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Author Topic: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor  (Read 300884 times)

JackH

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Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
« Reply #525 on: April 14, 2007, 03:54:00 AM »

Later,,,,,,,JackH
« Last Edit: October 01, 2007, 03:30:23 AM by JackH »

Nali2001

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Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
« Reply #526 on: April 14, 2007, 01:22:24 PM »
Hi there Jack, well first off, I don't expect you to just give away all the vital 'secrets' to successful motor design. But I don't really see the difference between the Jack valve you posted before And the design using washing machine cores. Ok, the place of the magnets is different. But it is still the full magnetism of the magnets combined with that one of the coil going through the rotor combined. Should give a 4 times stronger net result when compared to the coil alone based on the force squared law of magnetics.

Don't really know what you mean by "You must have the magnetic pull through the rotor, you get both sides of the rotor pulling at the same time"
I mean isn't the magnetism always 'puling through the rotor' since it is wanting to close the magnetic path?

Nali2001

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Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
« Reply #527 on: April 16, 2007, 01:21:28 AM »
Hello Jack here is another thing I would like to discuss/suggest.
But first I should make clear that I in no way are attacking your system in any negative way, its a great system. This is a "I'm only trying to help situation".

Well now. On thing I have noticed for a long time is that in my opinion your rotor design is not really effective.  especially when compared to the Flynn rotor/motor system. To me the reason why they get 1hp out of a 3.5dia systems is because they have a more advanced rotor system. Your rotor can only be fired twice each rotation(per valve). Well as you can notice in the attached Flynn design, that they fire like 7 times each revolution, and with 3 'valves' simultaneously. In other words they compress the combined coil and magnet added flux strength, more times per one revolution. They have a much higher power density in one revolution. Now, I have made you a rotor suggestion that may or may not be interesting to you. But it will allow you to fire the valve MUCH more times in one revolution. Of course this asks for a higher impulse frequency, but this is no problem even to regular silicon steel laminates. Yes it is only a fast crude demo and will give saturation problems in this exact layout (unless you lower you combines flux strength) but I am sure you get the idea/principle of how/why it works.

See also the attached movie.
Thanks


JackH

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Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
« Reply #528 on: April 16, 2007, 05:02:35 AM »



Later,,,,,,,JackH
« Last Edit: October 01, 2007, 03:36:40 AM by JackH »

Nali2001

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Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
« Reply #529 on: April 16, 2007, 08:38:16 AM »
Hallo Jack and thanks for your input. One thing I find curious. And that is the required low speed of the system. I mean this silicon steel is used at 50 and 60hz and should be reasonably good up to 400hz. And running a motor at 1500rpm is like 25hz (or 50 depents how you look at it.). So you are way under the rating of the silicon steel. It kind of sounds to me that the valve has a problem of not fast enough collapsing the fields. Remember once the coils field collapses, the flux of the magnet returns there (through the coil/core area). It is very likely that this action in itself is an 'power generating event', that sets an counter flux up again. So in other words the back emf of the coil, and the generating event from the 'returning' magnet's flux, severely restart an instant "flux shutdown" in the system hence the need for a low system rpm.
Maybe
« Last Edit: April 16, 2007, 07:16:58 PM by Nali2001 »

JackH

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Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
« Reply #530 on: April 17, 2007, 04:24:21 AM »


Later,,,,,,,JackH
« Last Edit: October 01, 2007, 03:44:45 AM by JackH »

Nali2001

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Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
« Reply #531 on: April 17, 2007, 06:32:48 PM »
Hallo Jack. Well I guess you won’t explain this one, and I don’t blame you at all if you don’t. But I really would like to know how in the world you manage to get a valve in the rotor itself. I mean magnets, coils and enough steel to prevent saturation AND a hole for the axle…  must be one of you best guarded secrets.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2007, 10:50:25 PM by Nali2001 »

JackH

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Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
« Reply #532 on: April 18, 2007, 05:00:19 AM »


Later,,,,,,,JackH
« Last Edit: October 01, 2007, 03:47:39 AM by JackH »

gaby de wilde

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Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
« Reply #533 on: May 03, 2007, 02:56:53 PM »
Hello Nali2001,

Well as soon as I get the patents back or there clasified, I wont tell.

Even If the patents end up being classified or as soon as I get them back, I'll tell all here.

Really it was not a very big problem getting the valve in the rotor on a big motor.  When you have a valve in the rotor you only need to fire the coils once per rev.  While the rotor is north and the field is north, you fire the coils, you get push of north and pull to the south.

Later,,,,,,,JackH


thanks Jack  :)

JackH

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Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
« Reply #534 on: May 16, 2007, 04:59:27 AM »


Thank you,    JackH

« Last Edit: October 01, 2007, 03:53:30 AM by JackH »

dingbat

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Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
« Reply #535 on: May 16, 2007, 03:19:14 PM »
Looks good Jack.

Does it mean that your big backer didn't come through?

Quote
Hello Honk,

Well the motor is completly built, just waiting to be able to buy the magnets and the copper wire to wind the coils.

However I think I have a new invester lined up.  He came over the other night and was really impressed.    I think he will be buying 9 to 10 shares.   Also he wants to go into business togather.   He owns the largest machine shop in Ohio.   In fact he wants to change his shop over to building the new motor when its ready.  He has his aturney working on a contract between us.  Should be some money up front for that.

By the way , I all most got my new gravity wheel going.   Maybe another week to finish it up.   This new invester is just giving me the materials to finish it up.

Later,,,,,,,,JackH

Charlie_V

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Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
« Reply #536 on: May 17, 2007, 04:41:50 AM »
Hello Jack,

I was wondering, your motors use a lot of aluminum.  Aluminum is not the best material to use when there are changing magnetic fields about.  They produce eddy currents which can really reduce efficiency.  I would suggest polycarbonate, its strong, very machinable (especially since aluminum tends to bind up alot - I hate machining aluminum), and has no magnetic interaction as far as eddy currents (its a really good electric insulator).  Plus its really cheap!  It usually comes in a variety of colors, normally clear, gray, or a translucent black.  You can always go back and spray paint things so to hide the internal secrets of your device.

Your motor sounds/looks very interesting.  Keep up the good work, and best of luck.

Charlie

ADDED - I also thought, if you could tune your coils such that the electrical driving circuit was in resonance, that would probably increase your efficiency.  You might not need as much energy input if you did that.  Just a thought.

JackH

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Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
« Reply #537 on: May 17, 2007, 05:06:05 AM »


Later,,,,,,,JackH
« Last Edit: October 01, 2007, 03:51:46 AM by JackH »

dingbat

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Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
« Reply #538 on: May 17, 2007, 02:38:46 PM »
Quote
They tryed to get me to except only $10,000.00 to get full rights to all that I have worked for for 7 years and any thing I invent in the future.  Well I was told that they would buy 9 or 10 shares, but well thay turned out to be lawyer freeks, the contract they wanted me to sign, I just could not except. and I was turned down.

Sounds like lawyers.

Quote
I have been looking for a store to buy polycarbonate, but have not found anyplace to buy it in sheets.   Can you tell me where I can buy sheets of this stuff in about 1/2" thickness.

Laird Plastics, GE Polymers, or any large plastic supplier should have it.  Don't expect it to be much cheaper than aluminum though.  It is pretty pricey stuff.  I called GE Poymer Shapes for a quote.  Current price is $350 for 4x8x1/2 in quantities less than 5 sheets.  1/2" thickness is the thickest standard size for GE.  3/8 and 1/4 are common as well.

Ge Polymer shapes
2554 Needmore rd
Dayton, OH
937.276.3921

Laird Plastics
2066 Valley St
Dayton, OH 45404
(800) 873-8416



Charlie
Quote
(especially since aluminum tends to bind up alot - I hate machining aluminum)

If you don't have the spindle speed, coolant and feed to be extremely aggressive, try about 2400RPM, 24 inches/minute, always climb cut, use Ticn coated 1/2" 4 flute end mills.  HSS is good enough with Ticn coating.  I wouldn't bother with carbide.  Keep some water soluble oil on the tool if possible.  If I can't mist, I usually use full strength water soluable oil right on the cut.  I can cut all day long like this in most grades of aluminum.  Some are better than others for cutting, but most will cut fine with these cutting parameters.  Use regular (square) end mills, not ball nose, to get out all of the material.  Only finish with ball nose end mills.  They will really tend to want to load up.

The Ticn coating is essential.  It is much better than Tin (gold) coating for aluminum, from my experience.  Tin coating will take on some of the aluminum and start to load up.  Ticn cuts much freer than Tin.  It is well worth the few extra bucks if you are cutting aluminum.

I also recommend it for cutting anything abrasive that tends to wear tools.  It is much harder than Tin coating and holds an edge very well, even on HSS cutters.  I find Ticn coated HSS tools to be superior to carbide cutters in aluminum or abrasive materials (ren, polyiso foam, mdf, plastics, etc.)

Charlie_V

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Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
« Reply #539 on: May 17, 2007, 06:50:44 PM »
I use http://www.mcmaster.com/ for my polycarbonate.  I don't buy bulk though.  But you can get sheets of it 4'x4'x0.5" for 250 dollars.  They are a pretty good company too, but can be pricey on some things.

Thanks for the Aluminum milling tips.  But, I think I'll still just try to avoid working with aluminum.  Steel, iron, plastics are better for me, I'm only a beginner so I'll stick to the easy stuff.  If aluminum is going to pose a problem in Jack's motor, it will be in the rotor section, not in the coils.  The rotor will have some sort of magnetic field as it spins around - either by permanent magnets placed in it or simple induction between the coils/cores and itself.  If the rotor has the ability to "see" the aluminum, there will be a loss as it spins by.  Eddy currents will set up in the aluminum and it will put extra drag on the axial - try dropping a permanent magnet down a copper tube, you'll see what I mean.  Its probably no big deal right now, but later when Jack starts trying to push performance, it can help.

Ok to explain that resonance I was talking about.  Electrical and mechanical systems are very analogous to each other.  So imagine that your coils are like large weights - that is their mechanical equivalent.  Right now you are trying to push those large weights (by applying a voltage to them).  I'm sure that Jack is periodically turning the coils off then on, at predetermined times to drive the rotor (he doesn't just leave them on constantly).  So Jack's system oscillates.  Mechanically, its a lot easier to make something oscillate back and forth if you have a spring and a weight.  Then you can just tap the weight at a specific time and it will swing back and forth with ease.  If you tap it at a particular instance each time (aka with a frequency) you can get the weight to move the most distance with the same amount of energy.  At that particular frequency, you achieve what is known as resonance.  Tapping too fast or too slow from this point will cause the weight to travel a smaller distance. 

In electric circuits, a spring is equivalent to a capacitor.  And the coil (like I mentioned earlier) is equivalent to the weight.  So right now you have no capacitor (no spring).  Add a capacitor of the right value and you can dramatically lower the amount of energy it takes to drive the coils while keeping the same performance.  There are different ways to arrange things too.  Like you can put the capacitor parallel with your coil to make the current in the coils very small, or you can put the capacitor in series with each coil to make the current very larger - this one is probably what you want since higher current means bigger magnetic field.  This won't mean it takes more power, with bigger current comes lower voltage across the coil and smaller current means bigger voltage.

If you know what frequency you drive the coil with I can give you a simple formula to figure out what value of capacitors you would need.

Regards,
Charlie