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Author Topic: New Magnetic Motor Principal?  (Read 13123 times)

Offline lumen

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New Magnetic Motor Principal?
« on: November 07, 2009, 07:31:10 PM »
Ok,
I'm not sure that in 150 years someone has never thought of this, but seeing how Steorn is supposed to release their theory by the end of the year, I figured it best to put this idea out there in the public domain in case they are using the same principal.
At least this may leave some recourse for some builders to make devices without restrictions by their license fees.

The bad part is, now that this is posted, they could take this principal as their own and say this is what they were using all along!

Regardless, this is how it operates.
First let me say that there is a way to build an all magnet version but is a bit more difficult. The 3d software does suggest this to be possible based on the same principal and I will show how this could be done later.  For now I will explain the electromagnetic version because this version is the one capable of producing large amounts of power for nothing!





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New Magnetic Motor Principal?
« on: November 07, 2009, 07:31:10 PM »

Offline lumen

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Re: New Magnetic Motor Principal?
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2009, 07:35:44 PM »
The layout shows a parallel field created using an array of magnets, however, the field toward the center is more compressed and causes a detrimental condition to exist so this needs to be corrected by either expanding the inner field or compressing the outer field.

More energy can be gained by compressing the outer field to achieve the same density as shown in this layout.


Offline lumen

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Re: New Magnetic Motor Principal?
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2009, 07:49:09 PM »
Now, if you notice the small flat wound electromagnet in the layout, you will see that the field applied is at a point where it is balanced in both push and pull to either magnet face. This means that the coil is not attracted to either magnet set and that is would just set there.

In fact however, it will rotate because it has an applied tendency to twist and this twist is transferred to the center pivot point to cause rotation.

As the coil moves through the field, the field is exactly the same so nothing is changing from the coils point of view. This means that when the current is released from the coil, it will be in the same field as when the current was applied. This means that nearly all the current applied to energize the coil, can be recovered when the field collapses, except for a small amount lost to resistance.

This concept produces a large amount of torque that could easily produce the required energy for self operation.

 

   

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Re: New Magnetic Motor Principal?
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2009, 07:49:09 PM »
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Offline lumen

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Re: New Magnetic Motor Principal?
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2009, 08:37:43 PM »
Anyone building a pulse motor and recovering the fly back, could easily build the electromagnetic version of this motor.

Those who would like to see an all magnet version should look at the layout below.
Even though a field like the one generated in a single section of the electromagnetic layout would work, a modified field would give higher gain in an all magnet version.

In the below field, a small magnet would start at the point where the field lines merge (just left of the RH set of magnets) , and would be forced to the same point on the opposing magnet set. (just right of the LH set of magnets)

At the end position point the field is balanced and the small moving magnet can be rotated over with no force, and the same torque would drive the magnet back the other direction where it would again need to rotate over.

The energy gained traveling across the gap is far larger than the energy needed to rotate the small magnet in the balanced field so the device will bounce back and forth continually!

 

Offline gyulasun

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Re: New Magnetic Motor Principal?
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2009, 10:48:26 PM »
Hi lumen,

Would you show one drawing where the magnets are shown with their poles as needed and say if they cylinder or rectangular shaped ones? A drawing just without any flux lines, just with the magnets and its N and S poles.
I am bad at reading/knowing such details from your flux model pictures.
That way I could much better judge your shown setups.

Thanks,
Gyula

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Re: New Magnetic Motor Principal?
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2009, 10:48:26 PM »
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Offline lumen

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Re: New Magnetic Motor Principal?
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2009, 12:13:51 AM »
In this layout, the large magnets are 2 x 2 x .25 inches and the small disk is .75dia. x .25 thk in inches.

You can see the field direction and at the present position the center magnet is rotating CCW with a torque of .1 newton meter even though it is actually under a linear force to the right of .06 newtons.

The generated torque is able to raise the magnet to a position of higher energy by pulling itself further away from the attracting field.

The pivot center is 5.17 inches from the center of the disk magnet.


Offline gyulasun

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Re: New Magnetic Motor Principal?
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2009, 01:02:55 PM »
Now, if you notice the small flat wound electromagnet in the layout, you will see that the field applied is at a point where it is balanced in both push and pull to either magnet face. This means that the coil is not attracted to either magnet set and that is would just set there.

In fact however, it will rotate because it has an applied tendency to twist and this twist is transferred to the center pivot point to cause rotation.

As the coil moves through the field, the field is exactly the same so nothing is changing from the coils point of view. This means that when the current is released from the coil, it will be in the same field as when the current was applied. This means that nearly all the current applied to energize the coil, can be recovered when the field collapses, except for a small amount lost to resistance.

This concept produces a large amount of torque that could easily produce the required energy for self operation.

   

@lumen

I hope I figured out correctly the poles in your magnet setups and as an example I reedited your constant+torque+field2.jpg to show it in a more practically-looking way (for me at least  ;) ) and I attached it here.

Please have a look at it if the poles are correctly drawn? I also indicated the inner and outer magnet sets in green circles.

In your above quoted text you write as if the coil would move?  I would think the coil is stationary and either the inner magnet set would turn anticlockwise on the inner disk and the outer magnet set would be also stationary or the inner magnet set would be stationary together with the coil too and the outer magnet set would turn clockwise, in both cases around the center red point.
Could you comment?

Thanks for the further drawings with the magnet sizes and the arrows.

rgds, Gyula

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Re: New Magnetic Motor Principal?
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2009, 01:02:55 PM »
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Offline lumen

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Re: New Magnetic Motor Principal?
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2009, 06:41:10 PM »
Yes, You are exactly correct!
The color adds a bit of detail in the design. You can have the magnets rotate as a set and that would make no difference in operation. In fact to increase power, you would add all 6 coils, one to each of the spaces.
In this design the coils would operate with a cycle of 30deg on time and 30deg off time.

Offline gyulasun

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Re: New Magnetic Motor Principal?
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2009, 10:55:15 PM »
Hi lumen,

Thanks for the answer, now is it better to say the flux moves around the coil once the coil is stationary.

I have worried till now on the terribly strong radial repel force between two facing inner and outer magnets (they are N-N and S-S when just facing) because this would mean the design has strong 'sticky' point but it occurred to me soon the other magnet pair diametrically on the opposite side of the setup just counter balances this huge repel force with a more or less similar repel force, so basically just a small cogging / bumping effect should be experienced in practice if there are small differences in the individual magnet flux strengths. Unfortunately, the more difference there are between the magnet strengths, the more input power will be needed to operate this motor, (i.e. to help go the rotor through the sticky points)  and the higher will be the cogging effect.  Agree?

I think you may have thought of using air core coils, maybe in pancake shape and yes I also agree with using six of them in this setup shown. Though in this symmetrical case with the six coils, maybe soft iron cores could also be used in the coils, they would not increase cogging but a little. The position of the coils insures this design makes use of both poles of a pulse coil, not all pulse motor utilizes this torque increasing possibility and this comes at no input power cost.

Maybe you have managed to build a prototype already, I wonder.
What COP do you think this setup may have, can it be judged theoritically?
I do guess it depends on the permanent magnets type and size and also on the distance (air gap) between the inner and outer magnet sets.
If you do not agree with any of my reasonings please tell.

rgds, Gyula

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Re: New Magnetic Motor Principal?
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2009, 10:55:15 PM »
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Offline lumen

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Re: New Magnetic Motor Principal?
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2009, 12:48:58 AM »
All the inner magnets should all be the same and all the outer magnets should be the same, with the outer about 1/3 thicker than the inner. This keeps the balanced field path in line with the coil location.

The advantage over a regular pulse motor is that the coil never fights the field. The field is the same when the coil is energized as it is when it is released so virtually all the power used can be reclaimed when running at a resonate RPM. Additional load on the rotor could never increase the current draw!

Think if the coil was actually another magnet that could pivot on an axis in line with the field lines, and was rotated 90 degrees as it passed through the other magnets, then back again after it passes the magnet pairs.

This pivoting magnet may require just a bit to rotate it 90 degrees but this could be recovered when it rotates back because the field is the same.

This would now operate totally by itself! Without any power!

This is just to easy to make work!


Offline specter

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Re: New Magnetic Motor Principal?
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2009, 01:12:40 AM »
Dear lumen!

What is so big deal to show 8 current curring rings and what's so big deal in OU after that????????? More to come??? To be not rough man, what does your FEMM simulation show????? This is all done in any electromotror BTW...

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Re: New Magnetic Motor Principal?
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2009, 01:12:40 AM »
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Offline lumen

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Re: New Magnetic Motor Principal?
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2009, 01:31:11 AM »
Quote
This is all done in any electromotror BTW...

Actually it's not!
In any common motor as the coils are energized, they move to another location where the field has changed. This means that unrecoverable energy was spent doing work.

This motor leaves the coils in the same field polarity and potential as they were when they where energized. This means virtually all the energy can be recovered but work was still done!

All the work but without the cost!




Offline specter

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Re: New Magnetic Motor Principal?
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2009, 02:18:36 AM »
Actually it's not!
In any common motor as the coils are energized, they move to another location where the field has changed. This means that unrecoverable energy was spent doing work.

This motor leaves the coils in the same field polarity and potential as they were when they where energized. This means virtually all the energy can be recovered but work was still done!

All the work but without the cost!

No way! You are talking about something like a synchronous motor, maybe a one called a variable reluctance motor. Is it?? The second thing...  mmm.. there is a Lentz law... so you or invetor means accumulating  back-emf??? Is it???

Offline lumen

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Re: New Magnetic Motor Principal?
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2009, 05:04:33 AM »
Quote
The second thing...  mmm.. there is a Lentz law

Yes.... Lenz's law.
Well it does exist in all coils and is what will actually give the back EMF when the coil collapses.
So If I put in "X current" and get back "X current" + work done, then Lenz's law did not actually cause a problem.

The problem with most motors is when the coil collapses, it is in a different field state (lower) then when it was energized. This is typical of the standard motor, it is how work gets done!

This design does not fall into this problem. Lenz's law will assure nearly all the energy applied will be returned on the collapsing field.

Additionally, this motor would not produce current if rotated through the balanced field so it cannot be a generator. If no field changes in the coil, no voltage is generated so no generator. This also means  as a motor, no increase in current with increased load.

Once you understand the concept of operation, you will see several other designs using the symmetrical balanced field that can be built with greater power. Even some ALL magnet designs!

OU? This is only the beginning, I'm sure of it!








Offline gyulasun

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Re: New Magnetic Motor Principal?
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2009, 12:37:17 AM »
Lumen

Thanks for the further comments.  I wonder if you are already in the building state for any of your setups shown?  Unfortunately my circumstances at present are not good for tinkering, only at a later time.

rgds, Gyula

 

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