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Author Topic: another way to fight lorentz  (Read 38429 times)

DreamThinkBuild

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Re: another way to fight lorentz
« Reply #60 on: November 30, 2009, 07:00:01 PM »
@Gravityblock,

Thanks, that is some good information about the voltage decreasing outward from the center (bloch wall) and at the junction between stationary magnet and moving magnet I came up with this interpretation.

In this design the large magnet is only there to keep the smaller magnets in orbit. Instead of riding directly on the stationary magnet have a thin copper ring which is insulated from the center magnet which the smaller magnets ride on. If the bloch wall is where the highest voltage is then maybe a smaller cross section copper ring could be used. Thinner, the better to reduce eddy current losses.

Your free to modify the picture if you see any other ways.

I'm waiting for the ring magnets to arrive, so I can start testing some ideas.

I order 1 of these as the center magnet:
http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=RX038DCB

and some of these for the orbiting magnets:
http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=R636

Airstriker

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Re: another way to fight lorentz
« Reply #61 on: December 02, 2009, 01:33:50 PM »
It's my first post here, so hello to everyone ;)

Ok guys, now some of my thoughts. Why a hell do you want to use a homopolar generator in your original project mr_bojangles ?? First of all there is no lenz drag in homopolar generators just as they are (if there is please tell me where ?), so why to invent a wheel again. There is no sense in it. The problem with homopolar generators is their huge current and low voltage generated. How do you want to utilize a huge current ? Another problem with them are brushes friction and big RPMs needed to make it work. All in all that's why people don't use homopolar generators nowadays (at least I don't really imagine where they would be needed) ;]

That's why you need to use classic coils (I liked a schematic with horseshoe magnets or a halbach array idea).

Another problem with Next generations of your original project are the machanisms making the discs stay upright. Any mechanism which is connected in anyway with the axis of rotation of the main wheel will ruin everything. Note, that in such a connection a lenz drag from the discs will be transfered to the main axis and slow it down as in classic generator. So all in all the best configuration for now is with the coat hanger wire. But hopefully there is something better ;) By the way, I'm also wondering... maybe there is a configuration in which the lenz drag could be used to to make the main wheel go faster ;> That way we would not only cancel the lenz drag but also utilize it ;>

Personally I really like the idea of Mr. Th3Generat0r. I think this can really be able to selfsustain if the rotary speed of the big wheel is big enough (able to keep the ring magnets rotate all way round - which is needed to fully cancel any drag). His frictionless prototype is also really nice.

Also I'm thinking of another setup - pistonlike. But need to think of it a couple of days more.

If I'm wrong at any point just let me know - it's better to know that you are wrong than leave in a dream ;]

mr_bojangles

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Re: another way to fight lorentz
« Reply #62 on: December 03, 2009, 03:16:03 AM »
welcome and greetings

well to be honest the original design wasn't supposed to be an HPG, but its pretty irrelevant

andd to start off, there is a lot of lenz drag on every generator, including HPG's and all other types

lenz drag is induced into whatever mechanism you have that rotates the disc, in a normal set up, its usually a crank or motor, whatever

because the magnet is stationary, it can't give into the lenz force, so all of it is projected into the disc itself

the disc gains its own magnetic field, and opposes turning in the field of the actual magnet

the faster you spin it the harder it becomes to spin essentially

and currently there are no proven methods of using this drag in a beneficial way because no matter which way you push spin or rotate it, the force is always the exact opposite direction


this is the problem with all generators, but the real reason its an issue is because this opposing drag is essentially what is generating electricity in the first place

my original design used couterweights so this force would fight gravity, the problem is most definately in figuring out a way to keep them upright because centripetal force would make the counterweight ineffective at high RPM's

ive never messed with pistons, although i have been wondering about a way to apply this idea to hydraulics


appreciate the words of encouragement


Airstriker

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Re: another way to fight lorentz
« Reply #63 on: December 03, 2009, 10:07:56 AM »
ok please have a look at this document:
http://www.physics.umd.edu/lecdem/outreach/QOTW/arch11/q218unipolar.pdf

In this special case I don't really see any lenz drag - so if in this special case of homopolar generator there is no lenz drag why to build anything different that uses the same principle? This will simple not be OU and hard to utilize as said before.

mr_bojangles

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Re: another way to fight lorentz
« Reply #64 on: December 03, 2009, 02:42:50 PM »
lenz drag will be induced into the rotating magnet,
 in the exact opposite way that the magnet spins

electricity can only be generated from movement, and whatever you spin will end up receiving the majority of lenz drag

if there was a proven method of doing this it would basically be OU by itself, that's why i find it hard to believe someone has figured it out already, especially using just an HPG, and it is what my own mechanism is designed for, a way to generate electricity without having to account for this


Airstriker

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Re: another way to fight lorentz
« Reply #65 on: December 04, 2009, 01:14:31 PM »
I think you have just confused Lorentz law with Lenz law ;] We are talking about different things.
Have a look a this:

"Like all dynamos, the Faraday disc converts kinetic energy to electrical energy. However, unlike all other dynamos, this machine cannot be analysed using Faraday's own law of electromagnetic induction. This law (in its modern form) states that an electric current is induced in a closed electrical circuit when the magnetic flux enclosed by the circuit changes (in either magnitude or direction). However, the circuit in the Faraday disc is parallel to the magnetic field vector and therefore encloses no magnetic flux. Therefore, Faraday's law does not apply to this machine.

Instead, the Lorentz force law is used to explain the machine's behaviour. This law, discovered thirty years after Faraday's death, states that the force on an electron is proportional to the cross product of its velocity and the magnetic flux vector. In geometrical terms, this means that the force is at right-angles to both the velocity (azimuthal) and the magnetic flux (axial), which is therefore in a radial direction. The radial movement of the electron then creates an electric current between the centre of the disc and its rim."

This is a quotation from Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homopolar_generator

So to sum this up - there is absolutely no drag here caused by any of this laws! Please read the provious paper I have posted and you will understand that ;]
So please don't use homopolar generators in your idea as this doesn't make sense ;]

gravityblock

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Re: another way to fight lorentz
« Reply #66 on: December 04, 2009, 01:43:17 PM »
I think you have just confused Lorentz law with Lenz law ;] We are talking about different things.  Have a look a this:

Instead, the Lorentz force law is used to explain the machine's behaviour. This law, discovered thirty years after Faraday's death, states that the force on an electron is proportional to the cross product of its velocity and the magnetic flux vector. In geometrical terms, this means that the force is at right-angles to both the velocity (azimuthal) and the magnetic flux (axial), which is therefore in a radial direction. The radial movement of the electron then creates an electric current between the centre of the disc and its rim."

So please don't use homopolar generators in your idea as this doesn't make sense ;]

It may not make sense to you, but it does make sense to others.  There is a counter torque in the HPG that is proportional to the voltage and current being taken off the disc.  Moving charges create a magnetic field.  This magnetic field from the moving charges is against the magnetic field that induced the moving charges.

Lorenz force law explains the EMF produced in the HPG.  Lenz law explains the force against the EMF produced by lorenz.  You're the one who is confused.  Both laws apply here.  Lorenz and Lenz are not friends.  There is more than one force involved here, thus more than one law to take into consideration.


GB
« Last Edit: December 04, 2009, 02:11:40 PM by gravityblock »

mr_bojangles

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Re: another way to fight lorentz
« Reply #67 on: December 04, 2009, 06:23:36 PM »
apologies on non-specific dialogue, i tend to repeat and use terms of whomever i'm responding to so there is no confusion even if the term might be mixed up, i assumed you weren't aware of the distinction and for ease was using "lenz drag" as a general term of the combined forces of lorentz as well as lenz law, because like GB said you can't really have one without the other as both terms are used to describe similar situations, just different aspects of it

well, if you believe that HPG's are not subject to these forces, then wouldn't you want me to use them? you say not to use them, and also no lenz drag applies, i don't have to believe it but following your logic, isn't it logical i would then use and HPG vs. a conventional multi-pole system that would be subject to the negative forces?

Airstriker

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Re: another way to fight lorentz
« Reply #68 on: December 04, 2009, 08:07:14 PM »
Ok maybe I was wrong (I still need to think of it a bit longer) but anyway there is no sense in using HPGs here. Here is why... HPGs require relative motion between the circuit and the disc under magnetic field inflence or just relative motion between circuit and the rotating magnet (without using additional disc). So where and how would you like to apply the brushes (to the magnet or disc ?) to make your idea work ? If it's the magnet than you don't need a disc. If it's the disc than you don't have any movement between the circuit and the disc (as you plan to always keep it upright). Any other possibilities to get some voltage between the brushes ?

mr_bojangles

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Re: another way to fight lorentz
« Reply #69 on: December 04, 2009, 11:48:49 PM »
So where and how would you like to apply the brushes (to the magnet or disc ?) to make your idea work ? If it's the magnet than you don't need a disc. If it's the disc than you don't have any movement between the circuit and the disc (as you plan to always keep it upright). Any other possibilities to get some voltage between the brushes ?

keeping it upright is key, on the horseshoe version, brushes would be attached to the same mechanism that keeps the magnets upright, thus the relative rotation of the disc to the magnet would induce on the brushes

one would be on the outer rim, the other being the axle of the disc, both brushes fixed on "upright mechanism"

ive said this from the beginning, the original wasn't supposed to be an HPG but that is irrelevent, the key part is the misdirection of the countertorque into another medium that we do not have to account for energy wise

jadaro2600

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Re: another way to fight lorentz
« Reply #70 on: December 05, 2009, 07:45:41 AM »
A homopolar generator is in fact a faraday disk, the modernized version that is, as he did not have the modern magnets that we do, ...

The idea here is that it was Faraday's paradox, not Lenz's.

Frankly, following Newman's ideas makes the situation appear more meaningful...what with the gyroscopic particles and everything.

There have always been arguments about where the reference frame is, and for simplicity it the wire, just for the fact that it's not moving.  I suppose current flows out because it would rather not stay in, it provide a point of exit for the electrons, acquiring it requires sending it back in though, at the center.

This changes however, if you place the magnetic field perpendicular to the axis rather than parallel to the axis, (or through it).  I took two magnets and oriented them so that they were sitting ( diagonally ) one face north up, the other south up, they were attracted at each others rim, I then suspended a copper sheet over them which I had cut into a circle and conducted electricity across the diagonal of the disk.

It spun.

Just as a faraday or homopolar disk would if it had ONE magnet below it, the disk rotates instead with two.  Here is a diagram. Crude as it may be.  It demonstrates the perpendicularity of the forces.  The disk will spin depending upon the path it takes across the magnets, N-S or S-N, etc.


mr_bojangles

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Re: another way to fight lorentz
« Reply #71 on: December 05, 2009, 05:35:52 PM »
very interesting jadaro

did you spin the disc and try to generate anything? there would still be an issue with brushes but it could be applied to my machine

jadaro2600

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Re: another way to fight lorentz
« Reply #72 on: December 05, 2009, 09:15:17 PM »
very interesting jadaro

did you spin the disc and try to generate anything? there would still be an issue with brushes but it could be applied to my machine

I'm afraid I'm lacking a rigid setup to do so, and lacking the tools on top of this, the money as well, otherwise I would do such a setup.  But I'm sure that what you ask will indeed produce a current, however small it may be, the possibility is that it will produce twice the voltage potential as has been mentioned as a standard HPG or Faraday disk.

I've often though that you could simply use roller skate bearings, something round that spins and makes contact with the periphery without much friction.  This is far different than the usual carbon brushes.

The bearings can be acquired cheaply, the disk is an issue for me, and it's size and tolerances are as well.  I'm a fully capable machinist with no tool and no machines,  :'(.

Anyway, I've read that a demonstration with a bearing motor was performed, it functions similarly to the diametric model above, but on multiple smaller scales, the roller bearing would probably not detract from the effects seen here.

EDIT: of course the magnets are stationary in these experiments.

jadaro2600

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Re: another way to fight lorentz
« Reply #73 on: December 05, 2009, 09:19:47 PM »
very interesting jadaro

did you spin the disc and try to generate anything? there would still be an issue with brushes but it could be applied to my machine

On another note, if you try to generate with a radial using a single side of the magnet, and then use a radial to send current back to the axis, it will cancel out the effects, it is symmetrical with regard to this.  The over all effect of the current is seen only by the radial path, and not say, if you were to spiral outward and radial back, the effect would still cancel, it is only the radial path from the axis to the point of brush contact on the outside which causes the rotation.

This is why I performed the experiment in question.

EDIT: ..this setup will work all the same, as the path of the current crosses the magnetic field, the disk will rotate perpendicular.  It is as if to say, that the atoms conducting experience a force in such a way as to compel them to push on their neighbors, as if atoms would rather not conduct electricity.  SO the path is constantly being replaced with new atoms and the point of rotation is at the point where north and south merge in the disk, which I should hope is the logically placed axis of rotation ( center of gravity of the disk ).

mr_bojangles

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Re: another way to fight lorentz
« Reply #74 on: December 06, 2009, 03:42:56 AM »
its ingenious that you use conductive bearings instead of brushes, i don't know why i never thought of that but i would imagine it cuts out on friction a lot

where do you plan on going with your design? im interested to hear it