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Author Topic: Window Motor Doubles Voltage At The Power Supply [Overunity ?]  (Read 14806 times)

Offline powercat

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Window Motor Doubles Voltage At The Power Supply [Overunity ?]
« on: November 11, 2009, 05:44:21 PM »
Vid from DadHav / John
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBpir5azwTo
When the power from the bridge rectifiers are switched onto the input, the motor increases speed and the voltage on the power supply readout doubles. I am not claiming this is over unity but I don't know how to explain what is going on. If you have any ideas chime in.
John.

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Offline patmac

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Re: Window Motor Doubles Voltage At The Power Supply [Overunity ?]
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2009, 01:43:04 AM »
@powercat

Good work your motor looks very nice....

You can put a amp meter between power supply and the motor, then when you switch on to send energy to the source this amp meter must to show negative current.

Good Luck.

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Window Motor Doubles Voltage At The Power Supply [Overunity ?]
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2009, 10:02:37 PM »
Vid from DadHav / John
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBpir5azwTo
When the power from the bridge rectifiers are switched onto the input, the motor increases speed and the voltage on the power supply readout doubles. I am not claiming this is over unity but I don't know how to explain what is going on. If you have any ideas chime in.
John.

Hi John,

MAybe two possibilites:

1) I think your motor setup and the power supply becomes an oscillator when you switch the diode bridge feedback on.  If you could hook up an oscilloscope to the DC output of the power supply, you would see oscillations on the DC level line when the feedback switch is on. IF you cannot see any oscillations, then next use the scope AC coupled instead of the previous DC to be able to switch to more sensitive input ranges.

2) Well, if you cannot see any oscillations during the feedback, then the explanation may be in the power supply's inside circuit: somehow it measures the voltage that gets added to its output like in your case the diode bridge surely have an additional 20-21V output over the supply output and the meter circuit inside senses this.  It should not but it may do in this case.

The best test would be you load the diode bridge output with an independent load resistor and changing its value for the optimum power match, compare the input power consumed by the motor (and the H bridge) to that of dissipated in the load. This way you can see you are under or over unity.

rgds, Gyula

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Re: Window Motor Doubles Voltage At The Power Supply [Overunity ?]
« Reply #2 on: November 21, 2009, 10:02:37 PM »
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Offline powercat

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Re: Window Motor Doubles Voltage At The Power Supply [Overunity ?]
« Reply #3 on: November 21, 2009, 10:25:10 PM »
Hmmm first of all I am not John
 I did point this out in my first post     Vid from DadHav / John
 and the writing underneath the Vid that I posted was from his YouTube video description.
 My apologies for any confusion caused.
cat

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Window Motor Doubles Voltage At The Power Supply [Overunity ?]
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2009, 11:52:22 PM »
Ok cat,  sorry for my misunderstanding.

rgds, Gyula

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Re: Window Motor Doubles Voltage At The Power Supply [Overunity ?]
« Reply #4 on: November 21, 2009, 11:52:22 PM »
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Offline DadHav

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Re: Window Motor Doubles Voltage At The Power Supply [Overunity ?]
« Reply #5 on: November 22, 2009, 01:40:32 AM »
Hello Gyula, Cat. Thanks for showing interest in my video. You're certainly welcome to have a look at my other videos as well. I think Gyulas option #2 is probably close to what's going on. I'm not knowledgeable enough to hit the nail on the head but I can take a SWAG at it. (Sophisticated Wild Ass Guess) I think It might go like this: The output from the bridge is a few volts higher than the input voltage; For some reason there is an impedance match with this power supply that I can't seem to match with a battery or anything else; The special match allows the higher voltage from the bridge to overcharge the filter capacitors in the power supply to a higher voltage than the supply is outputting; It may be possible that part of the return is out of phase from the input pulse of the motor as well; Since the capacitor is now higher, the motor tries to use the increased voltage and does; The motor speeds up and produces yet a higher charge to the capacitor; The motor might be efficient enough to let the cycle increase rather than draw the capacitor down to the power supply voltage. OK, Just a theory. I don't think the scope will show anything across the output of the supply because of the heavy filtering. AND, the current also goes up as the process goes into acceleration. at least the power supply meter indicates this when switched to amps rather than volts. So, I don't think this is over unity but more like a special effect related to an unusual impedance anomaly. What do you think. Old Dad is full of prunes right?
But wouldn't it be cool if I could get this to work with a battery and have the extra voltage trying to charge the battery rather than the capacitor of the power supply?
PS Just a note on the efficiency of the motor: This one will run at about 200 micro amps. If you have time, take a look at the capacitor run tests. I think it's one or some of these.
http://www.youtube.com/user/DadHav#p/u/0/xBpir5azwTo
http://www.youtube.com/user/DadHav#p/u/1/FqE_mpNPIZg
http://www.youtube.com/user/DadHav#p/u/2/T5HrqoLCNCI

DadHav/John H

Offline poynt99

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Re: Window Motor Doubles Voltage At The Power Supply [Overunity ?]
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2009, 01:51:07 AM »
I think the simplest and most likely the correct explanation is that the output from your bridge when connected to the supply, is fooling the supply's output current sensing and/or voltage regulation circuitry. It is either seeing a drop in current or the voltage sense is being fooled by spikes such that the supply is cranking up the output voltage to make the "correction". I am aware that your supply is only supposed to be limited to 20V output, but it will actually be capable of more than that in order to compensate for its own output impedance and to regulate the output voltage properly with the current spec.

You did say that the supply's output current goes up in this mode of operation, so this all makes sense.

It would be great if your window motor really was adding that much power to the input, but I highly doubt it is based on what I've said above.

.99

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Window Motor Doubles Voltage At The Power Supply [Overunity ?]
« Reply #6 on: November 22, 2009, 01:51:07 AM »
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Offline powercat

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Re: Window Motor Doubles Voltage At The Power Supply [Overunity ?]
« Reply #7 on: November 22, 2009, 02:05:30 AM »
Hi John
Thank you for responding so quickly and welcome to the forum, I think you will enjoy it here as there is a wealth of knowledge and many experienced members.

cat

Offline DadHav

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Re: Window Motor Doubles Voltage At The Power Supply [Overunity ?]
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2009, 03:19:55 AM »
Thank you for the welcome Cat. .99 Your suggestion as to what's going on may very well be correct. Just a few notes though: I have a friend that has nearly the same thing happening with a simple toy train transformer with no capability of current or voltage sensing. Also I'm not using the sensing circuits on the Lambda supply. I would really be surprised if there was 200% reserve power just to adjust for voltage or current losses as it would pertain to normal usage. I don't know. The more I think about it the more I think I would be disappointed in my power supply if it could change its mind about what I have it set to put out for voltage and all of a sudden put out twice as much as it's supposed to have the capability of. Oh, there's another thing I haven't mentioned: 42 volts wasn't the limit. I could decrease the trim resistance further and get more voltage, but I don't have heat sinks on the transistors and they where starting to heat up.  Hey maybe I could get an opinion from an engineer at Lambda or something. Another interesting test would be to run a a parallel load to the motor and see what it takes to draw the voltage back down to 20 volts. Maybe thats what someone was suggesting already.
Thanks guys. I appreciate the input.
DadHav/John H

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Re: Window Motor Doubles Voltage At The Power Supply [Overunity ?]
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2009, 03:19:55 AM »
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Offline tinu

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Re: Window Motor Doubles Voltage At The Power Supply [Overunity ?]
« Reply #9 on: November 22, 2009, 10:25:17 AM »
@ DadHav/John H

From my experience, a window motor shows increased efficiency when energy (back emf) is properly recovered. I have no doubts here. Actually, most if not all pulse motors will do so. Hence, a certain/reasonable increase in speed at constant voltage (constant power) is explainable. In practice, because the input power decreases when employing the recovery circuit, a slight increase of voltage can be measured, which is also normal since most power supplies shows a I-V dependence. Usually this behavior is not properly explored, understood or maybe just not reported back by some former experimenters I’ve followed; things get complicated because until motor reaches a stable point on its functioning curve, we’re dealing with a transient.

Regardless of the above, imho the voltage can not become double after connecting the recovery or the motor would fly apart given its characteristics and efficiency. Therefore, I suspect the voltmeter on the supply is tricked due to voltage spikes. The ammeter might be tricked the same way as well.
I kindly suggest repeating the experiment using several 9/12V batteries and a mini-variac to properly adjust the voltage and then to calibrate everything (DC vs AC/power supply) using the VDC-RPM curve.
Please report back if you decide to try solving the mystery and I apologies for interfering with other suggestions; I’m not an expert in this area.

Awesome built!

Best regards,
Tinu

Offline DadHav

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Re: Window Motor Doubles Voltage At The Power Supply [Overunity ?]
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2009, 12:44:28 PM »
Tinu, I'm not sure about that either. As the voltage and current reading goes up, the motor also speeds up and develops more torque. When running at it's highest level the motor is much harder to stop by grabbing the shaft, even though it is drawing only 200 ma. If I put a large capacitor across the input it will charge to to 42 volts rather quickly. I'm trying to get a schematic for the supply as well as talk to someone at Lambda. I can't try some of the other mentioned tests because this only happens with the power supply. I can test some other supplies to see if it does the same thing. We all know what an important part impedance matching plays as it pertains to Bedini patents and I think this is what I'm experiencing here. My coils are 400 turn 400 ft long so the impedance would never be close to match up with a battery, at least with respect to my understanding. I'll continue figuring out whats going on or to get the setup to work with a battery but I have to admit I'm tiring  out a little bit and feel a need to build something else while giving this more thought.
John

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Window Motor Doubles Voltage At The Power Supply [Overunity ?]
« Reply #10 on: November 22, 2009, 12:44:28 PM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: Window Motor Doubles Voltage At The Power Supply [Overunity ?]
« Reply #11 on: November 22, 2009, 03:46:28 PM »
Hi John,

Thanks for coming to this forum and adding further details on your findings.

Normally power supplies do not like loads like a pulse motor and they can be especially sensitive to inductive current loads that appear and disappear suddenly.

I understand you start tiring out a little but maybe you could do a simple test.

It needs a diode like 1N4001 or similar normal rectifier diode (no need for a fast one or for a Schottky type but of course they are also ok if  they have a decent 50-60V reverse voltage rating and you have just like that in your precious 'junkbox').

You could connect this diode in series with the positive output of your power supply, its anode would go to the + output and its cathode would go to your + wire of the motor so that when you run the motor without the feedback, it would work as usual, the only loss being the forward voltage drop across the diode (0.7V for an Si diode).

Now if you switch on the feedback, this diode will surely block any DC voltage that is higher than the supply output (less the 0.7V), and the inside control loop or whatever circuit in the power supply will not be fooled.
And the increased supply voltage (if manifest any) AFTER the diode that feeds the motor may still get added to that 20V value.

I hope it is understandable what I suggest: with the series diode you can simply separate the two voltages; the one coming out from the power supply and the one you feed back to it from the diode bridge.

rgds, Gyula

Offline DadHav

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Re: Window Motor Doubles Voltage At The Power Supply [Overunity ?]
« Reply #12 on: November 22, 2009, 04:05:06 PM »
Gyula, I wish I'd thought of that myself. It sounds like a simple quick test that will show us something. I have a shoe box full of diodes. Hmm as I think about that further, it might present a load on the motor that will just slow it down. Well who knows, we'll see. I'm slightly out of town at this moment enjoying a visit from my sister and brother-in-law. I will however be traveling back and forth from our cottage to home for mail. I should have time this week to try a few things. I really appreciate the ideas. You never know. Sometimes you might only be missing success by the smallest amount of help or advice.
Take Care
John

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Window Motor Doubles Voltage At The Power Supply [Overunity ?]
« Reply #13 on: November 22, 2009, 04:19:35 PM »
Hi John,

Yes it may present a load to your motor because whenever the voltage level tends to be higher on the + motor wire than the output of supply voltage, the series diode will block the supply voltage and the motor current will load the diode bridge's output,  a situation a snake wishes to byte its own tail...  ;)

rgds, Gyula

Offline DadHav

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Re: Window Motor Doubles Voltage At The Power Supply [Overunity ?]
« Reply #14 on: November 22, 2009, 04:24:04 PM »
I'll keep my snake byte solution very close at hand. (The current limiting knob on the supply)
Cheers
John

 

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