Author Topic: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor (Read 303144 times)

Honk · « **Reply #330 on:** February 09, 2007, 08:58:31 PM »

Thank you, I'm glad you like my Coil Booster idea.

All "puls" have an "e" by now. Sometimes my spelling get all wrong.

Do you really think the air gap matters that much? The increased force from the valve
will always be there. It does not matter if the flux comes from electricity or a magnet.
Please see the graph I have attached. It show force at a distance at predefined flux.
This very useful magnet calculator is for free, but you need to register.
Follow this link. http://www.imstrading.com/cgi-bin/flux-graphs?page=fluxgraphs
I have used this tool before when I designed an ironless axial flux pancake motor.

As long as Jack can turn the flux on/off from the magnets then there is power
to be used for work. I'm actually planing a Hilden Brand motor of my own and
the gap in my design is so far only 0.2mm, but I can go as low as 0.1mm.
I believe it's possible to use this narrow gap, because I got a friend who is
working at a facility that cuts metal by laser. Their machines are pretty accurate.
I just draw the stuff I need in AutoCad and then he returns the metal pieces to me.

MeggerMan · « **Reply #331 on:** February 10, 2007, 02:18:15 AM »

Hi Honk,
No it needs to be much closer than 1mm or maybe even 0.1mm.

The simulations I have done have a gap of 0.0127mm

Femm shows that for a neo magnet of 1" OD and 1" length, 200 turns of 0.8mm wire, and steel sleeve of 0.4" thick and pole pieces 1" square in cross section, the ideal current is 0.25A @ 0.044 V (about 10mW)

(http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m25/kingrs/valve_plot2.jpg)
(http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m25/kingrs/JackHValve0.jpg)

JackH · « **Reply #332 on:** February 10, 2007, 02:57:29 AM »

Hello Rob,

Honk · « **Reply #333 on:** February 10, 2007, 09:41:37 AM »

Quote from: JackH on February 10, 2007, 02:57:29 AM

Another thing about this valve is that it will not become over unity untill you get up to a 2 in" permanent magnet. I tryed it with 1 in" magnets and it was over unity but did not have any power to do things with.

All I know is that the bigger the magnet the more efficiency you will get.

Later,,,,,,JackH

Hi Jack.
Nice work. I look forward to see your 5HP motor in overunity action.

I have some questions if that's OK with you.

1) You have told us that the valve is not that efficient at high RPM.
Can this be caused by the "Flux build up time" in the coil?
It can be up to 50ms long & if the rotor spinns to fast it will miss the magnetic flux.

2) When you mention a 2" magnet, do you mean a cube at 2x2x2 inch?

3) I'm planning to build a Hilden Brand motor with 3 valves myself. I'll use N52 magnets.
Do you think 12W is enough to equalize the coil to the magnet?

4) How do you estimate the number of turns in a coil to fit a certain size of magnet?

Best regards and good luck.
I will love to see your latest motor doing some heavy overunity work.

MeggerMan · « **Reply #334 on:** February 10, 2007, 10:06:23 AM »

Hi Jack,
I can easily change the sim to a 2" magnet but I think the results will be the same.
This may be a factor to do with ideal current.
I do not think that the Femm simulation is showing anything like results you are seeing. Wether the permeability is wrong or something, I am not sure.

The masking tape represents a good gap and is probably larger than my simulation gap.

What I need to see is a graph of lifting force against current for the 1", 2" and 3" magnets versus iron cores.

Could you do a series of tests for me?
Try lifting a weight with different amounts of current in the coil.
Say from 1/10 of the current you used in your previous test and go up in steps of 1/10 of the current.
Then repeat it with an iron core instead of the magnet core.
I can then plot the results on a graph for you.
This way I can tell you exactly what the optimum current will be by looking at the results.

Regards
Rob

Low-Q · « **Reply #335 on:** February 10, 2007, 11:17:24 AM »

Quote from: JackH on March 11, 2006, 05:58:55 AM

Hello All,
Just would like to check in with you on the Hilden-Brand Magnet motors. The URL below will show several pictures of motors that I have built. Two of them are tested to produce over 120% efficiency.

http://www.keelynet.com/energy/hildenbrand.htm

However since these pictures were posted I have made several major break throughs. I have found out that the valve that I invented werks much better at a low rpm. I have built a motor that was especially built to operate at around 600 rpms. This new motor has been tested on a prony brake and the voltage/current was monitored. Input was 2.2 watts and the output was over 56 watts. At a pull down of around 200 rpm this motor exhibited over 500% efficiency. I think that means it to be over 400% over unity. More will be posted about this motor in the future.

I am currently working on a much larger motor using eight 2" dia X 2" long N48 magnets. This new motor should produce an exceptional low end torque at around 500 to 600 rpm. I am hoping for around 1 hp with an input of around 68 watts. Will post more info on this motor when tested, should take me around four weeks to build.

Later,,,,,JackH

If I understand you right, you can actually couple a generator to the motor shaft, and generate DC current in the motor coils. All you need to do is to manually start the rotation, and then, in theory, the motor will encrease RPM's infinetly?
Then you can get all power generated, beyond 100%, out from the generator, yust to maintain constant RPM, without putting anything in?

How do you then make the generator work only one way - as the motor itself will work as a generator as well?

Br.

Vidar

Honk · « **Reply #336 on:** February 10, 2007, 11:36:29 AM »

You don't understand the valve, Vidar.

You don't get more RPM by increasing the voltage beyond the valves capacity.
The valve shall have a small amount of power to release 4 times greater force.
If you apply more power you just destroy the magnet.
When you control the valve the right way, then you can use the extra force
to get over unity from a motor.

The power applied from the generator must be controlled before feeding it
back to the motor, or else the valves could get to much power.

JackH · « **Reply #337 on:** February 11, 2007, 05:01:05 AM »

Hello Honk,

Ergo · « **Reply #338 on:** February 11, 2007, 08:55:46 AM »

Excuse me for asking, but how could the motor in your picture
ever work any good without the iron jacket?
The magnet flux path will continue to pass through the rotor when the coil is turned off.
When made this way you must loose most of the efficiency. Why not the jacket?

And why do you need insulated Iron powder for the jacket?
You have used soft magnetic iron in your previous motors and they have worked fine.
In order to use Iron powder it must be compressed into the desired shape under very
hard heat and pressure. This is very difficult to accomplish without the right machines.

Honk · « **Reply #339 on:** February 11, 2007, 09:45:36 AM »

I'm curious to?

acp · « **Reply #340 on:** February 11, 2007, 10:10:38 AM »

Maybe because there is an air gap between the laminated field pieces and the rotor, and that there is no gap between electromagnet and the permanent magnet between the laminated field pieces. therefor with current off, magnetic flux will take the easiest path. I was allready thinking if it was really necessary to have the jacket around the permanent mag, and not the electromag and perm mag just as close as possible as in Jack's new arrangement.

What I'm curious about is where the magnets fit in in the rotor, Jacks drawing doesn't show them, ( he can't give it all away on a plate for us

)

Regards

Albert

acp · « **Reply #341 on:** February 11, 2007, 10:24:47 AM »

Hi Honk,

That graph you showed a few posts ago of force to distance of a permanent mag seems strange, it seems to show a linear relationship between force and distance. This doesn't seem to be the case in real tests I've done with a permanent magnet. I think the relationship for permanent mag is force = inverse of distance squared( somebody correct me please if I'm wrong, at any rate I'm certain it isn't linear as the graph seems to show). By the way the relationship for force to distance for an electromagnet drops off far quicker than for a permanent magnet. For example I have an electromagnet that can hold 135Lbs for 3 Watts of energy, but I can easily hold a steel plate 1 - 2 mm's with my fingers above it with it switched on. I think this wouldn't be possible with a permanent magnet that could hold the same amount.

Regards

Albert

Honk · « **Reply #342 on:** February 11, 2007, 12:09:31 PM »

Hi Albert.

It does acctually drop off, but I had to increase the distance to 5mm to see it.
When playing around with the N50 magnets I got, they feel pretty much like the graph.
They do drop off, but it's not that noticable at close range.

By the way, did you use a piece of masking tape when you tested the electromagnet
at 135Lbs of lifting capacity. Else you will get a false reading, I think....?
An electromagnet have the strongest flux in the center of the iron core.
I believe this is why a magnet feels stronger. It has a more uniform flux over the surface.

If Jack doesn't need the valve to accomplish overtunity, then his patent will be obsolete. But I suspect that he will loose some flux through the rotor without
the valve because of the very tiny gap he got. Is is approx 0.1mm.
I to have noticed that there is not much room to accommodate a magnet below
the coil, but it is possible if he makes a flat electromagnet.

Honk · « **Reply #343 on:** February 11, 2007, 12:53:42 PM »

Hi.

I tried and tested the idea with the magnet outside an iron jacket.
To get accurate readings I used some silicon steel I got. I tried both ferrite and Neos.
I'm sorry to say that no matter how I tested it I could not get all the flux to take the
shortest path. As soon as I mounted a piece of silicon steel simulating the rotor some
of the flux from the magnet took that way. I tried gaps up to 1 mm.
I also tried different positions of the magnet between the rotor steel and iron core.
I believe Jack will use the valve on his new motor anyway, or else it will not be working at max efficiency.

yorkshireminer · « **Reply #344 on:** February 11, 2007, 10:54:08 PM »

Quote from: Honk on February 11, 2007, 09:45:36 AM

I'm curious to?

Is Jack using pulsed DC or AC If he was using AC wouldn't he be changing the polarity of the coil core alernatively shorting the flux through the coil core on one phase of the cycle and then reinforcing it in the other phase of the cycle, and so into the Rotor.

Deep regards

Yorkshire miner

News:

User Menu

Author Topic: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor (Read 303144 times)

Honk

Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor

MeggerMan

Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor

JackH

Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor

Honk

Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor

MeggerMan

Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor

Low-Q

Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor

Honk

Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor

JackH

Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor

Ergo

Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor

Honk

Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor

acp

Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor

acp

Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor

Honk

Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor

Honk

Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor

yorkshireminer

Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor