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Author Topic: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor  (Read 250174 times)

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
« Reply #105 on: July 26, 2006, 10:35:46 AM »
Hi Rob,

I tried to imagine what you have suggested and I failed, sorry for this.

Could you (or someone else) make a simple hand drawing (even in Windows Paint) of how you mean the semi circle cutout of the rectangular slab?

It is ok that "the smaller the cross section, the higher the flux" but the limit for this is saturation, isn't it?

Thanks

Gyula

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Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
« Reply #105 on: July 26, 2006, 10:35:46 AM »

jake

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Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
« Reply #106 on: July 26, 2006, 01:51:22 PM »
Quote
Has nobody figured how this idea can be turned into a motor yet?


There are pictures of some motors Jack has constructed earlier in this thread - about page 12 or so.

Offline MeggerMan

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Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
« Reply #107 on: July 26, 2006, 02:58:52 PM »
Something like this:
(http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m25/kingrs/Femm4Hilden-BrandMagnetMotor.jpg)
(http://i100.photobucket.com/albums/m25/kingrs/Femm4Hilden-BrandMagnetMotorart.jpg)
Uses the following:
Total current = 0.008 Amps
Voltage Drop = 0.0557591 Volts
Flux Linkage = 0.0147367 Webers
Flux/Current = 1.84209 Henries
Voltage/Current = 6.96989 Ohms
Power = 0.000446073 Watts

Max flux is 1.2 Tesla

Regards

Rob

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
« Reply #107 on: July 26, 2006, 02:58:52 PM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
« Reply #108 on: July 26, 2006, 04:22:59 PM »
Hi Rob,

Thanks for the simulation and the picture, now I understand how you meant.

And now I also agree with your notice in your first message:

"The ideal way would be to get the flux to go through the whole rotor to another valve to complete a circuit."

Because that would seem to be the most efficient way of making use of all the flux coming from the permanent and the electromagnet.

Gyula

Offline MeggerMan

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Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
« Reply #109 on: July 26, 2006, 05:18:47 PM »
I did some more tests and I think I will scrap that as an idea, although there is loads of dense flux through the narrowed section, it is of not of any mechanical use outside of the core. You cannot get it to attract anything.
Looks good but is serves no useful purpose.

What is needed is something that looks like a south or north pole that is able to attract or repel a magnetic rotor or attract a steel rotor.

I am looking at another method at the moment, using 2 valves, 2 bars and an extra neo magnet between the 2 new bars, I will post an image later on.
The two valves will control the flux direction of the new neo magnet, in the two large bars.
Then using 3 x less powerful cermic 5 magnets for the rotor.
So 2 field poles and 3 arms on the rotor.
Its all theory, I need to get some laminates to try it out.

Regards

Rob

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
« Reply #109 on: July 26, 2006, 05:18:47 PM »
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Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
« Reply #110 on: July 27, 2006, 04:57:27 AM »
Hi Rob,
you have to scrap the last "c" shaped core piece form your stator !
Otherwise you just shortout the flux with which you attract the rotor !

Offline MeggerMan

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Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
« Reply #111 on: July 27, 2006, 09:15:25 AM »
Hi Stefan,
Yes, I realised this after a bit of thinking.
I have another idea to interleave the pole faces, with enough gap to prevent the flux bridging it without the rotor in proximity.
This is to enable the rotor to make the circuit for a greater rotation but this cannot be simulated in 2D it needs a 3D model.

Or I could just bring the pole faces very close together, it should end up that the force will be active for half the width of the rotor face minus the pole gap, it will drag after the centre point and the coil needs to be turned off slightly before centre point.

I will do some more Femm simulations and post the results.  In Femm it is possible to work out the force exerted on an object but I have not yet figured this out yet.

Regards

Rob

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
« Reply #111 on: July 27, 2006, 09:15:25 AM »
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Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
« Reply #112 on: July 27, 2006, 10:17:39 AM »
Hi Rob, the good part ofthe Hilden-Brandt motor is,
that it only needs very short pulses, when the rotor
is in the proximity of the stators to be attracted and
the rest of the time the coils can be off and the magnet
flux is shortouted via the cylinder ironcore around the magnet.
So it is a very efficient design to just use very low input power
and attract strongly a rotor, when the coils are energized.

Offline MeggerMan

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Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
« Reply #113 on: July 27, 2006, 11:34:12 AM »
Hi Stefan,
I also suspect that the initial current needs to be quite high and can tail off as the rotor reaches the centre point, with the pulse going off there will be a back emf as the field re-routes through the core steel surrounding the magnet. I'm not sure if this can be salvaged.

The power required for the switch is milliamps (about 10mA), provided the rotor is very very close to the stator. Larger gap = larger current.
Rather than use a cylinder magnet, I would be tempted to go for a square cross section magnet for the simple reason that it is easier to cut the laminations.

The laminations need to be step lapped for max flux, so I suppose you could build the feedback core from strips that a lapped into the main limbs.
Its like making a tight fitting jigsaw and a real hard task in itself.

Regards

Rob

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Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
« Reply #113 on: July 27, 2006, 11:34:12 AM »
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jake

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Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
« Reply #114 on: July 27, 2006, 01:23:41 PM »
Quote
Hi Rob, the good part ofthe Hilden-Brandt motor is,
that it only needs very short pulses, when the rotor
is in the proximity of the stators to be attracted and
the rest of the time the coils can be off and the magnet
flux is shortouted via the cylinder ironcore around the magnet.
So it is a very efficient design to just use very low input power
and attract strongly a rotor, when the coils are energized.

I respectfully disagree with this analysis.

You are not utilizing the flux at all most of the time.  You are short circuiting the flux to a completely useless path most of the time.  The magnets might as well not be there when the power is off.

Look at the design in the Flynn paper.  It has all of the advantages of the Hildenbrand "valve", and it utilizes the permanent magnet flux all of the time.

I believe a better arrangement would have the coil releasing the magnet momentarily, so that the pm flux would be "working" most of the time, not short circuited where it can do no useful work in the motor.

Note that the Flynn motor "locks" with the power off - full torque with no power applied - the magnets are shorted through the rotor, holding it at all times until power is applied momentarily to the coils to advance the rotor.  I believe this design makes much better use of the permanent magnets.  You get torque when the power is off, and torque when the power is on - using the pm flux 100% of the time, not just when the power is on.

The Flynn motor does better than just turning the flux on and off.  It leaves the flux on 100% of the time, and directs the flux to where it is needed in the circuit to apply force where it is needed to make the motor rotate.  This gives complete utilization of the available flux at all times.  What could be better?  Certainly shorting out the flux to a non-working path can't be better than using the flux at all times in a working path.

Please don't take this as an attack on the valve.  It is a very creative and noteworthy design.  I just think it should be re-arranged in a way that uses part of the rotor as the shorting path, such as Flynn does.  There has to be a better way to arrange the circuit such that the flux is being used when it is in the off position.  Another factor is that the valve apparently allows the use of permanent magnets in the rotor.  I don't know that any Flynn designs can do this.  This factor may be a great advantage to the valve that is not obvious.

I believe that the best motors will be ones that are locked with no power, and rotate by momentarily releasing certain magnets - similar to what Flynn is doing.  This it just a "gut feeling" - no proof to offer.


Offline z_p_e

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Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
« Reply #115 on: July 27, 2006, 02:32:47 PM »
Thr Flynn design utilizes the flux 100% of the time, yes, but he also must pay for that. The Flynn design must switch the flux twice, meaning that two power pulses are used, one for each direction. The Hildenbrand concept pays only once.

So, on a per armature basis, both systems require roughly the same amount of power. If Jack set up a second unit opposite the first, and switched it appropriately, he would have something similar to the Flynn design...i.e. 2 coils, 2 magnets, 2 armatures.

Again, once I complete my simulations, I will hopefully have more definitive data to offer.

z_p_e

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Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
« Reply #115 on: July 27, 2006, 02:32:47 PM »
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jake

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Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
« Reply #116 on: July 27, 2006, 03:41:47 PM »
Quote
So, on a per armature basis, both systems require roughly the same amount of power.

But which one does more with that power?  That is the issue.  I don't know, but I'm guessing that shorting the magnet through a non-working path severly decreases the output torque as compared to directing that flux through the rotor in a torque producing path.

The goal of any pm motor must be to actually USE the pm flux.  When the flux is shorted through the sleeve around the magnets, it is doing nothing.  This is a waste of flux for whatever duty cycle the coil is off.  Period.  In the flynn design, when the coil relaxes the flux transitions to a position where it is acting on the rotor.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2006, 04:18:55 PM by jake »

Offline MeggerMan

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Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
« Reply #117 on: July 27, 2006, 05:00:06 PM »
Hi Jake,
I hear what you are saying but you may have a few things wrong/misunderstanding as I see it:

1. The power is only ON during the time the rotor first starts to make the path at the stator poles until the mid point is reached, this is a small duration/angle of rotation.
2. You apply just enough current to route ALL of the flux through the stator poles/rotor arm.
3. Both use the flux from the pm, just that Jack has "adopted" (from Nasa's boots) a tighter method (you can using a neo 40 pm, with same current I was driving cermic 8 pm of the same size).

Use the Femm software (free) to show me your idea, it only takes a couple of hours to get to grips with:
http://femm.foster-miller.net

I will setup a side by side simulation and show the results of each.

Regards

Rob

Offline Liberty

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Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
« Reply #118 on: July 27, 2006, 05:32:31 PM »
I can see both sides of the discussion here.  Jake's desire is to make the most efficient use of flux and motor, but at the cost of possibly more power consumption.

 ZPE is concerned about excess power consumption, while taking the view that magnet flux costs little or nothing to produce, so have the sacrifice there. 

So apparently, the only way to have the best of both worlds is to make a motor that uses magnet to magnet construction (for top efficiency).  This way permanent magnet flux is not wasted, and power for a coil is not consumed for switching flux (which takes considerable power to switch flux or equal the power of a magnet with an electromagnet, and the magnetic balance is delicate). 

You must primarily take power consumption into account when working to find a device that is capable of ultra low power consumption so that electrical free excess energy may be possible in the end.  This would make the most electrically efficient and flux efficient motor; a pure magnet to magnet motor.  The ultimate device to conserve power consumption and for over all motor efficiency.

But can it be done???  Yes. But as in everything, there are certain sacrifices and tradeoffs just like the above discussion.  You can't have the best of all worlds.  Each flavor of motor has it's advantages and disadvantages.  An all electric motor may be more powerful and of smaller size, but not the best on power consumption.

 For instance, in a Yagi antenna design, you can adjust for the best beam width and side rejection, or the best gain, or maximize in between for both, sacrificing some of both gain and beam concentration, for a balance.  You just have to decide what is the most important goal and make it for that purpose.  Power efficiency, or motor efficiency?  Cost and machining, or simplicity and cost effectivness?  Speed or strength, etc.  Large size, or small size?  Matching the motor's capability to the task is important to come out the best for what you want to do.

There will always be some give and take to every design, along with design constraints for the type of device.  That is why some motor's are better at some tasks and others are better suited for another application.  I would think that a magnet to magnet motor would be the best suited for excess power generation capability, because it has the possiblity of using the least amount of power to run, while not being best suited for say, speed or running a truck.  While other motors (magnet or electric) would be best suited for speed, strength and size efficiency to power a vehicle, or a hand power saw, or a disk drive and so on...  Match the job to do with the motor that has the strengths to fit that task the best.  They all have their place.





Offline z_p_e

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Re: Hilden-Brand Magnet Motor
« Reply #119 on: July 27, 2006, 06:30:06 PM »
In order to keep things straight, we need to take a moment and make sure we are all talking about and comparing apples to apples.

I am talking about the fundamental principal...the back to basics method of pulling in an armature through a flux conducting path such as shown in Jacks diagram. To compare this apple with Flynn's apple, one must go back to the web page where Flynn compares the parallel path method, with Bearden's method.

Using Flynn's diagram and Jack's diagram, we can put both units in their own black box, with the excption of the two armatures for each. Now, with only the coil wires leading into each respective black box, we can drive each unit appropriately, and compare the power requirements. Of course it goes without saying that the same strength magnets (2 each) are used in both.

z_p_e

 

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