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Author Topic: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor  (Read 272718 times)

Offline JackH

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Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
« Reply #285 on: February 06, 2007, 01:21:34 AM »
Hello Honk,
« Last Edit: March 01, 2007, 07:27:12 AM by JackH »

Offline argona369

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Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
« Reply #286 on: February 06, 2007, 03:20:27 AM »
 ::)
« Last Edit: February 06, 2007, 10:08:48 AM by argona369 »

Offline JackH

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Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
« Reply #287 on: February 06, 2007, 03:40:21 AM »
This is what I am tolking about.

All you need to do to check it out is run a test without the permanent magnet.  And then run a test with the permanent magnet.  Make sure that you use only 8 Watts of electricity or you will overpower the permanent magnet.

That's all for that.

Later,,,,,,Jack W Hildenbrand

Offline Ergo

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Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
« Reply #288 on: February 06, 2007, 09:07:16 AM »
I?ll take a whack at it.
Is what your saying is that you have a soft iron core
3? long with a coil at one end. On the other end you have a
Permanent magnet. The coil is energized in opposition
to the permanent magnetic field that is traveling through the
the soft iron core, and the ?working end is the
coil end of the soft iron core. Also there?s two
of these assembly?s  put together magnets touching.

I don't get it. It doesn't sound like the magnetic valve shown by the picture.
Could you please make a drawing to clarify?

Offline acp

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Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
« Reply #289 on: February 06, 2007, 11:27:14 AM »
Hi Jack,  Thanks for the answer. I don't know if the sims are accurate, but it does show that the permanent magnet makes no difference to the strength of the valve, at least in the simulation. why bother with the magnet when you can use a piece of iron and get the same results?

I would be very interested to know the difference in attractive force when your valve has the permanent magnet replaced with an identical sized piece of iron. and the same power input. Would you be interested in doing that? This would prove that the sims are not accurate, and that the addition of the permanent magnet makes a difference.

regards

Albert

Offline MeggerMan

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Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
« Reply #290 on: February 06, 2007, 11:53:37 AM »
Hi Albert,

Not sure what simulation you are using but everything I have done in Femm 4 proves it does as Jack has suggested.

(http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m25/kingrs/Femm4Hilden-BrandMagnetMotor.jpg)

Regards
Rob

Offline Honk

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Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
« Reply #291 on: February 06, 2007, 12:59:33 PM »
What you are doing is totally over powering the permanent magnet using 26 Watts. When you do that you are puting the north pool of the coil core in the same way the north pool of the permanent magnet is.  When you over power the coil core it will try to de-magnitize the permanent magnet.

Later,,,,,Jack W Hildenbrand

Thanks very much Jack. Very nice of you to take the time to explain it carefully for me.
Now I understand what you meant by de-magnetizing the inserted magnet. ;)
I imagined that the flux from the N48 magnet would continue to flow parallel to the
electro magnets flux even when the power was increased beyond 10W.
I thought this was how you could give your motors more current when loaded down at
the sacrifice of efficience when the magnets flux became lesser than the electro flux.
Your motor is more complicated then I originally thought and I bow deeply to the
effort you have invested in bringing us such wonderful technology.  ;D

Best Regards / Honk
« Last Edit: February 06, 2007, 02:46:37 PM by Honk »

Offline acp

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Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
« Reply #292 on: February 06, 2007, 01:20:27 PM »
Hi Meggerman, Is your sim with current applied? if so, a lot of the flux is still being short circuited down the iron sleeve. For what purpose is the curved metal piece at the bottom? You say it works as Jack says, what force values did you get for your sim?
If you want to calculate force in FEMM, you must have an air gap in order to integrate. Also try using a finer resolution on the metal parts, this will give better results.



For me, I'm still confused about Jacks valve, In my simulation I adjusted the current so that the flux density was similar in the iron sleeve and the magnet, this means all of the flux will be used to attract the side piece, and none will be shortcircuited down the iron sleeve as when no current is applied. What I would find interesting is if jack would replace the magnet with a lump of iron the same size as the magnet ( it would be a pure electromagnet then) and see how much force that generates.  If it generates the same force then the magnet isn't doing anything. 



Best regards

Albert

Offline JackH

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Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
« Reply #293 on: February 06, 2007, 04:08:56 PM »
Hello Albert,
« Last Edit: March 01, 2007, 06:50:39 AM by JackH »

Offline Liberty

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Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
« Reply #294 on: February 06, 2007, 04:29:00 PM »
Hello Jack,

Have you tried experimenting with different coil shapes and types? 

Here is an attempt at a picture to show you an idea that I wonder if you have considered?

                             ===coil
                             ===
                             === 
       |--------------------------------|
       |      Magnet valve jacket            | Laminated
       |                                             |Steel
       |--------------------------------|
                             ===
                             ===
                             ===coil

Coil not length of valve jacket but stacked up high (like tesla's bifilar coil, layered over small area of valve jacket) instead of the length of the valve jacket.  Wonder if this would reduce the coupling of back emf in coil while still allowing the magnetic valve to work?  Was thinking it might help reduce power input requirements to your motor during operation, if it still allows your magnet valve to work right? 

An alternative and maybe better idea would be to use two narrow high stacked tesla bifilar coils, one at each end of valve stacked high rather than a long solenoid coil shape.  A strategy to reduce back emf coupling into coil to help reduce motor input power required during operation. 

Offline acp

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Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
« Reply #295 on: February 06, 2007, 08:26:13 PM »
Hi Jack,  For what it's worth, I did a few more simulations using FEMM, I really don't know if it's accurate or not, although I did manage to model Flynns idea successfully with FEMM which showed similar results to what people were getting in real life.

The new sims are using 8 Watts power in all cases. The side bar is as close to the magnet coil assembly as it will go in the program.


The first pic is using 8 Watts power to the coil with the magnet in place, You can see that the flux lines are denser through the magnet than through the iron sleeve, therefor the coil is not overloading the permanent magnet. 

Attractive force = 3008 Newtons

(http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/6830/withmagnetrq2.gif)





This second pic shows the same setup same power(8Watts to the coil), except the magnet has been replaced with a block of iron.

Attractive force = 3000 Newtons.

(http://img127.imageshack.us/img127/1120/withironbx1.gif)




This third pic shows how you described I should do the test, that is with no magnet and no iron to replace the magnet, same 8 Watts power to the coil as the other tests

Attractive force = 1990 Newtons

(http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/2581/withairnm8.gif)


You are right jack, that in comparison with the test with no magnet and no iron ( just the coil and iron sleeve) ther is less power than with the magnet in place.

What puzzles me though is that there is hardly a difference when you replace the magnet with the iron ( 8 Newtons difference), therefore in my eyes the magnet is superfluous. I am curious as to how this all adds up in real life as what I have done is just a computer simulation. I'm not trying to prove you wrong, I am genuinely interested.

It occured to  me that it would be very easy for you to machine a block of iron the same size as the magnet and run your holding test again, This also seems to be what you were asking advice about a few days ago (How much power would an electromagnet require to hold same amount as your valve etc.). I am just trying to help.

Best regards

Albert

Offline MeggerMan

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Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
« Reply #296 on: February 06, 2007, 09:24:28 PM »
Hi Liberty,
The disc coil makes very little difference to the flux switching effect.
The simulation shows a very slight increase in flux density in the flux gate.

Standard arrangement with 15mA @ 0.1V
(http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m25/kingrs/Hildenbrand_valve_std.jpg)

Disc arrangement with 15mA @ 0.1V
(http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m25/kingrs/Hildenbrand_valve_disc.jpg)

Disc arrangement with no power
(http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m25/kingrs/Hildenbrand_valve_disc_NoPwr.jpg)
Regards
Rob

Offline MeggerMan

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Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
« Reply #297 on: February 06, 2007, 11:52:30 PM »
Hi Albert,
Yes, I have just run a lot of simulations with a gap to measure the force (0.001 inch).


So yes you can get a difference in force but only with a very narrow gap and at low energy levels, no where near enough to saturate the core.
So in conclusion it looks like there is a lot of force there but only under certain conditions. As a lifting magnet it is ideal, but for use in a motor, you need a very clever design to complete the magnetic circuit.
This is what I believe Jack has but cannot tell us until his patent is complete.

Regards
Rob

Offline Liberty

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Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
« Reply #298 on: February 06, 2007, 11:54:54 PM »
Hi Meggerman,

Will your FEMM program calculate the back EMF in the magnet valve coil under motor operating conditions?  Or will it allow you to estimate the amount of back EMF percent difference between the two different shaped coils?  It would be interesting to see if the amount of back EMF is less with a narrow (tall) coil in the magnet valve, compared to a longer coil that goes the length of the magnet valve (solenoid coil).

Nice pics Meggerman!

Thought Jack might possibly benefit from this comparison? ::)

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
« Reply #299 on: February 07, 2007, 12:10:53 AM »
Hi Albert,

Thanks for your simulations and may I ask you to include a fourth picture of the same setup when there is no 8W input to the coil and the permanent magnet is in place?  (Just for completeness and please include the force also.)

You conclude that the permanent magnet is not needed. Well, if you compare your first picture with your third one, it clearly shows that without the magnet the force is much less than with it. And do NOT compare this to the second picture when you replaced the magnet with a similar sized iron core!
Why? Because with the iron core in place you created a magnetic path much more flux conductive than in any of the other cases: the iron core has got a permeability much higher than either the permanent magnet or the air, so you created an electromagnet with more iron core volume than in the other two cases, ok?
So for me the conclusion from your simulations is that Jack's valve adds up the fluxes of the electromagnet and that of the permanent magnet. 

Regards,
Gyula

Edit: And your puzzle is answered by the fact that the iron core's permeability "supplied" (when you replaced the magnet with it)  the lack of flux coming from the permanent magnet (which sounds strange I know but if you try changing the permeability of the iron core in the simulation then you can easily 'tune out' the 8 Newton force difference).