Author Topic: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor (Read 302876 times)

sarmasio · « **Reply #150 on:** August 02, 2006, 07:35:01 AM »

Hi,

the outputcore is just iron, but there is another image,
I hope this is a bit clearer.

Thanks,

Adalbert.

Liberty · « **Reply #151 on:** August 02, 2006, 08:34:37 AM »

Quote from: Light on August 02, 2006, 03:15:20 AM

Thank you guys.
Yes, Nali, I've tried coil without magnet (but solid core instead) and did not notice any difference. But it's hard to say exactly without proper measurements (just used rpm compare).
Looking at Jack's pictures I believe his rotor works against solid block of stator (like on the picture below). Yes it runs. But I found, that in this setup ('magnet gate', like SMOT but with magnet) it runs much faster.

Now I'm trying to switch polarity to reverse field right after 'dead spot' (in the middle of the 'stator'), to get another pulse at the same spot (seems it's became just a pulse motor, not a Valve, but for me it seems more efficient). I already tried this with magnet (Valve) and completely destroyed pretty powerful magnet (field of steel bushing worked against field of magnet and demagnetised it).

Still interested in Liberty's thought about solid state arrangement of this model (I think if Jack patented his idea there's nothing wrong if we will discuss some other possibilities).

Thank you, hartiberlin ,
But as you can see it's a little different setup, I think.
Will keep in picture if find some improvements.
(still can't open even my own postings, work just by 'reply' mode; something wrong with my comp I guess...not sure if pictures come through, sorry if so).

Hi Light,

I would try to set the output coils between two of Jack's valves. You could make a ring out of them. The core between valves should be laminated silicon steel or maybe magnetite. The core should be twice as long as the magnetic valve shield to allow the magnetic flux to fall back to the valve instead of the next magnet. You may need to have a paper gap between the laminate core and the magnetic valve to assist in valve operation (this may help it to continue to switch with a small air gap?) I would pulse the coils all at the same time. The output coils would have to be in phase if placed in series so the output does not cancel out. I included two visual pictures except the core in the pictures is not long enough (should be twice or more as long as the magnetic valve length, I would guess to allow the flux to switch back to the valve).
This is all just a guess, as I have not tried any of Jack's valves or solid state generator.
I think you could use any number of valves and collection coils, (assuming that this works). It would still be interesting to see how Jack set his solid state generator up...

Hope this helps.

MeggerMan · « **Reply #152 on:** August 02, 2006, 12:10:45 PM »

Hi,
The latest design I did last night that was based on 50mm wide laminated steel sheet was simulated in Femm 4.
I am not going to attribute the design of the valve to Jack as his idea is taken from the Nasa boots, who probably took it from someone else so for now I will refer to is as a magnetic valve.

I kept increasing the current until the flux was hardly changing.
+50mA to turn the switch on and -10 mA to turn it fully off.
I could just let it drop to 0mA but the was still a bit of flux left(0.1T) in the core.

I plan to buy about 10-20 of 25mm Sq by 12.5mm height n38 magnets.
Also for measurement I will get a AD22151 linear hall sensor to place tight inside the core to monitor the flux density.
http://www.analog.com/UploadedFiles/Data_Sheets/5074535122786366627AD22151_a.pdf

It is important that people remember that to switch the flux, only a very small current is needed even with this setup which is 0.5m wide and 0.13m hieght and 0.05m depth, weighting over 20Kg.
The power is 0.2Watts(500 turns 0.2mm copper wire for each magnetic valve) so if you are pumping 30 watts and over then you have missed the point altogether.

Measurement of coil current and flux density is important to getting this setup to work.
Thats not to say that as soon as you load up the output coil the switch will stop switching, this is where testing will show up this issue.

I can get 8 output coils on the two main yokes of the core, but these were not shown in the simulation I did.

Regards

Rob

Liberty · « **Reply #153 on:** August 02, 2006, 03:38:15 PM »

One additional note and thought on the pictures of the Solid State Alternators: The valve should be tested separate from the circuit first to make sure that it is operating correctly. The paper insulator may not be needed, because the Lentz law that would be in effect, would feed back a magnetic field that is the same as the poles of the magnetic valve under load, but slightly delayed. This action (Lentz law) may actually help to shut off the magnetic flow from the magnetic valves with a short repel field, due to pulling power out of the device. It may have a limit as to how much power you can develop or more likely, how fast you can pulse the coils for maximum effectiveness. From what Jack tells us, a slower pulse works better. So 60hz just might be a nice number. If you have enough coils to develop 120 volts, you would not need an inverter for household current.

gyulasun · « **Reply #154 on:** August 02, 2006, 09:26:33 PM »

Quote from: SGi on August 02, 2006, 02:11:37 AM

Why not use variable Crystal Oscillators to do the switching? Just a thought.

Like this one rated ajustable 1 Hz to 20 MHz temp. stable
http://www.onspec.co.uk/oscdetail.php?ID=17

Hi,

I cannot help but mention to you that the crystal oscillators included in your link are not adjustable continuously in the given frequency range (i.e. between 1Hz to 20 MHz), rather it means that they manufacture such crystal oscillators to any ONE particular (user defined) frequency within the given range and it can be only adjusted against aging.

A typically active crystal can be tuned by changing the reactances included in the oscillator circuit and the rate of pull generally is 1-2 kHz for each value of MHz, depending on the activity of the crystal: for instance you can adjust the output frequency of a 10 MHz crystal oscillator about 10 x 1 kHz=10 kHz to 10 x 2 kHz=20 kHz max while the stability does not suffer. For a 5 MHz crystal this is 5-10 kHz only.

If you look for continuously tunable frequency 'generator' you may consider the good old NE555 timer IC for purposes needed in this thread, there are many circuits with it on well searchable websites.

Regards
Gyula

Light · « **Reply #155 on:** August 03, 2006, 04:10:16 AM »

hartiberlin
"Where is the magnet and what are the black quaders ? Are these the iron cores ?
- Magnet is inside of the coil, in steel bushing. "Black quaders" are steel flatbars. Mild steel core.

"Do you have inside the blue coils an iron cylinder where a Neodym magnet resides ? What exactly kind of magnet ?
- Yes, mild steel bushing. Don't know, it's not ceramic (not black), not Neodium (not THAT strong), AlNiCo, probably; od3/4x3/4".

"How big and how strong and how much voltage and current do you need to switch it on ?
- 12V@3-4A (battery charger). Actually it works from 9V bat, but torque (rpm) is low.

"How did you manage to demagnetize it ? At which voltage and which current levels ?
- The same pulses but backwards (against magnet flux). It lost magnetism dramatically, can't hold a bolt...But now it seems it's getting stronger...Strange...

"How many windings do your coils have ?
- Gage 24, around 200 wind-s.

"Maybe try a different browser, IE 6.x SP1
- Where can I get it and why I do not have any problems with other sites? Mystery...

"Maybe user Light could just test this with just one valve and one
output coil
- I'll try...

Will keep in touch...

Liberty. Yes, it's interesting, but I thought regarding this model you can express you idea in drawing ("Now try to put a coil where the rotor magnets are for a solid state generator "). Thank you anyway.

Liberty · « **Reply #156 on:** August 03, 2006, 04:17:59 AM »

Light,

As far as using one valve, you could just put the core of the coil across each pole of the valve to see if it will pulse. But you might want to check your valve and adjust it the way that Jack said: He tests how much weight the magnet will pick up, then takes the shell with the coil (without the magnet inside) and sets the power on the coil to the same strength of picking up the weight as the magnet did.

Hopefully those pictures were helpful for something to consider. Just some thoughts to kick around. Good luck on your experiments. I am continuing to developing the magnet motor that I made and am too wrapped up in it to try the other things with you, but I like to follow developments and experiments that are on this thread. Hopefully you will get your set up to work like you want it to. Have fun.

hartiberlin · « **Reply #157 on:** August 03, 2006, 07:00:59 AM »

Quote from: Light on August 03, 2006, 04:10:16 AM

hartiberlin
- Yes, mild steel bushing. Don't know, it's not ceramic (not black), not Neodium (not THAT strong), AlNiCo, probably; od3/4x3/4".

Hi Light, many thanks for the infos.
Ohh, I see, AlNiCo, well these are especially bad for these purposes,
cause they demagnetize fast, as they don?t have a high Coercitive-force.
So -Hc is very low and so they demagnetize very fast, when you
apply a reverse field.
So better use strong Neodym magnets for this case.
Many thanks.

hartiberlin · « **Reply #158 on:** August 03, 2006, 07:08:11 AM »

@Rob,
how did you come up with the 50 mA and 4 Volts ?
Could this somehow seen from the simulation
or did you already actually build this thing ?
( I have not yet worked with coils in FEMM, just with magnets)

MeggerMan · « **Reply #159 on:** August 03, 2006, 10:10:23 AM »

Hi Stefan,
See attached file.
Femm allows you to specify a material called 0.2mm wire in a circuit.
You specify the number of turns as +ve or -ve indicating the turns direction (into the paper or out).
You can also specify the current for the wire, it works out the volts drop and tells you in the circuit info.
One of the preferences is the depth of the whole simulation, I set this to 1 inch (25mm).
If you increase the depth, the volts drop goes up and so does the power used.
This is the depth of the core itself, but I think it may not take into account the distance between the two halfs of the coil you draw.
If you increase the distance between the two coil blocks the program does not know they are part of the same coil.
So in reality the power used will most likely be double. ie. 0.4 watts

Regards

Rob

MeggerMan · « **Reply #160 on:** August 03, 2006, 11:44:58 PM »

I am just working out the fine details of this core using 4 stacked magnets (N38 50mm height x 25mm x 25mm) and 0.9mm (20SWG) copper wire for the 500 turns on each of the 3 main limbs.
Using much thicker wire allows the volts drop to go down and power consumption to also go down dramatically.
Using more magnets increases the flux slightly whilst still using the same power to switch the field, but more important gives space for the switch windings themselves.
The total weight of copper for the windings is about 3.5 to 4 kG or 600m of 0.9mm diameter wire.
I will also include 2 small slots for the tiny linear hall effect probes, this way I can monitor when and how well the switch is working.
The output windings can then be added once the switch is proved to work.

Regards

Rob

MeggerMan · « **Reply #161 on:** August 04, 2006, 12:51:04 AM »

Sorry the file is in rar format, but you should be able to un-rar it.
This has the following fixes:
1. Winding wire is much thicker (0.9mm).
2. Power consumption is about 0.04 watts (1/10 of the previous).
3. Depth of core is now correct - 50mm.
4. Double height of magnets (12 magnets).
5. Better overall core shape, squarer windows.

Just needs the probe windows adding.

+50mA

(http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m25/kingrs/RobSolidStateGenRev2_a.jpg)

-25mA

(http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m25/kingrs/RobSolidStateGenRev2_b.jpg)

Regards

Rob

hartiberlin · « **Reply #162 on:** August 04, 2006, 01:32:47 AM »

Hi Rob,
many thanks for posting your new FEM circuit.
I did not know that one could define a "circuit property" also and
apply to a magnet wire ( copper wire) a current in this program.

That is a very neat feature!

Are you sure the setting "series" is right ?
As in this coil space the wires are all in parallel if you look from the sideview, aren?t they ?
Or how is this defined in the program ?

What is the complex operator J x has to do with it ?
Can you also apply phase relationsships there ?
So can you also simulate AC timings with phase shiftings this way ?

Is it also possible to see with FEMM how much voltage an output coil would get ?
Probably not, as this would need a dnamic ssimulation as the output voltage
is just proportional to the d(phi)/dt inside the core piece of the output coil, right ?

hartiberlin · « **Reply #163 on:** August 04, 2006, 01:37:09 AM »

Hi Rob another question is,
if you will get so much wire into such a small coil space ?
Maybe simulate different coil spaces ( different big areas for them)
and have a look, if the simulation
will change..

dutchy1966 · « **Reply #164 on:** August 04, 2006, 08:19:48 AM »

Quote from: kingrs on August 04, 2006, 12:51:04 AM

Sorry the file is in rar format, but you should be able to un-rar it.
This has the following fixes:
1. Winding wire is much thicker (0.9mm).
2. Power consumption is about 0.04 watts (1/10 of the previous).

Hi Rob,

Good job putting all the effort in to create a nice simulation of the hildenbrand valve.
Just a little thought about the power consumption you mentioned. The power consumption is in my opinion only valid when there is no output current (coils). As soon as power is generated in whatever output coil there will be created a counter flux. This will make the valve to switch back as this counter flux is much stronger than the flux of the switching valve. Because of this, I think, your switching power should be much higher to prevent this from happening. (Or is here a chance that the whole thing starts to resonate....hmmm)
What do you think of this?

greetz,

Dutchy

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