Language: 
To browser these website, it's necessary to store cookies on your computer.
The cookies contain no personal information, they are required for program control.
  the storage of cookies while browsing this website, on Login and Register.

GDPR and DSGVO law

Storing Cookies (See : http://ec.europa.eu/ipg/basics/legal/cookies/index_en.htm ) help us to bring you our services at overunity.com . If you use this website and our services you declare yourself okay with using cookies .More Infos here:
https://overunity.com/5553/privacy-policy/
If you do not agree with storing cookies, please LEAVE this website now. From the 25th of May 2018, every existing user has to accept the GDPR agreement at first login. If a user is unwilling to accept the GDPR, he should email us and request to erase his account. Many thanks for your understanding.
Amazon Warehouse Deals ! Now even more Deep Discounts ! Check out these great prices on slightly used or just opened once only items.I always buy my gadgets via these great Warehouse deals ! Highly recommended ! Many thanks for supporting OverUnity.com this way.

User Menu

Tesla Paper

Free Energy Book

Get paid

Donations

Please Donate for the Forum.
Many thanks.
Regards, Stefan.(Admin)

A-Ads

Powerbox

Smartbox

3D Solar

3D Solar Panels

DC2DC converter

Micro JouleThief

FireMatch

FireMatch

CCKnife

CCKnife

CCTool

CCTool

Magpi Magazine

Magpi Magazine Free Rasberry Pi Magazine

Battery Recondition

Battery Recondition

Arduino

Ultracaps

YT Subscribe

Gravity Machines

Tesla-Ebook

Magnet Secrets

Lindemann Video

Navigation

Products

Products

WaterMotor kit

Statistics

  • *Total Members: 83995
  • *Latest: pelzer06

  • *Total Posts: 892885
  • *Total Topics: 15673
  • *Online Today: 44
  • *Most Online: 103
(December 19, 2006, 11:27:19 PM)
  • *Users: 3
  • *Guests: 39
  • *Total: 42

Author Topic: New Magnetic Motor Principal?  (Read 13203 times)

Offline lumen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1372
Re: New Magnetic Motor Principal?
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2009, 02:08:50 AM »
Gyula

 I have not yet started any work on the electromagnet design. I have been mostly working on the all magnet version trying to find the optimal path to get the highest gain.
The best I have been able to get so far is about 2 to 1. That is , it requires 1/2 the work to position the magnets as the energy gained from the rotation.

This seems to be about the best condition that I can get so far in the simulator. I can see other ways that would seem to be better but for now 2 to 1.

I have all the machines to build a test device, but I need to try to get the best gain possible or at least understand the best method to do so.

Soon!

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: New Magnetic Motor Principal?
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2009, 02:08:50 AM »

Offline FatChance!!!

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 197
Re: New Magnetic Motor Principal?
« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2009, 08:57:25 AM »
Interesting but you clearly overlook some very important parameters that stops this from working.

There is no existing electromagnet or any air coil capable of generating the strong field you
really need to overcome the forces from neodymium magnets in efficient overunity mode.
In a regular motor the coils/EM's doesn't have to push or pull neodymium's very hard.
This is handled by the sheer core alloy attraction between poles and the work to push
the rotormagnets from one pole to another is only determined by the cogging resistance.

Further more...the field from electromagnets is weak and not emitted strongly like neos.
This has to do with the molecular structure of the core alloy in regular room temperature.
The flux lines generated always take the shortest path and returns through the core instead
of leaving the surface. This is why electromagnets have very low flux levels on the surface.
If you were to supercool the electromagnet down to superconducting state this changes.
In superconducting state the flux cannot return through the core and it's emitted like a neo.
But on the other hand, supercooled electromagnets are very sensitive for alternating flux
and will jump out of superconducting state as soon as the rotormagnets move the flux lines.

Thirdly....The rotormagnet is heavily attracted to the EM core (if moved there by hand) and
the attraction will force the rotor being stuck in this position, right between the statormagnets.
If you somehow could repel the rotor magnet away from the core then you face the problem
of distance. As soon as you leave the EM core surface there is no flux lines to push the rotor
further away from the electromagnet and it will get stuck close beside the EM core.
Not to mention that both sides (N & S) of the rotormagnet is facing the electromagnet.
How will you pulse it? Any pulse will attract one side and repel the other. It won't move.

Last but not least....The rotormagnets will get stuck just after or before the statormagnets where
the highest level of attraction between magnets is obtained. And the EM has no influence on this.
You will be able to push the rotormagnet back and forth on each side of the statormagnet by sheer
hand force but there is no way the electromagnet can influence the rotor on that great distance.

Conclusion: There is simply to much air in this design to make it spinn.

Yes, You are exactly correct!
Thank you for being so understanding.  :D
« Last Edit: November 11, 2009, 03:42:09 PM by FatChance!!! »

Offline lumen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1372
Re: New Magnetic Motor Principal?
« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2009, 12:18:29 AM »
I'm not here to contest negative perceived ideas.... or maybe some negative comments are good!

Quote
There is no existing electromagnet or any air coil capable of generating the strong field you
really need to overcome the forces from neodymium magnets in efficient overunity mode.

Over unity mode? I need to study up on that...

Actually, it works best if the field from the coil is small and does not distort the main circular field generated by the large magnets. The unit does not produce the large power of a PM motor. The idea is that the power that it generates is greater than the input!

Think of this, If you place a neodymium magnet in a block of Styrofoam and float it in a plastic container of water, you would see it rotate very quickly to align to the earths field. (very weak field lots of air too)
In spite of the rapid rotation, the block will not try to move to either pole of the earth! This is because both fields of the magnet are in the same field. This causes one side to pull and the other side to push.

Now, if you connect a small stick out one side to work as a pivot arm, you will see that the earths field will now cause the magnet rotate about the pivot point because the torque is transferred to a rotational center.
This is what this motor is based on! If you produce a circular field that is actually way stronger than the earths field. One could build a rotor that will rotate to align itself with that field even if the field is an endless circular path.

So if you consider that 4,000 miles of air can still produce enough torque to rotate the magnet in the water very quickly, it seems that about 1/2 inch of air space would still apply about a thousands time more torque. (just guessing though)

I would think you may want to understand that the ONLY method to gain any energy form magnets, is down a path that does not cut lines of force. Because every line of force you break to do work is one more you need to go back through to get back to the start, and this requires work.

Use only the torque of a parallel field to do work! Unless you want to pay the price.


« Last Edit: November 12, 2009, 01:46:31 AM by lumen »

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: New Magnetic Motor Principal?
« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2009, 12:18:29 AM »
Sponsored links:




Offline casman1969

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 188
Re: New Magnetic Motor Principal?
« Reply #18 on: November 12, 2009, 01:08:52 AM »
Maybe this is meant for another thread and if so I appologize up front.
I've been working the all magnet concept for over two years with little to show for it except for a large number of Neo's and ceramics which make it into every conceivable configuration...
I have one obstacle, as do you, and it's the sticky point. So my question is this...
with two N facing magnets approcahing each other, is it not possible to wind a flat (or any shape for that matter) core shield and pulse it with the magnets resonant Freq. (or some other freq.) to, in effect, negate the repulsive action thereby allowing the magnets free flow past to the point of repulsion?
My question precedes my experiment.

Offline lumen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1372
Re: New Magnetic Motor Principal?
« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2009, 01:57:40 AM »
Quote
is it not possible to wind a flat (or any shape for that matter) core shield and pulse it with the magnets resonant Freq. (or some other freq.) to, in effect, negate the repulsive action thereby allowing the magnets free flow past to the point of repulsion?

Yes, this does work and has been done many times. The problem is it TAKES energy to neutralize the repelling field that you cannot get back.
This is because if you try to recover the energy of the coils collapsing field, the coil is now in a different field than what it was when it was energized and the return is now less!

If this field had not changed, then the return would of been almost identical.
But the principal does make a motor, just not a good one.




Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: New Magnetic Motor Principal?
« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2009, 01:57:40 AM »
Sponsored links:




Offline FatChance!!!

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 197
Re: New Magnetic Motor Principal?
« Reply #20 on: November 12, 2009, 11:11:37 AM »
I'm not here to contest negative perceived ideas.... or maybe some negative comments are good!
I'm not being negative. I just serve you some real world facts that are often overlooked when
trying to make an overunity motor. Knowledge is aways better than ignorance.
Without knowledge you will run into the same show stoppers as all OU inventors before you.
But if you have the advantage of magnetic knowledge you might find a way to reach your goal.
You must not fight or force your design into something that can't possibly work.
Instead you must find a way to use the existing rules and make good use of the available forces.

The best way is to start some simple test setups of your design and you will learn a lot of what to avoid.
You could build one sixth part of your motor using only two statormagnets, one rotormagnet and electromagnet.
This could be built quickly and show you how real world forces operate, e.g the limitations of EM vs Neos.
Once you have the facts you can either build an advanced tweaked version of your motor or perhaps
something completely else based on your freshly gained knowledge.

Yes, You are exactly correct!
Thankyou for being so understanding once again.  :D
« Last Edit: November 12, 2009, 11:34:55 AM by FatChance!!! »

Offline gyulasun

  • without_ads
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4068
Re: New Magnetic Motor Principal?
« Reply #21 on: November 15, 2009, 02:58:23 PM »
Hi Lumen,

Still trying to digest the setup of your 6 x 6 magnet ring, picture constant+torque+field2_mod.jpg and I did the following small experiment.

I took two N36 grade cylinder magnets (diameter: 18mm, thickness 5mm) in my hands and arranged them as one be a stator fixed in my left hand and the other as the rotor in my right hand, just like for instance the two magnets shown at the 9 o'clock position in the above drawing.
I slowly approached the right hand side magnet from below to upwards, passing the facing position and beyond.  I clearly felt the following forces:

1) on approach from below the 9 o'clock position (say, starting the rotor magnet from the 8 o'clock position) there was an increasing definite pulling force (I mean from the rotor point of view) RADIALLY outside towards the stator magnet and a very small force towards the clockwise (the desired) rotor rotational direction
2) I found a point where this strong pull was at the maximum, pointing radially out,  and slightly beyond this point an ever increasing repel force started with respect to the still clockwise wanted rotation
3) the maximum repel force was reached at the position, when the two magnets were face to face
4) forcing the rotor magnet further on in the clockwise direction I felt again the pulling force acting radially on the rotor magnet, like in step 1)

All in all there are three sticky points for all the 6 magnet pairs, two strong radially attract forces with a strong repel force in-between. And all these forces should be considered twice as they occur twice simultaneously. (I mean for instance the magnet pair at 9 o'clock and its "mirror" at the 3 o'clock position and so on for the other pairs, alltogether any sticky point counts 6 times as stronger, unfortunately.)

I think a huge amount of input power would be needed to defeat these sticky points, so this design needs some redesigning.

Thanks,  Gyula

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: New Magnetic Motor Principal?
« Reply #21 on: November 15, 2009, 02:58:23 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline lumen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1372
Re: New Magnetic Motor Principal?
« Reply #22 on: November 15, 2009, 07:39:04 PM »
Gyula,

That is about correct, there is a very strong force as the magnet crosses the gap. That is why it is an electromagnet!
It must be off when passing through the gap. A coil would not see the gap as a sticky point even if it used a steel core.
There would only be an attraction as approaching and the same attraction after passing and so would appear neutral.

The all magnet version must stay between the two magnet faces. Then the moving magnet would flip over  while in the center of the larger magnet at a balanced point as to not require any energy. (or as little as possible)

This would reverse the direction and would then just oscillate between the two magnet faces.
An all magnet motor built this way could not produce much energy because it would not be a continuous path. The constant start and stop operation would limit energy output.

The rotary version requires an electromagnet and you also must recover the energy from the collapsing field to operate OU.






Offline gyulasun

  • without_ads
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4068
Re: New Magnetic Motor Principal?
« Reply #23 on: November 15, 2009, 11:32:18 PM »
Lumen,

Thanks but I do not fully get you, you mean the magnet crossing the gap is an electromagnet?  then I surely missed your setup how you thought.

And you mean that either the outer or the inner set of magnets should be electromagnets or you mean both sets are permanent magnets as in my referred drawing (drawn from your model) and you place 6 electromagnets between the middle edge positions?
In this latter case a very high input power is neeed for this setup to operate, considering the two radially attracting and one radially repelling forces for each permanent magnet pair.  I would appreciate another drawing just showing the one perm magnet pair and the electromagnet or if this is not how you think then the one as you think, lol   :)

hopefully you understand where I am lost in your setup?

rgds, Gyula

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: New Magnetic Motor Principal?
« Reply #23 on: November 15, 2009, 11:32:18 PM »
3D Solar Panels

Offline lumen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1372
Re: New Magnetic Motor Principal?
« Reply #24 on: November 16, 2009, 01:39:47 AM »
You have it correct in the colored layout that you did with the single coil. You already have it marked correctly also.
It's just that ALL the other magnets rotate together on one rotor.

You also believe it to take a large amount of power to affect the rotor? If power is applied just after passing the coil, there is a very strong field at this point that it pushes from. Only in the midpoint is the field weak. This does not create a problem because the spacing could be decreased if required.
Ideally, the coil will be energized with a 50% duty cycle  at an RPM that is at a resonant frequency so the dead area at the mid point is not critical.

I have only been working on the ALL magnet version of this and have not yet expanded into the electromagnetic layout. This information is to explore this concept and not to be taken as a complete working assembly!
I will however post a fully operational plan if it does achieve the desired results. 


 

Offline FatChance!!!

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 197
Re: New Magnetic Motor Principal?
« Reply #25 on: November 16, 2009, 12:22:11 PM »
Ideally, the coil will be energized with a 50% duty cycle  at an RPM that is at a resonant frequency so the dead area at the mid point is not critical.

If you plan any magnet motor where you use 50% duty cycle you can forget about the chance of reaching overunity.
I'm going to make you a little comparison for you to understand the forces somewhat better.

1) The regular 10mm thick N42 NdFeb is similar in electromagnetic strength as an electromagnet wound 11000 turns
and using 1amp of current in super cooled state. This translates to 11000 ampturns. At 2cm it is 22000 ampturns.

2) When your neo enters/passes the electromagnet it induces a voltage. The stronger the electromagnet the
higher the induced voltage. If you need a 10 amp pulse in a e.g 2 ohm electromagnet to run your motor this comes to 200W.
At 50% duty cycle you are using 100W per pulse. But this is without the induced voltage.
If the passing neo induces, let's say, 100V at a certain RPM (the voltage increases by the RPM) then you need to pulse
your electromagnet 10A x 2R = 20V + 100V induced = 120V x 10A = 1200W at 50% = 600W
WOW.....now you need 600W instead of 100W input just because of the induced voltage.

Don't ever think you can get away with less amount of current in your electromagnet.
I have built several and it takes 15000-20000 ampturns to get a reasonable strength and this is still far, far away from any neo.
The electromagnet ampturn = the number of turns times the current passing through.

If you design your EM by using a high number of turns to decrease the current needed you face extremely high inductance to
energize (this takes time and power) not to speak of the induced voltage reaching perhaps 1000V at each passage.

I'm not trying to be rude, tell you lies or fool you in any way. This is pure facts that must be dealt with in all designs.
Most people don't even know about the induced voltage and they get surprised when their motors consumes a lot
more than they ever expected in their ignorant dreams.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: New Magnetic Motor Principal?
« Reply #25 on: November 16, 2009, 12:22:11 PM »
3D Solar Panels

Offline lumen

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1372
Re: New Magnetic Motor Principal?
« Reply #26 on: November 16, 2009, 10:51:22 PM »
Fatchance,

Sure, I understand that, but again you are fighting the field in other designs by attracting or repelling from your coil.
This design should not fight the field at any point along it's path or you are defeating the concept.
I say a 50% duty cycle because that is what you would get at a resonate frequency anyway. Operating at a resonate frequency with a 1/2 wave input would allow it go into a high impedance state that would draw virtually no power!
Because you are not fighting any existing field direction, the coil does not need high current to establish it's magnetic field. Only about the same as if it were operating in open air!

When your coils are applied an increasing frequency, they will eventually reach a resonate point where the current drops to near zero.



Offline FatChance!!!

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 197
Re: New Magnetic Motor Principal?
« Reply #27 on: November 17, 2009, 08:49:26 AM »
Ok, sounds good.
I wish you the best of luck and progress in your design.


 

OneLink