raw materials to make a windmill that would, when the wind was blowing, generate around 2000 watts-3000 watts, or more.

The point that I was trying to make, is that it isn't sufficient to have an overunity device, you have to have one that costs less to make/use than conventional alternative energy devices cost.

Right now I'm assuming that when you say you have $6000 in the gravity wheel, that it cost that much to make.

One way to make money is to sell detailed plans. I don't know how much money you'd make, all I know is that there are some guys out making some money by selling plans.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: IronHead on February 20, 2007, 10:35:33 PM
Also around 30 lbs of AWG 064x128H flat wire.

Hi IronHead

Can I ask you the metric dimensions of your AWG 064x128H flat wire?
I mean Width and Thickness. Is it also enamelled?

Regards / Honk

The flat wire is
1.63 mm x 3.25 mm   High tension, High temperature Epoxy Coat
Sorry but this offer was to Jack to help out the motor technology he is involved with .
So here is a good place to buy this type of wire.

http://www.planetengineers.com/default.asp?cat=Wire

Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: IronHead on February 20, 2007, 10:43:49 PM
BTW  This is Mexcel wire ,the best money can buy . they don't tell you that on the site I
formally posted .

Mexcel  ,if you like to research
http://www.mitsubishi-cable.co.jp/product/finerect/mxe01.html
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Honk on February 21, 2007, 12:08:04 AM
The flat wire is
1.63 mm x 3.25 mm   High tension, High temperature Epoxy Coat
Sorry but this offer was to Jack to help out the motor technology he is involved with .
So here is a good place to buy this type of wire.

http://www.planetengineers.com/default.asp?cat=Wire

Thank you for the link. Looks like a nice place to buy wires and stuff.
Btw, I was not trying to get some of your wire :), I was just curious of the size.
But the size of 1.63 mm x 3.25 mm is acctually to thick for my needs.
If you know any place that can supply 0.2mm x 6mm or similar please let me know.

Regards / Honk
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: hartiberlin on February 21, 2007, 01:32:39 AM
Hello hartiberlin,

I would like to no just how the money would just come rolling in.  I have no patent on this gravity wheel even in the USA, people could just copy it and then they would get all the money.  I'm just not sure how I could be listed as the inventer.  Can you explain this to me.

Later,,,,,JackH


Hi Jack,
if you would post a video with a description how your gravity machine
works and how it can be build, so that every person
could freely replicate it, without any hidden parts,
then we wouldmake sure,
that everybody would know, that you are the inventor.

As there would be a few thousand replications soon
from hobbyists around the world, the word and proof would
spread and you could ask for a small donation,
at least for the first utility bill, which would
be less or no more to pay. This money
people who use it should send to you.

I would be happy to pay you the difference
from my first utility bill, which I will use
less...

Also this would make you so famous, that you will
get invited all over the world and would get many
prizes, etc.. you could publish a book about it,
write your memoires, etc.. all the things famous
people live of....do advertising , etc., etc...

The money just would roll in...if you do it right
and make sure everyone will know, that you were the
inventor, who gave it freely to the world.....
also history will remember you at least a few hundred years...
not too bad to have lived, right ?

Otherwise if you would take it to your grave or
it would be confiscated by the US military for
black budgets research, you will just die
as an unknown inventor and somebody else
will be remembered....
now it is your choice....

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: JackH on February 21, 2007, 02:27:27 AM
Hello FredWalter,
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Thaelin on February 21, 2007, 07:18:33 AM
Hi Jack:
   In the last year or so, I have played with many types of motors. Built so many that I dream of them sometimes. I understand you have to go the way you choose. All for it. Follow your heart and instincts. They lead you down the right path.


Now:   IronHead has wire. Still need magnets. Send me a private message here and I will see about getting you some. So, wire and magnets no longer a problem. Think that should get you down the path a bit farther.

sugra
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: rensseak on February 21, 2007, 08:13:33 AM
Hello FredWalter,

Well I think you know by now that prototyping is very expencive.  All parts need to be made one at a time with machines. There are a total of 26 stanless/ceramic bearings in this thing. And alot of work on machines to get the precision it needs to be able to operate.  The gravity machine is only 48 in. in dia.  It light two lite bulbs that use 2 amps a pice at 24 cvdc.  I think that is around 96 watts.  I think it is quite impressive for such a small wheel.  OH, I also built the generator that was chain driven from the main shaft,  I really do not know how efficient the generator was.

I am sure that a bigger wheel, like 7 or 8 foot with added weights would be suffesiont to operate a 2500 watt low rpm windmill generator.

Now what you need to understand is it took me over two months at over 12 hours a day to build this thing.  I am sure that if it were put into production it would cost alot less and would be faster to build.  Just like your windmill.   I am sure that the first windmill ever built toke alot of money to build and alot of time.  Give me a break PLEASE!

Hello hartiberlin,

I'll do some thinking on it.   I somehow just do not trust some of the users on this forum.  Especially the ones that would rather see me dead so they could copy my stuff.

Later,,,,,,Jack W Hildenbrand


hi Jack, 
i think also it will be the best to present it in the public like Stephan said. At very first you can also invite  engineers of a respectable university, some person from the government and so on ..... for presentation like Steven Markt did with his TPU. But make sure you video-tape this presentation and the recording should be in your hands.

just my two cents and 
keep up the good work

Norbert
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: hartiberlin on February 21, 2007, 12:08:12 PM
P.S: My advice,
just keep government people out of the demonstrations at the first time.
Just show it only to people who are not skeptical or
could loose their job in a longer run...
Just show it to people like us, who look for alternatives of the current
energy supply.

Anyway, make sure there are many video copies out there and nobody can
suppress these videos.

Jack, 96 Watts sound amazing for such a small diameter.
I think, when I remember correctly the Bessler wheel was 3 meters in diameter
and delivered only around 10 to 20 Watts ??!

How fast does your thing spin ? RPM ?

Can you at least show a photo, where you cover the thing with
a towel or something like this and show us lighting these bulbs ?

Of course it would be nice, if you could show at least a picture that
shows it all,
maybe from a distance, so one could not see too many details !

Is it also a machine simular to the Bessler wheel, where it was said
8 weights were inside the wheel ?

Do you use additionally magnets to make it work or
is it a purely gravitation driven machine ?

The guys at www.besslerwheel.com forum would
celebrate you as the new Besser of the 21st century !

So please come forward and let us know more.

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: FredWalter on February 21, 2007, 05:10:01 PM
The gravity machine is only 48 in. in dia.

In a previous article you said:

Quote
The one I have is only about 24In. in dia.

Can I assume it is 48 inches in diameter (and you meant to say 24 inches in radius)?

Quote
It light two lite bulbs that use 2 amps a pice at 24 cvdc.  I think that is around 96 watts.

Have you measured the power using an amp meter, and the voltage using a volt meter?

The power it takes to get a bulb to start producing light is less than the power it takes to get a bulb to be really bright. The only way to know for sure how much power is being produced is to measure it.

If your device is putting out 96 watts continuously then that is incredible. If the costs can be brought down then there is a market for this type of motor. Aside from electrical generation, the motor itself can be used to power things.

Quote
Now what you need to understand is it took me over two months at over 12 hours a day to build this thing.  I am sure that if it were put into production it would cost alot less and would be faster to build.  Just like your windmill.

The windmills that I'm referring to are homemade. $6000 is approximately what the materials cost for a 20' windmill put up onto a tower. That price doesn't take into account the amount of labour it takes to make all the parts, and put them together.

Does your gravity wheel make use of your magnetic valve?

Here's how you can make money off your gravity wheel:
1) sell plans
2) sell parts to people who have purchased your plans
3) sell motors, once you've figured out how to bring their cost down

The nice thing about (1) (selling plans) is that the up-front costs are minimal for you.

The thing about (2) is that you can ask for payment up-front, and then go buy the materials and make the parts. (I'm assuming here that you can figure out how to reduce the amount of time it takes to make the parts, so that you can make the parts as you get orders.)

I have no idea how much money you'd make. But you would make something, versus the nothing that you make if you keep it a secret.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: lwh on February 21, 2007, 05:58:12 PM
Jack, yeah, I'm stupid, but you get that.

So here's another way of looking at it. 

Wait and see what happens with the current patents.  They'll either be passed and you end up with a lot of money, or they'll be blocked and you might at least get enough money to satisfy your investors. 

If your current patents get passed then you can also patent the gravity device and get even more money. 

If the current patents get blocked then the patent route really isn't an option for the other device either (If your current patents get stopped,then wouldn't your other device get stopped too if you tried to patent it?) and you'll have to look into some other means of trying to make money off of it rather than patenting it.

So, again, wait and see what happens with the current patents, (even though it could mean the world losing access to the technology you've been working on), as that will make it clearer what to do with the other device.

In the meantime, look into what those other means of making money off the unpatented device might be, at the risk of finding out there is a way that could have been applied to your current patent-pending technology.

Also, while you're waiting, consider setting something up whereby all your knowledge, not just your built devices, will be released to the world should you die unexpectedly.  I really doubt this will inspire anyone to knock you off so the the info gets released, but it could thwart the plans of those who may want to stop your knowledge getting out at all.  It's also a fact that people have untimely accidents or die unexpectedly of natural causes, so why risk taking all that knowledge with you?

Les.   
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: hartiberlin on February 21, 2007, 06:27:26 PM
Hi All,
patents are useless until you will find a company,
that likes your patent and will pay you royalities to produce the
patented devices !

But many things can go wrong :

Company does not want to pay royalities and
just copies your ideas and then makes their own advanced
patents of it by changing a few minor things..
So you have to pay to fight against all their patent lawyers.
Do you still have the money for this fight ?

So you did not only pay for your patent, but now you have to
fight for it in court, which will bring the cost up again,
and you did not have made any money from it yet...

So you see, patenting can be very stressful and costly
and it is a real question if you ever at all will
get paid...

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: idnick on February 21, 2007, 07:10:08 PM
Amen Stefan.  I couldn't have said it better.   It's the American way ya know. Everything revolves around a dollar(s)

Dave

Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: JackH on February 22, 2007, 03:58:27 AM
Hello All,


Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: cchance on February 22, 2007, 05:27:08 AM
Ok im not gonna lie i didnt read all these pages yet thers alot... im most interested in the grav wheel... the question i have is why? dear god why is it everytime theirs a claim of gravity wheels, magnetic motors, etc the developer refuses to go opensource with it, so far the one person i've seen attempt to really distribute it is stefan and i must say the world would be alot further along if atleast some of development concepts were released to the public... if its fear of manufacturing companys taking it and making big bucks it doesnt matter you have "prior art" as long as you have documentation and proof of when you created the design.

Screw "the expense" draw a picture and details of whats needed and im sure atleast 2-5 people on the forum will take up the job of replicating the concept.

It comes down a clear and consice fact since the late 60's, projects that are overunity or dont use a depletable resource tend to disappear and not get uptake by any actual companys. Theirs money in fuel not in a onesale device its a fact of life unfortunately ya they could make a trillion dollars selling limitless  power devices but the fact is they could make a trillion a year in gas for the next 50-100 years.

Then theirs the alternative designers and developers that die from mysterious causes that take their designs with them, or that their plans are destroyed or lost, smashed prototype units etc etc etc etc... we've all heard and seen it happen, well lately i've heard a few people that had big concepts got bought out to shut up. Ya they made a bundle but sure as hell doesnt help the world.

IS their any chance you plan on releaseing the gravity wheel diagram/schematics?
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: idnick on February 22, 2007, 02:36:41 PM
Hey cchance

Read Jacks' last post.

Dave
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: FredWalter on February 22, 2007, 08:24:55 PM
Well the gravity wheel will not be patented.

Thank you.

Have you decided yet if you're going to just release the information, or to sell plans?

Quote
The current gravity machine is 48 in. Dia.

Can you start a new thread for your gravity machine? Do you have any photos of it that can be posted?

Quote
I have checked the current and voltage comming out of it.  I dure it is 96 Watts.

This is very good.

Quote
I have checked the rpm at the shaft, it was a little over 100 rpm, but it has very much torque.

Once we have people reproducing your gravity wheel, if it always turns around the same RPM, then the homemade windmill people at http://www.fieldlines.com could help design a direct-drive permanent magnet brushless alternator, that outputs the desired voltage at that RPM.

Quote
I am currently building one out of a swin bicycle front wheel

I assume that you have a digital camera?

Please take lots of photos as you are making the device. Construction photos (with a ruler or tape measure in the photos, to give an idea of the scale of things) will help a lot when someone else tries to replicate your device.

Quote
I do not know if I can take a video of it while it is running.   My upload speed is only 28.8kbps.

Are you using a digital video camera (or digital camera that can take digital videos), or a camcorder (that requires tapes)?

If you don't know anyone near you that has a fast internet connection, then if you can burn the video to CDROM, then you can mail it to someone with a fast internet connection.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: JackH on February 23, 2007, 02:27:30 AM
Hello All,
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: hartiberlin on February 23, 2007, 02:45:17 AM
Jack, too bad,
you could have made headline stories with your gravity motor
and now you have torn it appart !
That too dumb !

What if your bigger machine does not work ?

Did you at least do a videotape of the working machine ?

Murphy?s law says:
Never change a running system...


You could have made much money with it,
but now you destroyed it !;(

Too bad..

Also over here is not the right place to look for money.
We can only help by publishing and maling sure your
name will be remembers as an inventor...


The money will come from itsself from all the fame it will
generate, but it seems you did not understand this...

There are many inventors like you, who are almost bankrupt
and they never see the possibilities of getting money by publishing all
total freely and being famous and then make money from being famous.
It is also much simpler this way.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: cchance on February 23, 2007, 04:37:54 AM
personally i have to agree tearing a working 96watt system apart was not logical, a 96 watt gravity wheel thats shown and proven is very expandable, hell tie 6 of them together and you have ~600watts of power (gear them to a central shaft perhaps)  that way its getting wider the generator and not a larger diameter. hell a 48" diameter box thats 5ft long :) sounds generator quality to me hehe.

"I'm sure that there are lots of money out there, but where is it when it is needed. Seems like nobody wants to trust anyone. "

With good reason, just look into the past as you've seen theirs thousands of faked and unreproduceable devices that claimed what you say your device does.

No i'm not being negative or saying that yours doesnt do what u say but the fact is without reproductions theirs no way to get backers or people interested in it let alone to invest money in a project. If you want to move forward with things and your financially tight get out the paperwork and put out a call to some builders, hell i'd sign a NDA and a contract acknoleging your creation of the work and not to take credit for it. And i'm sure others would be willing to as well, get them to confirm it and reproduce it and fund it themselves. Then you get the credit for the work, and you have credible reproductions without having to foot out money or strugle to find investors.

People dont want something for nothing, but people arent willing to invest in things that arent proven to be reproduceable or extremely well documented.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: FredWalter on February 23, 2007, 06:09:39 AM
I may take it to my grave, simply because nobody is willing to give a helping hand.

You are right, people aren't willing to give you money as investors, based on just your say-so. There are a lot of inventors, all asking for money, and it's hard to tell who really has something, and who doesn't.

HOWEVER, there are people willing to try to reproduce your devices, to prove that your device works. This would help convince the skeptics with money to invest that you really do have something.

AND, there are people willing to help document how to reproduce your device. This would help with the people reproducing your devices.

There are people willing to help test your devices.

There are people willing to pay money for plans on how to make your devices.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Ergo on February 23, 2007, 09:19:55 AM
Hi, Im not so sure anymore that Jack's so called overunity
machines are for real. I've been reading all the posts of
Jack at this forum and also at Emwiki, Peswiki and Keelynet.
When you line up and compaire all of his claims then it's obvious
that he is very inconsistent when repporting about his progress.
This makes me think that his methods of measurement is totaly
flawd. Or perhaps he's just a mythomaniac....

Anyway. If I had an invention like the overunity motor I would
of course test it as a self running motor generator ASAP just to
make sure that I got overunity. This is the only test that really
proves that the motor is overunity for sure.
C'mon.. He has used a prony brake to test it. Give me a brake!!!

He is saying that he doubles the flux lines by his technique, and
yes, that is true, no doubt about it, but no material known to man
can sustain 3 Teslas without saturation and this is where mother
nature makes sure that the laws of thermodynamics is kept intact.

Among these facts it's the inconsistency part that really troubles me.

Inconsistency facts:
Some times the gravity wheel is 24" dia, othertimes it is 48".
Suddenly he tears the gravity wheel apart...very strange behavior.
In his early motor reports, he's getting 120 - 200% efficiency, that's OK.
Later he tell us that he's got 400% at lower RPM - that's OK.
Now he says that you really need 2x2 inch magnets to get overunity!!??
What the hell..... In the beginning he just built the motors using small
1x1 inch magnets and they were reported having exceptional efficiency.
Now, there's something fishy about the inconsistency of these claims.

There's more facts that is totaly strange, but you have to read about
it for yourself in his posts.

Jack, no offence but perhaps you feel like explaning these facts.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: FredWalter on February 23, 2007, 12:50:52 PM
Im not so sure anymore that Jack's so called overunity machines are for real.

I've seen photos online that include Jack and one of his motors, so the motors are real.

Quote
I've been reading all the posts of Jack at this forum and also at Emwiki, Peswiki and Keelynet.

What is the URL for Emwiki?

Quote
He has used a prony brake to test it.

It is possible to have overunity, without having enough overunity to drive a generator and produce a self-runner. There are losses involved when you generate electricity using a generator.

Even *slightly* overunity is useful, say in a motor driving an electric car, if the additional cost of the motor is outweighed by the cost of the batteries that you don't have to use.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: dingbat on February 23, 2007, 01:29:18 PM
Quote
I have only one thing to say currently.   Everybody is bitching about high gas , high energy, high heating, high everything, however no body is will to put a few bucks out to help the situation.

If I can come and take measurements on your motor(s), and my measurements validate your claims, I will help you complete your projects.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: hartiberlin on February 23, 2007, 01:56:41 PM
Dingbat,
many thanks for the offer.

Jack will you take that offer ?

What we need here are real independant measurement verifications and videos of running things.
Maybe Dingbat can then post a video of his measurements at Jacks motor and also have a look at Jacks gravity wheel parts and maybe at a video of it, Jack might still have.
Thanks.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Ergo on February 23, 2007, 02:32:48 PM
Im not so sure anymore that Jack's so called overunity machines are for real.

I've seen photos online that include Jack and one of his motors, so the motors are real.

Quote
I've been reading all the posts of Jack at this forum and also at Emwiki, Peswiki and Keelynet.

What is the URL for Emwiki?

Quote
He has used a prony brake to test it.

It is possible to have overunity, without having enough overunity to drive a generator and produce a self-runner. There are losses involved when you generate electricity using a generator.

Even *slightly* overunity is useful, say in a motor driving an electric car, if the additional cost of the motor is outweighed by the cost of the batteries that you don't have to use.

By "for real" I didn't mean that he did not have any motors, just that they might not
be overunity....

Here's the link.
http://www.emwiki.info/Hilden-Brand_Magnet_Motor

Overunity without self running capacity is not really any useful.
His claims are 400% efficiency. Even if a generator hooked up to his motor is only
80% efficient then there are at least 380% left to feed to the motor.
If he just had, let's say 120% efficiency in his motors, then there might be a problem to create a self runner. Not otherwise.

The motor is not really suited as a car motor either due to the fact that it is very heavy compaired to conventional motors operating at 98% efficiencies.
An ordinary electric motor can deliver 5HP and it will not weigh more than 20 lbs.
His 5Hp motor weighs about 150 lbs.
It is heavy because it really needs a lot of silicon steel to minimize the saturating
effect at high flux fields. Standard electric motors don't need this much steel
because their coils are next to the magnets thus having a short flux path.
And nowadays there exist even more lightweight ironless motors to be used in cars.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: FredWalter on February 23, 2007, 03:18:34 PM
The motor is not really suited as a car motor either due to the fact that it is very heavy compaired to conventional motors operating at 98% efficiencies. An ordinary electric motor can deliver 5HP and it will not weigh more than 20 lbs. His 5Hp motor weighs about 150 lbs.

We cannot really say whether or not it is suited as a car motor, until we know how much a 20hp motor would weigh, and how many batteries it would take to run the motor for 50 miles of driving. It is the combined (motor+batteries) weight that matters in the car. Having a heavier motor is ok, if it requires less batteries to get the same driving range.

For example, if a 20hp motor weighed 400 lbs, but only required 200 lbs of batteries to drive for 50 miles, then this is win over a conventional 20hp motor that requires 1200 lbs of batteries. (My weight estimates are ball-park figures.)
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: corona on February 23, 2007, 03:19:25 PM
Hi Jack,
Just thought you might be able to use a little tip I was told to protect yourself.

You can get a certain level of idea protection without a patent by writing up documentation such as you would for a patent, then posting it to yourself using the national mail system. This package is a copy of your idea that is time/date stamped in a method the courts will recognise.
Then keep the unopened package somewhere safe until such a time as you need to prove your ownership of the idea.

The other way is to simply post plans somewhere public, or many places public, in a large enough way that no one can deny that it's yours. This is obviously what the likes of myself would like because I would love to make a replication to prove you. I'm sorry but I don't have money to send, I'm still a student struggling enough to support myself. What I do have however is full access to the factory where I work part time, at Floppy Sponge Automation (www.floppyspongeonline.com). We are a small engineering firm in Australia who specialises in small automated displays and equipment. I'm the electronics designer, all the electronic gizmo's on our products page are designed solely by me. My boss is an accomplished mechanical engineer (he's designed entire car chassis for race cars). We are both very interested in these technologies, although he's somewhat more sceptical than I am. The reason I'm saying all this is we have the means to produce devices like this, if I could build a demonstration model to prove to him that this works, my boss can get capital to build these professionally. We would be more than willing to go into some form of partnership with you to turn this into a viable marketable product. I'm also studying a degree in engineering and science, majoring in research and development, as such I have access to research laboratories at the uni I'm studying at. With a demonstration model I'd have no problem finding a lab that would sponsor a project looking into all the science behind the device, I would love to have my next research project focusing on a device like yours, and possibly later going into a phd on it. I know from experience that my universitie in australia are absolute sticklers on getting accurate assessments of ip ownerships, once you've got your mailed package of proof there would be no problem protecting your claim. I know my uni for instance has had plenty of joint patents in the past, where they will happily put up the funds for the patent organised by a phd student that gets filed under the names of all people involved, not just the uni.

I know there are a lot or arse holes out there that just want to steal ideas, hopefully you may believe it when I say I'm not one of them. I just want to design and build stuff, I'm actively building other replications of devices currently (main one being http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,1988.280.html at the moment). I guess I've got no other proof of my integrity except that I'd love to help in any way I personally can. I know I haven't been active in this thread, but I've been watching it for a while, and have a lot of respect for your ideas. I urge you to have faith in this community as a whole, I believe there are more decent people on here than idiots.

Andrew
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Ergo on February 23, 2007, 03:48:30 PM
For example, if a 20hp motor weighed 400 lbs, but only required 200 lbs of batteries to drive for 50 miles, then this is win over a conventional 20hp motor that requires 1200 lbs of batteries. (My weight estimates are ball-park figures.)

You are right, can't argue against that.
Let's just hope that Jack is truthful about his motors.
There's still lots of inconsistency in his story that needs to be explained.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Eastwood on February 24, 2007, 03:45:19 PM
Hi everyone!

Jack, you can look at your competitors www.perendev-power.com and follow their way to make millions of USD. We have 3 of PERENDEV motors for 300kW each working at our little factory. So, every hesitated person can be sure that these machines is a reality. About 1000 of them are sold by Perendev for the last 10 months. The only reason  that this fact is not known by the society is because perendev obligates buyers to keep their mouths shut (in order not to upset the wolrd energy market). Every motor has a GPS built-in, and the motor can be confiscated for many reasons.

Everyone can order these motors from Perendev.

So, you all can relax about PERPETUUM MOBILE. IT HAS COME TO OUR WOLRD ALREADY.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Omnibus on February 24, 2007, 04:55:46 PM
@Eastwood,

Let me get it straight. Your factory has motors which give out 300kW without any energy put in. Is that correct? Would it be possible to visit your factory and see these motors?
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Eastwood on February 24, 2007, 06:21:39 PM
Yes. Perendev motors are MAGNET-MOTORS without any external power input needed.
Though it is strictly prohibited by the terms of the Perendev agreement, I can let you in to see these motors. Because I`m just a worker on that factory, and I will not loose my money since I didn`t pay for it. About 200 000USD were paid for 3 motors with delivery cost.

So, come and see it. Our factory is located in Almaty, Kazakhstan, 209 Abylai-khan st.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Omnibus on February 24, 2007, 06:44:10 PM
@Eastwood,

Thanks for your reply. I am willing to visit you but I don't want to violate any agreements your factory has. My approach and interests are purely scientific and I believe in openness and sharing as is the usual practice in science. My experience is that when important scientific matters are concerned, most often than not secrecy is a coverup for finagling and misrepresentation. Hope this isn't true in this case.

P.S. My e-mail address is in my profile so if you wish you may drop me a line.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Eastwood on February 24, 2007, 07:57:33 PM
Yes, scientific openness is a usual practice in the world, but not when it concerns big politics or BIGGEST ENERGY MERKET in the whole world.

Most people even don`t recognise that they live at a great time of world changing. 
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Omnibus on February 24, 2007, 08:17:28 PM
@Eastwood,

I don?t think the problem is so much in the conspiracy and suppression as much as that continuous production of excess energy (self-sustaining device) hasn?t been demonstrated properly and that?s the reason why the world doesn?t accept it as a real phenomenon.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Honk on February 26, 2007, 12:34:53 PM
Hey Jack!

Can I ask you if you have run your motors for several weeks during heavy load and then
measured the output both in the beginning and at the end of the test phase to see if
there is any difference?
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: JackH on February 26, 2007, 06:40:08 PM
Hrello Honk,



Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Honk on February 26, 2007, 07:44:12 PM
Thank's for your fast and great reply.

That is good news.
As you probably know by now, I'm planning to build a Hilden Brand motor myself.
But it is like you say "a lot of work". Right now I'm in the cad and planning stage.

My design will be a three phase, one valve per phase, using 2x2x1 inch N50 magnets.
It is a lot like your big motor in the pictures you posted.
But I plan to use just one single magnet per valve.
Calculations show that the gain in force between a single magnet vs two stacked
magnets are not that great, approx 20 pounds. The power difference between 2 vs 3 stacked magnets is really small, like a pound or two.
When doing calculations on the electro magnet I discovered that a narrow 1 inch
wide area will achieve a stronger field than a longer one at the same depth of wires.
It seems like the magnetizing force is more efficient in a narrow electro magnet.

At work I've got a 3 phase generator for free. It can deliver 750W, 105V at 3000rpm.
I intend to create a self runner of the motor and this generator if it is possible.
I'll adapt the voltage from the generator to fit the motor using switched electronics.
I will also design a 3 phase motor controller to help me power the electro valves.

But as usually there is other things in life than building motors, like family and work.
I think it will take me at least 3-5 month before it is built.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: FredWalter on February 26, 2007, 07:56:24 PM
I'm planning to build a Hilden Brand motor myself. But it is like you say "a lot of work". Right now I'm in the cad and planning stage.

Please start post your work-in-progress cad files.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Honk on February 26, 2007, 08:20:23 PM
OK, I'll post the files when my motor is up running.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Nali2001 on February 27, 2007, 03:07:05 AM
Something about magnets
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: JackH on February 27, 2007, 04:22:52 AM
Hello Nali2001,
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Honk on February 27, 2007, 08:30:13 AM
I'd like to add that a magnet at 2x2x1 inch have a lot more force than a 2x2x0.25.
They have the same grade and surface area, just the thickness differs.

Volume does matter up to a certain point of thickness, but after that it is just the grade
of magnetizing that matters.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Honk on February 27, 2007, 10:33:29 AM
Hello Jack.

Iv'e been wondering about the saturation effect of silicon steel.

When using really strong N50 magnets, won't the saturation effect be worse
compaired to weaker magnets, like N42.
The power difference between Input Watts vs Output Watts ought to be the same.

It will take about 12W to equalize grade N50, but only 7W to equalize grade N42.
The N42 is weaker than a N50 but it will also take less energy to equalize it.
And there will be less steel saturation as well when using N42.
The overunity effect of the motor ought to increase due to lesser steel saturation.

What is you opinion about this, Jack?
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: dingbat on February 27, 2007, 02:29:20 PM
Quote
I have only one thing to say currently.   Everybody is bitching about high gas , high energy, high heating, high everything, however no body is will to put a few bucks out to help the situation.
If I can come and take measurements on your motor(s), and my measurements validate your claims, I will help you complete your projects.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: JackH on February 28, 2007, 03:42:40 AM
Hello Honk
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Ergo on February 28, 2007, 08:57:06 AM
However since these pictures were posted I have made several major break throughs.
I have found out that  the valve that I invented werks much better at a low rpm.
I have built a motor that was especially built to operate at around 600 rpms.
This new motor has been tested on a prony brake and the voltage/current was
monitored. Input was 2.2 watts and the output was over 56 watts.
At a pull down of around 200 rpm this motor exhibited over 500% efficiency. :o
I think that means it to be over 400% over unity.
More  will be posted about this motor in the future.

I have built a two inch rare earth magnet model (two valve, two rotor) of my
invention that has proven to produce over %500 efficiency.

I had an electrical engineer from Goodyear Atomic come up to run some tests on the
last motor I built, this motor was only at two thirds built.  In other words it only had
two rotors/valves, a complete motor will have three rotors/valves.
His tests showed it running at around 300% efficiency or better.

The two inch motor I had tested was just a two valve motor, it had some coast time.
However it still tested out to be two times overunity, with a third valve, I'm sure it
would have done much better.

I have a motor that has proven to produce twice out than in.

Some of the motor that I have kept are not really over unity because they are
running at high RPM levels. 
The five valve radial motor was tested at about 100% efficiency, however it has
very little power because it runs at high RPM.By the way if I had a motor that was
five times overunity, would you think I would  need your help then. I don't think so.

What is going on with you Jack? Are you trying to shit us?
All of your reports on your earlier motors stated overunity
from 120% to 400%. This was also the high RPM versions.
And now you are saying that you don't have any overunity motors?
Why do you keep being inconsistent in your story?
If you have any low RPM motor capable of overunity, then let
dingbat for gods sake test it and let him help you out.
He's willing to help you complete your projects if your statements are correct.
This means money, and that's exactly what you want from people.

Well Jack, I'd like to ask you one thing only.
Have you ever had any motor capable of overunity?
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: dingbat on February 28, 2007, 01:19:08 PM
Jack,

Thanks for the response.

Dingbat
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: idnick on February 28, 2007, 05:04:43 PM
Hi Jack

Quote from: JackH on Today at 02:42:40 AM

"Some of the motor that I have kept are not really over unity" because they are
running at high RPM levels

Why in hell would you keep the under unity motors but not the OU motors ?? ??? Scrap em !!!

What did you do with the over unity motors?? ???

Like this one:"I had an electrical engineer from Goodyear Atomic come up to run some tests on the
last motor I built, this motor was only at two thirds built.  In other words it only had
two rotors/valves, a complete motor will have three rotors/valves.
His tests showed it running at around 300% efficiency or better. :o

I think I'm gonna have another Hamm's and think this over and if I can't figure this out before I finish the first Hamm's, I'm gonna have another and another till I do. ;)

Dave

Hamm's the beer refreshing !!!
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Paul-R on February 28, 2007, 05:36:22 PM
You can take a one inch magnet that is two inches long and cut a half in of of it . The half in pice will be just as strong as the longer pice.    However the surface area of a magnet north/south pole when increased or decreased makes alot of difference.   The length however long makes no difference of how strong the magnet is.  Only the serface area of the north/south pole makes a difference.
Later,,,,,,JacKH
But is it not true that a longer magnet will throw its field much further
out than a shorter one? This may have an important effect on performance.
Paul.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: acp on February 28, 2007, 05:41:30 PM
Unfortunately, there do seem to be some inconsistencies in Jack's posts. I was rather hoping that he had something special, but I'm tending towards the incredulous at the moment.... 
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Honk on February 28, 2007, 06:55:17 PM
I sure hope Jack wants to explain his strange and ever changing story.
The last couple of weeks Iv'e have been working on a Hilden Brand motor myself but
it seems like I'm wasting my time if Jack's reports on overunity is false.

Jack! Please explain this strange and sudden change in your reports? What's the truth?
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: JackH on March 01, 2007, 03:57:46 AM
JackH
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: allcanadian on March 01, 2007, 04:36:47 AM
Hey Jack that's a bad attitude, if there's one thing I have learned here is 80% of the people are mainstream and will probably do nothing of any importance, they have opinions which they consider fact, despite the facts, they don't do experiments there above that. They love to coax people on and if ,like you say they don't get all the info they want then they attack!
It just goes on and on in every thread, don't get discouraged, you can be sure just as many people like me are here to listen and help.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Honk on March 01, 2007, 12:04:15 PM
Hello Jack.

I'm sorry to read that you feel offended by people . But when you don't explain your
actions to people they tend to get you all wrong. Especially when they can't understand why your story was changing. Don't get to upset. Just take it easy and
please take Dingbats offer to help you out with your project.
He can probably buy you the magnets, and Ironhead at this forum is willing to give
you the copper wire that you need for free. Please contact them and take their offer.

I will continue to build a Hilden brand motor myself, just to see if there is a possiblility
of getting over unity. The motor is not that expensive to build for me, just $500.
I'll post the results here (if the thread remains) later this year.

/Honk

Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: FredWalter on March 01, 2007, 06:48:30 PM
you can be sure just as many people like me are here to listen and help.

It is pretty clear that what Jack wants is money, to pay off his latest patent lawyer bill, and to pay for parts, and to pay to keep the electricity hooked up to his shop, and to pay for various other things.

So unless you have a big wad of cash to donate his way, I believe that he doesn't consider you to be helping.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Topguner2 on March 01, 2007, 06:52:28 PM
Hello Honk,

Yes you are probably doing something stupid Honk, trying to build one of my motors. Well when you are pore you need parts from one motor to the next.  Currently I have no motors that are overunity.  The two in motor that I had tested two times over unity.  I had to tear it apart to get the magnets out of it to build a generator.

You know what,  I could really give a shit if you all beleive me or not.  You all are just a bunch of want something for nothing assholes.

This is my lat post, I give up on all you assholes.

Later,,,,,JackH

Stefan HartMann
PS: you can take my name totally out this stupid message board,  I give up.
Could you also if possable remove the Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor Forum.


Who is the a**hole here? People have offered to help you but you rudely turn them down. The only form of help you seem to want is cash. Please tell us exactly how much you need so we can all pool our hard earned money together and give it to you. we don't really need any proof that you have anything because we are all rich and have plenty of money to piss away.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: ResinRat2 on March 01, 2007, 08:07:08 PM
Thread started: March 11, 2006

Thread died: March 1, 2007

Almost made it one year.

Accomplishments: ???

All that anyone really asked for is independently verified proof. Is that such a crime?

Apparently so.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: idnick on March 01, 2007, 08:16:20 PM
Quote from: Topguner2
 we are all rich and have plenty of money to piss away.
[/quote

Wow!!! we are all rich and have plenty of money to piss away.  :D  Wish this was true, but in my case, :(
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: dingbat on March 01, 2007, 10:29:28 PM
Jack,

I have followed this thread from start to finish, and I'm sorry that it is ending this way.  You have obviously poured a lifetime of work into what you have done.  Good luck in the future with your projects.  I hope you get the opportunity to complete your motor and gravity wheel and get some satisfaction out of the results.

Dingbat.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: JackH on March 02, 2007, 02:32:38 AM


Later,,,,,JackH
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: ResinRat2 on March 02, 2007, 03:24:19 AM
In the famous words of the series "24"

"Jack's back!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Thread resurrected: March 1, AD2007
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: dingbat on March 02, 2007, 03:54:31 AM
Jack,

Do you have anything in running condition right now?  If not, how about I come and see what we can do about the points burning up, and getting that motor running?  Then once that motor is running and we do some testing we move on from there and estimate what it will take to get the next motor running.  It seems like it would be the most cost effective way to move forward.

Dingbat.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: IronHead on March 02, 2007, 04:08:02 AM
Hey Jack
Really sorry I don't have enough wire for your needs in 17AWG.
But 20 pounds would be a good start. 17 is an odd ball for me. Most of what I do is in 12,14,16 . Anyway hope you find what you need and speaking for myself. I don't want anything from you ,nor have I even ever asked you any questions about you motor. Not once have I posted anything negative about you Jack.
If I wanted anything to do with this I would just build it myself. Not like its a complex system. Very simple ,and you have posted every little thing needed for someone to easily replicate this. Anyway I'm done.

So good luck
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: JackH on March 02, 2007, 05:25:46 AM


Later,,,,,, JackH
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: dingbat on March 02, 2007, 12:59:19 PM
Jack,

Since neither one of us is independently wealthy, we need to balance priorities somehow.  It sounds like there are several paths to get something running, and different results expected depending upon which motor we move forward with.

I have a lot of "stuff" in inventory, and so do you.  Maybe I should come and look at what you have, and discuss what I have that might help.  Then we can decide what will cost the least money by using resources that we already have paid for between us.

Then we can figure out a budget for moving forward.

For starters, what size aluminum do you need for the endcaps?  I have quite a bit in stock.  What other parts are needed for it?

Dingbat
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Honk on March 02, 2007, 04:29:06 PM
Great to have you back, Jack. ;)

I look forward to see your big powerful motor in self running action and doing work.
Hopefully your electronics friend can make you an AC/DC converter that will adapt
the voltage from your generator to fit the needs of the motor you have built.
Please post a small video. You can use almost any digitalcamera as video recorder.

You could take Ironheads copper offer (I know he's only got 20 lb) but this is at least
a starter. Then you only need to buy 10lb of copper wire. Seems like a good deal.

Don't be afraid to seek independently verified proof of the overunity capacity.
Once you have a self runner that is capable of doing work then I bet you will hear
from all kinds of corporations that will offer you lots of money.
And that's OK with me. You have told us here at this forum how to build your motor
so there is no risk of the invention being stored away. It will come to good use. ;D
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: gyulasun on March 02, 2007, 04:56:22 PM
... You have told us here at this forum how to build your motor
so there is no risk of the invention being stored away. It will come to good use. ;D

I do not know who else have noticed but Jack did erase the content of ALL his mails on this thread from the very first mail, and he did this March 1  when he was signing off...

So on this Forum there is no any "how to"  from him...

Maybe Stefan could undo/bring back the erased text if Jack also agree?

Thanks
Gyula
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: FredWalter on March 02, 2007, 06:33:37 PM
I do not know who else have noticed but Jack did erase the content of ALL his mails on this thread from the very first mail, and he did this March 1  when he was signing off...

He does this every so often. Because of this, I've taken to regularly saving pages from this discussion on my computer.

Quote
So on this Forum there is no any "how to"  from him...

Jack has never posted "how to" instructions for his motors. He did post information on magnetic valves, but it's a big jump going from that, to motors that use magnetic valves instead of magnets.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: hartiberlin on March 02, 2007, 06:36:58 PM
Hello Jack,
when will we at least get to see a picture of your gravity device ?

This could indeed speed up the process in getting help.

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: lwh on March 02, 2007, 11:06:12 PM
Sorry to interrupt again, but at the moment, I think Jack's the only one who knows (and the only one who may ever know) how to build these motors, and it'd be a waste for the world to lose that knowledge, more of a waste than the few dollars I can spare to help stop that from happening.

That's why I'm still willing to contribute some money.  If that makes me a fool or a sucker so be it.  It'd have to go towards the building of the gravity type motor though, not the one getting patented.  I don't want to put money towards something that's just going to get confiscated by the authorities if the patents get classified.

I'd be willing to part with up to a hundred dollars based on what I've seen and read so far.  If that's not enough to be of any help then I'm sorry.  I'd consider giving more, if, based on more information, I thought I might be contributing to something that's not only sure to work, but that's actually going to see the light of day and be made available to people.

So what's the procedure for buying shares?  If that's the only way you'll accept donations, how's it done?  If it's too complicated a process it might make me change my mind, but if it's straightforward enough, I'll see then how I'm feeling about it and maybe make an actual pledge.

Les.

P.S.

Pardon my naivete, but I have some other, more rhetorical questions.  Can anyone explain to me how it is that Jack's investors and the U.S. military get to decide whether it's just them or the whole world that benefits from Jack's patent-pending inventions?  How does the benefit to those few outweigh the benefit to the many?  I'm not a U.S. citizen, I don't live in the U.S., so why does their military dictate what sort of motor technologies are available to me in my country?  Isn't it a case of their protecting their own interests and everyone else be damned, everyone including, ultimately, their own people?  Also, who are these investors who seem to be willing to let the patents get classified just so they might get their money back?  What sort of an investment return is that?  Didn't they know the patents would probably get classified?  Didn't the patent lawyer know that too?  Knowing now that the patents might get locked up, why aren't they trying to find other ways to get their money back, and more?  If they were to pull the patent applications, get more investors, and just start building and selling the motors, even on the smallest scale at first, wouldn't they get more than their money back before anyone even gets a chance to copy them and go into competition?  And once in competition wouldn't there still be enough of a market share for them to be able to make a fortune?  Sorry if these are stupid questions, just ignore them if that's the case.       

 
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: JackH on March 03, 2007, 04:32:32 AM


Later,,,,,,JackH
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: lwh on March 03, 2007, 05:29:00 AM
Thanks for the info Jack.  Looks like there was a typo in your last message though.

Is it that the company was valued at $50,000 and the shares were $500 each, or that the company was valued at $500,000 and the shares were $5000 each?

Either way is probably out of my reach (at least approx. $750 AUS), but maybe others would like to know too.

Seems like you just need the money to get the 500 Watt version built and things might start falling into place.

Not sure why someone would give you a million dollars just to see the gravity wheel though, but good luck with it all, I hope it all works out well.

Les.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: idnick on March 03, 2007, 04:20:44 PM

Not sure why someone would give you a million dollars just to see the gravity wheel though, but good luck with it all, I hope it all works out well.

Les.

Maybe to surpress it.  ???
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Nali2001 on March 03, 2007, 05:23:12 PM
Hi Jack sound like there maybe will be light at the end of the tunnel, great!
BUT I don't know who is offering the million dollar prize. But if it is James Randi http://www.randi.org/ (http://www.randi.org/) and his skeptics million dollars free energy prize. I must kind of warn you because you might be in for a ride/disappointment. Because in this guys mind free energy means 'energy from nothing' and such a thing does not exist. So if you were to present him a over unity device that runs by itself, tapping the power of magnets/gravity/ether you will not get the prize since you don't meet his demand of showing him a ?energy from nothing device?. He'll see it as just another device using an unknown fuel.

Keep us informed!
And please stick with us.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: idnick on March 04, 2007, 04:17:59 AM
Quote
you don't meet his demand of showing him a ?energy from nothing device?. He'll see it as just another device using an unknown fuel.

No true're words ever spoken.  Whether, James Randi or any of the other fine PPL that offer these high prizes have never done anything. They are sittin, waitin for someone to lay it in their lap and have no intention of paying nothing. They want something for nothing
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: JackH on March 04, 2007, 05:04:25 AM

Later,,,,,,JackH
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: idnick on March 04, 2007, 05:50:13 PM
Great Jack.  I hope it all comes together for ya. Hang in there champ!!!!

Dave
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: JackH on March 04, 2007, 09:56:34 PM
Hello All,

Well, I am beginning to beleave all of this stuf about James Randi.  I have made searches with Googal and all I can find is skeptics.   Maybe he will try to not pay up because of the magnets.   I wish I could find a web site where he agrees to pay the prize for a gravity wheel, so far I have found nothing.  Like I say, there is always something.

I may just go to the Ohio State University and have it tested, After that I will turn it loose.

Later,,,,,,JackH
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Nali2001 on March 04, 2007, 10:45:18 PM
Hi Jack, well you can always TRY the Randi thing. Just don't break his neck (hmm on second thought...) when 'he is not amused'.
You can contact him for official documents discribing the rules and requrements, like a contract's small letters.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: idnick on March 05, 2007, 03:27:51 PM
Jack

With a good set of blue prints, Ohio State University might help with the funding, It's worth a try.  ;)

Dave
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Low-Q on March 08, 2007, 11:40:57 PM
I might be slow, and not being paying much attention to all the posts here lately (I have been busy helping my wife giving birth to a little boy, William - which is also my son of course ;)), but do you, JackH, have drawings for your gravity wheel?

br.

Vidar
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: JackH on March 09, 2007, 12:02:55 AM
Hello Vidar,

No I do not have drawings.  This wheel is very complicated.  It would take me weeks to draw every part of this thing.

Later,,,,,,JackH

Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Low-Q on March 09, 2007, 12:23:59 AM
Hello Vidar,

No I do not have drawings.  This wheel is very complicated.  It would take me weeks to draw every part of this thing.

Later,,,,,,JackH


At school I learned to simplify extreme complex equations - equations lasting for several pages ended in 0 (zero) - so much work for nothing, so to speak. The world is all about mathematics - your device included. So my 1000 dollar question is then: Is it possible to simplify your gravity wheel? I do not mean simplifying to 0 (zero).
Are you sure all parts are doing peculiar tasks, and not some how canceling out each other?

I assume you have built it (?), and also have an idea behind the complexity of your device (?).

Pictures? Or have you disassembled it already?

I'm questioning you, but I hope you'll understand. No offence JackH :)

Br.

Vidar
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Paul-R on March 09, 2007, 03:53:35 PM
Hello All,

Well, I am beginning to beleave all of this stuf about James Randi.  I have made searches with Googal and all I can find is skeptics.   Maybe he will try to not pay up because of the magnets....
Later,,,,,,JackH

Or because he does not actually have the money. He comes across as
a bigot. What country do you live in, Jack? There are grants to be found.
Paul.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Liberty on March 09, 2007, 04:42:40 PM
Hello All,

Well, I am beginning to beleave all of this stuf about James Randi.  I have made searches with Googal and all I can find is skeptics.   Maybe he will try to not pay up because of the magnets....
Later,,,,,,JackH

Or because he does not actually have the money. He comes across as
a bigot. What country do you live in, Jack? There are grants to be found.
Paul.

Are there "strings" attached to these grants?  What can you tell us about these grants?  The country is the USA.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Gregory on March 09, 2007, 06:04:25 PM
Hello Jack,

I would be interested about the principles you use in your gravity wheel?
Can you tell me some hint?

I don't ask for the plans, only for the partial principles / theories the machine operate on. I also have analysed lots of my own and other gravity wheel designs, and I think I have chance to figure out something myself.

I suppose your wheel operates by principles and parts already common for people, but usually don't used on the way and combination you use, right?

Does your wheel contain springs, pulleys, pendulums, pistons, or any common mechanisms?
What type of motions are presents in the inner workings? (example for different types: Circular, straight line, oscillating, intermittent, linkages... etc.)
Does your wheel use the Roberval balance principle as an advantage?

Thank you,
Gregory
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Paul-R on March 09, 2007, 10:15:09 PM
Hello All,

Well, I am beginning to beleave all of this stuf about James Randi.  I have made searches with Googal and all I can find is skeptics.   Maybe he will try to not pay up because of the magnets....
Later,,,,,,JackH

Or because he does not actually have the money. He comes across as
a bigot. What country do you live in, Jack? There are grants to be found.
Paul.

Are there "strings" attached to these grants?  What can you tell us about these grants?  The country is the USA.
O.K. Give me a couple of days. I'll see what I can find.
Here in the UK, as you will have read, Richard Branson is offering $25m to anyone
who can solve the atmospheric CO2 problem. He might split it up if nobody
can claim it.
Strings? Sometimes Yes, sometimes No. But often, there are strange conditions.
Paul.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: JackH on March 10, 2007, 04:23:42 AM
.

Later,,,,,,,JackH
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: lancaIV on March 10, 2007, 04:42:42 AM
Hello JackH,

the investment answer from our side will be negative,
not because of the technology,
but cause the price/effect ratio !
A 3KW-Hilden-Brand-Motor,more the generator, will never produce an acceptable
e-KWH- price which could be a solution for the global energy kind change !

"Acceptable"= under 1 Euro-Cent per KWH

This is my critical point,from commercial view, not about your honorable temptation
to find a way for solution of the "fossil energy crisis " !

Sincerely
            Christoph de Lan?a

p.s.: "Overunity" as periodically phenomen is physical standart:
       "Physics"-Alfred Nobel-Award 1989


 
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Paul-R on March 10, 2007, 04:27:02 PM
Hello Paul-R,
Well I would really like to get ahold of this Richard Branson.  He may be the answer to all of us.  And also about the grants, where do you find out about them.
I am from the USA,  Ohio.
Later,,,,,,,JackH
What is your nearest university? Sometimes grant givers like co-operative ventures.
Would you be up for this? Could you propose a generator as well as a motor? Could
you produce a better generator for a wind turbine than what they are using now?
Could you design two projects together so that funding for one project helped
the other?

Here is the article that I talked about:
http://environment.guardian.co.uk/climatechange/story/0,,2009530,00.html#article_continue

You could draw up a shopping list of what you need.

He might be able to find alternative funding, or a pilot study, or get your bills paid, or get Virgin Altantic's workshops to get a job on a lathe for you. Sometimes, a letter
sent by old fashopined steam post gets more attention:

Sir Richard Branson,
Virgin Ltd,
120 Campden Hill Road
LONDON. W8 7AR.
British Isles.

All the best.
Paul-R. (Grant info coming shortly).
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: JackH on March 11, 2007, 03:09:27 AM
Hello Paul-R,

Thanks for all your info.  It just may be what I'm looking for.

Thanks again,,,,,,JackH]
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Low-Q on March 11, 2007, 10:10:21 AM
Hello Vidar,

Yes I did disasemble the first one, I needed to use some of the parts to build the big one.     As for now I am sure I can get it running again with out the use of magnets. Yes the wheel takes many parts. I have been working in the shop now for about a week just building small parts.   One thing you all need to remember is if it were easy to build it would have been built by now.   And the same falls true with the magnet motor.   It takes lotts of money just to keep up with the cost of building parts.

Later,,,,,,,JackH

OK. Please remember to take several pictures and a videos of this motor next time it works ;) It will help you to remember the mechanical setup if you take pictures of the composition.
I can't understand you're building workable machines and destroys them without taking care of the mechanical setups... :-\

Br.

Vidar
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: JackH on March 12, 2007, 03:53:01 AM



Later,,,,,JackH
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: idnick on March 13, 2007, 04:20:47 PM
Hi Jack

Quote:
"Power means alot to me, and if something is just barely running I need to fix it."

You wouldn't happen to be related to Tim "the toolman" Taylor from Home Improvments would ya??  ;D  Just a joke, Jack!!!  Hang in there champ.

Dave
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: lancaIV on March 13, 2007, 04:30:05 PM
www.gigadron.com/Branson%20Hype.htm  ,
a singular view about Sir Richard Bransons offer !

S
  dL
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Honk on March 14, 2007, 08:51:19 AM
Hello Honk,
IronHead wanted me to pay the shipping cost on the wire.  I didn't have the money.

The two valve motor will never run again.  It was just two times overunity. Now to have a self running unit, you need at least a three times overunity motor to overcome the generator loss and the chain/gear loss to drive the generator. 
Later,,,,,,JackH

If I understand you right then 2 times overunity means 100% efficiency and
3 times overunity means 200% efficiency.
But wouldn't just 2.4 times overunity be enough to create a self running unit.
The generator you have built is probably at least 85% efficient.
And a chain wheel gear box is most times at least 96% efficient.
The switched electronics to fit the generator voltage to your motor is usually
98% efficient if designed correctly. Efficiency = 0.85 * 0.96 * 0.98 = 0,7997%
This equals to 79.97% efficiency in the power transfer from the generator to motor.
But you are right about 3 times overunity. Then there is plenty of left over power
to do some work besides running the motor.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Paul-R on March 14, 2007, 05:06:12 PM
Hello Paul-R,
Well I would really like to get ahold of this Richard Branson.  He may be the answer to all of us.  And also about the grants, where do you find out about them.
I am from the USA,  Ohio.
Later,,,,,,,JackH
....still working on the grants list. In the meanwhile, it might be a good idea
to go here and download their software to help people apply in the best
possible way:
http://www.funderfinder.org.uk/applyyou.php
These people are, I think, UK based. I am asking them if they have a
US version. Either way, their software to help folks put together the
best possible proposal is probably a good idea whoever someone might
apply to.
Paul.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: JackH on March 15, 2007, 03:45:32 AM


Later,,,,,JackH
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Honk on March 27, 2007, 11:13:07 AM
How is your patent application on the motor and valve proceeding?
Any news from the office or have the US army shut down your patent?
/Honk
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: JackH on March 29, 2007, 04:21:45 AM
Hello Honk,

Well I again talked to my patent aturney today.  The patents were post to be isued the middle of last month.   However the patent aturney still has no word from the Army or Navy.   They can take as lone as they want to, I gus

I still have no Idea whether I'll get the patents or not.

Later,,,,,,,Jack W Hildenbrand
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Nali2001 on March 29, 2007, 06:01:37 PM
See these attached movies
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Nali2001 on March 29, 2007, 06:21:03 PM
and
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: lancaIV on March 29, 2007, 06:33:33 PM
When we read the JLNaudin MEG-list,
then we can notice that the "Parallel Path Technology" was invented by
Mr. Radus,US3569947, and not by the Flynn-brothers !
 

Also important:Bonnetot,US3089064,Fig.6 compared with JP2004194491
                    for me one reason more to realize the Kango IIda  generator !
                   

S
  dL
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Honk on April 03, 2007, 10:15:04 AM
Hey Jack.
Here is a cheap 2x2x1 inch N50 magnet, just 29.99 each.
http://www.magnet4less.com/NB080.html (http://www.magnet4less.com/NB080.html)
Regards / Honk

Hello again Jack.

The price on the 2x2x1 inch N50 magnet has dropped.
http://www.magnet4less.com/NB080.html
Now you can get them for just $25.99 each.
It will must be difficult to get them any cheaper than this.

How is you big motor coming along?

/Honk
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: JackH on April 04, 2007, 04:44:05 AM


Later,,,,,,,,JackH
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Honk on April 04, 2007, 08:50:35 AM
Great.
I hope you do well with this new investor!
Once you are ready please post a small video of your fine motor doing work.
I believe everyone here will appreciate to watch it.
If the video can prove your goal of creating free energy, that this will help
you to sell the motor/generator setup to heat up peoples homes.



Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Paul-R on April 04, 2007, 04:07:30 PM
Hello Honk,

Well the motor is completly built, just waiting to be able to buy the magnets.......
Later,,,,,,,,JackH
It would pay to try the Chinese direct:
http://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=en&q=neodymium+site%3Acn&meta=
Postage time may be an issue. I see that there is a chinese Ebay. I
wonder if these manufacturers would take Ebay's PayPal service.
Paul.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: yorkshireminer on April 05, 2007, 10:56:16 PM
nice to see things are looking a little brighter for you Jack, you deserve a break, lets hope the Government doesn't suppress your patent, that really would put a spanner in the works for you. Remember there is at least one lad here in the Netherlands keeping his fingers crossed and hoping for the best. I don't know what type of internet connection you have got Jack but you might find this link interesting  http://pesn.com/Radio/Free_Energy_Now/recordings/2007/070217_Perendev_MikeBrady.mp3

Deep regards 
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Honk on April 11, 2007, 10:51:33 AM
Hello Jack.
Can I ask you a question?

Have you considered to use N30 magnets instead of N50?
They are a lot cheaper and the silicon steel will become less saturated.

The saturation level of non oriented silicon steel is aprox 1.9 tesla.
When doubling the flux lines of a N50 magnet you will get 2.9 tesla but
then you will loose 1 tesla due to the saturation of silicon steel.

If you were to use N30 you will get 2.2 tesla when doubling the flux lines.
Then you will only loose 0.3 tesla due to the saturation effect.
And it will take less power to equalize the N30 magnet valve. Perhaps just 4 watts.

You should be able to decrease losses, increase the efficiency and save some
money at the same time.
Maybe I'm wrong about this idea? Please correct me if so.

Regards / Honk

Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: JackH on April 12, 2007, 04:32:46 AM
Hello Honk,

Well I just may try the N30 Magnets.   Thay should be a little cheaper, save soime money.  And the motor should run on less current.

Do you have a good source for N30 2"X2"X1" magnets?

Later,,,,,,,JackH
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: JackH on April 12, 2007, 05:12:02 AM
Hello Honk,

Actually N27 may even be better.   If I could find them it 2"x2"x1".

Later,,,,,,,JackH
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: acp on April 12, 2007, 12:20:22 PM
Hi Jack and Honk,

Glad to see this thread hasn't died. Be careful with those cheap neo's from China or wherever most of them come from, I bought some from ebay about six months ago and left them packed in a box. Last week I took a look at them , and found that the plating was peeling away on several of the magnets.

Regards

Albert
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Gregory on April 12, 2007, 11:25:09 PM
Don't know whether it helps:

N42:
http://www.supermagnetman.net/product_info.php?products_id=474
http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?sofocus=bs&sbrftog=1&catref=C6&sascs=1&from=R10&satitle=2x2x1+N42&sacat=-1%26catref%3DC6&floc=1&sargn=-1%26saslc%3D2&sadis=200&fpos=ZIP%2FPostal&ftrt=1&ftrv=1&saprclo=&saprchi=&fsop=1&fsoo=1

N40:
http://www.magnet4less.com/NB064.html
http://www.magnet4less.com/ndfebmagnetblocks.html

2x2x1/2:
http://www.amazingmagnets.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=155
http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=BY0Y08


Also, Samarium-cobalt (SmCo) magnets have strengths between grade N27 and N35. If some seller offer them...
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Honk on April 13, 2007, 08:51:11 AM
Hello Jack.

Iv'e been thinking some more about the strength of magnets.
Perhaps the doubling of flux lines won't saturate the silicon steel.
Maybe the two sources of 1.45 tesla each just adds up to 1.45 tesla.

The valve of yours is doing just this. It parallels two sources of N50.
You can think of it as if you are having one N50 magnet on steel and then
you place another N50 magnet next to it.
This will double the total volume of the N50 magnets and quadruple it's lifting capacity.
But if you replace the two separate magnets with a larger single N50 magnet
of the same volume as the smallers magnets added together then you will also
get the same quadruple lifting capacity but the flux remains at 1.45 tesla.

If this is the case then the power from N50 magnets is the best choice.

If someone here could do a simulation of this in Femm it could help us
to clarify this matter.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: acp on April 13, 2007, 10:46:58 AM
Hi Honk, I think with more powerful magnets you just have to have more cross section in the laminations to avoid saturation.

Regards

Albert
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Honk on April 13, 2007, 01:27:08 PM
Hi Honk, I think with more powerful magnets you just have to have more cross section in the laminations to avoid saturation.

Regards
Albert

That was my second thought regarding magnet flux and steel saturation.
The flux behaves just like pressure. If you got 1.45 tesla and have to small
cross section area in the silicon steel, then the flux "pressure" increases
until the saturation limit of the steel is reached.

This means that N50 will be the best choice but the motor must be designed
to avoid saturation in the steel. A simple FEMM simulation should tell how
the motor should be designed. I'm thinking of any sharp edges and the start position
of the rotor when it's cross section area is minimal when facing the stator.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: acp on April 13, 2007, 03:09:59 PM
Hi Honk, I learnt Femm in a couple of evenings, you seem like an intelligent guy, I'm sure you would pick it up in no time. Work through the tutorial though, as some of it was counterintuitive at first, at least for me. I think Femm would really help to optimise a  motor design.

Albert
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Nali2001 on April 13, 2007, 09:42:21 PM
You might want to see this http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,2222.0.html
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: JackH on April 14, 2007, 03:54:00 AM

Later,,,,,,,JackH
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Nali2001 on April 14, 2007, 01:22:24 PM
Hi there Jack, well first off, I don't expect you to just give away all the vital 'secrets' to successful motor design. But I don't really see the difference between the Jack valve you posted before And the design using washing machine cores. Ok, the place of the magnets is different. But it is still the full magnetism of the magnets combined with that one of the coil going through the rotor combined. Should give a 4 times stronger net result when compared to the coil alone based on the force squared law of magnetics.

Don't really know what you mean by "You must have the magnetic pull through the rotor, you get both sides of the rotor pulling at the same time"
I mean isn't the magnetism always 'puling through the rotor' since it is wanting to close the magnetic path?
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Nali2001 on April 16, 2007, 01:21:28 AM
Hello Jack here is another thing I would like to discuss/suggest.
But first I should make clear that I in no way are attacking your system in any negative way, its a great system. This is a "I'm only trying to help situation".

Well now. On thing I have noticed for a long time is that in my opinion your rotor design is not really effective.  especially when compared to the Flynn rotor/motor system. To me the reason why they get 1hp out of a 3.5dia systems is because they have a more advanced rotor system. Your rotor can only be fired twice each rotation(per valve). Well as you can notice in the attached Flynn design, that they fire like 7 times each revolution, and with 3 'valves' simultaneously. In other words they compress the combined coil and magnet added flux strength, more times per one revolution. They have a much higher power density in one revolution. Now, I have made you a rotor suggestion that may or may not be interesting to you. But it will allow you to fire the valve MUCH more times in one revolution. Of course this asks for a higher impulse frequency, but this is no problem even to regular silicon steel laminates. Yes it is only a fast crude demo and will give saturation problems in this exact layout (unless you lower you combines flux strength) but I am sure you get the idea/principle of how/why it works.

See also the attached movie.
Thanks

Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: JackH on April 16, 2007, 05:02:35 AM



Later,,,,,,,JackH
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Nali2001 on April 16, 2007, 08:38:16 AM
Hallo Jack and thanks for your input. One thing I find curious. And that is the required low speed of the system. I mean this silicon steel is used at 50 and 60hz and should be reasonably good up to 400hz. And running a motor at 1500rpm is like 25hz (or 50 depents how you look at it.). So you are way under the rating of the silicon steel. It kind of sounds to me that the valve has a problem of not fast enough collapsing the fields. Remember once the coils field collapses, the flux of the magnet returns there (through the coil/core area). It is very likely that this action in itself is an 'power generating event', that sets an counter flux up again. So in other words the back emf of the coil, and the generating event from the 'returning' magnet's flux, severely restart an instant "flux shutdown" in the system hence the need for a low system rpm.
Maybe
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: JackH on April 17, 2007, 04:24:21 AM


Later,,,,,,,JackH
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Nali2001 on April 17, 2007, 06:32:48 PM
Hallo Jack. Well I guess you won’t explain this one, and I don’t blame you at all if you don’t. But I really would like to know how in the world you manage to get a valve in the rotor itself. I mean magnets, coils and enough steel to prevent saturation AND a hole for the axle…  must be one of you best guarded secrets.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: JackH on April 18, 2007, 05:00:19 AM


Later,,,,,,,JackH
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: gaby de wilde on May 03, 2007, 02:56:53 PM
Hello Nali2001,

Well as soon as I get the patents back or there clasified, I wont tell.

Even If the patents end up being classified or as soon as I get them back, I'll tell all here.

Really it was not a very big problem getting the valve in the rotor on a big motor.  When you have a valve in the rotor you only need to fire the coils once per rev.  While the rotor is north and the field is north, you fire the coils, you get push of north and pull to the south.

Later,,,,,,,JackH


thanks Jack  :)
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: JackH on May 16, 2007, 04:59:27 AM


Thank you,    JackH

Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: dingbat on May 16, 2007, 03:19:14 PM
Looks good Jack.

Does it mean that your big backer didn't come through?

Quote
Hello Honk,

Well the motor is completly built, just waiting to be able to buy the magnets and the copper wire to wind the coils.

However I think I have a new invester lined up.  He came over the other night and was really impressed.    I think he will be buying 9 to 10 shares.   Also he wants to go into business togather.   He owns the largest machine shop in Ohio.   In fact he wants to change his shop over to building the new motor when its ready.  He has his aturney working on a contract between us.  Should be some money up front for that.

By the way , I all most got my new gravity wheel going.   Maybe another week to finish it up.   This new invester is just giving me the materials to finish it up.

Later,,,,,,,,JackH
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Charlie_V on May 17, 2007, 04:41:50 AM
Hello Jack,

I was wondering, your motors use a lot of aluminum.  Aluminum is not the best material to use when there are changing magnetic fields about.  They produce eddy currents which can really reduce efficiency.  I would suggest polycarbonate, its strong, very machinable (especially since aluminum tends to bind up alot - I hate machining aluminum), and has no magnetic interaction as far as eddy currents (its a really good electric insulator).  Plus its really cheap!  It usually comes in a variety of colors, normally clear, gray, or a translucent black.  You can always go back and spray paint things so to hide the internal secrets of your device.

Your motor sounds/looks very interesting.  Keep up the good work, and best of luck.

Charlie

ADDED - I also thought, if you could tune your coils such that the electrical driving circuit was in resonance, that would probably increase your efficiency.  You might not need as much energy input if you did that.  Just a thought.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: JackH on May 17, 2007, 05:06:05 AM


Later,,,,,,,JackH
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: dingbat on May 17, 2007, 02:38:46 PM
Quote
They tryed to get me to except only $10,000.00 to get full rights to all that I have worked for for 7 years and any thing I invent in the future.  Well I was told that they would buy 9 or 10 shares, but well thay turned out to be lawyer freeks, the contract they wanted me to sign, I just could not except. and I was turned down.

Sounds like lawyers.

Quote
I have been looking for a store to buy polycarbonate, but have not found anyplace to buy it in sheets.   Can you tell me where I can buy sheets of this stuff in about 1/2" thickness.

Laird Plastics, GE Polymers, or any large plastic supplier should have it.  Don't expect it to be much cheaper than aluminum though.  It is pretty pricey stuff.  I called GE Poymer Shapes for a quote.  Current price is $350 for 4x8x1/2 in quantities less than 5 sheets.  1/2" thickness is the thickest standard size for GE.  3/8 and 1/4 are common as well.

Ge Polymer shapes
2554 Needmore rd
Dayton, OH
937.276.3921

Laird Plastics
2066 Valley St
Dayton, OH 45404
(800) 873-8416



Charlie
Quote
(especially since aluminum tends to bind up alot - I hate machining aluminum)

If you don't have the spindle speed, coolant and feed to be extremely aggressive, try about 2400RPM, 24 inches/minute, always climb cut, use Ticn coated 1/2" 4 flute end mills.  HSS is good enough with Ticn coating.  I wouldn't bother with carbide.  Keep some water soluble oil on the tool if possible.  If I can't mist, I usually use full strength water soluable oil right on the cut.  I can cut all day long like this in most grades of aluminum.  Some are better than others for cutting, but most will cut fine with these cutting parameters.  Use regular (square) end mills, not ball nose, to get out all of the material.  Only finish with ball nose end mills.  They will really tend to want to load up.

The Ticn coating is essential.  It is much better than Tin (gold) coating for aluminum, from my experience.  Tin coating will take on some of the aluminum and start to load up.  Ticn cuts much freer than Tin.  It is well worth the few extra bucks if you are cutting aluminum.

I also recommend it for cutting anything abrasive that tends to wear tools.  It is much harder than Tin coating and holds an edge very well, even on HSS cutters.  I find Ticn coated HSS tools to be superior to carbide cutters in aluminum or abrasive materials (ren, polyiso foam, mdf, plastics, etc.)
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Charlie_V on May 17, 2007, 06:50:44 PM
I use http://www.mcmaster.com/ for my polycarbonate.  I don't buy bulk though.  But you can get sheets of it 4'x4'x0.5" for 250 dollars.  They are a pretty good company too, but can be pricey on some things.

Thanks for the Aluminum milling tips.  But, I think I'll still just try to avoid working with aluminum.  Steel, iron, plastics are better for me, I'm only a beginner so I'll stick to the easy stuff.  If aluminum is going to pose a problem in Jack's motor, it will be in the rotor section, not in the coils.  The rotor will have some sort of magnetic field as it spins around - either by permanent magnets placed in it or simple induction between the coils/cores and itself.  If the rotor has the ability to "see" the aluminum, there will be a loss as it spins by.  Eddy currents will set up in the aluminum and it will put extra drag on the axial - try dropping a permanent magnet down a copper tube, you'll see what I mean.  Its probably no big deal right now, but later when Jack starts trying to push performance, it can help.

Ok to explain that resonance I was talking about.  Electrical and mechanical systems are very analogous to each other.  So imagine that your coils are like large weights - that is their mechanical equivalent.  Right now you are trying to push those large weights (by applying a voltage to them).  I'm sure that Jack is periodically turning the coils off then on, at predetermined times to drive the rotor (he doesn't just leave them on constantly).  So Jack's system oscillates.  Mechanically, its a lot easier to make something oscillate back and forth if you have a spring and a weight.  Then you can just tap the weight at a specific time and it will swing back and forth with ease.  If you tap it at a particular instance each time (aka with a frequency) you can get the weight to move the most distance with the same amount of energy.  At that particular frequency, you achieve what is known as resonance.  Tapping too fast or too slow from this point will cause the weight to travel a smaller distance. 

In electric circuits, a spring is equivalent to a capacitor.  And the coil (like I mentioned earlier) is equivalent to the weight.  So right now you have no capacitor (no spring).  Add a capacitor of the right value and you can dramatically lower the amount of energy it takes to drive the coils while keeping the same performance.  There are different ways to arrange things too.  Like you can put the capacitor parallel with your coil to make the current in the coils very small, or you can put the capacitor in series with each coil to make the current very larger - this one is probably what you want since higher current means bigger magnetic field.  This won't mean it takes more power, with bigger current comes lower voltage across the coil and smaller current means bigger voltage.

If you know what frequency you drive the coil with I can give you a simple formula to figure out what value of capacitors you would need.

Regards,
Charlie
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: JackH on May 18, 2007, 02:53:54 AM


Later,,,,,,,JackH
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Charlie_V on May 18, 2007, 05:33:55 AM
Hehe, seems like you got everything covered.  Those capacitors you have across the coils, if you get time, move them so they are in series with the coils.  Then, play with the values a little till you get the most power through.

Having the capacitors in series will make the current in your coils much larger, and the voltage across them lower.  So you'll get a larger driving magnetic field.  Having the capacitors in parallel (shunted - across the coils like you said) makes the current in the coils lower, and the voltage across them higher.  Its whatever works best for you I guess.  Just some tweaks I thought might be advantageous at some point.

Good night, I'm off to bed!
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: yorkshireminer on May 18, 2007, 12:52:31 PM
Jack everything has a resonant frequency. Tuning forks are perhaps the best example different forks resonate at a different frequency. Tuning in a radio, you are doing nothing more than making your radio resonate at the frequency of the station you want to hear. You seem to have instinctively worked it out your self. Just a thought when you fire you valve do you switch it off as soon as the magnet in the rotor has passed the stator valve or do you let the rotor travel a fair distance pass the valve. It would seem to me that the back EMF generated in the coil would act to retard the motion of the rotor if you switched off the valve directly after the rotor magnet had passed the stator magnet. Magnetism as far as I know still works by the inverse square rule. Secondly could you not use the back EMF to help fire the other coils and there by saving energy. Thirdly could you not get one of you fans here to help you with the electronic  circuit. The secret of your valve ie, its efficiency is in its construction, not in the voltage and the amperes that you put into the circuit, could you not write down what is needed the voltage and amperes needed for the different coils and the timing and let one of you more technical fans here on this thread design it for you. I am certain many would do it with pleasure after they had signed a non disclosure agreement. I am deeply sorry that the greedy bastards tried to screw you, it seems to be about par for the course in this world. What does worry me, and you don't mention it is how is the patent application coming  along? They seem to be dragging it out, and if it is suppressed by the government, which they easily can do, then all you work is for nothing, you will effectively be gagged , you will not be able to disseminate your work and the comfortable old age you have been looking forward too will be nothing more than a dream. By the way jack post a little bit more frequently you get a feeding frenzy going among your fans and that is good for all of us.


Deep Regards

Yorkshire miner   
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: JackH on May 18, 2007, 09:05:42 PM


Later,,,,,,,JackH
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Charlie_V on May 18, 2007, 09:53:05 PM
Oh, the diode in the line with the cap.  I was thinking you had like just a coil and a capacitor.  Yea diodes would make that resonance thing I was talking about more complicated.  Nevermind it then.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Nali2001 on May 19, 2007, 02:37:48 AM
Hello Jack,
Are you saying that you run your motors on contact points, with no ?on the fly? ability to advance or retard the pulsing while running?! Then it is obvious why you can get to higher speeds. Since the pulse timing needs to be MUCH different (earlier) when you are running on 1500rpm, compared to say 300rmp. You need some opto switch timing with the ability to advance or retard the pulse timing while running, with integrated back emf recovery and maybe even use adjustable pulse length. I?ll see what I can do about your circuit question.

Material slowness and back emf will indeed play a role in not being able to go into higher rmps, but if it is true that you are running on un-adaptable contact point that to me seem to be one of the main problems which prevent good speed on the larger machines you have.

Regards,
Steven
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Nali2001 on May 19, 2007, 03:24:54 AM
Here you have a fast circuit with integrated back emf recovery to source battery. And pulse width modulation.
Be sure to use fast components. And be in the 9 > 36v range and under 100amp pulsing.
You can use opto sensors or hall effects like: http://www.dse.com.au/cgi-bin/dse.storefront/464e4d1d05ff63962740c0a87f9c06cf/Product/View/Z2620 (http://www.dse.com.au/cgi-bin/dse.storefront/464e4d1d05ff63962740c0a87f9c06cf/Product/View/Z2620)

Regards,
Steven

Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: JackH on May 19, 2007, 03:34:11 AM

Later,,,,,,,JackH
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: JackH on May 19, 2007, 03:43:28 AM
.

Later,,,,,,JackH
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Nali2001 on May 19, 2007, 03:45:15 AM
Hi Jack I did not mean an attack on you 'low' rpm, but I was just referencing from some Ecklin type variable reluctance motor/generators I tested some time ago. At first I had not changeable timing, and then switched to adjustable and got to higher rpm and so also 'better efficiency' since a lot of pulse power (potential) was wasted due to pulsing too late. It allowed me to optimize the 'puling moment' and so gain efficiency, and in my case a higher rpm was a byproduct.

Regards,
Steven
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: JackH on May 19, 2007, 04:01:14 AM


Thanks,,,,,,,Later,,,,,JackH
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: hartiberlin on May 19, 2007, 06:59:00 PM
Hi Jack,
I made this sticky thread about help for a working electronic controller
for your motors:

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,2386.0.html

so who wants to help you can post a reply there.

Many thanks.

Regards. Stefan.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: JackH on May 19, 2007, 11:27:21 PM

Thanks Stefan, I really apreciate what you have done for me.

Thanks again,,,,,,,,,,,,Later,,,,,JackH
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: JackH on May 20, 2007, 05:44:34 PM
Hello all.

Hay, has anybody ever ordered magnets from magnet4less.com.   I placed an order with them on the 15th of this month, and the order has not been shipped yet.  I have called them severial times and they do not answer and there maill box is always full and I cannot leave a message.   I am beginning to think I got ripped off.

I ordered 15 of there 4"x2"x1"  N42 magnets.

Later,,,,,,JackH


Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: rotorhead on May 20, 2007, 06:00:17 PM
Jack,

I tried to place an email order inquiry with them a couple months ago. I filled out a complete order except for the billing information I gave my email address and phone number so they could get in touch with me to complete the order. They never responded.

I ended up getting my magnets from SuperMagnetMan http://www.supermagnetman.net/ (http://www.supermagnetman.net/). I don't know whether George can supply your magnets from stock, but I think he can special order anything you might need. I have emailed him several times and talked to him on the phone once. He seems like a real nice guy and has been very prompt.

Hope this helps
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: JackH on May 20, 2007, 07:08:20 PM
Hello rotorhead,

They do not have the magnets listed that I want,  However I'll waite a few more days on Magnet4less, see if I can get ahold of them.   Someone on this board recommended magnet4less to me, I can't remember who it was.

If they don't come through in a few more days, I'll cansell the order and give SuperMagnetMan a call, see if they can get the magnets I need.

Later,,,,,,JackH
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Ergo on May 21, 2007, 08:13:07 AM
Hi Jack.

It was Ironhead that recommended magnet4less to you. He dosn't seem to have been
ripped of by them. Perhaps their site isn't active anymore. Maybe they went bankrupt?
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,833.msg23756.html#msg23756

Just thought I might show you where I have gotten magnets this size for a good price.
Here is a 2"x2"
http://www.magnet4less.com/ND072.html
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Honk on May 21, 2007, 01:30:26 PM
Hi Jack.

I would be interested in helping you to design a combined voltage converter and
controller for your big magnet motor. Please have a look at the link below.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,2386.msg32116.html#msg32116

If your'e interested please respond to my email shown in my forum profile.

Regards / Honk
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Nali2001 on May 31, 2007, 04:26:40 PM
Hello Jack and all.
I have something you might find useful.
It is a (simple) way to reduce Eddy currents in motor cores. See the attached patent US6181124. In there in inventor states that his way might even be better then building a core from laminations. In other words a core can be used totally made of solid steel.

I also attached a picture from an Ecklin patent in which the inventor also stated the same manor of reducing the Eddy currents in a core material. Just by biasing the core with a battery.

Well you might as well test it, since it's simple and might give you a gain.
Steven
Title: Re: Magnets4Less.com
Post by: chrisC on May 31, 2007, 07:19:53 PM
@JackH

I just spoke with Allen, the owner of magnets4less.com regarding why you did not get your magnets shipped. As explained to me, it was a misunderstanding. Your magnets are special order because of the unique size and he did tell you he cannot guarantee a delivery in a short time since they come from overseas. Also, his warehouse was being moved to a new location.

All in all, I believe this is a legitimate business out of Plano, Texas and I would feel comfortable ordering from them if they are competitive in pricing.

Regards
ChrisC
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: JackH on May 31, 2007, 09:49:04 PM
Hello chrisC,

The 4"x2"x1' N42 magnets were listed on his web site, there was no mention of special order along with them.   If they was to be special order it should have been listed on the web site.

Hello Steven,

I might give that a try, see what happins.  Thanks for the info.

Later,,,,,,JackH
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: boxofsparks on May 31, 2007, 09:52:00 PM
Hey Jack
Jon here, the wire shipment was delayed but is now on the way.
40 lb spool of the GOOD Stuff  !!!
Should be there Monday !!!
Stay in touch
Jon
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: JackH on May 31, 2007, 10:13:19 PM
Hello Jon,

I'll keep an eye out for it.   Thanks a bunch.  I'll keep in touch.   When I get your address, I'll send you out some stuff also.

Thanks again, for your help.    Later,,,,,,,JackH
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: AppliedMagnets on June 04, 2007, 05:39:08 PM
Hi Jack,
This is Allen from magent4less.com, I have talked with you about the 4x2x1 magnets, they are out of stock and we will have them in stock again around 8 weeks.

After you ordered, I was out of town and we moved to a new location, it is a very busy time for last month, we haven't done the best job to communicate with you promptly, I want to say sorry to you here. But I have called you after I came back to inform you the status and we didn't charge the credit card.

Sorry for all the miunderstanding, I hope I can work with you in the future for your magnet needs, I guarantee you the great performance and best price for our magnets.

Allen
magnet4less.com
Applied Magnets
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: JackH on June 04, 2007, 11:04:13 PM
Hello Allen,   Thanks for the explination.

Later,,,,,,,JackH
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: OffGrid rdnck on June 09, 2007, 10:24:53 PM
FYI-
It seems there is a "company" called EEI that dezscribes a simular process, which they call an "electricity amplifier" , which of course they are selling "investment opportunities, and "comercial liciences". They claim a patent <a href="http://www.evergreenltd.com.hk/patents.htm"><b>6630806</b></a> .

I also see on Flnns web site that he now claims to have a "super efficient" generator, also working on  the same principles you describe, which of course isn't being released to the public, claiming that the more you load it the less input force in needed.  Of course, the military is involved,  so as usual we will never see it.

As far as contolers go, there seems to be all kinds of claims and designs of them if you look around. This <a href="http://www.google.com/search?q=permanent+magnet+dc+pulsed+induction+generator&hl=en&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&hs=Bbl&start=10&sa=N"><b>google search</b></a> alone turned up many pages of them.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: JackH on June 10, 2007, 02:49:58 AM
Hello OffGrid rdnck,

As far as I can tell the EEI device is no where close to my device.  I have looked over all of Flynn's patents and I have nothing like he has.

The motor controllers that you were looking at on google will not operate my motor, it needs to be different in most respects.

Later,,,,,,JackH
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Honk on June 20, 2007, 08:45:34 AM
Some controller news.....
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,2386.msg36184.html#msg36184
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Honk on July 13, 2007, 07:43:13 PM
Controller finished. Check out the pictures...
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,2386.msg39746.html#msg39746
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: lwh on July 21, 2007, 07:12:49 PM
Heya Jack.

This post http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,2808.0.html (http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,2808.0.html) made me of think of what you might soon be going through with your motors.

Here's another link http://www.seaspower.com/ (http://www.seaspower.com/)  This one is to the website mentioned in the interview.  If you're too busy to listen to the interview, the website is fairly self-explanatory.  Maybe you should contact them and see if they can help you get your motors out to the world.

Les. 
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Z on March 06, 2008, 05:01:35 PM
Well, I have also had an "interesting" experience with magnet4less.  Like many people, I was attracted by their lower prices - at first.  Here's the situation: I live in Australia, and was purchasing magnets to be used in physics experiments at Murdoch University.  I registered with the website and then tried to order about $55 U.S. worth of magnets to get things started.  That's not a lot, I admit, but that's not the point.  The order form would not accept that I did not have a U.S. shipping address, so I emailed the company.  After 2 days (not too bad) I received an email response that the web site was operating properly, and so I proceded to place an order.  As I went to "check out" and pay for those $55 worth of magnets, I was given 2 shipping options - I could pay $198.00 for standard shipping or $210.00 for whatever was next best.  And those were the ONLY options.  According to their shipping info, my order weighed 16 lbs. or less.  So, I checked with the U.S. Post Office website and learned that any package, up to 20 lbs, from the States to my address in Australia only cost $37. U.S. ($35. if the postage was purchased online - which I am sure they do).  So, I emailed Magnet4less again to ask if they could reduce the shipping.  Never heard from them.  Now, I know that I was not ordering a lot of magnets, but I did inform them that I was ordering on behalf of Murdoch University's Physical Science Department, and that I would increase the size of my order if they would reduce the shipping to a reasonable amount.  (but that is not even the point - everyone should get good and fair service, not just people who process large orders). Anyway, that might have given them a clue, but I guess not.  Do you think we might want to order more later?   Hmmm... We'll get our magnets somewhere else.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: springfield on April 05, 2008, 12:30:39 PM
Can someone point me to a good overall description of the Hilden-Brand - I'm building up my knowledge right now but there's so much conflicting info - I'm looking for a baseline. Help appreciated.
Mike
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: FredWalter on April 06, 2008, 05:01:56 AM
Jack, what ever happened with your patent applications?
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: JackH on November 28, 2008, 02:15:01 PM
Hello All,


I vinally got my patent numbers #7453341

Later,,,,,,,JackH
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: Thaelin on November 28, 2008, 03:30:55 PM
Hi Z:
   I am not trying to make business for this company but I have done a lot with them and they seem
to be fair on price. I even get volume discounts and dont even have to ask. I think you can expect to
get the best price on goods and on shipping as well. Give them a try at least.

  Northwest magnet. They are in Portland Oregon and have a web site at  http://www.northwestmagnet.com

   Great people, friendly and helpful too.

thaelin


Well, I have also had an "interesting" experience with magnet4less.  Like many people, I was attracted by their lower prices - at first.  Here's the situation: I live in Australia, and was purchasing magnets to be used in physics experiments at Murdoch University.  I registered with the website and then tried to order about $55 U.S. worth of magnets to get things started.  That's not a lot, I admit, but that's not the point.  The order form would not accept that I did not have a U.S. shipping address, so I emailed the company.  After 2 days (not too bad) I received an email response that the web site was operating properly, and so I proceded to place an order.  As I went to "check out" and pay for those $55 worth of magnets, I was given 2 shipping options - I could pay $198.00 for standard shipping or $210.00 for whatever was next best.  And those were the ONLY options.  According to their shipping info, my order weighed 16 lbs. or less.  So, I checked with the U.S. Post Office website and learned that any package, up to 20 lbs, from the States to my address in Australia only cost $37. U.S. ($35. if the postage was purchased online - which I am sure they do).  So, I emailed Magnet4less again to ask if they could reduce the shipping.  Never heard from them.  Now, I know that I was not ordering a lot of magnets, but I did inform them that I was ordering on behalf of Murdoch University's Physical Science Department, and that I would increase the size of my order if they would reduce the shipping to a reasonable amount.  (but that is not even the point - everyone should get good and fair service, not just people who process large orders). Anyway, that might have given them a clue, but I guess not.  Do you think we might want to order more later?   Hmmm... We'll get our magnets somewhere else.

Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 09, 2008, 08:30:50 PM
His patent must be new because google patents doesn't have it yet, but I found it here -->

http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&p=1&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-bool.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&co1=AND&d=PTXT&s1=7453341.PN.&OS=PN/7453341&RS=PN/7453341n

For some reason the patent images were cut off.

PL
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 09, 2008, 08:32:32 PM
JackH, may I ask how much your patent cost?

PL
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: hartiberlin on December 09, 2008, 08:41:47 PM
Here the full patent with images as a PDF file:

http://v3.espacenet.com/espacenetDocument.pdf?KC=B1&date=20081118&flavour=trueFull&NR=7453341B1&locale=en_EP&CC=US&FT=D

You first have to enter the shown code to get free access to the PDF file download.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
Post by: PaulLowrance on December 09, 2008, 11:40:21 PM
Thanks for the link.

JackH's motor is very interesting. The principle reminds me of the MEG.

PL