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Author Topic: Window Motor Doubles Voltage At The Power Supply [Overunity ?]  (Read 14807 times)

Offline poynt99

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Re: Window Motor Doubles Voltage At The Power Supply [Overunity ?]
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2009, 05:01:52 PM »
Hi John,

Yes it may present a load to your motor because whenever the voltage level tends to be higher on the + motor wire than the output of supply voltage, the series diode will block the supply voltage and the motor current will load the diode bridge's output,  a situation a snake wishes to byte its own tail...  ;)

rgds, Gyula

Good suggestion with the diode Gyula, however I'm not sure I agree with the above quote, or maybe don't understand what you are saying exactly.

There should be no load on the motor even if its output voltage at the bridge is higher than 20V.

.99

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Offline gyulasun

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Re: Window Motor Doubles Voltage At The Power Supply [Overunity ?]
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2009, 05:25:27 PM »
@.99

On load I mean the window motor's own current consumption, taken normally from the 21V supply, about a few hundred microamper as John said earlier.
No mechanical load on the shaft of the motor.

And in case the output voltage feedback from the bridge output to the positive supply wire of the motor is on and if this tends to increase the supply voltage above the 21V, then the diode blocks this extra voltage getting back into the power supply circuits and the motor will try to run faster. However this faster run surely increases its own current consumption so this fact will normally involve the reducement of the output voltage from the diode bridge because the source (in this case the diode output) gets its juice from the same "wire" it feeds. 
Normally for such feedback to work safely in case of any overunity I would normally use a decent DC-DC converter that has ground independent in/out terminals and that has a stabilised output voltage. Such converters has +90% efficiency so a circuit with a COP of 1.1 or say 1.2 couls surely be looped back by such converter.

Maybe I answered your question.  :)

rgds, Gyula

Offline DadHav

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Re: Window Motor Doubles Voltage At The Power Supply [Overunity ?]
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2009, 05:40:50 PM »
Guys. I have another idea that I can't try until I get home again but: If the effect I'm seeing is completely dependent on the impedance matching between the supply and the motor coils, would it be possible to put 2 LAB batteries in series with the power supply, leaving the power supply set at zero volts. Is it possible the circuit would run and charge the filters in the power supply? Is it possible the impedance would stay the same with the power supply unplugged? If this should happen to work it would prove that a substitute input circuit could be made to support the anomaly shown in the video but this time using a battery that might except a charge from the setup. Full of prunes again right?
John

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Re: Window Motor Doubles Voltage At The Power Supply [Overunity ?]
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2009, 05:40:50 PM »
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Offline lumen

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Re: Window Motor Doubles Voltage At The Power Supply [Overunity ?]
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2009, 06:16:36 PM »
I think these regulated power supplies are not designed to directly operate inductive motor devices.
The timing is interfering with the power supplies regulator circuit and causing the supply to increase the output.
If this is not the case then the power supply would still continue to supply only the 20v and the motor would actually be supplying it's own power at 40v.

Just decouple the power supply with a large capacitor connected to the power supply and feed the motor through a diode.
This would allow the power supply to see only the voltage on the capacitor and would then show only the actual 20v supply.
If the motor was operating as it's own supply, then this should still occur and it would still accelerate up and produce 40v.



 

Offline DadHav

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Re: Window Motor Doubles Voltage At The Power Supply [Overunity ?]
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2009, 06:43:22 PM »
Lumen. When you put it that way it does certainly sound to good to be true. Maybe I don't understand what you recommend. I can put a large cap on the output of the PS but once I add the diode it's likely the power supply wouldn't go up capacitor or not right? Maybe I don't picture what you say.
John

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Re: Window Motor Doubles Voltage At The Power Supply [Overunity ?]
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2009, 06:43:22 PM »
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Offline lumen

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Re: Window Motor Doubles Voltage At The Power Supply [Overunity ?]
« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2009, 07:05:27 PM »
Yes, It is likely the power supply would not increase in voltage but if the motor was indeed producing an increase in voltage, then it should still show up on the point just after the diode.
In fact you could add another capacitor at this point to create a good point to measure the real voltage generated from the motor.


Offline DadHav

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Re: Window Motor Doubles Voltage At The Power Supply [Overunity ?]
« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2009, 08:01:16 PM »
Thanks Lumen. That's what I figured you where saying. I'm just not sure how the motor will act with the diode. I'll try it as soon as I can. I just received a schematic for the power supply. I can see right away from the block diagram there is sophisticated voltage and sensing on the output circuit. There may be some trickery going on here, but at least it's not from me.
John

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Re: Window Motor Doubles Voltage At The Power Supply [Overunity ?]
« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2009, 08:01:16 PM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: Window Motor Doubles Voltage At The Power Supply [Overunity ?]
« Reply #22 on: November 22, 2009, 08:06:50 PM »
Guys. I have another idea that I can't try until I get home again but: If the effect I'm seeing is completely dependent on the impedance matching between the supply and the motor coils, would it be possible to put 2 LAB batteries in series with the power supply, leaving the power supply set at zero volts. Is it possible the circuit would run and charge the filters in the power supply? Is it possible the impedance would stay the same with the power supply unplugged? If this should happen to work it would prove that a substitute input circuit could be made to support the anomaly shown in the video but this time using a battery that might except a charge from the setup. Full of prunes again right?
John

Hi John,

Two comments:
1) the effect i.e. the voltage and current increase you experience does not really depend on the impedance match between the supply and motor coils.
We should study the circuit schematics of your PS and then we could make further conclusions on the effect, seeing the overall circuit what is created when you connect the bridge output to the PS output.
What you suggest to use two series batteries in series with the zero volt output PS is dangerous, you may destroy your PS inside circuits. I would not do such without knowing the inner circuits of the PS.
2) when your PS is unplugged it may or may not have the same output impedance, it all depends the inside circuits (is it a linear or a switch mode supply, in case of the latter the unplugged output impedance may approch that of the operating PS much better than in the first case.

Lumen basically suggest the same diode separation I did, I agree with his drawing, the motor positive wire is to be connected to the diode's cathode point and he shows a puffer capacitor there too, it seems useful to filter the output of your full wave diode bridge.

rgds, Gyula

Offline DadHav

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Re: Window Motor Doubles Voltage At The Power Supply [Overunity ?]
« Reply #23 on: November 22, 2009, 08:39:31 PM »
Guyula. yes, I recognized your suggestion with the added capacitor from Lumen. Also noted on the power supply warning. You're right. I would be disappointed if I damaged it. I just got the schematics from a friend I can't attach the whole manual because it's 1400KB and I think it's to big to be allowed. I've attached the schematic pages only in case anyone wanted to see them.
Thanks again.
John

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Re: Window Motor Doubles Voltage At The Power Supply [Overunity ?]
« Reply #23 on: November 22, 2009, 08:39:31 PM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: Window Motor Doubles Voltage At The Power Supply [Overunity ?]
« Reply #24 on: November 22, 2009, 09:09:30 PM »
ok, John tomorrow will have more time to have a look at the schematics.

I still say though that a direct connection of a circuit output back to its input is normally not recommended, some means of isolation (like a transformer in case of the switch mode PS) is needed unless it is inherent in the circuit.

rgds, Gyula

Offline DadHav

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Re: Window Motor Doubles Voltage At The Power Supply [Overunity ?]
« Reply #25 on: November 23, 2009, 05:33:44 AM »
thank you Gyula. Please take your time I'm so tied up with company that I won't have time myself for a while.
John

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Re: Window Motor Doubles Voltage At The Power Supply [Overunity ?]
« Reply #25 on: November 23, 2009, 05:33:44 AM »
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Offline jadaro2600

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Re: Window Motor Doubles Voltage At The Power Supply [Overunity ?]
« Reply #26 on: November 23, 2009, 04:08:46 PM »
Lumen. When you put it that way it does certainly sound to good to be true. Maybe I don't understand what you recommend. I can put a large cap on the output of the PS but once I add the diode it's likely the power supply wouldn't go up capacitor or not right? Maybe I don't picture what you say.
John

Perhaps you could do the same test with current as you do with voltage?

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Window Motor Doubles Voltage At The Power Supply [Overunity ?]
« Reply #27 on: November 23, 2009, 04:23:58 PM »
Hi all

Been thinking and Lumen is correct. The caps and diode will isolate the pulses from getting back to the PS. Then you measure the second cap with a meter.
Thing is, if the motor is putting out like it seems, depending on the second cap size, the motor may just spin to oblivion, due to the lack of PS limitations to incoming power. Have you tried a battery on the motor? That would solve a lot of questions here, maybe.

Very nice motor by the way

Magluvin

Offline DadHav

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Re: Window Motor Doubles Voltage At The Power Supply [Overunity ?]
« Reply #28 on: November 23, 2009, 07:17:40 PM »
Thank you Magluvin. The motor did turn out to be a little sweetheart. I have another about half the size also. I have a video of it at 20,000 rpm's but it can do more. I'm afraid of the magnets dislodging. Yes the battery would solve a lot of problems, but I haven't been able to get the same effect with a battery. That's why I keep mentioning impedance. This may not apply but something is going on with the supply circuit. I'll be home in a few days and I'll try some of the things you are suggesting here and we'll see what happens.
John

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Window Motor Doubles Voltage At The Power Supply [Overunity ?]
« Reply #29 on: November 23, 2009, 09:57:48 PM »
Hey Dadhave
Well being that you say it doesnt give you the effect with the battery, that got me thinking that the back emf pulses, probably not the consumption pulses, are causing the power supply to become inaccurate at regulating. One test you can try is to use one of those a/c outlet power meters on the input of the power supply to see if the PS consumption increases when the motor goes into overdrive when you hit the turbo switch. =] That would give a definite answer to what is going on. To go through that schematic to figure out PS operation wont be necessary.
Also, lets say you use Lumens cap diode setup on a battery, having the cap closest to the motor a large value, then run it, with the turbo switch Off (back charge switch, I like turbo switch for your situation) to get it running, then when you hit the switch, if the motor is back charging like it seems, the battery would not be a load on the back charge and the cap will accept the back charge easier and it should speed up, only if this is what is really happening.
Other than that, the PS is being fooled into stepping up the voltage due to the back charge pulses. Trying a large cap on the power input of the motor will lower the magnitude of the back pulses also, and the motor wont go into overdrive like you show, but maybe some, if the PS IS being fooled into putting out more than it should.
These tests should be easy and conclusive.

Magluvin

 

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